Could Massive Pvp Ever Be What It Was?

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Mecharic said:
You can't force people to do it though. Oh you can make rules that force factions to either defend or surrender, but that doesn't mean people will surrender. People may start charging out without any items just to say "we were defending!" without any risk. Or they could just not use factions or survival at all. Or they could go to a different server. Options aplenty with the internet. So you need to incentivize them, rather than forcing them, to fight. One way to do so would be something that makes defense possible - right now, most larger faction have about as good a chance again Raptum, Deldrimor, or SunKiss as I do of inheriting GetHelps wallet (ei: none). That doesn't lend itself to trying very well.

Sorry that I'm not more helpful, it's not easy to get everyone on-board with something that empowers other people over them. It's like food stamps - people don't want to have others get what they worked for, even if it would help all involved.
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Well something needs to change because MassiveCraft PvP and wars in their current state basically feels like continously bashing your head into a wall - aka why no major PvP factions play consistently anymore - aka why I don't play consistently anymore. In terms of RP on this server, it's like getting into a fight with someone and having them say they "dodged" every single attack you throw and they walk away fine every time.
 
BenRekt said:
Well if you go back to the very first point I made, it was about the fact that people need to be incentivized with not having to surrender due to their unwillingness or inability to defend themselves. What is the point of raiding OR defending in a war that literally never has a conclusion? If wars and fights had actual endings, it would bring back the competitive nature between factions that this server once had.
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I think the point is, not everyone wants to be in a war. People use factions for reasons other than pvp.

Then there are those like me, that only wish to fight at certain times. If someone comes to my faction while I'm busy building something, I'm not gonna come out and fight just to make them happy.
 
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BenRekt said:
Well something needs to change because MassiveCraft PvP and wars in their current state basically feels like continously bashing your head into a wall - aka why no major PvP factions play consistently anymore - aka why I don't play consistently anymore. In terms of RP on this server, it's like getting into a fight with someone and having them say they "dodged" every single attack you throw and they walk away fine every time.
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Yeah I know. So the question becomes: "What incentive can we give to get casuals & non-PvPers to defend their factions again?"

Got any ideas? I've already posted all of mine (mainly in balancing the playing field so it's actually possible to defend a claim).
 
Celeras said:
There aren't enough automatic weapo


I think the point is, not everyone wants to be in a war. People use factions for reasons other than pvp.

Then there are those like me, that only wish to fight at certain times. If someone comes to my faction while I'm busy building something, I'm not gonna come out and fight just to make them happy.
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This is exactly why a complicated issue like this is so extremely difficult to tackle. At one end, I think that people who don't have the necessary fighters / defenses / etc. should be taking advantage of the surrender feature this server offers. On the other, I see people like you, and I feel like a dickhead who is just coming over to stomp on your sand castle because you can't defend yourself. Either way you side, I think that there needs to be a way to make wars come to a close, because as I said they are meaningless. How we do and go about deciding that is something that we have yet to come up with.
 
Mecharic said:
Yeah I know. So the question becomes: "What incentive can we give to get casuals & non-PvPers to defend their factions again?"

Got any ideas? I've already posted all of mine (mainly in balancing the playing field so it's actually possible to defend a claim).
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The threat of actually having to surrender should be the incentive to defend, what else are we going to offer, a cookie? Defenders already have the advantage in the fact that they can run back inside of their base and re-arm, it's just that it's not an even playing field due to things like McMMO.

Also,
BenRekt said:
This is exactly why a complicated issue like this is so extremely difficult to tackle. At one end, I think that people who don't have the necessary fighters / defenses / etc. should be taking advantage of the surrender feature this server offers. On the other, I see people like you, and I feel like a dickhead who is just coming over to stomp on your sand castle because you can't defend yourself. Either way you side, I think that there needs to be a way to make wars come to a close, because as I said they are meaningless. How we do and go about deciding that is something that we have yet to come up with.
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Mecharic said:
Yeah I know. So the question becomes: "What incentive can we give to get casuals & non-PvPers to defend their factions again?"

Got any ideas? I've already posted all of mine (mainly in balancing the playing field so it's actually possible to defend a claim).
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BenRekt said:
This is exactly why a complicated issue like this is so extremely difficult to tackle. At one end, I think that people who don't have the necessary fighters / defenses / etc. should be taking advantage of the surrender feature this server offers. On the other, I see people like you, and I feel like a dickhead who is just coming over to stomp on your sand castle because you can't defend yourself. Either way you side, I think that there needs to be a way to make wars come to a close, because as I said they are meaningless. How we do and go about deciding that is something that we have yet to come up with.
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Someone suggested somewhere that factions should have a 'flag' somewhere in their territory that attackers have to come in and steal to win and get rewards. If there were an /f war <faction> command, there could be a timer for attackers to steal the flag. If they don't manage to steal it in time, defenders win and get the rewards.

The problem is any system like this could be abused. So there needs to be some thought put into preventing that.

Obviously, you would only be able to /f war someone once a week or so. And shouldn't be able to do it to newly created factions or 1 person factions.
 
Celeras said:
Someone suggested somewhere that factions should have a 'flag' somewhere in their territory that attackers have to come in and steal to win and get rewards. If there were an /f war <faction> command, there could be a timer for attackers to steal the flag. If they don't manage to steal it in time, defenders win and get the rewards.

The problem is any system like this could be abused. So there needs to be some thought put into preventing that.
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I don't think you could really make a plug-in for this, which makes it much more difficult, for players and staff.

Maybe a reason to bring PvP staff back, possibly?
 
BenRekt said:
The threat of actually having to surrender should be the incentive to defend, what else are we going to offer, a cookie? Defenders already have the advantage in the fact that they can run back inside of their base and re-arm, it's just that it's not an even playing field due to things like McMMO.

Also,
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I don't mean a "do it or else" I mean a "do it to gain" type of incentive. Right now there's little to no chance that people defending their base will be able to win, let alone keep their gear. Thus, anyone who isn't a full-time PvPer is going to ignore it and ignore surrender and literally ignore PvP entirely. You need incentive (an offering or reason) to PvP, not an incentive to surrender.
 
BenRekt said:
I don't think you could really make a plug-in for this, which makes it much more difficult, for players and staff.

Maybe a reason to bring PvP staff back, possibly?
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I think its possible. You could do something like '/f banner' (since /f flag is already a thing) while holding a flag in your hand. Then placing the flag would register it as the factions 'war flag' and the only breakable block in the territory. Similar things were done with towny.
 
Mecharic said:
I don't mean a "do it or else" I mean a "do it to gain" type of incentive. Right now there's little to no chance that people defending their base will be able to win, let alone keep their gear. Thus, anyone who isn't a full-time PvPer is going to ignore it and ignore surrender and literally ignore PvP entirely. You need incentive (an offering or reason) to PvP, not an incentive to surrender.
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That's a fantastic point actually. You're right, and the way we would probably need to go about this is by making it so the defenders can actually win and force the RAIDERS to leave or surrender. That way, not only do defenders get an advantage, but they also have a chance to win, not just to lose.
 
Celeras said:
I think its possible. You could do something like '/f banner' (since /f flag is already a thing) while holding a flag in your hand. Then placing the flag would register it as the factions 'war flag' and the only breakable block in the territory. Similar things were done with towny.
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I don't think taking flags, or anything like that, will ever work much less make its way onto the server.
 
BenRekt said:
Easy to abuse, not that realistic and would lead to newer players and factions getting absolutely destroyed to the point where they would probably want to quit.
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I edited my original post to account for this.

you would only be able to /f war someone once a week or so. And shouldn't be able to do it to newly created factions or 1 person factions.
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Not that realistic? Yeah I suppose but neither is a lot of things in this game lol
 
jquaile said:
Fukin' Shakespeare this one.
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Jquaile, I don't like you. I am not a PvPer. I wouldn't be seriously bothered by the complete death of PvP on MassiveCraft - I really wouldn't. I'd miss some of the people who leave (@Tokugawryuu, @Nitesho, @jes_) but for the most part I'd see no serious issues with it. Survival would be PvE and I'd be cool with that. Hell - it would likely be an improvement, finally allowing roleplayers, builders, and explorers to function without a great deal of fear or worry that they'll be killed while doing their own thing. Survival worlds would become more active if all PvP died. And yet here I am, trying to work with you guys on how to get PvP back to life.

And you, you have nothing productive to add whatsoever. You make it difficult to even get the willpower to care. You, and those like you, are the reason staff don't pay attention to PvP as much. You shout down anyone with a different opinion, you block out everything you disagree with, you ignore everyone and anyone who doesn't act, talk, and think like you do. PvP will die, and it will die because players like you shut down every attempt by others to explain themselves, explain their reasons for disliking PvP, and offer ideas as to how to make it more appealing.

Here's what most non-PvPers think you the PvP Community right now:

NonpvPers.png
NonpvPers2.png

Do you understand why nobody wants to help you yet? Do you understand why survival has died yet? Do you understand how toxic and acidic your "community" is towards both itself and to others?

Because that's the biggest roadblock. Mechanics are tolerable. Even losing items is tolerable. But the community? The community is toxic to those who encounter it, acidic towards all those who aren't considered part of it. I remember when raiders complimented the bases they were raiding. When they appreciated those who came out and fought them. When they even took care not to be needlessly rude or cruel. That died a long time ago, and PvP has been dying ever since.
 
Mecharic said:
Jquaile, I don't like you. I am not a PvPer. I wouldn't be seriously bothered by the complete death of PvP on MassiveCraft - I really wouldn't. I'd miss some of the people who leave (@Tokugawryuu, @Nitesho, @jes_) but for the most part I'd see no serious issues with it. Survival would be PvE and I'd be cool with that. Hell - it would likely be an improvement, finally allowing roleplayers, builders, and explorers to function without a great deal of fear or worry that they'll be killed while doing their own thing. Survival worlds would become more active if all PvP died. And yet here I am, trying to work with you guys on how to get PvP back to life.

And you, you have nothing productive to add whatsoever. You make it difficult to even get the willpower to care. You, and those like you, are the reason staff don't pay attention to PvP as much. You shout down anyone with a different opinion, you block out everything you disagree with, you ignore everyone and anyone who doesn't act, talk, and think like you do. PvP will die, and it will die because players like you shut down every attempt by others to explain themselves, explain their reasons for disliking PvP, and offer ideas as to how to make it more appealing.

Here's what most non-PvPers think you the PvP Community right now:

View attachment 111483
View attachment 111485

Do you understand why nobody wants to help you yet? Do you understand why survival has died yet? Do you understand how toxic and acidic your "community" is towards both itself and to others?

Because that's the biggest roadblock. Mechanics are tolerable. Even losing items is tolerable. But the community? The community is toxic to those who encounter it, acidic towards all those who aren't considered part of it. I remember when raiders complimented the bases they were raiding. When they appreciated those who came out and fought them. When they even took care not to be needlessly rude or cruel. That died a long time ago, and PvP has been dying ever since.
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Honestly f*** off

Have you ever considered that a lot of the community just doesn't like you? And frankly, they have a good reason not to. You're a complete ass to anyone who raids you. I mean, you literally still talk crap about raptum in alliance chat because they lol raided you years ago. Since then, you've just whined about the PvP community and how toxic we are. The funny thing is, the PvP community has been mostly empty of flame for over a year. Most of the major sides are allied to each other, or at least friends. You, however, have been holding a grudge against pvpers because Raptum raided you a long enough time ago that a large portion of Raptum's members aren't even members anymore.

Jquaile is trolling, as are most of the other PvPers who screw with you, because you're still mad because PvPers don't want to play on your terms and have nice conversations before they raid. Because, believe it or not, we do something other than talk in chat and flame all day.

Edit: Rip marty's filter :(
 
Mecharic said:
Jquaile, I don't like you. I am not a PvPer. I wouldn't be seriously bothered by the complete death of PvP on MassiveCraft - I really wouldn't. I'd miss some of the people who leave (@Tokugawryuu, @Nitesho, @jes_) but for the most part I'd see no serious issues with it. Survival would be PvE and I'd be cool with that. Hell - it would likely be an improvement, finally allowing roleplayers, builders, and explorers to function without a great deal of fear or worry that they'll be killed while doing their own thing. Survival worlds would become more active if all PvP died. And yet here I am, trying to work with you guys on how to get PvP back to life.

And you, you have nothing productive to add whatsoever. You make it difficult to even get the willpower to care. You, and those like you, are the reason staff don't pay attention to PvP as much. You shout down anyone with a different opinion, you block out everything you disagree with, you ignore everyone and anyone who doesn't act, talk, and think like you do. PvP will die, and it will die because players like you shut down every attempt by others to explain themselves, explain their reasons for disliking PvP, and offer ideas as to how to make it more appealing.

Here's what most non-PvPers think you the PvP Community right now:

View attachment 111483
View attachment 111485

Do you understand why nobody wants to help you yet? Do you understand why survival has died yet? Do you understand how toxic and acidic your "community" is towards both itself and to others?

Because that's the biggest roadblock. Mechanics are tolerable. Even losing items is tolerable. But the community? The community is toxic to those who encounter it, acidic towards all those who aren't considered part of it. I remember when raiders complimented the bases they were raiding. When they appreciated those who came out and fought them. When they even took care not to be needlessly rude or cruel. That died a long time ago, and PvP has been dying ever since.
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jes_ said:
Honestly f*** off

Have you ever considered that a lot of the community just doesn't like you? And frankly, they have a good reason not to. You're a complete love to anyone who raids you. I mean, you literally still talk crap about raptum in alliance chat because they lol raided you years ago. Since then, you've just whined about the PvP community and how toxic we are. The funny thing is, the PvP community has been mostly empty of flame for over a year. Most of the major sides are allied to each other, or at least friends. You, however, have been holding a grudge against pvpers because Raptum raided you a long enough time ago that a large portion of Raptum's members aren't even members anymore.

Jquaile is trolling, as are most of the other PvPers who screw with you, because you're still mad because PvPers don't want to play on your terms and have nice conversations before they raid. Because, believe it or not, we do something other than talk in chat and flame all day.

Edit: Rip marty's filter :(
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Neither of you are really being that productive right now.

I mean seriously. None of us want this to die, so why are we arguing with each other?
 
I just dont know how to reply.

Because I hear PvPers saying "We are bored fighting the same people over and over, there isnt any new blood" but also... "We want it all to be as vanilla as possible"

And the issue is, if we dont compromise on that second point, we wont get any new blood. I think embracing MassiveMagic, like we really didnt do with traits, would be very beneficial to the PVP community
 
jes_ said:
Honestly f*** off
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Ok.
jes_ said:
Have you ever considered that a lot of the community just doesn't like you? And frankly, they have a good reason not to. You're a complete love to anyone who raids you.
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Ok. Have fun with it all.
jes_ said:
I mean, you literally still talk crap about raptum in alliance chat because they lol raided you years ago. Since then, you've just whined about the PvP community and how toxic we are. The funny thing is, the PvP community has been mostly empty of flame for over a year. Most of the major sides are allied to each other, or at least friends. You, however, have been holding a grudge against pvpers because Raptum raided you a long enough time ago that a large portion of Raptum's members aren't even members anymore.
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I only ever get upset with Raptum when they mention the stupid 8.2k they claim I owe them. I don't get upset at them for existing. I get upset at them for pulling stupid dusty stuff up even when the topic has nothing to do with it. And honestly, I do hold a grudge - but I don't have a good memory and if they dropped it so would I.
jes_ said:
Jquaile is trolling, as are most of the other PvPers who screw with you, because you're still mad because PvPers don't want to play on your terms and have nice conversations before they raid. Because, believe it or not, we do something other than talk in chat and flame all day.
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Ok. Have fun with it. I'm out.
 
Mecharic said:
Do you understand why nobody wants to help you yet? Do you understand why survival has died yet? Do you understand how toxic and acidic your "community" is towards both itself and to others?
.
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Ok honestly I'm not trying to get in on this argument or whatever but I just want to make the point that the pvp community isn't even toxic, yeah we flame occasionally but that's just competitive banter, no one takes it personally, we don't honestly hate each other, I'm actually friends with some of my enemies. We flame because it's fun and adds some extra heat to battles because you feel like you need to live up to your word that you're better then the other person or whatever. And on the point of us being toxic towards "others" as in other communities on the server, it's because people like you treat us like were just ignorant flame machines who don't give a crap about anything, 99% of the PvP community has nothing against rpers/whatever else, it's you guys who seem to have something against us
Idk this is really badly written but you get the point

Edit: and you call us toxic when this was a perfectly clean thread until you decided to start being toxic towards jq and the whole pvp community in general, you're a hypocrite
 
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Mecharic could have worded his message better, jes could have worded his better, and jq could have explained his disagreement aside from just saying "Wrong." In the end, all three of these messages add nothing to the thread and I suggest you get back on topic.
 
One of my issues with Minecraft PvP is that it isn't nuanced in the least. I've no motivation to participate ever, because I prefer complex and intelligent PvP. If Massive manages to make PvP intelligent, which was supposed to happen with the combat update but that was all but disabled, then maybe some of the people that don't come on Massive to PvP would start. Namely me.

In addition, there appears to be an attitude of "Make them join before we die off" floating around. This is unacceptable. Forcing someone to PvP because you want to enjoy it more is silly and childish, because the other portion of the server is RP, and no one is obligated to PvP OR to RP.

At this point, I've found that it is a small but vocal minority trying to influence the balance of PvPers and RPers, but it is futile. Each side views the other as inferior, and as such, they should remain separate. We ofc need to advertise for more PvPers, but just because the Minecraft PvP population is dying doesn't mean that we can't try and get what's left.

Mount and blade has better PvP anyway.
 
Mecharic said:
Ok.

Ok. Have fun with it all.

I only ever get upset with Raptum when they mention the stupid 8.2k they claim I owe them. I don't get upset at them for existing. I get upset at them for pulling stupid dusty stuff up even when the topic has nothing to do with it. And honestly, I do hold a grudge - but I don't have a good memory and if they dropped it so would I.

Ok. Have fun with it. I'm out.
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I was simply not posting a proper reply because of the very thing you accuse me of apparently doing 'shooting people down' 'flaming' etc etc blah blah. As it's not me doing this, I posted one picture and you went ballistic which was quite frankly unnecessary. I agree a great deal with what @jes_ said in reply to you because he is right.

However because you so "politely" replied to me in a way that very nicely showcases the supposedly pleasant side of the community that you are part of I will elaborate on what I posted with some context. What I was objecting to was the statement that defenders have no chance of winning in raids, this is entirely false. With the damage levels at what they are right now, which you wouldn't know about since you don't pvp... it is extremely difficult to fight when outnumbered as long as the people you're fighting have gear.

I solo raided Tyberia the other day, who have gear and potions, they also had 10 or so people online yet no one came out to fight me, I have no doubt if 2-3 people even came out who vaguely knew what they were doing I would have been killed or forced away. In the past yeah sure maybe not but right now damage is far higher and two people hitting you kills you very fast, whether or not you're vastly better or not in pvp.

So I hope I cleared that up for you by replying in equally as nice way as you replied to me :)

Ps. to anyone else who thinks pvpers are all assholes with no brain cells or lives or whatever else yall come up with, maybe you could learn something by actually getting to know some first, because it's far less toxic than it first appears.
 
Celeras said:
I'd rather potions just lasted longer so you don't have to carry a butt load and keep refreshing them in combat. That would alleviate the problem with potions at least for me.
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It would make fights last waaaaaay longer than needed, no one would die without the need to repot and etc. thats basically why the speed2 trait was removed in PVP
 
Parz1vol said:
One of my issues with Minecraft PvP is that it isn't nuanced in the least. I've no motivation to participate ever, because I prefer complex and intelligent PvP. If Massive manages to make PvP intelligent, which was supposed to happen with the combat update but that was all but disabled, then maybe some of the people that don't come on Massive to PvP would start. Namely me.

In addition, there appears to be an attitude of "Make them join before we die off" floating around. This is unacceptable. Forcing someone to PvP because you want to enjoy it more is silly and childish, because the other portion of the server is RP, and no one is obligated to PvP OR to RP.

At this point, I've found that it is a small but vocal minority trying to influence the balance of PvPers and RPers, but it is futile. Each side views the other as inferior, and as such, they should remain separate. We ofc need to advertise for more PvPers, but just because the Minecraft PvP population is dying doesn't mean that we can't try and get what's left.

Mount and blade has better PvP anyway.
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I agree with a lot of this, and think the introduction of MassiveMagic could help with this. I've heard several roleplayers state that they would be interested in PvP when this comes out.
 
Beetletoes said:
I agree with a lot of this, and think the introduction of MassiveMagic could help with this. I've heard several roleplayers state that they would be interested in PvP when this comes out.
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I don't think a plugin will spark their interest for too long. They'll be interested for a week, experiment with it, try it out in PvP, and once they die a few times they'll probably just return to Regalia.
 
Nekoii said:
I don't think a plugin will spark their interest for too long. They'll be interested for a week, experiment with it, try it out in PvP, and once they die a few times they'll probably just return to Regalia.
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As an rper I can say that will be the case for many. But also as an rper, we've been roleplaying as mages for ages. I don't think all of us will give up the chance to do that just because we die a few times.
 
Beetletoes said:
As an rper I can say that will be the case for many. But also as an rper, we've been roleplaying as mages for ages. I don't think all of us will give up the chance to do that just because we die a few times.
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I highly encourage you try it out! :) But you will realize that PvP is not really centered around lore and what you've known for ages by RP'ing as mages.
 
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