Archived Removal Of Lwc Fee

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X0N3333

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Lwc is a good plugin, its got good features and nice commands but this fee that has been coded into the plugin is not.
Protecting your stuff from thievery should be free, protection plugins are there to protect all of your stuff no make you pay money to protect them.
If you must pay for every locked chest and cannot move them without paying I don't think that's a very good system.
If you were to move to another faction you will have to pay to relock those chests all over again meaning if you are going to move somewhere any time soon there's no point in locking them. e.g if you are someone who moves a lot like a hermit every few months then you will have to pay for your 20 or so chests every single time you move. Another thing about a price for lwc, it makes it immensely easy for people to go from faction to faction stealing peoples stuff from chests they cannot afford to lock, in deadbolt you were stupid not to lock them but with lwc you can't help but leave behind a few chests unlocked because of the price.
I was once stolen from by some dude who managed to open a chest in a officer room, it was silly for me to not deadbolt them so I decided to deadbolt all of them so no stealing can occur.
But if this was to happen with lwc and you cannot afford to lock them all there's nothing you can do to protect your own chests. Take a look at any popular protection plugin, it lets you lock stuff for free because its your stuff and there should be no obstacle to stop you from locking your own stuff.
It's eight days left till all deadbolts expire and still most of my stuff is deadbolted, I certainly am not the only one who doing this just to avoid having to pay.
We haven't heard much about the removal of this free so I am creating a thread so we as a community can decide whether we ditch it or keep it.
 
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Thortuna said:
Number 1. Lwc is here to stay. We are NOT getting deadbolt back and LWC is the way we have chosen.
Number 2. Me and Gethelp have about 4800 Lwc's and we paid for all 4795 of them. I don't see the issue, in real life if you want your stuff to be safe you pay the bank to keep it safe or you buy a safe to put it in. If you dont like it then start using your faction permissions to guard your stuff. Use /f access and limit the chunk to the player who has his stuff there. The lwc's is not the only way to guard your things.
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Yeah, but it is quicker, easier, and we all know who deh lazy people are in this world, and that's most likely the ones sitting in a chair/bed and playing massive or browsing the forums at this second <3

TO THE LAZY PEOPLE OF THE WORLD I REJOICE
 
listen, the newbs have ways to earn tonnes of money by trading/quests/actually doing work/and murdering or being mercenary, they get 5 free locks, but I agree with taxing based on how much money they earned that week,
 
Thortuna said:
Number 1. Lwc is here to stay. We are NOT getting deadbolt back and LWC is the way we have chosen.
Number 2. Me and Gethelp have about 4800 Lwc's and we paid for all 4795 of them. I don't see the issue, in real life if you want your stuff to be safe you pay the bank to keep it safe or you buy a safe to put it in. If you dont like it then start using your faction permissions to guard your stuff. Use /f access and limit the chunk to the player who has his stuff there. The lwc's is not the only way to guard your things.
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There was never anything said about removing lwc since deadbolt it is buggy as heck.
The thing is how does making the server more real improve it? Imagine if all of a sudden armour slowed you down and there was no portals nor warps. Realism makes no game any more better not to mention that during the medeival times people didn't really store their stuff that wasn't money outside their home, that is a modern thing.
If you must use factions to protect your stuff instead of using an actual protection plugin then there is something at fault with the protection plugin. With the fee lwc is completely pointless since you can't lock most of your possessions when its intended to do so. If you want to organise your stuff by types of items like stone, cobble and wood you're going to be punished for doing so because of this fee. A quite often example is if someone has 20 chests and can only lock 10 of them, because of the fee he can't stop people stealing stuff from the other 10 chests. Many would say "Sell that stuff" but really I implore of you to ask your self, Why should I sell my hard earned items for something that was free?
In all honesty nothing justifies the reason for the price of locking a chest, nothing at all. Take for example locking a door, it is pointless since you can just add a button to it and save 10 regals.
If people are trying to avoid using the protection plugin because of the fee then said protection plugin it not doing its purpose in the slightest.
 
KSTRandom
I don't disagree about needing a money sink with the amount of money that is being pooled into the system. Nor am I saying complete removal of the fee is the way to go. So talking about putting words into another's mouth, I guess we're both doing it.
You're saying that real world economics isn't the same thing, I do agree in a way. I think the basic economic laws works in a similar fashion, albeit they are very construed and changes can have a way faster impact due to a much smaller system. However, you're talking about inflation and deflation of the system, and unless you acknowledge real world economics basic laws, nothing about LWC fee, or the pooling of money, or anything will affect the system, because as you midly put it, the market's being run by a lot of people that don't understand economics.
And I agree in that sentiment, there are a lot of bad decisions being found in the market, I've made my small fortune on this server because I do understand economics. And what I know from real world economics have most certainly been applied to my behaviour on the server. It's worked well so far.

Thortuna
Sure, when you put money in the bank there's generally a standard yearly fee for having an account there, but that's a one time fee and it doesn't increase in size as your bank statement gets larger. In fact, the more money you have, the more money you earn since there's generally an earned interest. So I don't think you can really compare having a bank protect your money with LWC protecting your stuff.

If anything, if you want it to compare it to the real world, it would be storage lockers. Which has a monthly fee. And I sure hope you don't suggest LWC becomes a monthly cost, do you?



Overall I think the LWC fee hits both the right people, and the wrong people if you want to drain money from the system. The right people are those with massive storage, those that are generally wealthy. It's, in my opinion, good to drain a bit of extra wealth to even out the servers economy.
The wrong people are for example those that are new and have to move a lot before finding a proper home or faction. Or those that gets kicked out of a faction or has to leave it for some other reason, not only do they lose their homes, but they might not even be able to afford moving their stuff away from the faction.

Two solution I've seen addresses both of these in a good manner, keeping the wealthy having to pay extra, and the poor being able to keep some basic protected storage:
1. Weekly renewal of X amount of free lockers up to a max of 5. The code for free lockers is already in the system as we all got 5 to start with, so this would probably be the easiest implementation.
2. Refunding of removed locks. The code for this is not in the system, so would be much harder to implement, but would help with having to move to another location.

Neither of those solutions removes the fee, but helps those that suffers the most from the fee.
 
@Nordbane
I agree with you on that. Its good to have come to an understanding. I agree that real world economics have a bearing on Massive Economics, but they dont work exactly as they would in the real world.

I think the sitation is most comparable to buying locks. Locks cost money. Especially for a ton of chests and doors
 
Voted ditch the fee. Just gonna have to agree with the majority. You dont have to make a fee to reduce the problem, when there is no problem (in this case inflation.) not only that i personally think there are more cons than pros. While i havnet been able to log onto massive for maybe a month or too, (meaning i havent tried out the lwc) i can already tell that most of the massive community is being affected in the wrong way from the fee. In other words suffering more than they are prospering. This is just my opinion

X0N3333
 
Nordhbane said:
Overall I think the LWC fee hits both the right people, and the wrong people if you want to drain money from the system. The right people are those with massive storage, those that are generally wealthy. It's, in my opinion, good to drain a bit of extra wealth to even out the servers economy.
The wrong people are for example those that are new and have to move a lot before finding a proper home or faction. Or those that gets kicked out of a faction or has to leave it for some other reason, not only do they lose their homes, but they might not even be able to afford moving their stuff away from the faction.

Two solution I've seen addresses both of these in a good manner, keeping the wealthy having to pay extra, and the poor being able to keep some basic protected storage:
1. Weekly renewal of X amount of free lockers up to a max of 5. The code for free lockers is already in the system as we all got 5 to start with, so this would probably be the easiest implementation.
2. Refunding of removed locks. The code for this is not in the system, so would be much harder to implement, but would help with having to move to another location.

Neither of those solutions removes the fee, but helps those that suffers the most from the fee.
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Another type of people who this effects badly are people who don't have a dark room or don't have enough time to play
With a weekly amount of free locks then everyone would just use those free locks instead of buying them, effectively making the fee useless. This would be hard to code if its not in the original lwc code.
Refunding removed blocks, this would take a while to code and during that time of being coded lwc's fee would have to either be removed or kept. Not only that but still with the refund nothing justifies the fee.
Your suggestions are good but sadly they will take a while to code, I have chosen to outright ditch or keep the fee since both options take minimal time.
 
Some things are similar to real life and others are not. With the fee you have to think about what you should put in locked chests. If you choose to lock chests that contain dirt then thats your choice. In my country if i had a chest of stuff or valuables i would buy a safe depositbox to store my items, wich is what i was talking about when i said you have to pay to keep your items secure.
 
Thortuna said:
Number 1. Lwc is here to stay. We are NOT getting deadbolt back and LWC is the way we have chosen.
Number 2. Me and Gethelp have about 4800 Lwc's and we paid for all 4795 of them. I don't see the issue, in real life if you want your stuff to be safe you pay the bank to keep it safe or you buy a safe to put it in. If you dont like it then start using your faction permissions to guard your stuff. Use /f access and limit the chunk to the player who has his stuff there. The lwc's is not the only way to guard your things.
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AurelienBela. said:
I think you should BUY the "Locks" Like in RP..actual locks..and when you lock a door you lose a lock, but if you unlock it you can take the lock OFF and use it somewhere else. Say someone starts with 5 locks when the join the server and spend 10 regals (or whatever the price is/will be) to buy more locks. This way when/if I move I won't have to spend another 10 regals.
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I know this was already said that it could take a whole other plugin and we simply do not have the time to have these sidetracks, but what if I brought this up for debate and discussion? This seems to make a bit more sense where I don't have to spend 10 regals every time I remodeled the room or wanted to move my storages; I wouldn't have to pay every time, just pay 10 regals per "lock" and I'd have a lock count. For example, a new player would /lwc count and get the message Locks: 5 Used:0because by default, you start out with 5 locks. And every time I locked a chest/door/etc I would get the message -10 regals|lock and next time I did /lwc count (or whatever command) I would get Locks:6 Used:1 because I have 6 locks in total, and one is being used. Do you think this would be something possible??? Or at least, do you think it makes a bit more sense? Thanks <3
 
Thortuna said:
Some things are similar to real life and others are not. With the fee you have to think about what you should put in locked chests. If you choose to lock chests that contain dirt then thats your choice. In my country if i had a chest of stuff or valuables i would buy a safe depositbox to store my items, wich is what i was talking about when i said you have to pay to keep your items secure.
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Still regardless that does not in the slightest justify the reason of the fee. With this fee you have to put all your stuff in a couple chests rather than having all your stuff spanning multiple chests each organised. Not only that but it makes moving your chests even one block immensely expensive, so much so that I don't see the point in locking chests if you're ever going to move in your lifetime. A fee for owning a chests is not the way to go to stop inflation which is done by making everyone have to pay for a protection that can be totally free. It is quite crystal clear that the majority oppose it for good reason(Nearly 90 votes). You can say what you want but that will never change the fact that the majority oppose it.
 
I have not read any of the above though I don't find 10 regals per chest expensive.
I find that players have abused the chests allot before and have had over 10 chests deadbolted in their homes that lock even wood...
Our faction does not seem to have had any issues with the new system in fact we are coming out with ideas to benefit the faction with it.
items that faction members want to store that are valuable but is an item that can take allot of space to horde can be stashed in vaults inside a chunk that only officers of the faction can access. Each member can have a max of 5 double chests.
I really find that the old system of deadbolt with signs was visually obstructing and would only leave behind a big mess if faction members where to take off and leave their chests behind leaving us to bother staff with tickets so we can take the chests down.
though I agree with moving chests. Instead of paying to lock a chests you chould be paying for an extra lockable chests.
if you say do /lock buy 3 then you would spend 30 regals on 3 chest locks which you can move to new chests if you wish by unlocking the previous one.
Same for shops it should not have to cost money to move a lock or edit your shop because of a market value shift.
That would cause you to loose allot of money to edit your shops or loose much more because people are taking advantage of your price or not buying because it is now to high.
chest locks / shops should work like land claim.
 
Thortuna said:
Some things are similar to real life and others are not. With the fee you have to think about what you should put in locked chests. If you choose to lock chests that contain dirt then thats your choice. In my country if i had a chest of stuff or valuables i would buy a safe depositbox to store my items, wich is what i was talking about when i said you have to pay to keep your items secure.
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Deposit boxes (just like storage units) has a recurring fee as well. :) And I don't know many people that pay for deposit boxes for their valuables instead of just keeping them at home, either for display or in a drawer somewhere.

X0N3333 said:
It is quite crystal clear that the majority oppose it for good reason(Nearly 90 votes). You can say what you want but that will never change the fact that the majority oppose it.
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I'm opposed to the fee as the system is set up now. That's why I've voted that. I do however think that with some alterations the fee can be ok. If there had been a 3rd option called "Change the system (explain)" I would have voted for that. It's not as black and white for me.
 
Nordhbane said:
to the fee as the system is set up now. That's why I've voted that. I do however think that with some alterations the fee can be ok. If there had been a 3rd option called "Change the system (explain)" I would have voted for that. It's not as black and white for me.
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The thing is Cayorion can't code a plugin for everything, he has to constantly update and make new plugins a lot(Like mccore).
Not only that but he might not have permission from the plugin owners about making a plugin for it. That is why I choose to have only ditch the fee because I knew Cayorion can't make plugins for everything. Not only that but even with the new new plugins you suggested the lwc fee system would still be kinda broken in terms of why you should lock a chest.
 
Alot of people including me are agreeing, its making us suffer more thank it is making us prosper, and changing it is just too complicated. Ditch the fee
 
X0N3333 said:
It only makes people more poor. It will result in the poor people and noobs becoming affected and even leave the server because of stolen stuff.
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Just like real life government...

As for the LWC I at first didn't like the idea but I think it's not too bad, the only qualm I have with it is that it's quite a high price especially for people who may have trouble getting alot of money and have a considerable amount of chests. I know people say: "You can sell these items and protect them.". However, if you're selling all your items you won't have chests to protect. The amount of people against this show it's unpopular too.

I am trying to be on both sides of the argument and I do this it should remain, but at a price agreeable to everyone, by everyone I mean staff as well as the players.

I liked the idea suggested previously of an averaging of money say it calculates 0.1% of the current players balance so it's not too considerable for new players, however the idea can be overcome by people giving money to a trusted individual and then locking a chest and recieving the money back. If this was implemented and bugs were overcome it'd take a considerable amount of time and fine code.

The only possible way is a fixed sum for everyone such as 5r suggested alot, I have roughly 100 chests and they're all full of building materials and valuables and unique awards and brewing ingredients. Some of these are hard to reobtain and I don't like parting with things. This would cost 1000r for me to protect and I don't have the funds to actually protect all of these. Even if it was 1r it would probably stop people leaving as much chests everywhere too.

In conclusion to this I think it should be kept for a "money sink" but should be lowered to meet everyones satisfaction. It may satisfy some people, but if it satisfies the majority and the people who are already satisfied can live with a slightly lower price to lock chests (I honestly don't see the controversy over 5r a chest rather than 10r) then it should be added. I am not trying to point fingers (I might be though c: ) but I think the staff should listen to the players recent outcry for a change in the pricing for LWC pricing.
 
KyleDinny said:
In conclusion to this I think it should be kept for a "money sink" but should be lowered to meet everyones satisfaction. It may satisfy some people, but if it satisfies the majority and the people who are already satisfied can live with a slightly lower price to lock chests (I honestly don't see the controversy over 5r a chest rather than 10r) then it should be added. I am not trying to point fingers (I might be though c: ) but I think the staff should listen to the players recent outcry for a change in the pricing for LWC pricing.
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I've run a faction for a long time now with people being able to lock their own stuff. I've seen deadbolt abuse at its absolute worse and the same could happen with lwc. Even with the fee there is absolutely no reason to undo a protection. Take my word for it people don't really want to get rid of one of their protections free or not. 98% of the people who left Anglicus left their deadbolts behind rather than breaking them. "You can polish a turd but then its just a shiny turd"-ProJared
Also I would like to point out that the majority wants it gone from the looks of it rather than having it kept or altered.
 
X0N3333 said:
Take my word for it people don't really want to get rid of one of their protections free or not. 98% of the people who left Anglicus left their deadbolts behind rather than breaking them.
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Indeed, this is where a refund would be a better solution than actually removing the fee. With a refund, there's a reason to remove your locks when leaving a faction. So while it would take a bit to code at the moment, it might actually save staff time because they would have to fix old locks a lot less.
 
Nordhbane said:
Indeed, this is where a refund would be a better solution than actually removing the fee. With a refund, there's a reason to remove your locks when leaving a faction.
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Keep in mind Cayorion would have to code this and along with him updating other mods like mccore, massive mobs and other mods he keeps up. Piled up on each other it could take a while for him to do it and the question is it worth it when you could just remove it?
Not only that but even with the refund and the fee it's still not really worth it to lock chests. I would rather have free locks and loads of locks left behind than paid locks and no locks left behind. Instead of having a fee or a refund you could just change the policy of unlocking locks to something like"if this person is no longer in the faction and doesn't own that land or is no longer associated with them any more unlock it" rather than "Wait 20 days for it to expire or ask this unwilling person to travel half way across the world to unlock a chest".
 
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I can see exactly where you're coming from and I can understand the feeling of deadbolts being left everywhere (I am also guilty for 1 or 2 c: ) maybe if the staff are so adamant about keeping said fee for a money sink, they should offer a refund from any removed chests. (If they already do great I don't keep with current events since exams are keeping me from my virtual life too ;c )

I would be happy to see a reduced or wiped price for them though, since deadbolt was not "broken" in the sense it was augmenting the problem of money.

I also hear everyone saying "You should remove prices for houses and shops if you're going to remove price for LWC." I can only disagree with that. It's simply a fact of they've been their since the beginning and are logical to have their otherwise you'd have people running around constantly having a house or a shop without cycles for others to claim a spot. It's different with a chest, they're not limited to certain places and can be moved about at will. The pricing for LWC is clearly effecting alot of people and yes, the minority (from what I see) are for it but the people against it are strongly against it.

My opinion on this is that I don't mind it, I only mind the price for EACH item to protect, it's a big ask for the people with large amounts of items and little money ratios...
KyleDinny said:
However, if you're selling all your items you won't have chests to protect.
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before anyone asks...

If it was compromised or removed it'd be back to a place where everyones happy, I didn't hear people in generic saying they wanted to pay for all of their chests to be locked. Also to people who are complaining without a reason other than they don't want to spend money. Stop. You're lucky you're not limited to 3 chests like on some servers and have to donate for more.

I am trying to be on everyone's side but it proves hard to please everyone on the server and this is what the staff have to take into consideration but I think that the majority are against this.
 
X0N3333 said:
There was never anything said about removing lwc since deadbolt it is buggy as heck.
The thing is how does making the server more real improve it? Imagine if all of a sudden armour slowed you down and there was no portals nor warps. Realism makes no game any more better not to mention that during the medeival times people didn't really store their stuff that wasn't money outside their home, that is a modern thing.
If you must use factions to protect your stuff instead of using an actual protection plugin then there is something at fault with the protection plugin. With the fee lwc is completely pointless since you can't lock most of your possessions when its intended to do so. If you want to organise your stuff by types of items like stone, cobble and wood you're going to be punished for doing so because of this fee. A quite often example is if someone has 20 chests and can only lock 10 of them, because of the fee he can't stop people stealing stuff from the other 10 chests. Many would say "Sell that stuff" but really I implore of you to ask your self, Why should I sell my hard earned items for something that was free?
In all honesty nothing justifies the reason for the price of locking a chest, nothing at all. Take for example locking a door, it is pointless since you can just add a button to it and save 10 regals.
If people are trying to avoid using the protection plugin because of the fee then said protection plugin it not doing its purpose in the slightest.
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YES THANK YOU XON
 
KyleDinny said:
I can see exactly where you're coming from and I can understand the feeling of deadbolts being left everywhere (I am also guilty for 1 or 2 c: ) maybe if the staff are so adamant about keeping said fee for a money sink, they should offer a refund from any removed chests. (If they already do great I don't keep with current events since exams are keeping me from my virtual life too ;c )

I would be happy to see a reduced or wiped price for them though, since deadbolt was not "broken" in the sense it was augmenting the problem of money.

I also hear everyone saying "You should remove prices for houses and shops if you're going to remove price for LWC." I can only disagree with that. It's simply a fact of they've been their since the beginning and are logical to have their otherwise you'd have people running around constantly having a house or a shop without cycles for others to claim a spot. It's different with a chest, they're not limited to certain places and can be moved about at will. The pricing for LWC is clearly effecting alot of people and yes, the minority (from what I see) are for it but the people against it are strongly against it.

My opinion on this is that I don't mind it, I only mind the price for EACH item to protect, it's a big ask for the people with large amounts of items and little money ratios...


before anyone asks...

If it was compromised or removed it'd be back to a place where everyones happy, I didn't hear people in generic saying they wanted to pay for all of their chests to be locked. Also to people who are complaining without a reason other than they don't want to spend money. Stop. You're lucky you're not limited to 3 chests like on some servers and have to donate for more.

I am trying to be on everyone's side but it proves hard to please everyone on the server and this is what the staff have to take into consideration but I think that the majority are against this.
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I don't think it would be possible to refund every single chest pointlessly locked and I doubt that a reduce in price will go through mainly because as you can see the majority want it gone.
Also the people who say they don't want to spend money are saying that mainly because they are poor or find no reason to lock a chest.

I would like to bring fourth a point to the staff.
With deadbolt you get a few signs and go crazy locking all the stuff you own and managing who can open what and where and you could make as many as you want anywhere in the world.
With lwc you lock 5 objects and keep them to yourself because this fee makes it costly to even manage who can open a certain door or open a chest.
I see no real benefit from having this fee in the slightest. Using a factions to protect your stuff is FAR more easier to use and less costly. Prior to lwc people used deabolts to protect stuff but now I see people creating entire new factions to simply store their stuff avoiding the use of lwc and owning little to no lwc locks. This fee has rendered the protection plugin lwc infective at protecting blocks. There is no clear advantage to having a fee for lwc, the staff have said its for economy purposes but really, imagine in real life every 30 items you owned you had to pay money and your goverment said it was for the economy and people owning too much money because that's what your doing right now, taxing people for ownership for reasons many do not care about. Staff I ask of you, if you do not want this lwc incident to inflate to massive hate then remove the fee. Throughout the life of this whole poll and thread the majority was against it. You can't ignore the majorities hate for this, not now not then not never.
 
Shayin said:
I think that the fee for LWC should be like 0.001% 0f the person's average money within the past week rounded up to the nearest regal.
This is aimed towards those rich farts who like to hoard. It also makes it realistic for newbies who don't have any money to be able to afford some.
I say average money within the past week because someone can easily dump the money into their faction or a friend.
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To quote the rich farts, it is unfair to make them loose what they have build up. The lwc costs arent high and it is realistic, seeing in this time you would need to buy locks at the locksmith. How better they were how higher the price. So 10 regals for protection of 20 days is cheap.
 
Let's put it this way... MAKE IT FREE!!!!!!!!!!!! PLEASE AND THANK YOU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
 
MonMarty said:
Yah, only like 900 more to go before the poll actually starts representing a relative part of the community.
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What is your definition of relative? Is it the players who are active throughout massive? Do you mean the community that visits the forums, or just the community in general? I've never seen more than 300 players online at once so I doubt this thread could get that many votes or more. I've seen many other threads with less votes that have gotten accepted by the mods on this forum and they have had drastically less approvals. Don't forget about the people who don't want to get themselves involved in server politics.

Not saying your voting system is flawed, or that I truly care about an LWC fee. I'm just curious about how you judge stuff like this.
 
We really don't care about forum polls. The options are rigged anyway to favor the maker of the thread. They have a one track mind, and as such only present an X and Y option, instead of an X-Z or a Y-Z or even a Z-Z option. There are more sides to this subject than this thread lets on, wich is why the poll results are unreliable. They don't accurately portray how the voters actually feel, they just give a "whatever" estimation of grouped opinions that are closely related to one or the other.

As for the server popularity, while there is not more than 350 people at most on the server, nearly every day has an active recurring population of 2100+, 2700+ if you want to count unique visits. Even if we were to take the 70 or so votes balanced out by the 30 negative votes, the actual vote percentage is but a tiny fraction of the actual population.

I prefer not to give players who find and use communication methods with frequency more attention or attribute them a more valid opinion than those who don't vote, or don't mix themselves in this debate.

For all the Nay and Yay votes, there is an exponentially larger number of people, who simply don't care.
 
While your comment was funny, it was uncalled for. You're putting down your community, and even if you disagree with the removal of the fee, all the staff that have commented have shown generosity and thortuna even told us that the staff have considered options, showing how much they mean to help us even though they know they can't at the moment. This shows us how much the staff strive to help us, yet you show a bad example for them by putting down the majority with your most recent comment. While I respect your opinion or should i say the reality, i just think an approach showing more sympathy to the players like for example thortuna or drunk monk would have been better. Going back to the reply you gave me, I understand you have a reputation for showing sarcasm a lot in these types of posts, however funny as it was I was kind of offended.
MonMarty said:
Yah, only like 900 more to go before the poll actually starts representing a relative part of the community.
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MonMarty said:
We really don't care about forum polls. The options are rigged anyway to favor the maker of the thread. They have a one track mind, and as such only present an X and Y option, instead of an X-Z or a Y-Z or even a Z-Z option. There are more sides to this subject than this thread lets on, wich is why the poll results are unreliable. They don't accurately portray how the voters actually feel, they just give a "whatever" estimation of grouped opinions that are closely related to one or the other.

As for the server popularity, while there is not more than 350 people at most on the server, nearly every day has an active recurring population of 2100+, 2700+ if you want to count unique visits. Even if we were to take the 70 or so votes balanced out by the 30 negative votes, the actual vote percentage is but a tiny fraction of the actual population.

I prefer not to give players who find and use communication methods with frequency more attention or attribute them a more valid opinion than those who don't vote, or don't mix themselves in this debate.

For all the Nay and Yay votes, there is an exponentially larger number of people, who simply don't care.
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MonMarty said:
We really don't care about forum polls. The options are rigged anyway to favor the maker of the thread. They have a one track mind, and as such only present an X and Y option, instead of an X-Z or a Y-Z or even a Z-Z option. There are more sides to this subject than this thread lets on, wich is why the poll results are unreliable. They don't accurately portray how the voters actually feel, they just give a "whatever" estimation of grouped opinions that are closely related to one or the other.

As for the server popularity, while there is not more than 350 people at most on the server, nearly every day has an active recurring population of 2100+, 2700+ if you want to count unique visits. Even if we were to take the 70 or so votes balanced out by the 30 negative votes, the actual vote percentage is but a tiny fraction of the actual population.

I prefer not to give players who find and use communication methods with frequency more attention or attribute them a more valid opinion than those who don't vote, or don't mix themselves in this debate.

For all the Nay and Yay votes, there is an exponentially larger number of people, who simply don't care.
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How in anyway is it rigged? It is a simple "Yes"or"No" answer that has received a exponentially large amount of No for the lwc fee. The reason I have it set up like that is if people want to keep or modify the fee in anyway then they can just say keep and tell reasons why. The reason I have just Yes or No I because on the opinion of this fee both are the largest opinions. Monmarty 98 people have just voted on going against this, people have chosen to vote for what they want in a sense of democracy, how is this poll of a overwhelming amount of negativity apparently unreliable? Imagine if after the last American election some people said Obama rigged it but in all honesty he won fair and square because the clear majority said they wanted him and so did the clear majority say they wanted to get rid of this.
I know there are more than 350 people on massivecraft but only one third of them actually have a forum account and the others don't vote because they don't really care about the forums anyway and just want to play on the server.
So is any other opinion on massivecraft's forum if you put it the way of your percentage of total server population. Recruitment and empire could be counted as minorities support according to your logic. Most people on massivecraft are not involved in the forums.
That "Exponentially large number of people who don't care" should not be involved in the statistics because they don't care if this fee stays or not. When it comes to a lot of opinions and suggestions on this forum the majority don't care. It is widespread because the majority don't have a forums account.
MonMarty said:
Yah, only like 900 more to go before the poll actually starts representing a relative part of the community.
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Of those 900 people how many have a forums account? Hm?
I really don't see how you can ignore nearly 100 peoples opinions
You can say what you want about the majority, call their opinions and great numbers false and unreliable but that will NEVER ever change the fact that the majority refuse this fee for mere ownership that is there to make it so people have less money because other people are too rich.
 
The simple answer to your post is that we won't allow the opinions of 100 people to dictate the future functioning of the Economy for thousands of players.
 
MonMarty said:
The simple answer to your post is that we won't allow the opinions of 100 people to dictate the future functioning of the Economy for thousands of players.
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If you don't want these 100 people to dictate the economy of thousands of people then why do you not try in the slightest to get the opinion of these so called "Thousands"? If you complain about the minorities opinion ruling over the majority why don't you poll the majorities? If you don't even try to poll them isn't that counter productive?
Also monmarty if those other thousands of people ACTUALLY did care about this removing or keeping this fee then they would of created a forums account and would have voted. You should not tally up the opinions about lwc with and include the unwilling people with no account.
Also monmarty you're statement could also be applied to what you are doing
"Why should the economy of thousands of people be dictated by a few staff?"
 
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X0N3333 said:
Just because they are dictated by that doesn't mean our votes mean nothing
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True, a majority vote would give them another reason to remove the LWC fee. However they must not make their decision off of only the votes. Things like statistics, arguments, and other opinions go through their mind when coming up with decisions.

I can think of a few reasons as to why they are reluctant to listen to your idea.
 
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