Archived Don't Add Mcmmo To The New Server.

[Proudbucket]

This suggestion has been made but I open discussion in light of recent events.
I tag @Game as discussion might be relevant for them.
Please be civil while discussing.

Suggestion:
- Don't add MCMMO to the new server.
- Test the server without MCMMO, if it works keep it without it.

Why:
1) MCMMO is problematic. Massive disabled most MCMMO features.

2) Some features have small effect in game (sword/axe skill effect was reduced).

3) There are features were discouraged or looked down upon (e.g. mcmmo potions).

4) Other MCMMO features cause lag and strain server resources (e.g. pickaxe, shovel abilities).

5) Grinding is not fun, less so for people that need to do it all over again.

6) Managing a plugin that has potential to break the game/economy adds extra work to and already overloaded staff.

7) The suggestion is not permanent, MCMMO can be latter added to the game if decided.

Overall I feel the effect of MCMMO in the server is more negative than positive and it would be worth a shot to have the server without this plugin. We have a new golden chance to start again and I urge staff to use it and not include this very flawed plugin.

 

[Winterless]

I'm uh

I'm gonna be real with you fam

This... this is not a good idea.

1. MCMMO Config can all be saved across to the new server, i.e. everything that was there before to prevent a destroyed economy (GLARES AT FISHING) will still remain. Thus, "management" becomes a non-issue.
2. Grind's being worked on. The PvP Thinktank's got some ideas about how to make it more bearable. Besides, grinding is good, if it's actually grinding with a purpose and with a clear goal. And that's what I think a lot of players are excited about for this world deletion, me included.
3. "Other MCMMO features cause lag and strain server resources" Honestly? I've never seen evidence of that happening in my 4 years on the server. I've had people (cough Traxex cough) skullsplit for 3 minutes outside of a base and the server wouldn't lag much (beyond what it already was doing back in the day which was about as pretty as an elephant's rear end lemme tell you that).
4. "Massive disabled most MCMMO features." I don't think that's true either. I can't think of many abilities that were actually removed by Massive, other than Arcane Salvage and the broken ridiculous MCMMO fishing.
5. "Some features have small effect in game." MCMMO has a BIG effect ingame. MCMMO Repair makes PvP actually viable in the long run, and serrated strikes/skullsplit from swords and axes respectively are a good way to even the odds when you're outnumbered. As well as the fact that y'know...
Axes are actually useless for PvP without MCMMO

 

[ZiHAMMER]

Delete mcmmo.

 

[Proudbucket]

I'm uh
3. "Other MCMMO features cause lag and strain server resources" Honestly? I've never seen evidence of that happening in my 4 years on the server. I've had people (cough Traxex cough) skullsplit for 3 minutes outside of a base and the server wouldn't lag much (beyond what it already was doing back in the day which was about as pretty as an elephant's rear end lemme tell you that).

Click to shrink...

The lag part is easy to test. Just activate the pickaxe/shovel ability and mine blocks. You will notice that often the server fails to register some blocks breaking, you will end up with false blocks, air bubbles, light glitches and you will lag a bit.

This is a known problem of minecraft design that is aggravated by mcmmo. Every time a block is destroyed light levels need to be updated for all nearby blocks, adjacent blocks update their state, an item entity is generated and data needs to be sent to all nearby players. On normal mining speeds the server is usually able to cope with this.
When you increase mining speed to insane levels, as with mcmmo abilities, the server lags.

Please check this! don't take my word for it! Stress test the server!
Go in peak playtime and ask two or three of your friends to use the pickaxe/shovel ability in any illuminated cave around the same time while you pvp in the same world.

 

[Winterless]

The lag part is easy to test. Just activate the pickaxe/shovel ability and mine blocks. You will notice that often the server fails to register some blocks breaking, you will end up with false blocks, air bubbles, light glitches and you will lag a bit.

This is a known problem of minecraft design that is aggravated by mcmmo. Every time a block is destroyed light levels need to be updated for all nearby blocks, adjacent blocks update their state, an item entity is generated and data needs to be sent to all nearby players. On normal mining speeds the server is usually able to cope with this.
When you increase mining speed to insane levels, as with mcmmo abilities, the server lags.

Please check this! don't take my word for it! Stress test the server!
Go in peak playtime and ask two or three of your friends to use the pickaxe/shovel ability in any illuminated cave around the same time while you pvp in the same world.

Click to shrink...

I understand that lag, but what I don't think is that it causes significant enough lag for the server to be affected.

 

[grizenator]

pvp mcmmo levels should only be gained when dealing damage to players. Only issue i see with this is the farming of newbies and your own faction members. Possible solution is that they must be wearing diamond armour for it to count? Most new people around the spawns wont have it and it will be pretty expensive to fix after the reset

 

[Zacatero]

pvp mcmmo levels should only be gained when dealing damage to players. Only issue i see with this is the farming of newbies and your own faction members. Possible solution is that they must be wearing diamond armour for it to count? Most new people around the spawns wont have it and it will be pretty expensive to fix after the reset

Click to shrink...

Assuming this is possible (remember mcmmo isn't a massive developed plugin) then I'd love to see this

 

[Winterless]

pvp mcmmo levels should only be gained when dealing damage to players. Only issue i see with this is the farming of newbies and your own faction members. Possible solution is that they must be wearing diamond armour for it to count? Most new people around the spawns wont have it and it will be pretty expensive to fix after the reset

Click to shrink...

...
Why?

You do realise how slow you gain MCMMO from players, right?

The grind will be good
trust

 

[MonMarty]

I think MCMMO is an experience you get that is layered into activities many players will already be pursuing, I.E pvp, grinding mobs for bone meal & spider eyes & Regals, running around and harvesting items. It makes sense that this additional layer provides more gameplay entertainment to already existing tasks. The leveling experience has always been an identity aspect of Massive. It would just feel weird without it.

 

[Proudbucket]

SNIP.

Click to shrink...

Leveling up is a great experience in games like Diablo or WOW. Not so in mcmmo.
The plugin has a design problem: doing a repetitive and boring action is often optimal and rewarded.

I beg you, do not reward players for standing in front of a cactus for hours to no end.
Reward players for successful challenging raids, for entertaining other players, completing quests or for drawing something beautiful. Please, pretty please... do not reward jumping from a ladder like an idiot the whole day to train acrobatics. Really, the idea of having to grind to be at the level of other players is off putting.

Do not rush to install mcmmo. Consider the options and latter if you still think it is needed it can be added.
Once mcmmo is added it is difficult if not impossible to remove.

 

[Winterless]

Leveling up is a great experience in games like Diablo or WOW. Not so in mcmmo.
The plugin has a design problem: doing a repetitive and boring action is often optimal and rewarded.

I beg you, do not reward players for standing in front of a cactus for hours to no end.
Reward players for successful challenging raids, for entertaining other players, completing quests or for drawing something beautiful. Please, pretty please... do not reward jumping from a ladder like an idiot the whole day to train acrobatics. Really, the idea of having to grind to be at the level of other players is off putting.

Do not rush to install mcmmo. Consider the options and latter if you still think it is needed it can be added.
Once mcmmo is added it is difficult if not impossible to remove.

Click to shrink...

I'm honestly fine with grinding acrobatics and repair and swords, as long as the grind actually gets somewhere and doesn't take 50 million years to go up a level. How would you train MCMMO through "entertaining players" or "drawing something beautiful"? How do you quantify either of those things?

 

[ZiHAMMER]

I'm honestly fine with grinding acrobatics and repair and swords, as long as the grind actually gets somewhere and doesn't take 50 million years to go up a level. How would you train MCMMO through "entertaining players" or "drawing something beautiful"? How do you quantify either of those things?

Click to shrink...

1 mob = 50 levels.

 

[Winterless]

1 mob = 50 levels.

Click to shrink...

A bold statement

Risky, but I like it

You've got guts kid

 

[Conflee]

The lag part is easy to test. Just activate the pickaxe/shovel ability and mine blocks. You will notice that often the server fails to register some blocks breaking, you will end up with false blocks, air bubbles, light glitches and you will lag a bit.

This is a known problem of minecraft design that is aggravated by mcmmo. Every time a block is destroyed light levels need to be updated for all nearby blocks, adjacent blocks update their state, an item entity is generated and data needs to be sent to all nearby players. On normal mining speeds the server is usually able to cope with this.
When you increase mining speed to insane levels, as with mcmmo abilities, the server lags.

Click to shrink...

Thats an issue unrelated to server lag, all servers big or small have it. Its a Minecraft bug, called Ghost Blocks, which are actually fixed 100% in 1.13 so this is no longer an issue.

 

[Mecharic]

I like the idea of MCMMO only leveling when used on players or with actual game activity, if that can be implemented. Nothing quite as discouraging as the knowledge that the only way to PvP safely is to mindlessly do the same thing over and over again for over 20 hours. Especially for people who are more inclined towards creativity-oriented activities (building, roleplay, exploration). Having someone who built a massive castle be easily decimated by someone who jumped off a ladder a lot is... well, not very fun or immersive. (Yes I know I'm simplifying grinding, but the point still stands).

 

[Proudbucket]

How would you train MCMMO through "entertaining players" or "drawing something beautiful"?

Click to shrink...

You are missunderstanding my words.
The proposal is not to give mcmmo points based on alternative methods.
My proposal is to keep the server without mcmmo.

I say that the server should not reward players for doing something boring and repetitive (mcmmo grinding).
Modifying the plugin so that it would encourage fun play would be cool but that would take too much work. That is probably not worth the effort.

 

[Winterless]

I like the idea of MCMMO only leveling when used on players or with actual game activity, if that can be implemented. Nothing quite as discouraging as the knowledge that the only way to PvP safely is to mindlessly do the same thing over and over again for over 20 hours. Especially for people who are more inclined towards creativity-oriented activities (building, roleplay, exploration). Having someone who built a massive castle be easily decimated by someone who jumped off a ladder a lot is... well, not very fun or immersive. (Yes I know I'm simplifying grinding, but the point still stands).

Click to shrink...

You can PvP just fine without MCMMO Stats. I was literally pvping today on an account with zero stats on anything (because of Rank2 powers on my main), and I did fine.

"Having someone who built a massive castle be easily decimated by someone who jumped off a ladder a lot is... well, not very fun or immersive"
Having someone who built a massive castle =/= being good at PvP. There have been plenty of people who grinded out high stats (cough 13k axes cough) who weren't particularly great or threatening at PvP. Skill still matters more than everything else in PvP.

 

[Winterless]

You are missunderstanding my words.
The proposal is not to give mcmmo points based on alternative methods.
My proposal is to keep the server without mcmmo.

I say that the server should not reward players for doing something boring and repetitive (mcmmo grinding).
Modifying the plugin so that it would encourage fun play would be cool but that would take too much work. That is probably not worth the effort.

Click to shrink...

1. Boring is subjective
2. It wouldn't be classified as a grind if it wasn't in some way repetitive. Unless you're saying that grinding in general is bad, in which case I don't think you played at the server's peak or talked to someone who did, when grinding was necessary and everyone did it.

 

[Mecharic]

You can PvP just fine without MCMMO Stats. I was literally pvping today on an account with zero stats on anything (because of Rank2 powers on my main), and I did fine.

"Having someone who built a massive castle be easily decimated by someone who jumped off a ladder a lot is... well, not very fun or immersive"
Having someone who built a massive castle =/= being good at PvP. There have been plenty of people who grinded out high stats (cough 13k axes cough) who weren't particularly great or threatening at PvP. Skill still matters more than everything else in PvP.

Click to shrink...

Then why keep MCMMO? If it doesn't have any major effect aside from axe use in PvP why keep it? If skill is all that matters just find a way o give axes damage and be done with MCMMO entirely... You can't have MCMMO be needed AND functionally irrelevant.

 

[Winterless]

Then why keep MCMMO? If it doesn't have any major effect aside from axe use in PvP why keep it? If skill is all that matters just find a way o give axes damage and be done with MCMMO entirely... You can't have MCMMO be needed AND functionally irrelevant.

Click to shrink...

1. Groupfights
2. Functions outside of PvP (I.e. herbalism, repair, mining, woodcutting, etc...)
3. Combat variety
4. Skill "mattering more than everything else" =/= "All that matters"
5. Nuance
6. Because things like Archery make bows viable
7. Because people much prefer playing on an McMMO server than a non-McMMO one.

 

[grizenator]

without mcmmo axes are worthless, there will be alot more armour in the economy

 

[Conflee]

I prefer MCMMO to be honest. As long as it can be tweaked with ease by staff now, which it will be able to be, there is much less chance for abuse with it. It just adds a nice background layer to the game. Game little perks, some utility for things that are normally useless, and proper incentive to have large farms other than just to have a billion of every crop like most Vanilla experiences give.

It doesnt have enough of an impact on PVP to make or break it, but it has enough to add a layer to things, just like it does the more survival/passive aspects.

 

[Proudbucket]

Most people here are not defending grinding. I'm yet to see someone claiming that they had lots of fun standing in front of a cactus for hours to no end or repeatedly climbing and falling from a stair like an idiot.

What people defend are the abilities and in some of those cases I can agree with them. Some abilities bring something to the game. The question that comes up is: if we don't enjoy grinding, why have it? why not make it incredibly easy to max levels? Why not start with max mcmmo xp? Or even more, why not use traits that do the same as mcmmo skills?

 

[MonMarty]

I think for me it comes down to "I lose more players with the threat of deleting MCMMO, than with the threat of keeping it". So the decision is easily made. I am not in the habit of (always) telling players what they should and should not enjoy.

 

[Zacatero]

What people defend are the abilities and in some of those cases I can agree with them. Some abilities bring something to the game. The question that comes up is: if we don't enjoy grinding, why have it? why not make it incredibly easy to max levels? Why not start with max mcmmo xp? Or even more, why not use traits that do the same as mcmmo skills?

Click to shrink...

It's not the skills people like, it's the fact that they got them. It's something you have to achieve. It's absolutely no fun if you are just given them, or if it's extremely easy.. if you have a cool ability and I ask you how, and you tell me I have to go jump down stairs for two days straight? I might not want to do it, but at least I know that in order to get that cool ability I have to do that stupid thing.

 

[lunarepiphany]

I think it's cool you made a thread about this! It's always really nice to see players being active and putting forth their suggestions. It helps us to create an active and vocal community, and I really appreciate it. That said, I think I'm jumping on board with most of the other folks here to say that I don't think removing McMMO is a good idea.
The reason why, I think, falls under #5 - "Grinding is not fun, less so for people that need to do it all over again."
I myself often listen to podcasts or music while fishing and chat with my faction, or join a Voice Call with some friends while I grind unarmed. It very well might not sound fun to you, or even to anyone else - but what matters is the choice. I was able to do that, I didn't just aimlessly go mining. I think the other issues like lag have already been discussed, but I just wanted to throw in my ten cents on it. The fact McMMO is an option for some players, the fact it doesn't require grinding, is what's appealing. Why get rid of a feature that nobody has to use?
PS: PM me for hella good podcast recommendations while you grind McMMO stats in the new world if you'd like! c:

 

[TakeDown__]

Most people here are not defending grinding. I'm yet to see someone claiming that they had lots of fun standing in front of a cactus for hours to no end or repeatedly climbing and falling from a stair like an idiot.

What people defend are the abilities and in some of those cases I can agree with them. Some abilities bring something to the game. The question that comes up is: if we don't enjoy grinding, why have it? why not make it incredibly easy to max levels? Why not start with max mcmmo xp? Or even more, why not use traits that do the same as mcmmo skills?

Click to shrink...

Maybe I'm just weird, but I enjoyed grinding, at least the reward I got from it. I myself grinded to 2k repair (not long after it got nerfed into oblivion ) the act itself, wasn't fun no. But that can be fixed, like hopping in teamspeak and talk with friends and thats exactly what I did and it made it worth it and damn I was happy when I got it. I could finally fix my own armour and not have to beg some of my friends to do it.

Plus bragging rights.

 

[CnocBride]

mcMMO sadly is here to stay on the server. I'm going to reject this for now, we can take a review of mcMMO in the future if there are big calls for it.