1.9, The Combat Update...

What are your thoughts on the update?


  • Total voters
    88
The reasons I hate this update:
  • Adds a glider just to make the game easier (In case it wasn't easy enough already)
  • Adds duel wielding (In my opinion belongs in a mod)
  • Makes PvP even more ping based, despite what people choose to believe (good for me, terrible for all my European buddies)
  • Adds ender fruit (Don't know what those are called) and last I saw you could use those to randomly teleport after consumption
  • Adds more OP enchantments such as frost walker (which can somewhat allow griefing if used a certain way) and just flat out make the game easier
  • Shields make archery a non-viable option in PvP as well
  • People are so tanky now that the only way to kill people is with traps
Overall no unique features that I haven't already seen in a mod, and makes the game feel less like Minecraft and more like a wannabe terraria.
 
Yeah didn't even think about normal gold apples... They're buffed quite a bit in 1.9, to the point that we could literally just chug a couple and add a few minutes to our life... Honestly I don't think it's even worth updating to 1.9. There's really not that many non-combat changes, and creating plugins to make workarounds for everything 1.9 is going to f*ck up would take ages. 1.9 would really only affect pvpers, and since the vast majority of pvpers don't want the changes 1.9 brings, I think it would be all-around negative consequences for updating to 1.9, with little, if any, positive ones.
The problem with that idea, what if a 1.10 is super great? Massive would have to update to 1.9 to get to all the new features new updates have to offer.
 
The problem with that idea, what if a 1.10 is super great? Massive would have to update to 1.9 to get to all the new features new updates have to offer.
I'd say cross that bridge when we come to it. (Probably in 2 or so years looking at minecraft's update rate as of the last couple updates).
 
So I went and played around with the latest snapshot, and here are some things I noticed.
  • The off hand slot can be used for almost anything. Shield? Yep. Potions? Yep. Food? Yep. A bow? Yep. This means that in your main hand you can be using your axe or sword, whatever you prefer, and then in your offhand can be either a bow or a shield. Someone running away from you? Quickly switch to your offhand and shoot their ass.
  • Shields only block arrows when you are actively right clicking. This means that if it is in your offhand, you have to be right clicking, and thus not attack. If it's in your hotbar, you have to be on the slot and right clicking, this means that anyone that chooses to block with their shield also isn't putting out any damage.
  • There are tons of new arrows. Arrows of strength. Arrows of slowness. Arrows of weakness. Now, this might conflict with traits, since you can spec to be a full damage dealer with your main hand weapon, and then use slow and harming arrows on your bow to essentially get the same trait effect. The way I see it, is if you want to use inventory slots for those arrows, then go ahead. That's one less potion you can't carry.
  • People can now run even more interesting combinations than before. Feel like you can rely on your shield a bit more to take some of the damage? Drop that absorption II trait and use a shield. Want more defense? Pick up a shield and run your same traits, or drop a damage trait and pick up a defensive trait. Want to be pure tank? Pick up a shield and pure defensive traits.
  • There is a new enchant called mending. It uses Vanilla XP, the same stuff you use for enchanting, to repair your armor automatically. Put mending on all your armor, go grind in a darkoom, and it'll auto repair your armor. Or put it on all your armor, grind out tons of XP, and then slap piece after piece of armor and watch the durability go back up.
I don't ever think you can jump to conclusions when it comes to updates and MassiveCraft. We've done it before, and we were all wrong, because we're all still here playing and PVPing. MassiveCraft by definition is different in all aspects from any other server, and PVP is no exception. We have a plugin that is the lifeblood of PVP on MassiveCraft, that alters damage and damage resistance greatly. You cannot go into single player and expect the same damage in MassiveCraft.

[Note: Snapshots are snapshots, a snap of what is currently being developed. Some things might not make it to the final 1.9 update.]
 
So I went and played around with the latest snapshot, and here are some things I noticed.
  • The off hand slot can be used for almost anything. Shield? Yep. Potions? Yep. Food? Yep. A bow? Yep. This means that in your main hand you can be using your axe or sword, whatever you prefer, and then in your offhand can be either a bow or a shield. Someone running away from you? Quickly switch to your offhand and shoot their ass.
  • Shields only block arrows when you are actively right clicking. This means that if it is in your offhand, you have to be right clicking, and thus not attack. If it's in your hotbar, you have to be on the slot and right clicking, this means that anyone that chooses to block with their shield also isn't putting out any damage.
  • There are tons of new arrows. Arrows of strength. Arrows of slowness. Arrows of weakness. Now, this might conflict with traits, since you can spec to be a full damage dealer with your main hand weapon, and then use slow and harming arrows on your bow to essentially get the same trait effect. The way I see it, is if you want to use inventory slots for those arrows, then go ahead. That's one less potion you can't carry.
  • People can now run even more interesting combinations than before. Feel like you can rely on your shield a bit more to take some of the damage? Drop that absorption II trait and use a shield. Want more defense? Pick up a shield and run your same traits, or drop a damage trait and pick up a defensive trait. Want to be pure tank? Pick up a shield and pure defensive traits.
  • There is a new enchant called mending. It uses Vanilla XP, the same stuff you use for enchanting, to repair your armor automatically. Put mending on all your armor, go grind in a darkoom, and it'll auto repair your armor. Or put it on all your armor, grind out tons of XP, and then slap piece after piece of armor and watch the durability go back up.
I don't ever think you can jump to conclusions when it comes to updates and MassiveCraft. We've done it before, and we were all wrong, because we're all still here playing and PVPing. MassiveCraft by definition is different in all aspects from any other server, and PVP is no exception. We have a plugin that is the lifeblood of PVP on MassiveCraft, that alters damage and damage resistance greatly. You cannot go into single player and expect the same damage in MassiveCraft.

[Note: Snapshots are snapshots, a snap of what is currently being developed. Some things might not make it to the final 1.9 update.]
Did you actually PvP at all in 1.9? Because honestly it just sounds like you hit some mobs around. I pvped with it, and sure all of that's possible, but you left out the fact that there's really not any more "strategy" or "skill" in 1.9. 1.9 essentially just adds a whole lot of features but removes the most important, ie strafing, accuracy, etc.

As a side note, mending is only available from chests in places like dungeons, mineshafts, etc, you can't get it from just enchanting so it may or may not actually be on Massive as staff would have to specifically add it.
 
I must be the only one happy about these changes. I always hated the chaotic click fest that was/is Minecraft pvp.

No insane clicking, no block-attacking, no one shot kills. Thanks Mojang :)
 
I must be the only one happy about these changes. I always hated the chaotic click fest that was/is Minecraft pvp.

No insane clicking, no block-attacking, no one shot kills. Thanks Mojang :)

I've always hated that the fastest clickers do the most damage too. Also, to PvPers saying 'this update only effects us' remember that you folks effect everyone else on the server through your aggressive actions. This will effect you and through you EVERYONE else on the server. There has never once been an update that only touched a single group of people.

I say we let MassiveCraft see what it can do with 1.9, and go from there. Don't deny 1.9 it's chance to prove your assessment wrong. And if it really does ruin MassivePvP... well, there's no rule saying the server can't Downdate back to 1.8.
 
Did you actually PvP at all in 1.9? Because honestly it just sounds like you hit some mobs around. I pvped with it, and sure all of that's possible, but you left out the fact that there's really not any more "strategy" or "skill" in 1.9. 1.9 essentially just adds a whole lot of features but removes the most important, ie strafing, accuracy, etc.

As a side note, mending is only available from chests in places like dungeons, mineshafts, etc, you can't get it from just enchanting so it may or may not actually be on Massive as staff would have to specifically add it.
I didn't PVP with the snapshot. My intentions were to explore the features being offered, and not how they performed in an environment completely separate and void of all MassiveCraft related plugins that greatly alter damage. There is no point in making assumptions based off of vanilla PVP in the newest update, because they won't hold true on MassiveCraft.

I'm also very confused on how you or why you claim 1.9 removes strategy. You claim it removes strafing and accuracy? Unless I'm missing something big, you can always strafe, as the act of strafing is to circle an opponent, and accuracy is still relevant.
 
FYI there have never been one shot kills in MC unless you're counting sharpness 5 diamond swords against naked players. One shot kills were only on MassiveCraft for a while because traits were glitched to hell.

Hmm I seem to remember there being a certain build that allowed for one shot kills or maybe it was two shot. Either way, I'm glad that fights won't be ending in seconds now.
 
Hmm I seem to remember there being a certain build that allowed for one shot kills or maybe it was two shot. Either way, I'm glad that fights won't be ending in seconds now.

Traits builds and traits themselves aren't in vanilla minecraft (FYI) so it doesn't really belong in a discussion about 1.9, is the point I was trying to make.
 
REMEMBER!!!
If the general consensus is that these changes are detrimental to certain parts of massive I'm sure the staff can compromise a solution.
The majority of massivecraft are roleplayers. Even premiums have a large amount of RPers, and all the RPers think that "dual wielding and flying sounds cool". It may be cool for roleplaying but i'm 100% sure this update will ruin massivecraft pvp if its put in.
 
Traits builds and traits themselves aren't in vanilla minecraft (FYI) so it doesn't really belong in a discussion about 1.9, is the point I was trying to make.

Well I was talking about the server, so your FYI wasn't necessary.

Also I think it makes sense that we consider the server we all play on when discussing whether we like the changes in 1.9 or not.
 
The thing about this update is it does do a lot to make PvP fights more than click fast, run, eat a notch apple, then go back. Through this update Notch apples are no longer obtainable, you can not jump through a player in order to get behind them, your click speed does not matter as much, alternative weapons like axes and hoes are more viable (With proper enchants for the hoe), and in all, there is just so much more planning that needs to go into a pvp fight. Also refering back to the "ruining" of the pvp community on this server, it is not very great. As a new player before I knew I was able to be tracked from Dynmap I was killed on 5 separate occasions and every single time I had lost everything I had gotten. Each time it was by a premium player in full enchanted diamond armor that hit me twice and killed me. So if the PvP community does have to suffer a bit I do not think I mind because it seems to me it can be rather toxic to new players.
 
The thing about this update is it does do a lot to make PvP fights more than click fast, run, eat a notch apple, then go back. Through this update Notch apples are no longer obtainable, you can not jump through a player in order to get behind them, your click speed does not matter as much, alternative weapons like axes and hoes are more viable (With proper enchants for the hoe), and in all, there is just so much more planning that needs to go into a pvp fight. Also refering back to the "ruining" of the pvp community on this server, it is not very great. As a new player before I knew I was able to be tracked from Dynmap I was killed on 5 separate occasions and every single time I had lost everything I had gotten. Each time it was by a premium player in full enchanted diamond armor that hit me twice and killed me. So if the PvP community does have to suffer a bit I do not think I mind because it seems to me it can be rather toxic to new players.
God apples are disabled on Massive anyways
 
Having personally used the pvp for 1.9 I can say that it adds more skill to pvp. Instead of clicking repeatedly you have to think if the back to back hit is better or to wait for a larger strike. I see this as the realism update more than anything else. It makes more sense that several repeated attacks will do less damage for each one than one charged up strike. One interesting thing I noticed with the use of shield and sword is that you can block an attack and then parry dealing more damage than a normal hit. I believe that without enchants a diamond sword can take down half of the health of a player with full iron armor, though I don't know if this changed since the last time I used it or if it was a glitch. Either way this update adds skill and logic to pvp so that when it comes down to it a more skilled pvper can take down a more equipped pvper. Also for duel wielding its best to use a shield more than anything, I suppose a bow or potion can work but if you aren't used to the new pvp and accidentally "block" with anything but a shield it could end badly. But ultimately its player choice, the duel wield adds more options to pvp rather than just a sword or axe. Though I'm not the biggest fan of the cool downs and such I have to say it is highly beneficial for pvp as I stated it adds skill.
 
So. If they are making it more realistic, what next? Remove enchants? Remove potions? Remove diamond armor? Since they are removing the magical apples, who's to say the rest of this stuff wont go as well?
 
They wont remove them.. I'm talking about the update itself not massive or anything like that. The update makes Minecraft more realistic in a very basic sense, I didn't mean literally. Its the best way to explain the more complex combat style emerging from 1.9. Even then why would they remove enchants and the such? It would be an illogical decision from a marketing standpoint and make the server bland. The enchants are important. All that I am saying is that the 1.9 update would add skill to it. Also making it more capable of a skilled player to easily take down a more equipped player.
 
They wont remove them.. I'm talking about the update itself not massive or anything like that. The update makes Minecraft more realistic in a very basic sense, I didn't mean literally. Its the best way to explain the more complex combat style emerging from 1.9. Even then why would they remove enchants and the such? It would be an illogical decision from a marketing standpoint and make the server bland. The enchants are important. All that I am saying is that the 1.9 update would add skill to it. Also making it more capable of a skilled player to easily take down a more equipped player.
No offense, but I don't think you know what you're talking about. More realism does not mean more skill. Due to the attack cooldown, fights become pretty much trading hits, and who wins eventually just comes down to who has the better ping. That is of course, if you sit around for 15 minutes in order to actually finish a fight, which a fight very well could last the way 1.9 pvp is currently setup.
 
No offense, but I don't think you know what you're talking about. More realism does not mean more skill. Due to the attack cooldown, fights become pretty much trading hits, and who wins eventually just comes down to who has the better ping. That is of course, if you sit around for 15 minutes in order to actually finish a fight, which a fight very well could last the way 1.9 pvp is currently setup.

I assure you I know exactly what I am talking about. Realism does mean skill. An experienced swordsman can take out one who doesn't know the craft. Though as I stated previously I mean realistic very, very loosely. Playing on 1.9 I can also assure that it is much more complex than trading hits and that fights last a lot less than 15 minutes. In fact I am in the optimal position to state what I know about the pvp of 1.9. The only statement I can possibly agree with is your statement regarding ping.
 
I assure you I know exactly what I am talking about. Realism does mean skill. An experienced swordsman can take out one who doesn't know the craft. Though as I stated previously I mean realistic very, very loosely. Playing on 1.9 I can also assure that it is much more complex than trading hits and that fights last a lot less than 15 minutes. In fact I am in the optimal position to state what I know about the pvp of 1.9. The only statement I can possibly agree with is your statement regarding ping.
I fail to see how realism means more skill. I mean, look at GTA V. Pretty sure it's possibly one of the most made fun of games of last year, because it just went overboard on realism. (Didn't actually play it, just going off what I've heard from other people, sorry if I said something incorrect :p).

As for taking down someone with better gear, that's 1. Not really a problem on massive anyways, it's ridiculously cheap, and 2. It's quite possible. Honestly it's more possible now than it will be in 1.9. Let me put it like this: On other PvP servers, I can quite literally get 20 combos on people who aren't particularly good at pvp. (Don't generally do that on massive because there's a higher ratio of people around my skill level). In 1.9, however at most I've been able to get 3 or 4 hit combos, and those are rather rare. Other than that it's basically back and forth since you have more than enough time to aim your attack before you actually hit.

As for the length of fights, I'm not really sure what type of pvp you were doing, but with a full inventory of instant healths that's more than possible.
 
What if staff added a trait that removed the attack cooldown?
I may be wrong on this so take it at face value because I don't remember the source I heard it from but I hear that the Haste status effect will now affect attack speed so Massivecrafts Haste and Haste 2 traits might actually become useful for PVP.

But again for the life of me I can't remember where I heard that so take my words for what they are.
 
Well... I really don't like the new Ellytra (I made a 1.9 lab so props to meh :D). They wouldn't balance things as far as survival, imagine a group of migrating bir- I mean players... And dual wielding was good, then tots next level.
 
Disclaimer: Excuse me if I don't voice my opinion about the 1.9 features directly. If you are only interested in those, skip my post.

This update, like any other update there was before it, will change things. It's natural that people make conclusions based on their assumptions or own testings, but a point many of you have realized is the following:

No one can predict how exactly the update is going to play out on MassiveCraft. Neither you players nor the tech-staff who make the plugins can make an elaborate assumption to how the mechanical changes will affect gameplay. We have seen updates come and have prepared ourselfs (and the plugins) for them, but we have learned over the past updates that doing big changes BEFORE an update has occurred is doing more harm than anything else.

What is likely to happen?
Out of experience, MassiveCraft will update to 1.9 as soon as the core server software is updated. Since 1.9 is a fairly big update, this will take time for the Spigot team and also for us, who have to adapt some minor things in our plugins that directly depend on minecraft rather than Spigot. A feature that poses direct harm to the server is likely to be disabled for a certain time (e.g: when withers were introduced, they were disabled because of their power) but I don't see one that is likely to be removed.

Then the new features will be on the server and all of us can let it sink, use it and after (preferably after a test phase) voice our opinions on the forums. The Team will then have to make a decision, based on evidence, logs and eventually pols. If it is necessary to make adaptions to some of our inhouse plugins, the tech-department will make the needed changes. But all this happens AFTER the update has taken place.

TL;DR: No one can say how it will work out, we will have to try it and it will be decided on what to do later.
 
Disclaimer: Excuse me if I don't voice my opinion about the 1.9 features directly. If you are only interested in those, skip my post.

This update, like any other update there was before it, will change things. It's natural that people make conclusions based on their assumptions or own testings, but a point many of you have realized is the following:

No one can predict how exactly the update is going to play out on MassiveCraft. Neither you players nor the tech-staff who make the plugins can make an elaborate assumption to how the mechanical changes will affect gameplay. We have seen updates come and have prepared ourselfs (and the plugins) for them, but we have learned over the past updates that doing big changes BEFORE an update has occurred is doing more harm than anything else.

What is likely to happen?
Out of experience, MassiveCraft will update to 1.9 as soon as the core server software is updated. Since 1.9 is a fairly big update, this will take time for the Spigot team and also for us, who have to adapt some minor things in our plugins that directly depend on minecraft rather than Spigot. A feature that poses direct harm to the server is likely to be disabled for a certain time (e.g: when withers were introduced, they were disabled because of their power) but I don't see one that is likely to be removed.

Then the new features will be on the server and all of us can let it sink, use it and after (preferably after a test phase) voice our opinions on the forums. The Team will then have to make a decision, based on evidence, logs and eventually pols. If it is necessary to make adaptions to some of our inhouse plugins, the tech-department will make the needed changes. But all this happens AFTER the update has taken place.

TL;DR: No one can say how it will work out, we will have to try it and it will be decided on what to do later.
Rip pvp community
 
pvp is going to be alot more complex
it is gonna be more complex, but i think thats a good thing. in the same way some of you think 1.9 is gonna ruin pvp, i think massive (might)
ruin 1.9. just cause pvp is gonna change dosent mean that its gonna be ruined. basically only spamclicking will be removed. thats all. so far very few of the major pvpers ive asked have tried pvp on the snapshot, much less rly practiced it. i would definitely recommend practicing it. most of you major pvpers are probably afraid a bunch o noobs are gonna be the new "unstoppable" pvpers, but i think what made you so good at pvp is you where dedicated to practicing and learning. if you put the amount of dedication into the new snapshot that u did to 1.8 and earier, no noob is gonna come in and kill all yalls.

also frankly i dont want massive to disable it right off the bat. i hope they will at least give it a few months
 
I'm really curious to see what's going to happen to massive PvP honestly. The cooldown is going to cause problems either way really. It's either a ton of coding to work around it, with trait balancing or like you suggested, a new plugin all together. Or leave it as it is and have a really slow, not-at-all fun Pvp setting where nobody ever dies, since people can only attack once a second against people that usually have 14-18 hearts, resistance traits, buffed food that restores health super fast when eaten, and a ton of health potions for the rare occasion that they actually get close to dieing.

simple solution: make weapons do more dmg all around. simply make a plugin that increases the damage dealt. you may also tweak the ratio of cooldown time to damage. for instance make it so you get an OK amount of dmg-per-second if you spamclick. you get maximum dmg-per-sec if you wait half the cooldown time, and you get a dmg-per-sec equal to spamclicking if you wait all the cooldown time. not that i said dmg-per-sec, not dmg. which means that waiting all the cooldown time isnt = to the dmg dealt if you dont wait at all, but overall the dmg dealt will be the same over the course of a battle. i think this solution would please everybody, so you can chose whether to use 1.9 or 1.8 pvp, but a balance of both is best.
 
I, just like many others, like things the way they are, and don't want it to change, for fear that it might not be the same. In reality however, I believe that when the update comes, we will not hate it as much as we had thought we would. I actually think that some features, i.e. Shields, Duel Wielding, FRICKEN GLIDERZ, would be rather neat. I am also partial to MC being rather plain, and basic, how it is, and think that this stuff is cool, but might belong in mods more than Vanilla. Who knows though, we can't really predict how we will like something before we try it, can we?
 
I have a guess that may or may not have been thrown out, but:

What if McMMO skills are changed with the update so that, for example, a higher axe stat means faster axe swings, or a higher sword stat means faster sword swings? Imagine that, at a certain sword stat, you could dual-wield a certain weapon, and /only/ then. Just throwing that out there - McMMO devs (as far as I know) haven't announced how they're going to respond to the 1.9 changes yet.

PS, shame on markcraft for Necro'ing a half-month-old thread. :P
@markcraft27
 
Ugh... Geez, when someone brings up 1.9 all I hear about is all the crap that these "Good" PvPers have against it, namely how their "perfected" fast clicking no longer works.
Well... just to be one of the only people Archers to point this out: does anyone recall the really really old update of Minecraft in which they basically debuffed bows by making drawback a thing? No? have I really been playing this game this long... Oh well, let's take a look at 1.9, oh wait...I see something similar there. Anyone else see it? Bows lost their abilities to be spammed for max damage and now melee weapons are losing their ability to be spam clicked into oblivion to kill people in combos that keep em off the ground and other crap. Oh wait... Shields block arrows... -_- Well, Minecraft updates just love debuffing my favorite weapon; first the drawback, then invisibility potions, and now shields. Deal with it, those who primarily use a bow will be having a tougher time as you quickly figure out how to time your shields to block our arrows making us useless for a period of time.
And yeah, I know about the arrow types, but seriously it's gonna be hard for us archers to get a hit off of the shield wielding tanks that are gonna take over the melee combat of most Minecraft PvP. Dual wielding's cool and all, but I'd rather have a shield than another sword if I was forced into a melee situation.

As far as 1.9 as a whole goes, I like adapting my playing style to new things, so I'm mildly excited. Only mildly because I know how much whining we're gonna hear from the salty PvPers who can't cope with the change.
 
Ugh... Geez, when someone brings up 1.9 all I hear about is all the crap that these "Good" PvPers have against it, namely how their "perfected" fast clicking no longer works.
Well... just to be one of the only people Archers to point this out: does anyone recall the really really old update of Minecraft in which they basically debuffed bows by making drawback a thing? No? have I really been playing this game this long... Oh well, let's take a look at 1.9, oh wait...I see something similar there. Anyone else see it? Bows lost their abilities to be spammed for max damage and now melee weapons are losing their ability to be spam clicked into oblivion to kill people in combos that keep em off the ground and other crap. Oh wait... Shields block arrows... -_- Well, Minecraft updates just love debuffing my favorite weapon; first the drawback, then invisibility potions, and now shields. Deal with it, those who primarily use a bow will be having a tougher time as you quickly figure out how to time your shields to block our arrows making us useless for a period of time.
And yeah, I know about the arrow types, but seriously it's gonna be hard for us archers to get a hit off of the shield wielding tanks that are gonna take over the melee combat of most Minecraft PvP. Dual wielding's cool and all, but I'd rather have a shield than another sword if I was forced into a melee situation.

As far as 1.9 as a whole goes, I like adapting my playing style to new things, so I'm mildly excited. Only mildly because I know how much whining we're gonna hear from the salty PvPers who can't cope with the change.
So basically you're saying that because what you enjoy was removed/nerfed what we enjoy has to be removed/nerfed?