Could Massive Pvp Ever Be What It Was?

Mecharic · Feb 8, 2017

Eukratides said:
1. Stop focusing on Regalia
This is by far the biggest elephant in the room. Everything that is done in terms of updates is geared towards the roleplayers in regalia, neglecting pvp and factions. I don't understand what happened that caused staff to focus regalia, but know that this is not the way the server should go. When this server started, to my understanding, it didn't want to be a roleplay forum in 3D. It was the creator of factions after all, isn't that what you are so proud of? This server has tremendous potential to deliver a real Game of Thrones experience, where roleplay and pvp mix beautifully. This server was about big kingdoms, fighting eachother for power or by using diplomacy. Over time this vision was lost and regalia became the focus. This is what we strived to do with Byzantium, having a big faction empire that's actually an empire, based on the real life Byzantine empire. Why don't you focus on creating an experience, where there are kingdoms greater than Regalia, fighting eachother? That is real.

First off, you say that like it's impossible to focus on more than one thing at once. They can keep upgrading and updating Regalia & other lore area without neglecting the rest of the server. Secondly, as the most used area on MassiveCraft, Regalia will always get a lot of attention to keep it interesting and changing to suit the players who use it.

That said, they do need to give more attention to the survival worlds. They need more/better mobs for MassiveMobs. They need to actually make Factions into workable systems from a political perspective (Empire Update: More Ranks [Like, 7 total ranks], More Perms [would be nice to give specific individuals build access to the entire faction, for example], More Relations [Empire Relations], better balance between cost & upkeep, ext) to help making PvP and Empire Building more viable.

"Real" being used in the loosest possible terms here because this is, of course, just a game made of numbers and we're all sitting in chairs.

Eukratides said:
2. Stop banning PvPers for petty shit
This one is obvious. A lot of pvpers have been banned for the pettiest reason one could think of, like (sometimes even accidentally) saying "dance" in general chat, or disrupting some event. From a business perspective, this is suicide. Why would you ban someone who is actively playing and contributing to your server and the factions experience for saying dance? Why would you permanently ban someone for "disrupting" some non pvp event, while you could just jail them or remove them? Tell me, how are you improving the quality of the server this way?

I agree with this one, though it's hard to tell whats an accident and whats intentional. They need to employ the mute feature more often and the ban feature less.

Eukratides said:
3. Moderators being too strict / not understanding the nature of competitive gaming
A bit of a continuation on 2, it is obvious to me when a mod clearly isn't fit to regulate a PvP server. People flame and insult eachother not because they hate eachother, but because it is funny, and adds to this competitive feeling. No one gives two shits if they get "insulted" by someone they have been fighting with, it's just part of the experience and makes it feel a bit more real, a bit more alive. Don't want the more casual people to see it? Bring back PvP chat, and allow insults. Again, no one cares if they get insulted, and if they do, their heart probably can't take pvp and losing stuff. Why did Pvp chat get removed in the first place? That's just dumb, considering general doesn't allow someone to get something off their chest (of course, not in a totally savage way, that is common sense). Insulting eachother is part of the pvp culture, only needing regulation when things get too extreme.

PvP Chat was removed because it literally became a mass of hate and toxic rage. It stopped being a flame & troll chat and became a hate & threats chat. Or at least that's my memory of it. I suppose an opt-in PvP chat with the a decent vocab censor would be a good start.

Eukratides said:
4. Encourage people to take an initiative
Much can be done here. Get someone like Mafro to create a youtube series functioning as a tutorial, make grinding easier, tell them about schematica, inspire people to realize their dreams of being a king over a feudal country. Many suggestions have been made for this, and I think they are all good.

Can't players do this themselves though? Why do staff need to be the ones who make the youtube videos, or arrange them to be made?

Eukratides said:
5. Turn old pvpers into moderators
This is a nobrainer. These players know the server probably better than the admins (from a player perspective) and a lot have done much for the server already. Drop the requirement for having a clean record; when you respect someone enough to give them a position where they can help out the server they love, they will respect you back. For a pvp moderator, you need someone who experienced the pvp fully. Having roleplay moderators and game moderators is fine, or we make every moderator less strict to flaming / insulting / disrupting some event. (Not jabbing at moderators individually - it's just that your job is not suitable for pvp, and you aren't the ones creating the rules)

When you say moderator do you mean into staff? If so, they did that - it didn't stick. Claims of abuse, refusal to PvP, and lack of overall workload led to the collapse of the PvP Department, or so I recall.

Typhenon · Feb 8, 2017

BenRekt said:
By making the gameplay something interesting an inciting. Let's be real, Massive has so much going for it, it just has several major flaws holding it back.

Another idea massive could do , i've seen this with several hcf servers, but make a server trailer, not for regalia, but for the pvp factions world, then you can pay smaller youtubers with like a couple thousand subs to post this trailer on their channel

BenRekt · Feb 8, 2017

Mecharic said:
They need more/better mobs for MassiveMobs.

NO

Typhenon · Feb 8, 2017

BenRekt said:
NO

+1

Mecharic · Feb 8, 2017

BenRekt said:
NO

Thank for the in-depth reply. I really appreciate it. By "more/better" I mean ones that actually make sense and aren't either axefood or OP. MassiveMobs has potential, it just hasn't reached it yet. Least I don't think it has.

Typhenon · Feb 8, 2017

Mech like the only thing they need to change about massivemobs is to stop them spawning in such huge numbers, it honestly can make pvp unplayable, but to keep darkrooms a thing they could keep the spawn rate maybe the same under a certain height level then decrease it from there up?

@Mecharic

BenRekt · Feb 8, 2017

Mecharic said:
Thank for the in-depth reply. I really appreciate it. By "more/better" I mean ones that actually make sense and aren't either axefood or OP. MassiveMobs has potential, it just hasn't reached it yet. Least I don't think it has.

Mech, I'm not trying to be a dick, but Minecraft NPCs will NEVER provide an interesting experience and have 0 potential compared to player interaction. They are limited to Minecraft AI and combat. The focus should be on the players and factions waging wars in the survival world, not superficial mobs that have less personality than my pet rock. Massive needs to encourage people to form alliances, wage wars and actually interact with each other, not focus on something like mobs that will never hold any significance.

Genecide65 · Feb 8, 2017

Why dont we just make the non-pvp side of the server fight? Ya know, through means of force >

jk jk

unless u guys want to

10th crusade

Genecide65 · Feb 8, 2017

Typhenon said:
Mech like the only thing they need to change about massivemobs is to stop them spawning in such huge numbers, it honestly can make pvp unplayable, but to keep darkrooms a thing they could keep the spawn rate maybe the same under a certain height level then decrease it from there up?

or lower the mob spawn rate and have a faction flag for "MobRateIncrease" or something to spawn more mobs in the faction land that its apart of. (or for people who dont have alt facs for darkrooms make it a chunk command)

BenRekt · Feb 8, 2017

Genecide65 said:
Why dont we just make the non-pvp side of the server fight? Ya know, through means of force >

jk jk

unless u guys want to

10th crusade

Haha, that's funny

Crusades are only possible if people actually fight back, instead of being able to freely warp to regalia with no consequence. Been tried a million times, has failed a million times.

Genecide65 · Feb 8, 2017

BenRekt said:
Haha, that's funny

Crusades are only possible if people actually fight back, instead of being able to freely warp to regalia with no consequence. Been tried a million times, has failed a million times.

Nothings impossible when you are wearing a great helm.

BenRekt · Feb 8, 2017

Genecide65 said:
Nothings impossible when you are wearing a great helm.

except getting someone to surrender or actually leave their base

spoonly · Feb 8, 2017

HeartAched said:
God gear is so easy to get it's actually hysterical. Ask anyone with 1k repair to repair your god armor.. it takes 1 diamond and 10 seconds of your time, while keeping all of your enchants. I was in a darkroom for 15 minutes yesterday and made 150r... not that hard to make money. I'm not arguing your point of pvping is dead, but the reasons you gave were meh.

uh yea dood

spoonly · Feb 8, 2017

this is probably the hundredth "2-3 years ago was the glory days of pvp, can we ever return to that" post I've seen on here

Genecide65 · Feb 8, 2017

@spoonly your right we are just a bunch of uncivilized beasts who want to slay each other out, this needs to stop, we need to pick up our pencils and become grade a scholars in the Regalia RP Academy.

jk 10th crusade coming soon

HeartAched · Feb 8, 2017

spoonly said:
uh yea dood

jonathan tabarnak

Mecharic · Feb 8, 2017

BenRekt said:
Haha, that's funny

Crusades are only possible if people actually fight back, instead of being able to freely warp to regalia with no consequence. Been tried a million times, has failed a million times.

Stop hating on Regalia. People can ALSO close their doors, block their homes, build glass ceilings, or live underground. Regalia isn't the only way to ignore PvP, and if you remove it people will just leave Massive or close doors.

65jes89 · Feb 8, 2017

Mecharic said:
Stop hating on Regalia. People can ALSO close their doors, block their homes, build glass ceilings, or live underground. Regalia isn't the only way to ignore PvP, and if you remove it people will just leave Massive or close doors.

Nobody suggested removing regalia.

Genecide65 · Feb 8, 2017

please i just tried to make crusade joke no argue pls

Mecharic · Feb 8, 2017

jes_ said:
Nobody suggested removing regalia.

I'm not saying anyone did, I'm saying that you can't just blame Regalia for all of your problems.

Viscar · Feb 8, 2017

Genecide65 said:
@spoonly your right we are just a bunch of uncivilized beasts who want to slay each other out, this needs to stop, we need to pick up our pencils and become grade a scholars in the Regalia RP Academy.

jk 10th crusade coming soon

*you're

BenRekt · Feb 8, 2017

Mecharic said:
Stop hating on Regalia. People can ALSO close their doors, block their homes, build glass ceilings, or live underground. Regalia isn't the only way to ignore PvP, and if you remove it people will just leave Massive or close doors.

How in the world did you assume I was suggesting the removal of Regaila? If we're going to talk about that, my only thought is that Regalia should actually be in one of the survival worlds, but we aren't. My point is that its ironic that 20 people can show up at your faction and you can simply warp out on a server that is supposedly an "RP-PvP experience".

Mecharic · Feb 8, 2017

BenRekt said:
How in the world did you assume I was suggesting the removal of Regaila? If we're going to talk about that, my only thought is that Regalia should actually be in one of the survival worlds, but we aren't. My point is that its ironic that 20 people can show up at your faction and you can simply warp out on a server that is supposedly an "RP-PvP experience".

Mecharic said:
I'm not saying anyone did, I'm saying that you can't just blame Regalia for all of your problems.

65jes89 · Feb 8, 2017

Mecharic said:
I'm not saying anyone did, I'm saying that you can't just blame Regalia for all of your problems.

Mecharic said:
if you remove it

Caedit · Feb 8, 2017

Because MCMMO is a terrible level up system.

How hard is it to understand that what makes people level up in wow and what makes people level up MCMMO are totally different things, with a vast difference in actual development skill behind their systems.

I can play wow in PVE and level up a character to be max level ready to pvp other max level players without ever touching pvp. I will get matchmade with other players of my skill/tier level, meanwhile a player with maxed MCMMO stats can fight a player who just started.

This is why world pvp in wow died, it's not fun for anyone, even the high level players, and leveling up via PVP isn't worth the effort unless there is a level playing field. Using well designed level systems from games with ten times the population as massivecraft to try and justify the current systems is absurd.

With such a small player base we need a more even playing field, and we simply don't have enough players on the same level in skill or artificial numbers to balance the playing field as is. My only suggestions are as such we have to A. Completely remove all the MASSIVE advantages the top tier players still around have so the newer players can keep up. B. Add new mechanics which players can use to upset stacked victories, in the same way most successful pvp games do, by balancing around skill. Finally C. We need to completely and utterly revamp pvp with completely new, deeper mechanics so everyone starts off on a even playing field again, rather than trying to balance the frankly terrible minecraft PVP system, and balancing the new system.

Unfortunately for the PVPers who don't want such massive changes, new players aren't going to come without them. Vanilla and MCMMO PVP are done better on other servers. Unless we actually try to stand out as something unique, we're never going to get new players to PVP, because why come here when there is a server with a better focus and more players on it, with the exact same pvp we're offering?

soapboxstage · Feb 8, 2017

my thought here, I heard something awhile back about silverwind and how rpers would have to recruit pvpers or jump in themselves to protect their rp bases. I heard a wee bit about how they scrapped the idea from a staff member I think but I don't really know where this went. @MonMarty

Mecharic · Feb 9, 2017

*deep breath*

@jes_, @BenRekt - When I said "if you remove it" I was referring to the general removal of Regalia, not to any one individual or instance where it was said to be removed. Ben claimed that Regalia was making it easier to ignore PvP, I was pointing out that even if it was removed people would still find ways to avoid PvP. Sorry if that wasn't obvious in my original post, which neither of you seem to have read.

Mecharic said:
Stop hating on Regalia. People can ALSO close their doors, block their homes, build glass ceilings, or live underground. Regalia isn't the only way to ignore PvP, and if you remove it people will just leave Massive or close doors.

See, that bold part, and the part before, is what's actually important.

BenRekt · Feb 9, 2017

cpt_manta_ray said:
my thought here, I heard something awhile back about silverwind and how rpers would have to recruit pvpers or jump in themselves to protect their rp bases. I heard a wee bit about how they scrapped the idea from a staff member I think but I don't really know where this went. @MonMarty

A lot of stuff came up, especially conflicts with the EULA, and the team had to put Silverwind on the back burner, understandably.

BenRekt · Feb 9, 2017

Mecharic said:
*deep breath*

@jes_, @BenRekt - When I said "if you remove it" I was referring to the general removal of Regalia, not to any one individual or instance where it was said to be removed. Ben claimed that Regalia was making it easier to ignore PvP, I was pointing out that even if it was removed people would still find ways to avoid PvP. Sorry if that wasn't obvious in my original post, which neither of you seem to have read.

See, that bold part, and the part before, is what's actually important.

*deep breath*

*inhale*

*scratches chin*

*thinks*

lol

Yeah alright, but my point is still the exact same. Players are able to remain unaffected by PvP, while at the same time are unwilling to pay tribute or surrender, leaving raiders with nothing to do. "Go to Regalia" is more of a metaphor at this point for players who avoid defending their base whenever possible and won't make any genuine attempts to actually fight off attackers, they just work around them.

Zacatero · Feb 9, 2017

*inhales*
BOI

Sorry i took the meme bait

Anyway I think the general thing that @BenRekt was getting at about Regalia was that compared to the survival worlds, it would appear that a LOT of the staff time is being spent on Regalia be it lore, world, or otherwise, and not very much being spent on PVP or Survival stuff by comparison

TheComputerGeek2 · Feb 9, 2017

BenRekt said:
Mech, I'm not trying to be a dick, but Minecraft NPCs will NEVER provide an interesting experience and have 0 potential compared to player interaction. They are limited to Minecraft AI and combat. The focus should be on the players and factions waging wars in the survival world, not superficial mobs that have less personality than my pet rock. Massive needs to encourage people to form alliances, wage wars and actually interact with each other, not focus on something like mobs that will never hold any significance.

Machine learning has come a long way, just saying, who is to say that we can't inject our own AI definitions into the mobs? That frees us of the limitation of using the existing ones. Frankly, if I was told that a mob type would adapt its behavior to deal with how people usually fight it, I'd be very intrigued by this, and a lot more cautious around it. Perhaps this could be useful in the taming/control system (if I remember correctly, the mobs could fight along your side supposedly, or was that just a possible idea being thrown out at one point?).

But to address the thread topic, I'm sorry to say, I don't think it can be what it once was. Too much has changed, and that is even when ignoring how minecraft has changed since then. I miss some older times as well, perhaps a different time frame from you, but I still miss the past.
I remember being outraged when I found out we could now craft pots in a grid as alchemy has been an important part of my experience. The changes to axes armor damage, the changes to how armor is applied, they all move us further away.
To be honest, I know I'm terrible at PvP. I know I'm trash, but mcMMO gave me a chance to stand up in the field, gave me some pride that I could work off of. But even with this limited connection to PvP, I miss when there were larger fights, when I could go to a hell biome and grind gold easily, when shake still worked against most mobs. I remember the excitement of joining a raid (which I still died in easily) against raptum. The thing is, I loved the idea of being able to have a go on those odds, against traxex's insane axe level. I feel like some people have been missing those little challenges, instead, everyone seems to feel the need to focus on everything being "fair". </rant>

Mecharic · Feb 9, 2017

BenRekt said:
*deep breath*

*inhale*

*scratches chin*

*thinks*

lol

Yeah alright, but my point is still the exact same. Players are able to remain unaffected by PvP, while at the same time are unwilling to pay tribute or surrender, leaving raiders with nothing to do. "Go to Regalia" is more of a metaphor at this point for players who avoid defending their base whenever possible and won't make any genuine attempts to actually fight off attackers, they just work around them.

Ok, so you've ID'd a problem: lack of surrender or defending. Now you need to ID the cause of the problem. The cause is not Regalia. It's not even the ease with which defense can be ignored. The cause is that defending isn't worth it - players gain absolutely nothing from defending their home turf. They just lose items, waste pots, and get discouraged from doing so in the future. That's the reality, as I've seen it, as I've lived it. So how do we fix that? How do we make defending a faction worth the high likelihood of being killed for the effort?

Mecharic · Feb 9, 2017

Zacatero said:
Anyway I think the general thing that @BenRekt was getting at about Regalia was that compared to the survival worlds, it would appear that a LOT of the staff time is being spent on Regalia be it lore, world, or otherwise, and not very much being spent on PVP or Survival stuff by comparison

Tell me, what do you expect them to actually do?

Zacatero · Feb 9, 2017

Mecharic said:
Tell me, what do you expect them to actually do?

Zacatero said:
compared to the survival worlds, it would appear that a LOT of the staff time is being spent on Regalia be it lore, world, or otherwise, and not very much being spent on PVP or Survival stuff by comparison

I meant it just appears that way. PvP staff was removed mainly in part because there was nothing to do. Not that no effort was put forth. I totally get that. And I know that the gamestaff arent just sitting ducks, I was just trying to empathize.

Mecharic · Feb 9, 2017

Zacatero said:
I meant it just appears that way. PvP staff was removed mainly in part because there was nothing to do. Not that no effort was put forth. I totally get that. And I know that the gamestaff arent just sitting ducks, I was just trying to empathize.

You didn't actually answer my question though. You say they focus on Regalia. Ok. So what? What do they have to do outside Regalia? Outside Events or Questing? Outside of Lore? If you can't answer that, well... you have your answer to why they appear to focus on non-Survival, non-PvP activity.

Zacatero · Feb 9, 2017

Well thats just it. I know they arent soley focussed on Regalia. I can see that Pack Isle is being worked on. I can see other stuff is happening. I think its a little weird that Regalia is constantly getting beautiful updates yet the Ithania spawn, its definitely not up to the server's standard. But thats none of my concern really and its not a big enough deal to fuss about. I am simply giving an idea as to why I think Regalia was even brought up. And I didnt expect it to derail this thread. I brought up the PvP department because i think the same kind of thing is happening. Its not that the effort and manpower isnt there, but the actual projects to do just arent.

BenRekt · Feb 9, 2017

Mecharic said:
Ok, so you've ID'd a problem: lack of surrender or defending. Now you need to ID the cause of the problem. The cause is not Regalia. It's not even the ease with which defense can be ignored. The cause is that defending isn't worth it - players gain absolutely nothing from defending their home turf. They just lose items, waste pots, and get discouraged from doing so in the future. That's the reality, as I've seen it, as I've lived it. So how do we fix that? How do we make defending a faction worth the high likelihood of being killed for the effort?

Well if you go back to the very first point I made, it was about the fact that people need to be incentivized with not having to surrender due to their unwillingness or inability to defend themselves. What is the point of raiding OR defending in a war that literally never has a conclusion? If wars and fights had actual endings, it would bring back the competitive nature between factions that this server once had.

Mecharic · Feb 9, 2017

BenRekt said:
Well if you go back to the very first point I made, it was about the fact that people need to be incentivized with not having to surrender due to their unwillingness or inability to defend themselves. What is the point of raiding OR defending in a war that literally never has a conclusion? If wars and fights had actual endings, it would bring back the competitive nature between factions that this server once had.

You can't force people to do it though. Oh you can make rules that force factions to either defend or surrender, but that doesn't mean people will surrender. People may start charging out without any items just to say "we were defending!" without any risk. Or they could just not use factions or survival at all. Or they could go to a different server. Options aplenty with the internet. So you need to incentivize them, rather than forcing them, to fight. One way to do so would be something that makes defense possible - right now, most larger faction have about as good a chance again Raptum, Deldrimor, or SunKiss as I do of inheriting GetHelps wallet (ei: none). That doesn't lend itself to trying very well.

Sorry that I'm not more helpful, it's not easy to get everyone on-board with something that empowers other people over them. It's like food stamps - people don't want to have others get what they worked for, even if it would help all involved.

jquaile · Feb 9, 2017

Mecharic said:
You can't force people to do it though. Oh you can make rules that force factions to either defend or surrender, but that doesn't mean people will surrender. People may start charging out without any items just to say "we were defending!" without any risk. Or they could just not use factions or survival at all. Or they could go to a different server. Options aplenty with the internet. So you need to incentivize them, rather than forcing them, to fight. One way to do so would be something that makes defense possible - right now, most larger faction have about as good a chance again Raptum, Deldrimor, or SunKiss as I do of inheriting GetHelps wallet (ei: none). That doesn't lend itself to trying very well.

Sorry that I'm not more helpful, it's not easy to get everyone on-board with something that empowers other people over them. It's like food stamps - people don't want to have others get what they worked for, even if it would help all involved.

Zacatero · Feb 9, 2017

Its that old saying

"You can lead a horse to water, but you cant make it drink"

Could Massive Pvp Ever Be What It Was?

I'm tempermental, deal with it.

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people need to hear it sometimes

people need to hear it sometimes

Mich

~Valerus King~

I'm tempermental, deal with it.

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Mich

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a muppet of a man

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