Massivecraft Pvp - What Is Fun, What Is Not, And What Should Change?

TechPac said:
I actually disagree with you sir, I have seen mods say countless amounts of times and completely stress this fact, that this IS in fact, an RP server. Now they may have changed their views on this now, but until they actually voice it, Im sticking with that fact.
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I disagree, if it was solely rp why is pvp encouraged. In my opinion they are equal on massive by incorporating rp into pvp
 
Commanderkull said:
Well I'm not being told to not pvp and pvp isn't outlawed therefore I take it as encouraged. Also incorporating rp into pvp. You forgot I said that.
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That dosnt mean its encouraged, just means its not against the rules, you are allowed to choose not to RP as well, does that mean the server encourages you not to RP?
 
Mattium_ said:
No, I'm pretty sure a few mods have mentioned it's both and they wish to incorporate both.
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But I have not heard them, and have heard the opposite, there for im disagreeing, im not saying youre wrong, im saying I feel you are. If I am I would certainly hope a mod shall correct me.
 
Yes, I do realize that this server has some pvp components, but the main problem I perceive is that the pvp rarely ever adds anything else to the other components of the server. For example, with building:

Builder: IMMA GOING TO MAKE TEH BEST TOWN EVAHS!
-Makes great town-
Roleplayer: OMGZ TEZ IS BEST TOWNZ EVAHZ! CANZ I ROLEPLAYZ?
Builder: SUREZ YE CANZ! THAT WAY YOU CAN ADD LIFE INTO THE EMPTY HUSK OF A TOWN I CREATED AND GIVE ME SOME SATISFACTION BY FILLING SOME OF THE BOTTUMLESS VOID IN MY HEART.
Roleplayer: Errrr.... okay.....
-Great town naturally forms as roleplayers and builders gather together-

Now with pvp:
Pvper: IMMA GRIND MY SKILLS TO BE TEH BEST SKILLS EVAH!
-Gets all combat skills to 1500-
Pvper: IMMA RAID EVERYONE NOW! MAH ROLEPLAY REASON IS IMMA BANDITZ!
-roleplay settlements get horribly sacked as god-pvper rips through everything in his way-

I mean, think about it. The last war or fight that really added to the roleplay or building aspect of the server was the Imperial War, and that was months ago! Most wars these days just don't have a real positive benefit to roleplay.

Different components on Massivecraft should work together to form something greater than the sum of its parts, instead of tearing away at each other and forcing people to separate it into entirely different sides of the server. Roleplay combat is now simply considered -stab at person's foot-, -dodge-, when it should be things like the Imperial War. There should be bands of vampire hunters roaming around, elves leading wars against orcs for revenge, orcs.... errr.... randomly killing other races? Anyway, my point is that instead of saying "Look, Massivecraft has these different things too, let us do what we want", we should ask ourselves how we can incorporate the separate components of Massivecraft together. When you're pvping, you should ask yourself "how can I twist this war into something truly epic for the server's lore", and vice versa for roleplayers.
 
favoured said:
Yes, I do realize that this server has some pvp components, but the main problem I perceive is that the pvp rarely ever adds anything else to the other components of the server. For example, with building:

Builder: IMMA GOING TO MAKE TEH BEST TOWN EVAHS!
-Makes great town-
Roleplayer: OMGZ TEZ IS BEST TOWNZ EVAHZ! CANZ I ROLEPLAYZ?
Builder: SUREZ YE CANZ! THAT WAY YOU CAN ADD LIFE INTO THE EMPTY HUSK OF A TOWN I CREATED AND GIVE ME SOME SATISFACTION BY FILLING SOME OF THE BOTTUMLESS VOID IN MY HEART.
Roleplayer: Errrr.... okay.....
-Great town naturally forms as roleplayers and builders gather together-

Now with pvp:
Pvper: IMMA GRIND MY SKILLS TO BE TEH BEST SKILLS EVAH!
-Gets all combat skills to 1500-
Pvper: IMMA RAID EVERYONE NOW! MAH ROLEPLAY REASON IS IMMA BANDITZ!
-roleplay settlements get horribly sacked as god-pvper rips through everything in his way-

I mean, think about it. The last war or fight that really added to the roleplay or building aspect of the server was the Imperial War, and that was months ago! Most wars these days just don't have a real positive benefit to roleplay.

Different components on Massivecraft should work together to form something greater than the sum of its parts, instead of tearing away at each other and forcing people to separate it into entirely different sides of the server. Roleplay combat is now simply considered -stab at person's foot-, -dodge-, when it should be things like the Imperial War. There should be bands of vampire hunters roaming around, elves leading wars against orcs for revenge, orcs.... errr.... randomly killing other races? Anyway, my point is that instead of saying "Look, Massivecraft has these different things too, let us do what we want", we should ask ourselves how we can incorporate the separate components of Massivecraft together. When you're pvping, you should ask yourself "how can I twist this war into something truly epic for the server's lore", and vice versa for roleplayers.
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Well that's highly flawed.
When I think PVP, and MCMMO, I think training.
You can't expect to be a skilled swordsman without spending hours training.
 
Well, I wasn't exactly complaining about the time limit, I was saying that the different populations of the server should work together more often to achieve something better.
 
favoured when I pvp that is the last thing I think about, biggest impact was being the first guy with big enough balls to declare war on pulse a long time ago. I like the thought of turning pvp into a server wide event and that's cool. But I like pvp it is the way now but I don't like the rules about pvp.
 
Now then, seeing as I have mostly just said "no" to alot of things that have been said...
A lot of these ideas are rather good ones, but I think that the idea of the skills system of having one skill very good, and making another not so much, say you decide to add magic into pvp somehow, like the lore says, a mage would not be very powerful with weapons, so if people chose to increase their skills as a mage, this would decrease their abilities with physical combat.
Now with the lack of possibility that magic is too be implemented, this might be able to be done with certain weaponry, say a person who focuses on slamming an axe down on someone, their skill with a sword for example would be lower due to it being a weapon more focused on dexterity. This would mean skills would have to have a cap. This would prevent certain players having a never ending rise to more power like mcmmo. Im not saying they cant be good with a sword and not level it up like another skill, but if one were to reach the cap of a certain skill, the cap of another skill would lower.
Now I know one of the reasons mcmmo was so well liked was the competetion of it, the mctops. Well if skills were to have a cap, this would mean something like that wouldnt exist, getting rid of a well liked feature with pvpers. So what if they received rewards somehow instead of an ever increasing power, they want something to show, and most things that get attention like that is on the forums, so perhaps competitions of kills instead? Or something like that? a rewards system or something of recognition in Regalia? Say they are known to be any regular faction signs promoting their skill, or a well known evil faction, signs warning people of daneger.
 
I'm amused and somewhat saddened at the same time that this seems to have spiraled into an "argument" between PvP dedicated players and everyone else...
I think some people need to go back and watch that video about proper video game design again. When dedicated PvPrs smash people with little to no interest in PvP, they get the joys of smashing people and taking their things. But what do the victims get out of it? Rage and frustration the vast majority of the time. (This is entirely different for victims that actually enjoy PvP). That's poor game balance, pure and simple. So while I can understand the PoV of those doing the smashing, you have to try and understand the views of those you're smashing.

Let's switch things up a bit. Every time you want to raid a village (and I mean every single time) you have to show up in character and RP it out with the village, from start to finish, including when you're hiding out in the bushes scouting, giving the village an RP chance to spot you and do something about it. This could take hours of typing. More than hours if the village is really crafty, and you can't just up and walk away unless you're doing it character. So now you're stuck in a drawn out battle of words, something you have no interest in and very possibly outright suck at, but you have to deal with it if you're to have any chance at beating these guys up in the end.
But you came here to PvP with people! Why are they forcing you to RP on a server that's supposed to be about both RP and PvP?? That's no fun at all! But every time you complain about it you're just told it's a part of the server and if you wanna physically PvP go play on a minigame world, or try PvE perhaps. If you don't like it, go play on another server.

Yea, that's kinda how we feel.
 
Lady Julianne said:
If you don't like it, go play on another server.
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I would like to point out, ideally when creating a multiplayer server, this phrase should be the absolute last resort. Ever. From a financial standpoint (you're losing customers) and from a Dev/Player relationship standpoint (you lose respect/loyalty).
Yes sometimes it's unavoidable. But avoiding it should always be attempted.

I suppose this is my opinion on the matter, since I don't have a degree in game design or anything... but there ya go.
 
Lady Julianne
Although your idea about rp'ing raids is very nice, it doesn't work people will just run and hide, then abuse you for attacking a "peaceful" faction until you get bored. Oh and having things taken by raiders would have happened in medieval times, so it could be viewed as rp. You can also as I said previously just surrender if it really is a problem.
 
Possibly a level cap on combat levels on the MCMMO stats? Hell, if you are new then you should be expected you make friends and level up to make a attempt to catch up with everyone. Thats what I did, doing fine now.
 
Background:
I am Premium, and have the 4600 skill points myself.

WAR:
Generally about war, role-playing is often forgotten when war is declared , WAR its often declared because of people getting insulted or is bored that evening, or helping others and then loose items.
Therefore should a WAR have a "activation" fee, and a day/monthly cost, also should a WAR activation have some kind of delay (days) so random bored people just declare WAR just to have fun that night.

Battle and skills:
People will always try to get as many benefits as possible in matter of potions ingame mechanic, races or mcmmo skills.
Just see the people who have played in a few months but has 10,000 skills points in fishing? I don't think they enjoy fishing :-D
Axe is good as armor as worn out which is good for the eco system to get more to mine after a lost armor, or trade with other ress. to get a new set of armor.
Challenge is also that Premium keep everything as they battle for a good word, they have nearly nothing to lose.

Plugin:
Developing you own plugin costs a lot resources from staff, code, test, balance, and to implement.
Using other plugin gives many advantages but also disadvantages, maybe the developer don't have the same agenda as you or have the time to debug a critical error, which could ruin the servers economy etc.

Staff:
They are strict, and sometimes the rules not clear enough, for example removing enemy WAR portals outside your own clam.

Suggest:
War should cost money initiate
War should have a delay (remove random declared just because they are bored)
War should have a fee (day or Monthly)
Skills: Level Cap on skills, (daily or monthly , should remove darkrooms etc
Find a good solution to reset mcmmo skills, both old and new players should have a fair chance.
The reset could be some kind of converting skills point to other ress, or downscale , like If I have 4600 kills point I would have my conveted to 460 or 46.
Reduce mcmmo skills, it will keep make a fair battle for all
 
moloon said:
Background:
I am Premium, and have the 4600 skill points myself.

WAR:
Generally about war, role-playing is often forgotten when war is declared , WAR its often declared because of people getting insulted or is bored that evening, or helping others and then loose items.
Therefore should a WAR have a "activation" fee, and a day/monthly cost, also should a WAR activation have some kind of delay (days) so random bored people just declare WAR just to have fun that night.
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Ya know, it works in EVE Online. Declaring war costs Isk and lasts for (I think) 2 weeks. After that you have to pay again to continue the war or stop paying and have it end. (or end it manually)
We could totally do something similar. It'd make sure that the warring factions are going to pick targets worth spending their silver on to attack.

Usually a war would end in EVE by the attacker continuing to Re-war every period until the defenders gave in to a demand (generally either a large Isk sum or a territory, or a personal grudge of some kind) but unless the warring corp had a different income, they'd always have to weigh the benefit of keeping the war going over a long period. Some defending corps would actually just wait it out, since they didn't lose any money, and it'd slowly bankrupt the attackers. Though that option is VERY boring because you're basically just sitting in base for weeks. ((I think it would also cost more to initiate the war the bigger your corp was, but I don't remember on that one. It makes sense though as logistics are more complex the larger a group is, plus it would help keep massive factions from preying on tiny ones because they wouldn't be worth the cost. Whereas small factions could handle the cost of fighting poorer factions. Granted that wouldn't make any difference as per mcmmo skill levels, but many don't feel that's a problem anyway.))
 
Okay, I'm going to take my previous thoughts, and further concise them, as well as add in a few ideas I hadn't mentioned before. To make PvP more fun, and more tied to RP it might be a good idea to...

-Make war declarations formal. This would allow players to know WHY they are being attacked, WHO is attacking them, and WHAT their demands are. I believe this must be a priority as opposed to an option. (Possibly have a courier send the war declaration to the targeted faction.

-Allow time BEFORE attacks. This would allow both factions to be ready for open combat, or allow peace talks before actual WAR is necessary. I can't mention HOW many times my faction has been attacked AFTER the enemy had already entered the populated area which lead to us being killed before we could even ready ourselves. I believe that stating a time period (Such as 3-5 MINECRAFT days) would allow ample time for both sides to prepare for peace or war.

-Bandits and Pirates may ONLY attack in the Wilderness setting, NOT in factioned land. From an RP standpoint, bandits would stay far away from heavily populated areas to avoid the risk of being captured.

-MCMMO, I think should only be removed IF AND ONLY IF the trait system is a better system (This would take some time to test mind you).

-Peaceful factions SHOULD be a possibility, it allows the builders to do what THEY love, without worrying about taking shelter every five minutes from attackers.

I realize that there are possibly a few of these things that other players mentioned, and I give them all the credit for the things they have mentioned.
 
it should stay the same if mcmmo is removed i know most payed members will stop playing it is not unfair to non prems and people with low stats they can train like we all did to get to where we are now.
 
TechPac said:
But again, this is not the real world, it is a medieval fantasy server. Small settlements are not just villages, could be something meant to be secluded like a tiny witches cult or something like that.
For example, say someone wanted to create a small settlement of frostmane, unless I am wrong, frostmane are rather undomesticated creatures, things like these would not associated with something like an empire or have many allies since they wouldnt normally socialize with other civilizations. It just dosnt fit with some peoples RP's and in an RP aspect, a case like this really wouldnt make sense RPwise.
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It's not an valid reason is my eyes, if you don't want to socialize with others simply keep hidden. I see no reason why this small frostmorne faction would be invurnable just becouse they don't want to be conquered or destroyed. A end of wars would be healthy for the server.
 
The way I see things about this thread. Basically mcmmo is not op because everyone is able to train it and get their skills up to the very top without having to pay. The only thing I see boring about pvp is that non premiums cannot wear diamond armor. A solution to this would be, that will still cause premiums to pay, is maybe only premiums can wear enchanted diamond armor. Another thing about removing mcmmo is that this will infuriate a good amount of players. And if this server would go to all role play like I know a staff member has tried to do, there would be no point in paying for premium. I have really never seen someone who only role plays who is premium. Just my view on things.
 
I think the only problem is that nobody teaches the poor nublets that join how to fight, and then they go off trying to be a huge power. Personally, I think the best way to combat this is to bring back treasure hunter- but mabye a bit nerfed- and re-enable god apples, but make them uncraftable somehow and only enable them to be gotten via, say, an instance.
 
Laach said:
-snip-
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You've got your damages wrong, a Diamond sword does a base of 8 damage. 1 heart is equal to 2 damage. So a diamond sword does 4 hearts per hit to the unarmored foe. A strength potions increase should be a total of 28.8 damage, or 14.4 hearts. Then if you fight someone wearing diamond armor, you do a base of 5.76 damage, or 2.88 hearts (which is just 2 hearts). Which is much better than the 1 damage, or half heart you do regularly with a diamond sword to diamond armor, but not as OP as some people make it out to be. The use of potions to combat high MCMMO is brilliant. Because someone with really low MCMMO can put a buttload of buffs on themselves and then take on someone with several hundred more levels in MCMMO combat skills. So if you can't hold your own, acquire some long regen and strength 2 pots and then, if you suck at PVP, try to build some archer towers in your base when you aren't fighting to hide yourselves and snipe at your opposition. While they may ender pear up to you, that pacifist falses them, and takes away a signifigant amount of hearts. It is at that time you would want to tear into them with a sword, axe, or your fists whilst under the influence of a strength potion. Because you just might win. Especially if you have friends in the tower with you. You'll kill the foolish raider before he can kill all three of you.
Also, make traps as has been suggested before. Traps are beautiful inventions so that big mean raiders don't get to do whatever they want.
 
Mcmmo needs to stay as i think it is a huge part of massivecraft. Also asking cayorion to make a new skills plugin would take to much time away from other projects he has. (my opinion)
 
Commanderkull said:
Mcmmo needs to stay as i think it is a huge part of massivecraft. Also asking cayorion to make a new skills plugin would take to much time away from other projects he has. (my opinion)
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He's already MAKING it from what I understand, it's going to happen, the issue is whether or not it will work.
 
PVP is boring because:
  • Everyone who fights is either a premium in enchanted diamond armor or the rare non prem in iron leaving no variety on the battlefield
  • The lower tiered armor is useless against any attack because of the first reason.
  • There is no downfall in wearing armor that deflects almost everything and weighs nothing.
PVP can be fixed by:
  • Adding weight to armor by giving a sleight slowness effect/speed reduction for every piece of iron and diamond armor peices a player wears, giving the lighter armors(leather and chain) purpose. While this may sound unfair for the people in heavy armors, this gives horses a use for those heavily armored knights to counter those lightweight archers running around them in circles.
  • Another idea would be to have hunger run out faster in diamond and iron armors that slightly increases for every armor piece worn so that the knights would have to stop to eat more often.
  • Maybe having your acrobatics level from MCMMO lessen the slowness effect depending on the level if slowing them is too extreme.
The outcome:
  • People in light armors and heavy armors on the battlefield giving more variety and adding more strategy when it comes to war.
  • Premiums would be less OP as they would actually have a debuff when wearing diamond armor that never breaks and they will never lose from dying.
  • More realism, you don't see people in 100 lb armor sprinting as fast as someone wearing clothing
  • If a premium doesn't have a horse, they can bring backup, creating more realism as one person can't just overrun a city unless they have a party of mercenaries with them.
P.S. Maybe have gold armor weigh nothing so it actually has a purpose as a skirmishing armor. Easy to get good enchants and you won't get slowed down with the disadvantage of its very low durability. This is just a suggestion to make gold useful in this type of situation and does not need to be implemented.

MonMarty I wouldnt mind hearing your opinion on this suggestion.
 
I actually really think slowing down armored people would work, and be accurate. This allows unarmored people to prance around and run away at the tax of not having as good defense, and super-players who always want armor would slow down, and be brought down a little bit.
 
Smexitalian said:
PVP is boring because:
  • Everyone who fights is either a premium in enchanted diamond armor or the rare non prem in iron leaving no variety on the battlefield
  • The lower tiered armor is useless against any attack because of the first reason.
  • There is no downfall in wearing armor that deflects almost everything and weighs nothing.
PVP can be fixed by:

  • Adding weight to armor by giving a sleight slowness effect for every piece of iron and diamond armor peices a player wears, giving the lighter armors(leather and chain) purpose. While this may sound unfair for the people in heavy armors, this gives horses a use for those heavily armored knights to counter those lightweight archers running around them in circles.
  • Another idea would be to have hunger run out faster in diamond and iron armors that slightly increases for every armor piece worn so that the knights would have to stop to eat more often.
  • Maybe having your acrobatics level from MCMMO lessen the slowness effect depending on the level if slowing them is too extreme.
The outcome:

  • People in light armors and heavy armors on the battlefield giving more variety and adding more strategy when it comes to war.
  • Premiums would be less OP as they would actually have a debuff when wearing diamond armor that never breaks and they will never lose from dying.
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even though this is a disadvantage for me i actually like the idea, just to let you know the reason why we get high axes is to smash armor.
 
Also, to deal with Massive armor- Bleed, serraded strikes, and fire aspect, then switch to axes. It works really well. The system is pretty balanced when you know how to use it. Anyway, the combat bonuses cap out around 1000ish, other than the special ability (i.e. serraded strikes time) don't cap. Though I think on massive it does, I know otherwise it doesnt. ._. (245s serraded strikes... ._. So scary..)
The problem isnt the plugin, it really isnt even the gear. The problem is the players. The players get taught some very interestingly wrong about PVP. Like, that 600+ Axes can beat anything and everything, or raising one skill to the insane heights makes you godlike. Not true. What newbies interested in PVP need to learn is how to fight. Most people don't know. Battle isnt all about enchants and skills. Because if you put a spamclicker who only moves in a straight line Massive Armor and give him a god axe and 1000 axes, he's an easy target for someone in the 100-200 range, just because he doesnt know how to manuever. Someone who can manuever and has a fireaspect sword can take down someone in massive armor easy. Especially with higher swords, because of bleed. (Counterattack helps too, for when you get hit.)
Massive PVP is a pretty decent system, it could go for some balancing so new players have a bit easier of a time (see my post in the other Massive PVP thread, the one that Marty started) The players, in my opinion, are the problem. They don't learn how to adapt to the mechanics like they should, they just complain, and then try the same thing that they failed with the time previous.
 

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