Archived Changing Rp Raid Reasons

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BenRekt

BenRekt

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Hey guys,
I think most dedicated PvPers (Like myself) consider MassiveCraft PvP some of the best PvP in Minecraft. In fact, I know many people like me only actually play Minecraft because of MassiveCraft. In a recent post about "The Scariest Faction", I've seen a few posts from some PvPers about how factions themselves really aren't scary, and one post (I forget who by at the moment), made the point that factions, all factions, even those who make themselves "evil" are not, and basically, cannot be "scary" or feared. It was said that factions were only made scary when there was no RP reason needed to raid, and that there were factions that you just didn't mess with, because if you made a mistake, you were going to get slaughtered. After talking on skype, I came up with an idea.

I believe that this time in MassiveCraft can be restored, with a balance. My proposed idea is that we remove the whole idea of needing an RP reason to raid completely, but also add support for the newer factions it was intended to help by giving at least a 2 week grace period to new factions (Faction age can be seen with /f f). New factions within it's first 2 weeks will not be able to be enemied by other factions. However, the 2 week grace period can be broken, if the new faction attacks or enemies another faction. By adding this to MassiveCraft, war, and not just PvP, but possibly RP, could be enhanced (in my opinion), as new wars would be breaking out, and there would never be a dull moment, all the while new factions will be protected, and be given a fighting chance to build, recruit and strengthen overall.

Thank you for taking the time to read this, and hopefully you can share your opinion with me down in the comments below.
 
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levers said:
As a developer, I frequently have individuals approach me with solutions. They ask for new programs or for changes to fix this or that problem. When they do this, they are presenting me with solutions, their solution.

Instead, I always ask them for the problem. Don't ask me to implement your solution, present the problem to me. Let go of the fix you've identified and just tell me what's wrong. A good portion of the time we find some other way of resolving the issue that never would have occurred to the user.

So, instead of debating whether or not RP reasons for raiding should or should not exist (or a 2 week safety, which most seem to like), we should (more closely) focus on identifying what exactly is broken. Here are (terribly paraphrased) the problems that people have brought up, as I read them:

(my words, not their words)
BenAlex144 -- Factions aren't scary enough anymore/things have become dull.
favoured -- There are too many proxy wars now. Wars are impersonal. Staff gets pulled in, and that's annoying.
jquaile -- Old wars were better and now everyone brings the staff into things right off.
TheFinitePeach -- New factions can have a tough time when being raided too early.
DanyWood -- Not a lot of raiding noticed in the past 6 months.

Starting right off with the solution of dissolving the RP reason is necessarily going to turn this thread into a debate between RP and PVP. So instead, here are the problems the thread seems to be addressing (note that I'm leaving off the new faction item, since that was presented as a way to mitigate the initial solution Ben offered):

Faction warfare has grown stale. We see too many proxy wars, and the whole affair is bound up by a lot of annoying red tape.

So, does anyone have a solution to this problem, outside of ditching the rp-reason? It may turn out that it's all the fault of the rp reason, but we should try to focus on the problem first and see where that takes us.

levers
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Well I'm still very new to this server but if I may...

If Factions had a system that required both parties permission to enemy eachother it would prevent RP factions from being constantly raided by non-RP PVPers IMO, and with that type of system the rp-reason rule would not be needed.
 
Celeras said:
Well I'm still very new to this server but if I may...

If Factions had a system that required both parties permission to enemy eachother it would prevent RP factions from being constantly raided by non-RP PVPers IMO, and with that type of system the rp-reason rule would not be needed.
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The only thing that would happen is big factions, such as Mithril, would never be attacked, all big Role-play factions will never be attacked, and PvPers will just be fighting the same people over and over. I believe this is actually exactly the opposite of a fix, although it would be a good idea, if there were more PvPers on the server.
 
Roll dem bones said:
Why not just make it so that for pvp both factions have to agree to a war so they can make an rp story if they want,or to just goof around raiding each other. It makes it fair and if you lose anything valuable you are taking responsibility for it by agreeing to the war and if a member doesn't want to be part of the war from certain factions they can just leave the factions.

EDIT:The only downside i can see in this is that the pvp factions wont have as many people willing to fight them.
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The main point / fix I want to make is to make war really less civilized, not for people to "goof around raiding each other".
 
What an horrible idea.

First of all, two weeks isnt enough to build up a faction from scratch. Lets even say recruit members.

Second the rp reason is there so no idiot just attacks all of the small factions and demands stupid things.

Third this would almost make rp impossible outside of regalia, seeing everybody can just be attack ed at any given moment, while not protected.

And last factions who wish not to pvp but rp, like mine, would just get slaughterd. Seeing we dont think about much protection etc etc.

So, no! We dont need other rules.
 
levers said:
As a developer, I frequently have individuals approach me with solutions. They ask for new programs or for changes to fix this or that problem. When they do this, they are presenting me with solutions, their solution.

Instead, I always ask them for the problem. Don't ask me to implement your solution, present the problem to me. Let go of the fix you've identified and just tell me what's wrong. A good portion of the time we find some other way of resolving the issue that never would have occurred to the user.

So, instead of debating whether or not RP reasons for raiding should or should not exist (or a 2 week safety, which most seem to like), we should (more closely) focus on identifying what exactly is broken. Here are (terribly paraphrased) the problems that people have brought up, as I read them:

(my words, not their words)
BenAlex144 -- Factions aren't scary enough anymore/things have become dull.
favoured -- There are too many proxy wars now. Wars are impersonal. Staff gets pulled in, and that's annoying.
jquaile -- Old wars were better and now everyone brings the staff into things right off.
TheFinitePeach -- New factions can have a tough time when being raided too early.
DanyWood -- Not a lot of raiding noticed in the past 6 months.

Starting right off with the solution of dissolving the RP reason is necessarily going to turn this thread into a debate between RP and PVP. So instead, here are the problems the thread seems to be addressing (note that I'm leaving off the new faction item, since that was presented as a way to mitigate the initial solution Ben offered):

Faction warfare has grown stale. We see too many proxy wars, and the whole affair is bound up by a lot of annoying red tape.

So, does anyone have a solution to this problem, outside of ditching the rp-reason? It may turn out that it's all the fault of the rp reason, but we should try to focus on the problem first and see where that takes us.

levers
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The main problem that(Very nice thread by the way) you have allowed me to see is that because there are hardly any raids at all, the server really isn't much fun. I like that you want to do something "in the medium" instead of something in the extreme, and that is very educated of you, but it really seems to me (and some others) that the RP Raid reason has only gotten players banned for raiding for logical reasons, instead of providing some fake reason. I think a big part of this is that although the staff are extremely helpful, and do make the server all it is, end up being bias towards enemies, but still having the power to ban / decide punishments on them, or at least that's what I've been seeing.
 
Ellimairy said:
What an horrible idea.

First of all, two weeks isnt enough to build up a faction from scratch. Lets even say recruit members.

Second the rp reason is there so no idiot just attacks all of the small factions and demands stupid things.

Third this would almost make rp impossible outside of regalia, seeing everybody can just be attack ed at any given moment, while not protected.

And last factions who wish not to pvp but rp, like mine, would just get slaughterd. Seeing we dont think about much protection etc etc.

So, no! We dont need other rules.
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Just to make a quick response to this post,

For your 1st reason, most new factions don't take 2 weeks to get a few houses up or recruit people unless they are only on for an hour a week. It's really not that hard, and I've been in 2-3 factions that started from scratch and in every single one we were able to at least build a safe f home...

For your 2nd "reason", anyone can make up an Rp reason to raid
  • I'm a pirate here to take your loot
  • I'm an expanding empire
  • The list can go on forever
For your 3rd, this will encourage those helpless outside the wilderness to:

  1. Get better at PvP
  2. Make friends with PvP factions, or have allies help you
For your final reason, it's a lot more medieval-ish that those who "don't want to PvP" will and should get slaughtered.

Also, if you read the actual subject of the post it's not about "needing other rules", it's talking about taking away the ill-thought out ones that are pointless.
 
BenAlex144 said:
The only thing that would happen is big factions, such as Mithril, would never be attacked, all big Role-play factions will never be attacked, and PvPers will just be fighting the same people over and over. I believe this is actually exactly the opposite of a fix, although it would be a good idea, if there were more PvPers on the server.
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You mean they would never be attacked by non RP factions, right? Its perfectly possible for two factions to agree to an RP war, just take a look at this thread.

Honestly, if a faction doesn't want it, they shouldn't have to put up with PVPers bothering them. Also, it isn't that hard to come up with a real RP reason to raid someone that both parties would agree to.

BenAlex144 said:
Just to make a quick response to this post,

1. For your 1st reason, most new factions don't take 2 weeks to get a few houses up or recruit people unless they are only on for an hour a week. It's really not that hard, and I've been in 2-3 factions that started from scratch and in every single one we were able to at least build a safe f home...

2. For your 2nd "reason", anyone can make up an Rp reason to raid
  • I'm a pirate here to take your loot
  • I'm an expanding empire
  • The list can go on forever
3. For your 3rd, this will encourage those helpless outside the wilderness to:

  1. Get better at PvP
  2. Make friends with PvP factions, or have allies help you
4. For your final reason, it's a lot more medieval-ish that those who "don't want to PvP" will and should get slaughtered.

Also, if you read the actual subject of the post it's not about "needing other rules", it's talking about taking away the ill-thought out ones that are pointless.
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1. An RP faction should not have to worry about defense from random raids. This leads to crappy builds and disbanded factions. Because of this, RP suffers.
2. True, those are some reasons, but still the faction should have to agree with your reason for you to raid them (IMO)
3. Telling an RP faction to 'get better' doesn't help anyone. Obviously, they don't WANT to PVP. Who are you to tell them what they should and shouldn't do?
4. You're taking the motivations of the player and applying it to their character. Maybe their character does like fighting, but the player wants to control when and where to fight. All that gets ruined when some random guy comes in and kills you.
 
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BenAlex144 said:
Just to make a quick response to this post,

For your 1st reason, most new factions don't take 2 weeks to get a few houses up or recruit people unless they are only on for an hour a week. It's really not that hard, and I've been in 2-3 factions that started from scratch and in every single one we were able to at least build a safe f home...

For your 2nd "reason", anyone can make up an Rp reason to raid
  • I'm a pirate here to take your loot
  • I'm an expanding empire
  • The list can go on forever
For your 3rd, this will encourage those helpless outside the wilderness to:

  1. Get better at PvP
  2. Make friends with PvP factions, or have allies help you
For your final reason, it's a lot more medieval-ish that those who "don't want to PvP" will and should get slaughtered.

Also, if you read the actual subject of the post it's not about "needing other rules", it's talking about taking away the ill-thought out ones that are pointless.
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Try to RP instead or at least stop being lazy.
 
Celeras said:
You mean they would never be attacked by non RP factions, right? Its perfectly possible for two factions to agree to an RP war, just take a look at this thread.

Honestly, if a faction doesn't want it, they shouldn't have to put up with PVPers bothering them. Also, it isn't that hard to come up with a real RP reason to raid someone that both parties would agree to.



1. An RP faction should not have to worry about defense from random raids. This leads to crappy builds and disbanded factions. Because of this, RP suffers.
2. True, those are some reasons, but still the faction should have to agree with your reason for you to raid them (IMO)
3. Telling an RP faction to 'get better' doesn't help anyone. Obviously, they don't WANT to PVP. Who are you to tell them what they should and shouldn't do?
4. You're taking the motivations of the player and applying it to their character. Maybe their character does like fighting, but the player wants to control when and where to fight. All that gets ruined when some random guy comes in and kills you.
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I know what you are going for Cell and what you are stating would remove PVP completely almost because only factions with sport would agree to fights they can't win.
 
Celeras said:
Who are you to tell them what they should and shouldn't do?
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So what you are essentially saying is it's fine to force pvpers to Rp but not ok to force rpers to pvp...
Also it's well accepted that faction worlds are not lore enforced particularly. It is more light rp than strict rp. You think raids lead to poor faction builds? This server has some of the best architecture I've seen on Mc anywhere, despite raids. Go visit Algaron, Valorian, Mithril, Damorn etc. Raiding need not lead to badly built factions. Factions should not need to agree to your reason to raid, you could have a perfectly legitimate rp reason to attack and they could just say no. E.g. You're an order of vampire hunters and have found a group of vampires but you have to ask if you can kill them first? Nonsensical.
 
So, something is causing this:

Faction warfare has grown stale. We see too many proxy wars, and the whole affair is bound up by a lot of annoying red tape.

With the RP reason itself so easy to evade ("I'm a pirate here to take your loot","I'm an expanding empire"), I feel like something else must causing things to grow stale and bunch up into proxy wars. Really, it's not hard to come up with an rp explanation that you use over and over again (annoying if you're not an rp'er, but not too hard). So, what is going on?

He are some possible reasons for the current situation:

--There's the chance an admin will reject your seemingly valid rp reason. Anything that feels arbitrary to people will lead to inaction.
--There's confusion about what is and is not allowed, perhaps providing an entry barrier to the inexperienced pvp'ers.
--It's terribly unpleasant to have the admins/cops called on you, even if you know you are following the rules.
--what else?

Also, I don't think the harassment rules are causing a problem. They are pretty clear. The tributes system doesn't seem to bad either, and besides, the work there comes after the raid begins and a surrender is discussed. Things that deter people from acting usually involve immediate barriers, not the work that comes along later on in the process.

At this point I'm leaning towards the root cause being the unpleasantness of knowing they will contact the admins every time, even when you know you are following the rules.

levers
 
jquaile said:
So what you are essentially saying is it's fine to force pvpers to Rp but not ok to force rpers to pvp...
Also it's well accepted that faction worlds are not lore enforced particularly. It is more light rp than strict rp. You think raids lead to poor faction builds? This server has some of the best architecture I've seen on Mc anywhere, despite raids. Go visit Algaron, Valorian, Mithril, Damorn etc. Raiding need not lead to badly built factions. Factions should not need to agree to your reason to raid, you could have a perfectly legitimate rp reason to attack and they could just say no. E.g. You're an order of vampire hunters and have found a group of vampires but you have to ask if you can kill them first? Nonsensical.
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If you ask me you can just burst in and slaughter them. having a reason to attack them does not mean you have to state it right then and their. also you need not send them a /tell or /msg with the reasons just yet eather because that would be mettagaming anyway since all roleplay is done in local chat.
If the one that was attacked yells out I surrender and walks out of his house the rules state you must seas fire and talk anyway
then you can walk up to him and circcle him with your men and say l: you came to the regalian church and spat on the book that holds the word of God! now the palladins of old are hear to make you suffer, you shall pay 12 gold bars to the Gods! by suporting our cause.
Or somethign like that.
thats awesome imaging people just said /tell you looked like a good target for lol raiding :D have fun sucker.
 
Dworvin said:
I know what you are going for Cell and what you are stating would remove PVP completely almost because only factions with sport would agree to fights they can't win.
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Not completely but I understand what you are saying. People take PVP personal sometimes and take it as a personal failure when they lose, but in RP its the opposite.

jquaile said:
So what you are essentially saying is it's fine to force pvpers to Rp but not ok to force rpers to pvp...
Also it's well accepted that faction worlds are not lore enforced particularly. It is more light rp than strict rp. You think raids lead to poor faction builds? This server has some of the best architecture I've seen on Mc anywhere, despite raids. Go visit Algaron, Valorian, Mithril, Damorn etc. Raiding need not lead to badly built factions. Factions should not need to agree to your reason to raid, you could have a perfectly legitimate rp reason to attack and they could just say no. E.g. You're an order of vampire hunters and have found a group of vampires but you have to ask if you can kill them first? Nonsensical.
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You'd only be forced to RP when dealing with RP factions. Right now you can't raid without an RP reason anyway so I don't see the difference. There may be rare exceptions to builds but I've traveled a lot already and there are ruined giant squares and half finished walls everywhere.

About the vampire hunter thing;

1. You'd have to fight them to kill them. Don't assume you'll just murder anything in your path.
2. Yes, you have to ask them to fight first. Try it, more people are willing to fight than you realize.

*the enemy/truce/ally thing only applies to faction land. You would still be able to kill anyone you want outside of faction land.
 
levers said:
So, something is causing this:

Faction warfare has grown stale. We see too many proxy wars, and the whole affair is bound up by a lot of annoying red tape.

With the RP reason itself so easy to evade ("I'm a pirate here to take your loot","I'm an expanding empire"), I feel like something else must causing things to grow stale and bunch up into proxy wars. Really, it's not hard to come up with an rp explanation that you use over and over again (annoying if you're not an rp'er, but not too hard). So, what is going on?

He are some possible reasons for the current situation:

--There's the chance an admin will reject your seemingly valid rp reason. Anything that feels arbitrary to people will lead to inaction.
--There's confusion about what is and is not allowed, perhaps providing an entry barrier to the inexperienced pvp'ers.
--It's terribly unpleasant to have the admins/cops called on you, even if you know you are following the rules.
--what else?

Also, I don't think the harassment rules are causing a problem. They are pretty clear. The tributes system doesn't seem to bad either, and besides, the work there comes after the raid begins and a surrender is discussed. Things that deter people from acting usually involve immediate barriers, not the work that comes along later on in the process.

At this point I'm leaning towards the root cause being the unpleasantness of knowing they will contact the admins every time, even when you know you are following the rules.

levers
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I'll make a suggestion if something else that is rather irritating. If you do attack a non pvp faction even with a proper reason you get large amounts of spam from their members/allies. Particularly the fact that some players consider themselves to be above the normal rules, for instance I have had someone try to make out that I couldn't attack them because then Regalia would declare war on me. This creates a nigh on impossible situation and essentially makes some factions "invulnerable".
 
Celeras said:
Not completely but I understand what you are saying. People take PVP personal sometimes and take it as a personal failure when they lose, but in RP its the opposite.



You'd only be forced to RP when dealing with RP factions. Right now you can't raid without an RP reason anyway so I don't see the difference. There may be rare exceptions to builds but I've traveled a lot already and there are ruined giant squares and half finished walls everywhere.

About the vampire hunter thing;

1. You'd have to fight them to kill them. Don't assume you'll just murder anything in your path.
2. Yes, you have to ask them to fight first. Try it, more people are willing to fight than you realize.

*the enemy/truce/ally thing only applies to faction land. You would still be able to kill anyone you want outside of faction land.
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So you're suggesting that it's ok to force pvpers to rp but not vice versa. And I think we just have a difference of opinion on this so I'm just gonna leave it on that
 
jquaile said:
I'll make a suggestion if something else that is rather irritating. If you do attack a non pvp faction even with a proper reason you get large amounts of spam from their members/allies. Particularly the fact that some players consider themselves to be above the normal rules, for instance I have had someone try to make out that I couldn't attack them because then Regalia would declare war on me. This creates a nigh on impossible situation and essentially makes some factions "invulnerable".
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Generally speaking, when activity appears limited in any one area it's because there is either not enough reward (no motivation) or it's too much of a pain (frictional costs acting as a demotivator, like those you just described).

It looks like it's all the latter. Casual faction pvp has become too much of a pita.

levers
 
jquaile said:
So you're suggesting that it's ok to force pvpers to rp but not vice versa. And I think we just have a difference of opinion on this so I'm just gonna leave it on that
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Yes, when dealing with RP factions, because by raiding an RP faction you are intruding on their activities. An RP'er doesn't come to your base and interrupt whatever you're doing do they?
 
The server is great as it is it has a happy middle.

In order to RP you have to PVP a little
and to PVP you have to RP a little

I mean if you take the time to at the very least come up with an RP reason to cause a faction trouble then they have to PVP or least hide from you to defend them selves.

I will be leaving this thread with that.
 
Dworvin said:
The server is great as it is it has a happy middle.
In order to RP you have to PVP a little
and to PVP you have to RP a little
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I'm not so sure that things are good as they are nor that the issue is actually related to RP vs PVP.

I'd noted before the following:
--There's the chance an admin will reject your seemingly valid rp reason. Anything that feels arbitrary to people will lead to inaction.
--There's confusion about what is and is not allowed, perhaps providing an entry barrier to the inexperienced pvp'ers.
--It's terribly unpleasant to have the admins/cops called on you, even if you know you are following the rules.

I think I'm leaning towards this:

Faction warfare has grown stale. Unless one enjoys conducting war under the watchful eye of an auditor/staff-member, it's far less of a hassle to instead engage the same old pvp veterans or jump into existing, sanctioned wars being fought by an ally. The result is the current proliferation of proxy warfare and the near elimination of small scale raids.

That sound about right?

levers
 
The Shadow King said:
Ninjas are a secret sect of a Naga god, is he a Naga? Also, the group is secret and not as public as a faction.
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The guy had no interest in Rp, and no he wasn't a naga if I remember correctly his race was Orc. Which, like I said, simply means he was just looking for an excuse to attack then the next day completely turned around and changed his factions point.
 
This thread is a load of crap. There is no point in it and if anything, it should be more for making the RP reason rule harder to start a war. It should have proof of why the war is starting like pictures of them offending you or a random faction killing you for no reason or what not. Most people make up any random reason to #yolo raid or whatever like "Abusive behavior" but I am not saying you cannot stick up for allies or whatever as long as the ally you are sticking up for has a reason to be in the war. Although I get what Benalex is saying, I do not think it is for the right reasons. You may say to me "Oh you don't PvP, you don't know what you are on about." Well I call bullcrap. I have been in most of the wars in my 2 years of playing MassiveCraft. I have been here before the Solaris war.
 
As has been stated before, on this thread and countless others, MassiveCraft caters for variety. Therefore, I say that the answer to this bone of contention lies not in a one-size-fits-all rule, but rather in an agreement/common-sense system.
I'm sure Magnanimus and Valyria (to pick a random example) could agree to brush RP to the side for a short while. This shouldn't be stopped if both sides agree to it.
I think RP partly simply ensures that raids are planned, rather than just 'hur hur hur, im gunna raide dese peoplez'. I don't wish to state that all non-RP raids are like this, not by any stretch of the imagination, but RP certainly limits this.
In short, if both sides agree the war need not be IC, it need not. If one side can be shown to be overly provocative (excessive taunting, thieving, etc.) then that is RP reason enough, even if they taunted/stole OOC. If it isn't in one of those two categories, I don't think there's a great reason to raid without good RP reason.
 
levers said:
The fun comment was in reference to the other fellow suggesting that further documentation should be required.
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I am not saying to stop PvP but I think as long as it is a valid reason with proof then yes, a war can spring unless both sides do not want to give reason but accept on the forums or globally that they are going to war without RP reason.
 
XxXYaJrAbXxX said:
I am not saying to stop PvP but I think as long as it is a valid reason with proof then yes, a war can spring unless both sides do not want to give reason but accept on the forums or globally that they are going to war without RP reason.
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Why do people assume that a valid reason to raid is beneficial to Roleplay? This genuinely baffles me. Massivecraft is a RPG server, and nothing is more important to an RPG than a villain. Every good story needs a villain that you can HATE. Not merely dislike, but hate should be reserved for a good villain. That's the current problem with roleplay on Massivecraft (at least in my opinion). Who should you hate? Raiding has become a monotone procedure that leaves the recipient of a invasion rarely bearing the hate that a raider deserves. Amusingly enough, respect is often formed from hate. Would Alamut have ever been respected or feared if they had not demonstrated their power? What faction today could amass even an iota of the respect that was often given to factions such as Alamut, Argonia, and Valyria? Alamut used to have the faction description "Random Ally requests will be met with random War declarations". Could you imagine if a faction tried to instate the same policy today? They would be bogged down by players screaming "THAT'S NOT ROLEPLAY!". Even if players didn't turn to the rules in this case, the roleplay requirement is nevertheless limiting the goals of pvpers. It remains as a constant question in pvper's minds. "What is this isn't allowed? Is this roleplay? What if I get banned for this? " I used to make the joke "You know how some Minecraft servers get griefers? Well, Massivecraft gets egotistical maniacs that try to take over the world!" If a World War were to start again, would people even feel any fear? Any dread? Would they simply look on as if the war was a play or movie? Could a good villain even attempt to do what the Imperials had done? I miss the days of the Imperial War, were it really felt like I was part of a giant play set in a fantasy world. The set pieces were all there. The Heroes of the Coalition fighting daily against the Villains of the Imperials. Zion was sacked, having over 300(I believe) members die in a little under 3 hours. The Red Wedding was a massacre of innocent civillians that were roleplaying when Valyrians took an axe to the wedding. I know this has been more or less a completely unorganized rant, but I simply feel as if the role of "Villain" has been scratched out of the script of Massivecraft, replaced by "Random Annoying Guy".
 
I think most people are missing the point that there would still be a harassment rule. It is not like removing this rule would suddenly make all hell break loose. Sure, raid frequency would increase but at a manageable level for any faction to stubborn to exercise their maximum tribute right.

On a little personal note after reading this thread, I dislike when people seem to brush off pvpers as infirior by saying things such as "This is an RP server with pvp elements". Pvp is enabled. It /is/ a pvp and RP server. Just because you dislike pvp does not mean that we are just a small, insignificant part of the server.
 
Can we please cut the idiotic flame and bashing PvP or RP, RP is good, PvP is good, they are both fun. in some cases RP enhances PvP (Valyria, Magnanimus's undead war, Imperialism) but having RP as a requirement for raiding is annoying, I admit making a reason is not difficult but I agree completely with this idea.
 
I think a lot of people disagreed with this before reading the comments about why this is useful. I agree with this 100%. I was trying to raid someone today because their titles were "vampire" and stuff so I said "hey we have someone to attack". Then during the raid I got screemed at by people saying "META GAMING!!!!!!" and "WHATS YOUR REASONNNN!!!!!????" and got a bunch of people threatening me because I'm not supposed to know their vampires, so I could totally see why people would get board and just look in ally chat to start a proxy war.
P.S. I tried the "Expanding empire" thing, but was told I couldn't do that out of my home continent.
 
TheBatman1016 said:
I think a lot of people disagreed with this before reading the comments about why this is useful. I agree with this 100%. I was trying to raid someone today because their titles were "vampire" and stuff so I said "hey we have someone to attack". Then during the raid I got screemed at by people saying "META GAMING!!!!!!" and "WHATS YOUR REASONNNN!!!!!????" and got a bunch of people threatening me because I'm not supposed to know their vampires, so I could totally see why people would get board and just look in ally chat to start a proxy war.
P.S. I tried the "Expanding empire" thing, but was told I couldn't do that out of my home continent.
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Tell them you are there for loot and slaughter, other wise known as banditry.
 
favoured said:
Why do people assume that a valid reason to raid is beneficial to Roleplay? This genuinely baffles me. Massivecraft is a RPG server, and nothing is more important to an RPG than a villain. Every good story needs a villain that you can HATE. Not merely dislike, but hate should be reserved for a good villain. That's the current problem with roleplay on Massivecraft (at least in my opinion). Who should you hate? Raiding has become a monotone procedure that leaves the recipient of a invasion rarely bearing the hate that a raider deserves. Amusingly enough, respect is often formed from hate. Would Alamut have ever been respected or feared if they had not demonstrated their power? What faction today could amass even an iota of the respect that was often given to factions such as Alamut, Argonia, and Valyria? Alamut used to have the faction description "Random Ally requests will be met with random War declarations". Could you imagine if a faction tried to instate the same policy today? They would be bogged down by players screaming "THAT'S NOT ROLEPLAY!". Even if players didn't turn to the rules in this case, the roleplay requirement is nevertheless limiting the goals of pvpers. It remains as a constant question in pvper's minds. "What is this isn't allowed? Is this roleplay? What if I get banned for this? " I used to make the joke "You know how some Minecraft servers get griefers? Well, Massivecraft gets egotistical maniacs that try to take over the world!" If a World War were to start again, would people even feel any fear? Any dread? Would they simply look on as if the war was a play or movie? Could a good villain even attempt to do what the Imperials had done? I miss the days of the Imperial War, were it really felt like I was part of a giant play set in a fantasy world. The set pieces were all there. The Heroes of the Coalition fighting daily against the Villains of the Imperials. Zion was sacked, having over 300(I believe) members die in a little under 3 hours. The Red Wedding was a massacre of innocent civillians that were roleplaying when Valyrians took an axe to the wedding. I know this has been more or less a completely unorganized rant, but I simply feel as if the role of "Villain" has been scratched out of the script of Massivecraft, replaced by "Random Annoying Guy".
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I never said being a villain is not a valid reason. Look at the Ridenval roleplay. They were the villains and because they made their RP Story about it, I had no problem with it. It is more the fact people use thing constantly like "I want their resources!" or "They offended my faction!" Where is the proof for crying out loud?! If you are going to make them excuses, at least put proof or an RP Story if you are a villain. I don't think anyone is seeing what I am getting at.
 
TheBatman1016 said:
I think a lot of people disagreed with this before reading the comments about why this is useful. I agree with this 100%. I was trying to raid someone today because their titles were "vampire" and stuff so I said "hey we have someone to attack". Then during the raid I got screemed at by people saying "META GAMING!!!!!!" and "WHATS YOUR REASONNNN!!!!!????" and got a bunch of people threatening me because I'm not supposed to know their vampires, so I could totally see why people would get board and just look in ally chat to start a proxy war.
P.S. I tried the "Expanding empire" thing, but was told I couldn't do that out of my home continent.
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1. I never screamed at you. Looking at someone's faction titles, having never roleplayed with them, you'd have no idea that they were vampires. In roleplay, they hide their vampirism and are not open about it. The fact you're 'looking for someone to raid' based on their faction titles basically implies you were looking for someone to 'lolraid' regardless. It is metagaming to automatically 'know' they're vampires.
2. Your 'expanding empire' reason is also basically ridiculous. No rightful empire would start with (cough, weaker factions with no prems online vs prems only cough) factions that a world away from them. They would start with ones on their own continent rather than going half way across the world just to raid one or two people who they've never met before, in roleplay or otherwise.

Instead of playing yourself up to be the victim (once again, not once did I yell at you, you're being rather melodramatic there aren't you?), try raiding factions in your surrounding area for your 'expanding empire' excuse.

I think the rp rules should stand, because as is, it is a roleplay server. I'd rather not see smaller, weaker, more non-prem and non-PVP based factions raided into the dust for no reason just because a few premium PVPers get bored one day and the lolsraiding resumes.
 
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