On The Playero Problem

[Mad_Gadfly]

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Introduction: For some time now, members of the Playero family have felt as if they are consistently stonewalled and ostracized because they are Playeros. It had gotten to the point that members of the family felt drained whenever they played their Playero character and felt like they had no path forward in roleplay. However, we forgot to think about how others may feel about the impact that the Playeros have in their roleplay. After some discussion through the Roleplay Ticket Bot, I have realized that some may feel like the Playeros are disruptive to their roleplay or make them want to avoid engaging altogether.

It was said that "unless there is a substantial OOC discussion/reform into what is happening internally in your family unit / your own perception of things, you've reached the point where nobody wants to acknowledge the presence of house Playero but has to". This thread aims to start that OOC discussion. The reason that the thread is public is that I realize that the Playeros may have impacted more people than I can individually speak to via Discord.

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Problem: The Red Berets.

You may remember a time when members of House Playero and its mercenary company, Los Protectores, were running around Regalia in red berets. What you may not know is that the Red Berets were established after the Regalian Judiciary sentenced members of House Playero to what was essentially slavery to the state. If you are familiar with Daendroque culture, you will remember that slavery is probably one of the worst things imaginable to a Daendroque. Therefore, the Red Berets were established as an anti-slavery, anti-Judiciary pseudo-organization, in an effort to make the Regalian State "pay" for the violation of core Daendroque values. Before then, House Playero faithfully served within the Holy Divine Inquisition as high-ranking officers and was generally anti-criminal. In fact, a lot of House Playero's criminal reputation is the result of fabrication by different noble families that thought it would be fun to start a rivalry with us. When the original Red Beret movement fizzled out, it came back as an easter egg within the Los Protectores mercenary company because it 1) was a way for Eloi Playero to honor his dead cousin, and 2) it made Los Protectores visually appear as a paramilitary organization (which it was).

I understand that red berets as a fashion item are associated with socialism and that this may make some people uncomfortable. I hope that you can understand that while I was vaguely aware of this association, red berets do not carry the same significance where I was raised. Depending on where you are on the political spectrum, red berets within Latin America can be symbols of liberation. Liberty is a very important aspect of Daendroque philosophy, so I saw the parallel and thought it would help both 1) call attention to the pseudo-organization and its goals, and 2) invoke some degree of association with Latin American revolutionary liberators. There was even a mention of berets within Bragacao lore as a fashion item that was inspired by the Daendroque, so everything seemed to align perfectly.

Unfortunately, the red berets were instead perceived as a Che Guevara LARP meme. After members of Los Protectores were being arrested for the simple deed of wearing a red beret, and after the Los Protectores company was disbanded, we became aware of this perception and decided not to continue the use of the red berets anymore.

I hope that I have been able to give a satisfactory explanation regarding this problem, and I hope that I have made the reasoning behind the decision to use the red berets very clear. It was never our intention to be perceived as a meme and had this been brought up to us sooner, we would have stopped. It was never our intention to market the Red Beret movement as socialist and we even made a few forum posts about what the organization stood for. I want to reassure you that the use of red berets has ceased since, and has become obsolete due to the Playero name becoming synonymous with freedom-fighting anyways (and crime).

Problem: Glorification of the Protectorate and Andrieu Anahera.

This is another thing that we would have stopped doing more quickly if it had been brought up sooner. There seems to have been some resistance that I was not aware of regarding the glorification of the Protectorate and Andrieu Anahera. This glorification came as a result of the lines "As the events escalated, Andrieu implemented more and more radical social policies, and took power from the nobility and bestowed it on the commoners. This led to both a strong civilian power-base supporting his reign and a lasting legacy where a man single-handedly revitalized the ideals of Jacobinism."

These actions seemed to be compatible with the Daendroque ideas of limited democracy (Cabildos) and anti-establishmentarianism. House Playero was supposed to represent the political left in Regalia, and to make matters more complicated, Simone Playero married Florence Amaya. House Amaya was involved in the establishment of Andrieu Anahera's Protectorate. Support for the Protectorate and the glorification of Andrieu Anahera simply made sense. Since there was no wiki page on Andrieuism, we were left to assume that Andrieuism could be interpreted as pro-democracy anti-establishmentarianism with a focus on social welfare and equality. Essentially, Jacobinism plus a cult of personality around Andrieu Anahera.

However, as House Playero evolved post-Isidoro's death, the family became less anarchist and more Daendroque Nationalist. Since Andrieu Anahera invaded Daenshore, it no longer made sense for House Playero to glorify the Protectorate. We recently started the process of reworking House Playero's politics to address these inconsistencies, which is why the family now associates with the New-Age Imperial Faction and is arguably pro-Empire in the sense that they support Prince Raymond and prefer being colonized by the Regalian Empire instead of the Allorn Empire that enslaved their ancestors.

Some of these lore and some of these developments are recent since we did not know what the New-Age Imperial Faction was until the Imperial Family lore was published and Prince Raymond only recently assumed power. However, the days of House Playero presenting as Protectorate fanatics are over.

Problem: The Playero Name.

There has been some resistance to the use of the Playero name in general. As I understand that Playero is phonetically similar to "Player", which makes it seem like the family name is a meme, please try to understand that this was not my intention nor my first instinct. Spanish is my first language, so I did not immediately associate the word "Playero" (which means beach-dweller, since the Playeros are a beach family) with the word Player. There has been a lot of pressure to change the family name, and while there are arguments to be made that rebranding may help with the family's reputation, I do not believe that the word Playero sounding like Player should be among them. I do not see a problem with using a harmless word from another language because it is a useful description of a family's origin just because it can be confused for another word among English-speakers.

There are currently 10-or-so Playero family members. Many of them joined because they wanted to play a character with the last name Playero. Most of them do not have criminal records, and a majority do not have significant criminal records. Nevertheless, the option to change the family name is always on the table in-character and has been seriously considered by some members of House Playero in the recent past.

Problem: Lack of Opportunities for Playero Redemption.

A very big problem surrounding House Playero is the many opportunities for redemption that it has been given after they apologize for their crimes. The reason that this is a problem is that while House Playero has been able to avoid execution so far because the Violet Order would like to see them redeemed, nobody wants to give members of House Playero an opportunity to actually redeem themselves. No noble family wants to associate with them, so they cannot help the noble house in their good deeds. No business (clinics) or government institution (mercenary bands, guard organizations) wants to hire them due to their controversy and criminal reputation. This has caused House Playero to create its own community. It created its own mercenary company, its own restaurant, and its own clinics. However, the mercenary bands were disbanded due to political intrigue and would not be hired because people avoided House Playero; the business had to move from Daenlock to Crookback because it would be constantly raided by the Violet Order and caused House Playero's reputation to worsen with each arrest without cause, and for a moment was suspended altogether because House Playero was banned from Crookback; finally, nobody goes into the Playero clinics for reasons ranging from being low-key and nobody trusting a Playero with their lives.

Without something to participate in, House Playero has very few opportunities for redemption. This makes the phrase "you need to redeem yourselves" easier said than done, and the argument "we've given you many opportunities to redeem yourselves and yet you're still criminals" a little disingenuous. Fortunately, there is an Alms Ministry that is dedicated to character rehabilitation. Unfortunately, I believe we have been turned away from it in the past and I understand that members of my family do not know how to get involved in it.

This is not a call-out. I understand that there is a genuine desire to see House Playero redeem itself. I am simply saying that there are more obstacles to it than people realize. After some discussion through the MassiveCraft Roleplay Ticket Discord Bot, we have identified the cause of this problem as what will be discussed now.

Problem: Playero Disruption in Roleplay.

This is the apparent cause of the lack of engagement between House Playero and redemption opportunities. This also circles back to what I said in the introduction about nobody wanting to acknowledge the presence of House Playero because it is disruptive.

I understand that House Playero has been disruptive. Our justification has always been that this was necessary to create roleplay. However, not all roleplay is good roleplay. This has been made known to me, as a conversation through the MassiveCraft Roleplay Ticket Discord Bot realized that our behavior could be explained by our holding onto 2016 conceptions of "good roleplay". As you know, it is not 2016 anymore, and it is my fault that I did not "get with the times". As part of an effort to make House Playero less disruptive and make our antagonism more enjoyable and constructive rather than destructive for everyone, I have shared the following flowchart with all members of House Playero and its employees.

Credit to MonMarty

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Conclusion: A lot of the problems surrounding House Playero are the result of a lack of communication. If these problems had been brought up to us, we would have addressed them more quickly. House Playero will be following the guidelines of the above flowchart in hopes that you feel more comfortable roleplaying with us, and so that you are aware of any antagonistic ambitions we may have with your character before they happen (so that you do not feel like you have to avoid us altogether as a precaution). We want you to know that your constructive criticism is heard and that we are receptive to it, which is why we stopped using red berets and why we have been considering name changes. Furthermore, I hope that having a more concrete ideology (New-Age Imperialism instead of Andrieuism) relieves some of your disappointment and anxiety.

I would like to thank everyone for their patience, and for giving House Playero the opportunity to (if not redeem themselves) continue living. Our characters mean a lot to us. If you have any advice regarding how we can get involved with other groups such as the Alms Ministry or the Crookback Militia as part of our redemption arc, please reach out. If you have general advice for how the family can be improved, and how our quality of roleplay can be improved, please let us know in this thread. If we have disrupted your roleplay, we encourage you to start a conversation with us in this thread so we can reach an understanding of what our boundaries are and how you would like us to engage with you in the future.

 

[Karthadon]

The Playero family has become a meme. Not just because of the last name being similar to the english word "player", but because of the constant conflict between them and the law. To me, it seems like many people associate the entire family with crime now, and there are a lot of ooc jokes about the Playeros being criminals. Another issue is the generalization of the family. Every single member is considered by many to be a criminal both IC'ly and OOC'ly regardless of that character's actions or social status. Simone Amaya and Reselda Playero and Mariona Playero were, for the most part, completely innocent. However, due to their association with the family, they were immediately deemed as criminals. Because of everyone being considered criminals, I feel like many players do not want to roleplay with House Playero because they feel as if harm will come to their character because of this, whether it will actually happen or not. When Ulric Malthor, my own character, became associated with them, he immediately was treated different by those around him. He hadn't done anything yet at this point. He didn't even wear the red beret. Just by associating with the name "Playero", he'd been viewed as a criminal.

Now, most of the things I've mentioned may or may not be false. These are just what I have come to believe based on the things that I have seen and heard both IC'ly and OOC'ly.

 

[Bearacuda]

To be honest bro you're like one of the 3 families I can remember.

Good luck for the future.

 

[BertToast]

Hi! So, I play Reselda Playero. I'm not really a big presence on the forums, but I thought it'd be useful give my perspective on this situation. To give you a short rundown on how I got involved with the Playero family, basically I used to play this character called Amalia Mercante who worked at Caffe Maria and that's how I met Wilvahelm, who plays Sebastien Solisti. If you've ever roleplayed with me before, you'll know that I don't really like to get involved in politics and that I generally just like slice of life stuff. Wil invites me to join the Playeros, and I accept because I thought it'd be kind of fun to play a member of an infamous family, not really knowing exactly what that entailed, but still excited to try something new. Compared to my first character, I spent a lot more time working on Reselda. I went through multiple versions of the character, trying to make her interesting and fun, while also making her somewhat of a foil (I might not be using that word correctly) to other members of the family by giving her a more conventional, respectable profession and a more cautious approach to life. It goes alright for the first month. She's a doctor. It's cool. Reselda gets a job at the clinic, makes some friends, hangs out at the tavern. Very standard commoner roleplay, or so I've heard.

Eventually, my activity dips because I have school. Then, when I do get the chance to log on, I feel something shift. I started noticing people giving little digs in their emotes, referring to Reselda as 'the Playero' in situations where they refer to other characters by their first names or a neutral descriptor, and sometimes fully just asking who let a Playero into the clinic, tavern, etc., when they haven't even asked Res her name yet, or something to that extent. Some of this could be me just being sensitive and misinterpreting people's roleplay style, but it's honestly really disheartening to me when people I haven't roleplayed with and built up trust with immediately discount my character. I'm okay with people making fun of Playeros. There's a lot to work with, honestly. What I'm not okay with is generalizing an entire family. We have distinct characters with distinct motivations, personalities, and life philosophies that we've all spent a lot of time working on. In fact, Reselda, Simone, and Eloi just had a big fight because their personalities and goals in life clash so much.

To clarify, I'm not trying to assign blame to any particular person because it's hard to gauge what people's true feelings are through a computer screen and I don't think anyone is actively trying to make us feel bad. Bottom line is though, I don't feel good, which sucks.

 

[CainsTedTalk]

Problem: The Red Berets.

Click to shrink...

Just wanna bring this up, also haven't read the full thing yet but will after work. When I first saw the red berets, I was thinking commies in massive. My first initial thoughts where of the USA and UK military. Red berets hold a significant symbol in the military as Airborne, or a paratrooper.

Just thought I'd add that on there.

 

[Wumpatron]

I'm going to break this down in the best way I can to offer some help for you, because if you want to make the Playero concept work there is some things you would need to address. The explanations are fine for what your position is, but there's some things you may want to consider if you want to maintain this.

It should be noted that I do not represent Lore or the Server with what I say, this is just my own insights.

Red Berets

• Being anti-judiciary for what was caused to the Playeros is a good plot in my opinion, but this wasn't entirely clear with the beret statement.
• While the Daendroque do wear berets on occasion, your usage of the red beret is already something that is largely known for the reasons you describe. It didn't come off as a lore representation as much as it did a nod to an IRL event and movement. This was also echoed in the skin you utilized to pair with the beret. I think if you adopted some of the other Daendroque fashions, the open clothing and more vibrant colors it would have been less jarring and it would have resonated better.
• The Holy Divine Inquisition does not have any positive memories outside of those who were in it. The constant attacks on Kathar characters for paper thin arguments of 'they don't have rights' on top of the gross misuse of puretek lore to justify firing squads it just came off as some unpleasant hyper militarized power trip than anything to do with Unionist lore or anything else. Inquisitions just seem to end up this way for whatever reason, but I digress. It was the start of a trend where negative connotations began especially when said organization is sited as a pivotal high point for the family. No one has positive memories of this experience so it would be best to let it die off.
• I won't dwell on this point more since you've abandoned it, but there comes times where you have to acknowledge the OOC perceptions of things you do IC. You can come up with a variety of lore explanations for the red beret, but the fact you utilized that specific fashion article just reflects the IRL movement it's associated with. It's something I'd warn most people to consider before going through with something like that.

Protectorate

• Nothing to say here, but you'll have to take more steps to undo this perception since they were perceived as being hugely supportive for so long it's part of what people consider for Playero. And a lot of their plots still mirror this ideology.

Playero Name

• The name is whatever, you could have any name at all, but the fact remains that everything that has happened around the family, all the plots that backfired, the crime, the anti-establishment rhetoric, all of that has culminated into now the name Playero just means something that has negative connotations. You could play mother Theresa as a Playero and people would still look at them suspiciously. And really a few character changing name doesn't mean a lot when everything that happened is still there. There's still a paper trail to Playero.

Redemption

• Again, they have done a lot, and it's all been mostly unapologetic. Even the one large event where the Altalar plantation owners got justifixed. All of the plots and schemes, no one trusts Playero. No one has a reason to trust Playero. The only way I could potentially see it working is if Playero drops all of their plots and practically grovels for forgiveness. Start at base zero, which isn't something most would enjoy, but with everything stacked you're left with few options. And at the end of the day, no one has to forgive Playero for what they do. Whenever things have happened they come up with some justification for why they were right. They need to swallow their pride and admit they fucked up. Which isn't easy, IC or OOC, to do. I get that, but that's like what it is.

Disruptive

• I don't consider Playero disruptive to be perfectly honest. I think you just need to consider plots more carefully and play them in the long term as opposed to these short crime bursts that can't exactly be helped but fail. So just be more careful is all I would say. Think of longer plots, and yeah, use the spreadsheet we made up. Most conflict roleplay is 80% social 20% conflict if you want to do it in a constructive way that isn't disruptive or just tiring and stressful for both sides. My magic argumentation is built around conflict, but if I went around being up front with people I would get zero roleplay. People would avoid my character and I would get burned out and likely drop them. It's just a careful balance to make things work. Crime no longer has to go balls in to survive and go out in a blaze of glory. Criminals can exist for years in the current environment and that's fantastic. So just be careful about plots, play the long game and honestly you might get more fun from it. Not just you, but others as well.

My Opinions

• I think you may want to drop Playero and start over. I think you just need some time to reflect and think about what failed and then start fresh. Ultimately this is my opinion, but if you want to do Playero, then you need to just accept you'll be having to climb up from a negative position. But if you're up for it more power to you. Really what we all want is to see you doing what you enjoy and then everyone else doing what they enjoy. It can all meld together nice and well so just think things over and do what you think is best.

 

[RainAxe]

I think my take on The Playero family regards in this weird lack of balance between crime and non-crime related roleplay. As a family, one of the OC's actions tend to reflect the family in general (which is both a sin, and a virtue. How things really work these days when it comes to MassiveCraft within my few months of playing.) With what they've done in the past, it has pushed them to be Crime Oriented. And with that, comes a lack of redemption due to the characters having no real cause to do what they had done in the past (Or so that's how it sort of looked like from my perspective). Some characters can have that opening for redemption if for example- they were a Sanguine and was just in need of curing, or otherwise. Though, I'm not sure if The Playero family can really do this. Something really interesting for the future is if you want to remake the concept of The Playeros- or do a restart would be to keep the Crime ideas incredibly secretive. So much so to the point where even some family members aren't aware of. And to exploit the surface's resources as an advantage to gain numbers within crime spots. Practically a recreation of The Mafia, though oriented to be around the house family. Perhaps even create disguises for recruitment, and elsewhere to build a community that can be Crime Oriented, while still not staining the family name. While I'm not sure if you could redeem the Playero name to reach this part of roleplay and not be suspected of it, anything's possible these days. And I think that either way, having this idea of split alias's could come in handy in the near future if you wanted to recreate this again, while of course being a new family. If you need any help with concepts or ideas, feel free to hit me up on this, since I've had a few dead ideas laying about that I never had the chance to do that might suit this. This is all really surface thoughts on the matter, and I hope that some of this could maybe be of help for the nearby future. Good luck to you man!

 

[Wilvahelm]

Here's my two cents, for whatever that's worth.

I am speaking as someone who started role-playing a Playero in the 'second generation' (for lack of a better term), after Isidoro was killed. I have been doing this role-play since rejoining the server in August of last year after having spent a couple years on and off the server. It's been some of the most rewarding role-play experiences I have ever had. I have no intention on abandoning my character who I have worked on establishing and developing over the course of 2020 and now 2021. My aim was to spend a good-time, not necessarily a long-time on Eloi Playero, given the fact that all characters must die at some point. However, I don't think just giving up and starting fresh in an area that I'm not interested in is a good idea either.

I knew more or less what I was signing-up for when I wanted to join Playero and I understand the territory that comes with being an antagonist character. A personal habit of mine is wanting to join/side with the underdog in nearly all circumstances - whether that be for better or for worse - so I also new that it wouldn't be easy sailing. Unfortunately, other members of Playero have expressed concerns about being treated differently in way that extends beyond in-character (which even itself can become tiresome, but people who know me are aware that I'm never one to complain), and that obviously isn't great.

Something that I do take issue with though, and have found pretty demoralizing, is the idea that Playero as a whole have just been producing bad role-play. I apologize if my role-play has been destructive, or counter-productive, but I don't think it has been. And if it was poor quality, why weren't we told earlier? It just hurts to hear you've been told that you have been role-playing wrong for ten months straight.

I'm not very good at compiling my thoughts in a format like this, so I hope what I've said makes sense.

 

[AtticCat]

As someone who's played a long term crime character in the past that ended up rejected by ALL sides due to a backfired exposure for playing both sides with the gangs and the guards, you have a long road if you want to redeem your character.

Like Wump said, groveling is probably the only way you're going to dig yourself out. My character was the biggest self-center bitch but even she crawled to her knees and asked for forgiveness to get out of the target spotlight.

And you know what? Once people disregarded her again and saw no reason to target her, I jumped back into crime rp for like 5 months as a vampire.

Just takes time. Beg to a noble to take you in or a business, really set your mind to only doing your work and not causing issues or fight folks, and then carry on once people forget you're a relevant problem.

 

[Mad_Gadfly]

I would like to thank everyone who has contributed to the conversation so far. However, I think that my goals have been misunderstood. While I intend to have a conversation surrounding the wrongs of House Playero in the past, the goals are:

1. To inform you that we have engaged in significant OOC reform that should make our roleplay more enjoyable.
2. To welcome any other suggestions I may have missed for our OOC reforms so that roleplay is more enjoyable.
3. To come up with ways by which House Playero can achieve redemption.

I understand that House Playero is considered to be a sinking ship by many, but after discussing with the family it has been determined that they would like to continue playing their characters. The goal of this conversation was never to convince us to stop playing the family, so I would humbly request that you are aware that the repeated suggestion to do so has provoked a lot of anxiety among our younger members.

My character was the biggest self-center bitch but even she crawled to her knees and asked for forgiveness to get out of the target spotlight.

Click to shrink...

This is a good idea and has been tried to some degree on different occasions.

Some characters can have that opening for redemption if for example- they were a Sanguine and was just in need of curing, or otherwise. Though, I'm not sure if The Playero family can really do this.

Click to shrink...

I see what you mean. The "crime" factor of House Playero is not something that can be "cured" like a disease. However, there are different avenues for our redemption. The Alms Ministry is designed to rehabilitate criminals, and Crookback is supposed to be a space where crime characters can thrive. If neither the Alms Ministry nor Crookback provides a path forward for House Playero, then the mission of the Alms Ministry and Crookback is failing.

Practically a recreation of The Mafia, though oriented to be around the house family.

Click to shrink...

This was tried through El Sindicato and La Casa de Juegos section of El Gustazo. However, it was shut down due to constant Violet Order raids with little evidence, and the arrests becoming so frequent and disruptive that people decided to stop this arc altogether out of fear that the many arrests would lead to eventual execution.

And I think that either way, having this idea of split alias's could come in handy in the near future if you wanted to recreate this again, while of course being a new family.

Click to shrink...

This presents the issue of a self-fulfilling prophecy. House Playero started as a family of law-abiding citizens, but since Kibaa and I were playing Daen brothers again, people assumed that we were recreating the House Martinez crime family. Therefore, people treated us like criminals. Being treated this way forced House Playero into crime when they were not meant to be a criminal family.

If every member of House Playero quit their characters (which they don't want to do) to start a new family, the same would happen. People will assume, once more, that we are going to engage in crime. They will treat us differently because they will just say "oh, it's just an act, you just wait, the crime will come", and then it will eventually come because we're forced into crime just because nobody else will engage.

Note: There are HUGE personality, conceptual, political, and character design differences between the Martinez and the Playeros. I guess people do not entirely remember what House Martinez was like, which could be the source of the confusion. If they do remember what House Martinez was like, perhaps they have not gotten to know House Playero well enough (maybe because nobody wants to associate with House Playero).

The crime element persisted only because it an integral part of Daendroque lore, and other stylistic similarities persisted because there is only so much I can do to conceal my signature way of roleplaying/writing/thinking/planning/scheming (it is very hard for me to overrule my IRL thought-processes and personality). Though do keep in mind that not every antagonist family that Kibaa and I decide to get involved with is going to be Martinez 2.0, and that not every Daendroque character that Kibaa and I decide to make is going to be Lorenzo/Santiago 2.0. Insisting that we're simply recreating characters makes me feel like the work that I put into trying new things and coming up with new character concepts is ignored or undervalued.

Protectorate

• Nothing to say here, but you'll have to take more steps to undo this perception since they were perceived as being hugely supportive for so long it's part of what people consider for Playero. And a lot of their plots still mirror this ideology.

Click to shrink...

What are some options we have to undo this perception? How are our current plots mirroring Andrieuism instead of Daendroque Nationalism/New-Agism?

Redemption

• Again, they have done a lot, and it's all been mostly unapologetic. Even the one large event where the Altalar plantation owners got justifixed. All of the plots and schemes, no one trusts Playero.

Click to shrink...

I can think of two things. The first was the Ceardian Reconquista, which I admit was a failed plot based on Isidoro wanting to spite the Judiciary's assigned punishment due to House Playero's enslavement. The second was the Daenshore raids, which was not a scheme as much as it was House Playero being used by House Mac Conall. It was never Eloi's intention for this to have ended up in the rise of lynch mobs. I suppose that the burning of the Steak Estate is a bonus third example, which was a reaction to House Keen abusing House Playero. In fact, these are the only non-petty crimes that House Playero has been convicted of.

Isidoro assumed complete responsibility for what happened in the Ceardian Reconquista and apologized. Eloi was punished for the Daenshore raids. Mariona had her hand burnt for the Steak Estate problem. There are a few apology threads in the forums. I feel that House Playero's criminal reputation is exaggerated at times and that crimes committed by dead characters are still being used as a justification to be tougher on characters in the family that barely (if ever) engage in crime. The family has apologized, it's just that they've never been given the opportunity to make up for their crimes.

Community service in the Alms Ministry does not do much to undo the public's perception of the family unless they are in direct contact with the Alms Ministry. Unless some heroic act is done in some World Progression (which we do not have access to due to a lack of funding), our smaller good deeds are likely to go unnoticed and actually undone due to others who are unaware of the good deeds still "piling on" to the "hate on the Playero family" bandwagon meme.

I think you just need to consider plots more carefully and play them in the long term as opposed to these short crime bursts that can't exactly be helped but fail.

Click to shrink...

I think that people are under the impression that a lot of what we do is part of a scheme that fails. We don't do a lot of scheming because we have limited contact with nobility. Our schemes so far have been 1) the Ceardian Reconquista, 2) exposing House du Brierust for cooperating with the Lich, and 3) spying for Chancellor Delmotte. So, I'd like some clarification on what you mean by that.

Crime no longer has to go balls in to survive and go out in a blaze of glory. Criminals can exist for years in the current environment and that's fantastic.

Click to shrink...

This is great advice. I don't have much to say about it, but I just wanted to point out how this was actually something I was not aware of until I had a conversation about the situation through the Discord Bot.

Simone Amaya and Reselda Playero and Mariona Playero were, for the most part, completely innocent. However, due to their association with the family, they were immediately deemed as criminals.

Click to shrink...

I think it has been forgotten that House Playero does not engage in petty crimes, but rather they engage in politically motivated political crimes. Not having access to the World System makes it hard to actually accomplish this, but at least we were having good progress in-game until people decided they didn't want to interact with House Playero.

Because of everyone being considered criminals, I feel like many players do not want to roleplay with House Playero because they feel as if harm will come to their character because of this, whether it will actually happen or not.

Click to shrink...

Do you feel that the use of the flow chart in the main post will help reduce this effect, as we would be letting people know of our criminal intentions in advance?

Note: If I did not address something here, I agree with it to some degree and will be taking it to the rest of the family so we may have some internal discussion. Feel free to respond to my comments so that I am more clear on what is meant by some of your feedback.

Thank you so much for being willing to contribute to this conversation! Truly, it means a lot to all of us.

​

 

[Athelois]

Crookback is failing.

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The mission of Crookback is to make a space for criminals to interact without removing the consequences of being antagonistic toward most of the server.

It is up to the characters, and players, as this is both IC and has now been brought OOC, to determine if they want to invest the time and effort into interacting with the family. Especially when, from the viewpoint of many, that family would sell the entirety of Crookback out for a corn chip. Crookback is a place, a culture, and a community, and it is up to the players to determine who they do or don't want in their culture and community.

Unfortunately, it seems most of the characters in Crookback don't like Playero/Amaya, either through their prior issues with Crookback, snitching on gangs/group leaders to gain a leg up, orchestrating vandalism/burnings, implicating group members, etc. There is a lot going on beneath the surface for character motivation, grudges, and information exchange that you and your family will just unfortunately not be privy to.

The Alm's Ministry is a player run group that is not set up by staff and has no staff intervention/oversight. Their mission has nothing to do with elevating characters that show absolutely no remorse and no promise of change.

At the end of the day, I cannot say even hard divorcing from the surnames Playeru & Amaya will change the perception, because of IC dishonourable actions that people will remember for a very, very long time. The only thing I can suggest is perhaps guiding the family members to being more believable when they apologise and hard divorcing from the Playero/Amaya name & prior motives. And even if/when you do, you will be faced with a lot of backlash. It is not something that is going to be easily overcome, certainly not something that is going to be easily forgotten, and you will have to take that in stride.

 

[Mad_Gadfly]

It is up to the characters, and players, as this is both IC and has now been brought OOC, to determine if they want to invest the time and effort into interacting with the family. Especially when, from the viewpoint of many, that family would sell the entirety of Crookback out for a corn chip. Crookback is a place, a culture, and a community, and it is up to the players to determine who they do or don't want in their culture and community.

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I didn't mean to say that Crookback was failing. I meant to say that if House Playero is unable to use Crookback for redemption, then it may be failing. House Playero is perceived as a criminal family. Crookback is a criminal stronghold. However, I see your point about Crookback being more than a stronghold, and how it is a community. This is why we are all very hopeful that our transition to El Gustazo roleplay within Crookback will get us more in touch with that aspect of Crookback, and help towards the family's redemptive goals! House Playero has already attempted to show remorse, so now it's a matter of doing it in the right way so that they can move forward in Crookback/the Alms Ministry.

 

[Athelois]

snip

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That was part of the motivation to approving the business within Crookback. Maybe once you get your feet settled and get to know everyone and vice-versa, things will settle. It's just important to remember that everyone has their own motivations and distaste for a variety of reasons, even if they're flippant or they don't make sense to you.
Beyond that, just keep pushing and come to the realisation that sometimes people just don't mesh well, and that's okay. Not everyone is going to get along and sometimes, conflict arises out of that. Just gotta take it in stride.

 

[Ocularum]

Not having access to the World System makes it hard to actually accomplish this,

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Everyone has access to the progression system. You no longer need Noble backing to accomplish things, but it may make some endeavors easier. Provided you have the resources (players with appropriate skills, transportation, etc) you can theoretically do anything.

 

[Northern_Ireland]

Moreover, the DM's specifically provide opportunities maked with an {!} for non-nobles (or nobles) to take adantage of or gain finances. To name but two examples there was the fashion contest in Maarle, or the unguarded weapon stores in Don Kologh lands.

 

[Mad_Gadfly]

Everyone has access to the progression system. You no longer need Noble backing to accomplish things, but it may make some endeavors easier. Provided you have the resources (players with appropriate skills, transportation, etc) you can theoretically do anything.

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I was not aware of this because past progressions without funding have failed/been dismissed by the World System entity. Thanks for letting me know!

Moreover, the DM's specifically provide opportunities maked with an {!} for non-nobles (or nobles) to take adantage of or gain finances. To name but two examples there was the fashion contest in Maarle, or the unguarded weapon stores in Don Kologh lands.

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Unfortunately, it is too late for us to jump on these. We're keeping our eyes out for the next ones though!

Note: Difficulties surrounding the World System is only one aspect of the problems surrounding House Playero. I am more concerned with addressing the in-game problems that have materialized since those are what make our members uncomfortable, but I do believe that this information about the World System can help overcome a lot of the on-screen obstacles.

 

[Karthadon]

Do you feel that the use of the flow chart in the main post will help reduce this effect, as we would be letting people know of our criminal intentions in advance?

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Most likely.

 

[Farly108]

Just going to throw this in here more of a general comment im sure its been said before but.
If you keep backstabbing, everyone you interact with or try to help.
No one is going to want to help you.
In everything there is a give and take.
and you cant just take take take and expect people to keep giving.
Playero seems to only think in a very weird psudo reactionary state where they only think almost 1 step behind. Never consider anything or anyone else and only work towards short term goals which jeopardize long-term goals.
But I could just be talking crap who knows thats my take.

 

[Mad_Gadfly]

If you keep backstabbing, everyone you interact with or try to help.

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House Playero spied for Chancellor Delmotte and got nothing from it despite promises. Not even House Kreiburg was backstabbed when Isidoro used their troops to conquer Ceardia. House Kreiburg was "in" on the invasion of Ceardia from the beginning. Isidoro Playero claimed full responsibility in order to "save" House Kreiburg (if only for continued political protection as a ward), and was demoted to Kathar-rank citizenship as a consequence. If I remember correctly, House Playero had a deal with House Mac Conall twice. Once in exchange for a progression token, and once in exchange for a favor I won't go into detail about. House Playero earned their token from House Mac Conall, but House Mac Conall lied and said House Playero raided their vault. House Playero earned their favor, but the favor never came.

Let me know if you still think House Playero backstabs and takes without giving back. If you do, give me a concrete example as to why so that I can address the issue directly. This is a very broad statement that you made, and I can't do much with it.

Playero seems to only think in a very weird psudo reactionary state where they only think almost 1 step behind.

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Explain.

Never consider anything or anyone else and only work towards short term goals which jeopardize long-term goals.

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House Playero has had allies they have considered before, and House Playero plans around its enemies. They currently do not consider allies because House Playero is short on allies. House Playero is short on allies because for a while, people did not want to roleplay with them.

Please elaborate on what long-term goals you believe we have jeopardized. I'm not sure we've shared these with you before. The reason we emphasized short-term goals was because of the outdated 2016 mentality that crime characters don't last very long, but as I said earlier in this thread, we're not doing that anymore.

But I could just be talking crap who knows thats my take.

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It's not talking crap if you back up what you say with examples so that you can prove something is actually a problem that has been happening and was not already addressed in this thread. I urge you to explain your comment further so that we can take appropriate notes and consider reforms.

 

[Northern_Ireland]

If I remember correctly, House Playero had a deal with House Mac Conall twice. Once in exchange for a progression token, and once in exchange for a favor I won't go into detail about. House Playero earned their token from House Mac Conall, but House Mac Conall lied and said House Playero raided their vault. House Playero earned their favor, but the favor never came.

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To avoid unintentional meta, we can discuss why exactly this occurred in PM's.

 

[canaaa]

As someone whose work and prior noble house was brought to its knees by House Playero from what was ultimately me being too nice and allowing someone to pick three books out of a library containing hundreds, I think my reservation with House Playero is that I just don't want that to happen again. I'd rather not poke the bear and tempt fate when I've spent the last year picking up the pieces and let it all come crashing back down again. Sure, it was a good scheme, and sure, it did what y'all wanted, but I think I'll always be apprehensive when it comes to Playero/Amaya/associated families/houses because of that awful experience. My character absolutely pushes the "Playero are just criminals" narrative IC due to those experiences, and the repeated actions (Zemlith Affair, border skirmishes in Daenshore, Eloi murdering someone, another Playero committing arson) just feed into that.

Personally, I think the best way forward is to go to each person/group/etc your house had aggressed/upset IC and sort out the old bad blood and start off with a fresh slate. It's what I did when House du Brierüst sank into the ground and I was laying the groundwork for Cadieux. That sort of RP isn't considered a lot of the time, but it's immensely valuable due to the closure on both sides.

Just my two cents.

 

[Proudbucket]

The playeros have an image problem. You can
1) Change the image (which is an uphill battle).
2) Own it.
3) Take an alias and a disguise (alchemy + body care + government forgery).

In my opinion, the third option is the way to go. The playeros will exist as a myth in the shadows but their effect will be felt.

 

[Mad_Gadfly]

The playeros have an image problem. You can
1) Change the image (which is an uphill battle).
2) Own it.
3) Take an alias and a disguise (alchemy + body care + government forgery).

In my opinion, the third option is the way to go. The playeros will exist as a myth in the shadows but their effect will be felt.

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I have expressed earlier in the thread that the family has decided to keep their characters and their names. With that in mind, I'd like for you to elaborate on options 1 and 2. How do you propose that the image be changed, and how do you propose that the family "own it" without ending in the mass-execution/stonewalling of our characters?

 

[BillyTheScruffy]

I wasn't going to comment on this thread but having read through the comments I have come away with this weird discomfort whereby this thread from the outset had the tone of 'please let us know what will make things better for Playero' which quickly turned into 'prove that Playero is actually as bad as people make it out to be'. The whole thread comes across as somewhat disingenuous, especially given that I know that there are plenty of individuals, including myself, who have spoken to you on the matter before. That said, I will throw my two cents in here as bullet points (I originally had my points longer but I'd rather keep things concise and leave no room for misinterpretation) for you to hopefully take away something from. Note: I am not going to go into detail by providing specific instances. This is a discussion thread with the purpose of helping you guys, not a court trial. Take my points or dont, it doesnt particularly matter much to me at the end of the day.

1. Playero isn't half as clever as you likely think they are. A lot of their plots don't come across as well thought out and the family members actions (going off of a criminal record here that I looked into) shows me that its members make rash decisions all of the time which they then condemn others for when icly no one trusts/thinks they're competent/want to deal with the potential fallout from working with them. It isn't fair to blame others for not giving you guys a chance when you guys have an IC track record of being a liability. I suggest you work on that more than you have.
   
   
2. You guys have a history of poor OOC conduct. I'm not going into details but I suggest you review how Playero has operated, look back on staff communication with you guys and look for a means to better portray yourselves IC and OOC in the future.
   
   
3. Playero suffers from being tone deaf and having RP tunnel vision. They operate in a vacuum where their IC actions would be reasonable in past systems/past years that ultimately isn't compatible with the roleplay environment in this day and age. I have heard over and over again from others about how Playero feels like a 'reskinned Martinez' and I cannot help but agree with them. To fix this, I would recommend genuinely trying to turn around the IC perception with actions, rather than a forum post. You don't need the Alms Ministry, you don't need Crookback, you just need to host your own thing. Do some events. Do some charity. Help the Empire.
   
   
4. Ditch anything protectorate. This isn't 2015 anymore and that has long since passed. Pick your battles, try and come across as less sleazy. More trustworthy interactions would be preferable. Find a House that you can get under the wing of and support them fully, you'll find that with a less antagonistic attitude and by having a strong ally, you'll have more doors open to you.
   
   
5. Start actually owning up to your mistakes and stop looking at the family's actions through rose tinted glasses. It's alright to ask for guidance, it's even recommended that you do so, but I all too commonly see you guys asking for advice or help only to turn it around. Also, see our DMs, I've still not had a reply to my response to your query.

These are my major issues with the family and ones that I think are so far gone that yes, it's going to be a task and a half to pull things back into a comfort zone for you guys. I think it's safe to say that any criminal empire you guys were gunning for has been upturned by the Playero's actions ICly and the reputation that has been garnered from such is always going to be a large hindrance to you. I'm not going to recommend you give up, but I think at this point it's best you make peace with that fact because its not as if two or three people have issues with Playeros at this point, it's a huge majority varying from low level commoner to upper level nobility and that's very indicative.

Do as you will with that. Also it should be noted that funding in the World system is still very much a thing but its common sense dictated. Its not gone.

Spoiler: Crimes that the Playeros have committed as per Violet Logs

1. A Playero burned down the steak estate.
2. Eloi runs a gang or whatever - either way, they operate as if they are a gang.
3. Attempted murder on a dude, shot and brutalized by Eloi's men, then rolled the dude into a canal. Character survived.
4. Hired vampires to abduct a guardsman - Said vampire tortured the guard under their orders.
5. As the above states, has worked with a few vampires. Not just one.
6. Constantly harped on and on about the Protectorate. Even on public forums. Could have been executed for that honestly but Cripple is very execution shy.
7. Claimed territory in the Daen district and then threatened guardsmen not to patrol there.
8. Assaulted a noble in the ALMS SAFEHOUSE - Put his head under water and tried to drown them. Then a Brute squad member rolled up, protecting the Alms and they began stabbing the noble and the Brute Squad member and then ran off.
9. Killed some woman - We pulled her body out of a canal a few days after the murder. Eloi confessed to it. (Obvious cooperation there between the two players for some narrative, but still a crime).

 

[MonMarty]

When I said "take public accountability with an open discussion", I didn't mean "parrot the 5 things I said with more wording to seem genuine, and then adding 10 more reasons why you're the victim and everyone is against you, and the lore directives are at fault, and the players are at fault, and the staff are at fault."

Shit's as simple as saying "Sorry for the meme-rp, the stress-causing and, We're gonna try to do better and start over". But you're just digging in further.

 

[Mad_Gadfly]

which quickly turned into 'prove that Playero is actually as bad as people make it out to be'

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I ask for elaboration whenever I need more information to make educated decisions. If I do not understand why people think what they think, I can't do much to change the specific things that need to be changed. I am not challenging the idea that Playero is as bad as people make it out to be, and I apologize if that is what it comes off across. This thread exists because I recognize that Playero is as bad as people say and because we want to fix it.

It isn't fair to blame others for not giving you guys a chance when you guys have an IC track record of being a liability

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Fair point. We won't call this out as an OOC problem due to the IC element you described. We will use this thread for OOC advice on IC alternatives to self-betterment.

Playero feels like a 'reskinned Martinez' and I cannot help but agree with them. To fix this, I would recommend genuinely trying to turn around the IC perception with actions, rather than a forum post. You don't need the Alms Ministry, you don't need Crookback, you just need to host your own thing. Do some events. Do some charity. Help the Empire.

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@Wilvahelm, @Berternie, and I came up with a system to start doing that.

Ditch anything protectorate.

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We've decided to replace support for the protectorate with support for the New-Age Imperial Faction. Hopefully, this will lead to a less antagonistic attitude against the Empire and open doors to potential allies with similar political alignments (which we couldn't do with the pro-protectorate attitudes of the past).

I all too commonly see you guys asking for advice or help only to turn it around.

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I hope that despite this thread coming off as disingenuous, you will see an honest effort to improve the standing of the family and seriously consider/incorporate the feedback we have been receiving. Admittedly, the thread has only been up for a couple of days, and we will need more time to act on what has been said.

Also, see our DMs, I've still not had a reply to my response to your query.

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The family members that expressed the grievance struggled to name specific examples or provide evidence. Now that they have been told to make a note of these circumstances, they will be brought up to you or a ticket whenever they arise.

Spoiler: Crimes that the Playeros have committed as per Violet Logs

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I recognize a few of these arrest reports. Some of them are valid, others are the result of successful schemes to frame/convict @Wilvahelm on minimal evidence.

and then adding 10 more reasons why you're the victim and everyone is against you, and the lore directives are at fault, and the players are at fault, and the staff are at fault.

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I'm not blaming the lore staff or the community. I expanded on the things you said in the ticket to provide context and express grievances that family members have brought up to me so that they could be addressed holistically.

Shit's as simple as saying "Sorry for the meme-rp, the stress-causing and, We're gonna try to do better and start over". But you're just digging in further.

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I felt the need to dig in further because it would have felt insincere to tell people that we were going to try to do better and start over without first assessing their opinions and hearing their advice. I am satisfied with the feedback we've received so far and the family believes this to be helpful. In fact, our morale has improved greatly due to people's explanations and positive feedback, and we feel much more secure now that we've been given constructive criticism.

Note: Please, please, please do not presume malice from me starting this thread. I was advised to start a discussion, and that is what I tried to do. I sincerely felt that we were seeing success. I understand that my tone may come off in ways that allow it to be misinterpreted, and I admit that I am not always the best at communicating diplomatically. Nevertheless, I do not mean to cause trouble or spite anyone, and I hope that it shows in how seriously we're taking this discussion and the efforts we've started to restructure the family.

 

[Proudbucket]

I'd like for you to elaborate on options 1 and 2.

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For option 1 the Playeros need to appear away from crime and denounce it. They can still do crime rp but the important thing is that the playeros should not be associated with the crime. I'd recruit a few goons to do the dirty work while the Playeros dedicate a bit of time to fix their public image. Have the playeros fix the next vandalism act and take the fame. Donate food to the poor and make a big fuss out of it. Heck... you can even solve the trouble that your goons cause (lol). Have them light a place in fire and then (conveniently) the playeros arrive to do firemen work and save kittens. Go rescuing people that are (conveniently) getting mugged. Hire a sculptors to make a statue of your character kissing a baby while children laugh around you. Your goons can do some kidnappings and you can "negotiate" or "deal" with the kidnappers... in return you just ask the victim to remember you as a friend (friends help eachother). Possibilities are limitless.

For option 2 you pretty much do as many criminal Kathar. They have a terrible image in the eyes of most Regalians and basically they have little to no chance to clear their name (they will always be mistrusted for being Kathar). They have their own lives in the crockback and do politics in the crockback and sometimes they go to the main city to harass/terrorize others. They have power because people still go and negotiate with them in a (vain) attempt to appease them. However, the Kathar rarely go all in and they know their limits. When they see guards they argue that they are not causing trouble or (if they are) they just run to the crookback and cause trouble another day.

Also, there is no reason why you can't do 1 & 2 at the same time. Your family can retreat to the crookback and try to get on good terms with the people there while you improve your image outside. In the crookback the playeros can openly be nasty but in the city you use veiled threats and non playero goons.

Take my advise with a pinch of salt. I don't do crime rp so I can only tell you how things could work from a perspective of a good-doer. I probably oversimplified the life of a Kathar and I probably ignored important aspects (sorry Kathar players!).

 

[FutureTeller]

Please. Looking in a mirror and reflecting can do a lot.
Half the time someone posts their input and what's been up from their point of view, you come and defend/explain how things are actually not that way and how it actually makes sense/somehow is someone else's fault/etc.
Sometimes, you mess up and don't realize. And in this instance, you opened a thread asking for feedback and improvement ideas. Instead of trying to defend your every action, just suck it up hand say "Yeah you might be right, I'll keep that in mind and try to improve on that.", and nothing more. Especially in this instance where so many people come forward with similar statements, maybe, just maybe, they might have a point, you know?
Even if less people would've replied, if you ever make this kind of discussion again, MAYBE less people will reply because they see no point in arguing about this anymore, reflect. At least take a moment to run everything through another perspective, just to figure out if they're at least wrong, you know?
There are days where I wish I could have a feedback page like this, so I could check regularly to see and try out how I can improve, not to try and argue myself out of it. Yet I know my small quirks and offs are not as much of a pressing issue like this, else someone would've reached out to talk to me by now I'd imagine.
So actually use this. Please. You can improve and mend so much through this too. People are talking to you and offering advice and a helping hand. They could've also just ignored this and continued keeping y'all out of shit, especially those that really took a hit from your schemes and ended arcs unsatisfied.

Now for my two cents, in my case I was mainly in a different niche so we never had a reason to interact, but I'd like to say this.
Saying "the [surname of character]", especially in an emote, is really not offensive or derogatory from what I know. Especially when it's not just done to one specific group. And no, the Playero who brought this up will not automatically be right because they are the Playero and experiencing this. While yes, you may be feeling this way, please consider that you may also be putting too much/non-existent meaning behind that. I'll try to avoid it in your case from now on, as repetitive as it may make some of my emotes and as much as that may bother me, but please think about that. Please think about a lot of stuff, like the weird political promotion you guys had going in your discord server, or how at times it felt like you were making the rest of the world a common enemy to bond over. It's whacky.

 

[Mad_Gadfly]

you come and defend/explain how things are actually not that way and how it actually makes sense/somehow is someone else's fault/etc.

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I am not defending it. I am not saying it is someone else's fault. I am providing important context and I am providing important information about what members of the family have expressed to me. Sometimes, feedback is made when the full reasons for why we feel a certain way or why were have done certain things are not understood or known. For example, it is important for me to explain why the Red Berets existed, and it is important for me to explain why the name Playero actually has linguistic significance. Neither the Red Berets nor the name Playero was meant to be a meme, but people expressed to me that they thought it was. If they had continued to believe it was a meme, their feedback would have looked something like "stop memeing", but because the situation was explained beforehand, we got feedback we could actually use.

For feedback to be constructive, we need to tell people why we did things so they can tell us where they think we went wrong. We also need to express whether we feel something should not be our fault so that people can tell us if we are missing something. For example, expressing that the Alms Ministry and Crookback may not be helpful is not meant to shift blame to them. It is meant to highlight how our past inability to interact with these is part of what we perceive as the problem of lack of redemption opportunity. Identifying this problem made it possible for someone to bring up how El Gustazo can be used to incorporate the family into the Crookback community, which is incredibly helpful feedback. Similarly, expressing that Eloi Playero has been arrested on false charges is not meant to shift blame to the Violet Order. It is meant to highlight that the Playero criminal reputation is a vicious cycle that causes you to be arrested more easily because they already think that you're up to no good. So simply telling the Playeros to "stop doing crime" isn't really very helpful to us, because Playeros have been arrested even when they haven't committed any crimes.

Especially in this instance where so many people come forward with similar statements, maybe, just maybe, they might have a point, you know?

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Just because everyone says the same thing doesn't mean that they're all right. It could mean that they all have the same misinterpretations because we have not done an effective job at clarifying them before. I'm not saying they are wrong, but we clarify things because if you leave a small rumor to fester for long enough, it will spread. We cannot use feedback that is based on rumors, so we try to clarify as much as we can.

There are days where I wish I could have a feedback page like this

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There is nothing stopping you from making your own feedback thread. I will advise, however, to be mindful of keeping the feedback thread on-topic.

So actually use this. Please. You can improve and mend so much through this too.

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We have been using this. We stopped using the Red Berets when we learned people thought it was a meme. We explained the meaning of the name Playero when people thought it was a meme; we would have changed it altogether, but the family decided against it. We abandoned the glorification of the Protectorate in favor of support for the New-Age Imperial Faction. I shared a flowchart with the family so that they had a better idea of how to engage in antagonism roleplay when people brought up that we were being disruptive. In order to separate House Playero from House Martinez, we created an internal family system that provides for many of the things that were advised. All these things have happened as a response to the feedback mentioned in this thread.

I am asking people to elaborate and clarify not to challenge them, but rather to have a better idea of what they think we did wrong so we can avoid it in the future. When I ask for more information, I do because I agree with their basic premise and would like for them to expand on it so that I can incorporate it into our reforms. If I bring up something to contradict some of the statements in this thread, the door is open for that person to come back and tell me why what we have done is still a mistake or past attempts at redemption have been botched.

like the weird political promotion you guys had going in your discord server

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Some of the chat are Palestinian. Some are Socialists. We have a separate channel for them to discuss their beliefs so that political discussion does not bleed into other channels.

Saying "the [surname of character]", especially in an emote, is really not offensive or derogatory from what I know.

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This is a problem that is unique to @Berternie, so I will let them elaborate if they wish. In any case, this was a matter of one of my family members feeling personally uncomfortable because they perceived it as dehumanizing. You can disagree, but that won't change how my family member still feels dehumanized.

Note: I feel like your post is more directed towards me and how I handle feedback rather than how to solve the Playero problems. If you feel I am not accepting feedback appropriately, please reach out to me on Discord. Feedback on my personality and problem-solving is always welcome. For now, I'd rather this thread remain focused on identifying problems and coming up with solutions. The feedback in this thread is being considered, and reforms are being implemented. I hope this shows that the questions/challenges I am presenting are not being asked/made in bad faith, but rather so that we can continue implementing comprehensive reforms.

 

[BertToast]

Now for my two cents, in my case I was mainly in a different niche so we never had a reason to interact, but I'd like to say this.
Saying "the [surname of character]", especially in an emote, is really not offensive or derogatory from what I know.

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Okay sooooooo I've thought a bunch about the whole 'The Playero' thing and I've realized that I definitely jumped to conclusions. I now recognize that I've allowed some of the negative experiences I've had playing this character to bleed into other interactions and I've been misinterpreting people's intentions. I would hate for you to have to adjust your roleplay style for a mistake that I have made and I'm sorry that I've annoyed you and caused unnecessary drama. I'll try not to be so sensitive in the future!

 

[FutureTeller]

snip

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Handled via dms, luv ya. o7

We have been using this. We stopped using the Red Berets when we learned people thought it was a meme. We explained the meaning of the name Playero when people thought it was a meme; we would have changed it altogether, but the family decided against it. We abandoned the glorification of the Protectorate in favor of support for the New-Age Imperial Faction. I shared a flowchart with the family so that they had a better idea of how to engage in antagonism roleplay when people brought up that we were being disruptive. In order to separate House Playero from House Martinez, we created an internal family system that provides for many of the things that were advised. All these things have happened as a response to the feedback mentioned in this thread.

I am asking people to elaborate and clarify not to challenge them, but rather to have a better idea of what they think we did wrong so we can avoid it in the future. When I ask for more information, I do because I agree with their basic premise and would like for them to expand on it so that I can incorporate it into our reforms. If I bring up something to contradict some of the statements in this thread, the door is open for that person to come back and tell me why what we have done is still a mistake or past attempts at redemption have been botched.

Some of the chat are Palestinian. Some are Socialists. We have a separate channel for them to discuss their beliefs so that political discussion does not bleed into other channels.

Note: I feel like your post is more directed towards me and how I handle feedback rather than how to solve the Playero problems. If you feel I am not accepting feedback appropriately, please reach out to me on Discord. Feedback on my personality and problem-solving is always welcome. For now, I'd rather this thread remain focused on identifying problems and coming up with solutions. The feedback in this thread is being considered, and reforms are being implemented. I hope this shows that the questions/challenges I am presenting are not being asked/made in bad faith, but rather so that we can continue implementing comprehensive reforms.

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With exception to paragraph 1 I can say "Read the whole thing" to the pieces I've cut out in this quote.

To para 1 I can mostly just say I've lowkey written that up when I just woke up, and tried to figure out how to word it. I am failing it's just, that's been said already, yet concerns continue being voiced so mayhaps something isn't coming over properly.

para I left in: Has been said like 3 times already as well. Read rest of my paragraph there (I'm p sure I edited that add-on before you saw it considering when you responded, but just to be sure there are a few extra lines to it.), and if we're in the clear on that then coolio. I hope you can work with parties you'd like Playero to be involved with to try again and make it better, maybe even have recurring stuff, etc.

It's great that some people in your chat are Palestinian and Socialists, but it can feel a bit weird when you then proceed to @ everyone in the announcements to direct them to the political stuff, even telling them to look through and see if they're interested. It rubbed me the wrong way and felt like it was also a server dedicated to a political direction, not just a funny mineman family server. Also the reason why I left, and I'd highly suggest you separate it a bit more/make a separate group chat or discord server so other people don't get the implication too.

As for the note, I can just say reflect. And mayhaps consider how things can be taken differently than expected, and what kind of "tone" things can assume. And that may be funny coming from me who is very tone deaf to social things like that, but ya know.

And that'll be my piece on this, my one concern has been resolved and cleared up. I wish you luck either way, Cheers.

 

[Mad_Gadfly]

you then proceed to @ everyone in the announcements to direct them to the political stuff,

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Members of the chat were inactive. Out of those that were active, they were comfortable. I forgot the inactives were members of the discord. Since you brought this up, I locked the political channel and now you can only access it if you ask to be included. The channel was new when you left, so I hadn't gotten around to adjusting the permissions.

I read your entire post when I first responded. I responded according to what I felt were valid points that should be raised in response. If you feel I misunderstood something, contact me on discord. If you'd like to say something about how you feel the Playero situation should be handled, you may either bring it up on this thread or talk to me on discord. This thread is for discussion on the Playero issue, so if you have personal issues about how I should handle feedback and manage a discord server, hit me up on discord instead of here. I worry it may distract from the intended subject.

 

[NebulaePrimo]

I'm a little late to the party, but I think I'll add some stuff. I've basically never rped with the family other than once or twice, so I'll just run through some points I've thought of and heard from the perspective of an outsider.

Most characters should not reasonably be expected to trust the Playero family. The family "makes the news"/becomes the subject of public discussion when one or more of them either commit a crime or are publically defending themselves against an accusation of committing a crime. The family also has a reputation for backstabbing and betraying those people they make deals with. Whether or not these accusations are false or overblown or whatever doesn't matter. The family has backed itself into a corner where it can be reasonably assumed that they would do a bad thing.

You'll notice I'm saying "the family" here and that's because the Playero family members who don't do crime don't really speak out against those who do and/or have any kind of public presence in the same way the criminals do. As a side note, I will also mention that I've seen quite a few people get confused by the distinction between the Playero and Amaya family. To people who don't really rp with them, they can appear to be very similar and the fact that they're so intertwined doesn't help with that.

When it comes to the redemption arc, I assume the family and criminal members of the family have apologized at some point, but there are a lot of forums posts from I think Florence and they all kinda blend together after a while. But nobles and other important characters are justifiably skeptical of the families given their history and current reputation. With more high-profile acts than some of the current criminal organizations (congrats on not getting a Playero executed already btw), and notices from Crookback that even they don't want the family, it's certainly going to be difficult to get that redemption arc action.

My suggestion here? Have the non-criminal Playeros take centre stage, and make sure the newly-named part of the family never does anything bad ever or the re-brand won't be believable. Have the family get in "the news" for doing good things instead of bad things, however you do that.

 

[Acosmism]

I'm too busy to read through the whole post and its comments but I did want to bring one thing up. When others help you and you give them no benefit back, they don't want to help you anymore. The Scion was an ally to house Playero for a while and we tried helping you mainly because I felt bad but I got rid of that connection because it literally did nothing for us besides making us look dumb, to put it bluntly, as put by other people -- these are not just my words, they are others too. So courtesy to those who you call your allies is a start. Giving other people benefits gives them something to come back to. Do consider bringing more benefits to the table next time you want help from someone -- and if you have nothing to give, reflect on how you're playing and how you can gain.

For example, instead of offering someone regals to do a job since they have absolutely no value in-game anymore why not offer a bodyguard? Approach a weaker-looking character who can be slinky and have them spy for you, in return giving them a bodyguard to make sure they don't get beat up since they can't fend for themselves. That brings more roleplay to the table and there's more value to player interaction than a blind handful of currency that has no meaning.