Archived Changing Rp Raid Reasons

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BenRekt

BenRekt

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Hey guys,
I think most dedicated PvPers (Like myself) consider MassiveCraft PvP some of the best PvP in Minecraft. In fact, I know many people like me only actually play Minecraft because of MassiveCraft. In a recent post about "The Scariest Faction", I've seen a few posts from some PvPers about how factions themselves really aren't scary, and one post (I forget who by at the moment), made the point that factions, all factions, even those who make themselves "evil" are not, and basically, cannot be "scary" or feared. It was said that factions were only made scary when there was no RP reason needed to raid, and that there were factions that you just didn't mess with, because if you made a mistake, you were going to get slaughtered. After talking on skype, I came up with an idea.

I believe that this time in MassiveCraft can be restored, with a balance. My proposed idea is that we remove the whole idea of needing an RP reason to raid completely, but also add support for the newer factions it was intended to help by giving at least a 2 week grace period to new factions (Faction age can be seen with /f f). New factions within it's first 2 weeks will not be able to be enemied by other factions. However, the 2 week grace period can be broken, if the new faction attacks or enemies another faction. By adding this to MassiveCraft, war, and not just PvP, but possibly RP, could be enhanced (in my opinion), as new wars would be breaking out, and there would never be a dull moment, all the while new factions will be protected, and be given a fighting chance to build, recruit and strengthen overall.

Thank you for taking the time to read this, and hopefully you can share your opinion with me down in the comments below.
 
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This is a great idea, and I support it but this won't be too easy to implement into the Factions plugin. The Factions plugin itself is quite large and complex so implementing this may create a hurdle for the developer tasked to the job

EDIT: I believe the RP reason should remain but the new faction peaceful rule is quite good
 
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Ethanol said:
This is a great idea, and I support it but this won't be too easy to implement into the Factions plugin. The Factions plugin itself is quite large and complex so implementing this may create a hurdle for the developer tasked to the job
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You wouldn't necessarily need to code this into the plug-in, a ticket with the mods, or simply making it a well known rule may be able to suffice. Also, thanks for the feedback.
 
BenAlex144 said:
You rate and disagree, but now you provide no explanation why. Also, if you haven't realized by now, MassiveCraft is an RP server with a large aspect of PvP, please don't turn this into RP vs. PvP.
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I thought the reasons were simply obvious, MassiveCraft should always follow the RP reason to raid, due to it being a role play server with PvP aspects, I'm not going to be any more straight forward to that.
 
I think there is a difference between being feared and being annoying.
 
SacredTrout said:
I thought the reasons were simply obvious, MassiveCraft should always follow the RP reason to raid, due to it being a role play server with PvP aspects, I'm not going to be any more straight forward to that.
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That makes a little more sense...
On a side note, I believe that more war will also cause more diverse RP, and bring people in to contact with people they may have never even knew existed, making it beneficial to Rp
 
SacredTrout said:
I thought the reasons were simply obvious, MassiveCraft should always follow the RP reason to raid, due to it being a role play server with PvP aspects, I'm not going to be any more straight forward to that.
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Just throwing in my two cents, I think the roleplay reason to raid might actually decrease the general experience for all players on Massivecraft. Hear me out here, I actually have some reasoning behind this. Think about the amount of proxy wars we're having right now. Do you know why this is happening? My theory is that due to the fact that there are less wars in general since the requirement of roleplay reasoning, pvp factions are now taking the easy route of asking in ally chat "hey, who's getting raided?" and immediately going to assist the allied faction. This simply ends up with the original faction raided being turned into a freaking world war as other pvp powerhouses push more soldiers into the war. Sure, pvpers could just randomly raid people and say "we're bandits" as a pvp excuse instead of proxy warring, but humans will instinctively do what seems easier to them. Should you raid a random factions and have to repeatedly proclaim "we're bandit rping", or should you simply go through a portal and find a good fight? Instead of protecting factions from war, this rule is now just pushing the factions that do get raided into an endless war. Meanwhile, pvpers are forced into fights with basically the same people over and over again from powerhouse factions.
 
favoured said:
Just throwing in my two cents, I think the roleplay reason to raid might actually decrease the general experience for all players on Massivecraft. Hear me out here, I actually have some reasoning behind this. Think about the amount of proxy wars we're having right now. Do you know why this is happening? My theory is that due to the fact that there are less wars in general since the requirement of roleplay reasoning, pvp factions are now taking the easy route of asking in ally chat "hey, who's getting raided?" and immediately going to assist the allied faction. This simply ends up with the original faction raided being turned into a freaking world war as other pvp powerhouses push more soldiers into the war. Sure, pvpers could just randomly raid people and say "we're bandits" as a pvp excuse instead of proxy warring, but humans will instinctively do what seems easier to them. Should you raid a random factions and have to repeatedly proclaim "we're bandit rping", or should you simply go through a portal and find a good fight? Instead of protecting factions from war, this rule is now just pushing the factions that do get raided into an endless war. Meanwhile, pvpers are forced into fights with basically the same people over and over again from powerhouse factions.
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That was so well put and argued. If I had a trophy, I would give you it.
 
BenAlex144 said:
That makes a little more sense...
On a side note, I believe that more war will also cause more diverse RP, and bring people in to contact with people they may have never even knew existed, making it beneficial to Rp
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back in the old days before this rule, the opposite happend due to it. I have always traveled lands for factions searching for RP, back then the most I would get was just some people yelling at me to go away. Nowadays, while that does in fact still happen, it happens ALOT less.
 
BenAlex144 said:
You wouldn't necessarily need to code this into the plug-in, a ticket with the mods, or simply making it a well known rule may be able to suffice. Also, thanks for the feedback.
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That's good in theory but sadly, there's always "that guy". By that I mean the person that takes advantage of the trusting new faction and has a few hidden loot chests. MassiveCraft is great and so are a majority of its player base, but nothing's perfect
 
I understand peoples points about the server being mainly Rp but if what I understand about the old wars is correct, the bigger wars almost became Rp. They became the talk of the server, everyone got involved. I think it's sad now that the first thing that happens when you raid someone now is to be asked for a raid reason or have them call a staff member to ask you your reason.
 
jquaile said:
I understand peoples points about the server being mainly Rp but if what I understand about the old wars is correct, the bigger wars almost became Rp. They became the talk of the server, everyone got involved. I think it's sad now that the first thing that happens when you raid someone now is to be asked for a raid reason or have them call a staff member to ask you your reason.
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Isn't enlarging an empire a good rp reason? Because if you think about all those large empires in the real medieval times, they weren't made with asking politly to join them. And by my knowledge rp means that you play that the things that you do are like real life. So I could see enlarging an empire as a valid rp reason as it happened a lot more in the past.
 
Although Favoured summed up my thoughts almost exactly, I'll post my opinion anyway. This rule, in my opinion, made pvp worse in many ways. I really enjoyed the time when you could raid any faction and they would do whatever they could to kill you. Now you go to raid and they spam you with "Give me your RP reason now" followed by "I'm reporting you". It is really annoying. I also believe this rule blocks any chance of a world war. Look at the old world wars. We did not fight them because they were RP evil and we were RP good, we fought them because they were assholes and we had hanour. Wars do not have that personal feeling to them anymore.

Not to mention the part of this rule that states you can raid for logical reasons is completely thrown out the window and disregarded. I have seen a situation where someone was completely disallowed to raid because he had an RP reason rather than a logical reason. I understand the server may not be ready to go ahead and bring back the pvp from the old days, however, I think that actually allowing people to raid for logical reasons would be a good start.

On a closing thought, I agree with what favoured said about how this rule only creates proxy wars. When you have two pvp power houses, for an example Magnanimus and Valyria, who can't raid anyone other than eachother, they will both jump right into any war possible. Why? Because that is the only way to get any pvp on new grounds. Although I understand why people would disagree with this idea, as most people are not pvpers anymore, I personally do support this idea.
 
Personally, I believe that the RP reason to raid is not as limiting as many assume. It's true to say that it makes it a bit more difficult for factions to head out rading, but really it takes minimal effort to come up with a sufficient reason. Anything from 'a group of blood thirsty bandits out to kill those in their locality' to 'overzealous Unionists who believe all nonconformists should be killed.'

I believe that the reason this helps is that it offers true immerssion in the MassiveCraft Medieval Universe, even if some people don't care for it. Having said that, a lot of people go out there saying that 'MassiveCraft is an RP server,' but early on, when PvP flourished, that's not how it seemed. There are a lot of PvPers who want to relive those days, and who can blame them? The MassiveCraft Team is trying to find a balance between the two and to keep everyone happy. I think if PvPers and RPers alike tried to totally immerse themselves in Aloria, they might get on a lot better with the whole system.

As for the peaceful rule, I cannot say.
 
My faction is more than two weeks old, but still 'new'.
It's only got two members, me and a friend, because I wouldn't want to recruit people to something not finished, or up to a good standard (at the very least).

As a result, if this was made into a rule I could be getting raided right now by anyone and everyone.
I don't like the idea of that.

-1 Support

[Edit]

Would also like to add, that the moment I'm done making it, I'm fine with being raided.

I could support this idea, if it was finished factions that could be raided without reason... however, how one would determine "not finished" from "just saying you're not finished so you don't get stabbed" from one another would be hard, but that's why it's an idea right?
 
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Jack The Unseen said:
My faction is more than two weeks old, but still 'new'.
It's only got two members, me and a friend, because I wouldn't want to recruit people to something not finished, or up to a good standard (at the very least).

As a result, if this was made into a rule I could be getting raided right now by anyone and everyone.
I don't like the idea of that.

-1 Support
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Well without this you could have been raided anytime anyway, so not sure that's really a reason not to support.
 
jquaile said:
As others have stated, making an empire is a reason that can allow you to attack just about everyone so long as you have some back story.
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Fair point.
Although, adding this just means they don't even need an excuse. If they can really already do just about anything, then why do we need to change it?
 
I am not a pvper. This said, I do not like the RP raid reasons rule for reasons stated by Favoured and Gridiron. That said, what I truly HATE were all those faction (Alamut, Valyria 1.0, Argonia, Magnanimus 1.0, Serenum, Chronikatr 1.0, KINGS, ext) that would attack for absolutely no reason and would then go on to raid another faction to the point that the faction was dead and all the people in it had either left for safer factions or left the server entirely. The factions that didn't even try to come up with roleplay are THE cause of the Roleplay Raid Rule. If they are controlled or destroyed I see no reason for that rule to exist.
 
I think the RP reason to raid is good and should be kept, however i think the 2 week grace period really needs to be added.
For example a while back a couple friends and I were trying to start up a faction in the Ithanian desert. For the first week or so we were fine just worked on building some walls, a farm, houses, etc... Then we started getting constantly attacked and raided by a faction known as Ninth Legion. This continued the entire life of the faction which i believe was 2 - 3 months before everyone, including myself, just got tired of it and quit the server for a little while. If the grace period rule were put in i think it would encourage people to start new factions more often, and give those new factions a chance of actually surviving to possibly become one of the next great factions.
 
I really liked raiding back when there weren't really rules about it, I actually got raided myself, something which hasn't really happend for the past 6 months..
 
@TheFinitePeach
To start off on a personal note, I was one of those raiders and you are leaving out quite a few things. Just to keep it short I will say our surrender terms at the time were minimal and fully RP, so it was your own factions stubbornness that kept the raids on.

On a more general level, I have to disagree with everyone saying this will hurt non pvp factions. Sure, it will make raids more frequent but as long as they can adapt and befriend pvpers just as smaller factions such as my first did before this rule, I see no issue.
 
@gridiron1024
Well I'm not saying we weren't stubborn idiots (we were) and i'm not saying that you didn't have a reason to raid us. (Although the fact that we went out of our way to try and stay peaceful with you before you even raided us...)
Although on a positive note we did end up developing probably what is one of the most complex tunnel networks of any faction (Many of those tunnels are still undiscovered...)

What i'm trying to say is the 2 week grace period will help new small factions build so that when inevitably they are raided by a large PVP faction they are slightly more prepared infrastructure-wise and hopefully have some allies to help defend them...
 
I find it hilarious that many of those who disagree with this idea don't actually PvP / raid. What really confuses me about some of you is that you think the RP Raid reason ACTUALLY protects you! All it does (Like @favoured stated) is create large, endless proxy wars. With this idea, at least people won't be getting banned over a rule that has no many loop holes there's no need for it to even exist.
 
I am going to start a faction by saving up with my friends... Probably, and I will always use "I want to expand my empire!" as an excuse, I will give them 3 IRL days to move or join, or be raided
 
@BenAlex144 keep in mind this is a RP server with elements of PVP even though it may not protect people it still adds a nice aspect of RP to the server the one that most prominently comes to mind is Valyria and its demon RP.
 
I remember a long time ago, I was in a faction that was a punching bag for anyone who didn't like us. There was a lot of people who don't like us. Honestly, I blamed the stubborn ruler at the time and one of the only people that pvped in the faction went and noob raided a big faction and that was a death sentence for us. The point I'm trying to make is, the faction that was raided used logical reason to destroy us, which actually seems to make more sense to me then rp because so many factions don't rp but they use logical reasoning to raid. Not sure if this helped anyone but I felt like putting it out there, usually if your raided you deserved to get raided.
 
Why not just make it so that for pvp both factions have to agree to a war so they can make an rp story if they want,or to just goof around raiding each other. It makes it fair and if you lose anything valuable you are taking responsibility for it by agreeing to the war and if a member doesn't want to be part of the war from certain factions they can just leave the factions.

EDIT:The only downside i can see in this is that the pvp factions wont have as many people willing to fight them.
 
If this was implemented, factions such as Mithril (factions with many members) would be raided day in and day out, since they have the most members and therefore "the most loot" even though most of the Mithril members don't have much but a single sword and set of armor, since they're more dedicated to RP than PvP. I do not agree with this, if you like PvP so much, there are battlegrounds that you and others can go fight in, I believe the command to get there is /warp minigames?
 
TheFinitePeach said:
@BenAlex144 keep in mind this is a RP server with elements of PVP even though it may not protect people it still adds a nice aspect of RP to the server the one that most prominently comes to mind is Valyria and its demon RP.
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I have to disagree.
I got raided by a guy who said he was a "Viking" then the next day he was recruiting ninjas into his faction... If anything it isn't even worth it. The guy didn't rp with us and he wasn't even putting any effort in to playing the part of a viking, he was simply solo raiding.
I happen to have a lot of knowledge when it comes to medieval warfare and various barbaric clans and warfairing peoples, and vikings are not solo raiders, and they do not attack in full protective plate armor. (Let alone diamond gear) And he was not raiding in a barbaric viking style at all, infact his methods were more so guerrilla tactics, hit and run or wait for one of us to step above ground and start building then jump in front of us so we'd accidentally hit him then he'd take out items.
In short the guy was just looking for an excuse and came up with one on the spot after he had already started to attack. The Roleplay rule is pretty much useless, the raiders who could care less still hardly put any effort into the roleplay reason. And those who do care start organizations like The Order or the Dwarven Council. Thats not going to change, Roleplay reason or not.
 
TiroTypo said:
I have to disagree.
I got raided by a guy who said he was a "Viking" then the next day he was recruiting ninjas into his faction...
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Ninjas are a secret sect of a Naga god, is he a Naga? Also, the group is secret and not as public as a faction.
 
Hiddenmonkey10 said:
If this was implemented, factions such as Mithril (factions with many members) would be raided day in and day out, since they have the most members and therefore "the most loot" even though most of the Mithril members don't have much but a single sword and set of armor, since they're more dedicated to RP than PvP. I do not agree with this, if you like PvP so much, there are battlegrounds that you and others can go fight in, I believe the command to get there is /warp minigames?
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I find this post to be a perfect example of people's mindset who do not understand PvP at all. Minigames are enjoyable at times, but not the same at all to raid and pot pvp. Asking pvpers to stay confined to fighting each-other and play minigames is how we got to this point of lacking war pvp.

As for the point about Mithril, I see what you are saying but we still have a harassment rule. It is not like you could be raided for more than an hour or whatever it says in the rules. On top of that, I strongly believe factions pvp should be more a part of this server. After all, it is THE factions server. Any faction could adapt to this situation, if it were accepted, however it would force some very stubborn faction leaders I have encountered over the past month to maybe actually befriend pvp factions or teach their members pvp.

As a short side note to all who disagree with this, from a personal pvp standpoint, I will say nothing in a better PvP teacher than being brutally beaten down and losing a war. That's how I learned pvp. I know several others did aswell. By watching and learning your enemy's tactics, you can learn a whole lot more about pvp than you can by playing minigames.
 
I'd simply like to state that I find this idea problematic but also value it's purpose. Ever since a "role-play" reason for raid was added, there has been a very unclear definition and rules around this that basically mean that a person can declare that they are a "mercenary, hired to raid" and happily walk across your land, killing innocent people.

I for one, look at this server as a "majority" Role-play server, with a extension of PVP to give more life action to it.
Now I can complain all day about, seeing as this is a role-play server, why does every "Tom, Richard and Harry" have God diamond armor and running around with flame one, chewing on Golden apples to regain strength, but that's another thread for another day.
What I do agree at the very least with this post, is the rules regarding when you can raid, need to be changed.

For one, it should be a go given that every person raiding actually has a Role-play background, and a lore to their Faction. I don't care if you are on the server for PVP, building or Role-play, this should be expected. Why?
Everyday Role-players are forced by the harsh reality that some people on this server "Just want to watch the world burn", at least your faction....
If Role-players have to be able to deal with the fact that people can raid your faction while you're in the middle of a Role-played feast or event, then I think that PVPers should respect that that they need some strict RP purpose to this.

A Strict RP reason doesn't suggest that you make some quick decision to name yourself a "Pirate" and say you're here to "Plunder my booty". A Strict RP reason would suggest that you have taken the time to acknowledge and respect that a lot of this server is Role-play, and create a Background/Lore for your faction, and maybe even have a part on the forums to have that validated by RP staff as Lore compliant.
This allows RPers to be SATISFIED, that they aren't here to slit your throat because of some personal grudge or they are just ****s, they actually have a Role-play reason for being here, and that has been approved.

So no, I don't think it should be completely removed, but restructured so that it works some what how a RP character does, if you want to PVP you need a Approved valid Lore compliant role-play reason.
 
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As a developer, I frequently have individuals approach me with solutions. They ask for new programs or for changes to fix this or that problem. When they do this, they are presenting me with solutions, their solution.

Instead, I always ask them for the problem. Don't ask me to implement your solution, present the problem to me. Let go of the fix you've identified and just tell me what's wrong. A good portion of the time we find some other way of resolving the issue that never would have occurred to the user.

So, instead of debating whether or not RP reasons for raiding should or should not exist (or a 2 week safety, which most seem to like), we should (more closely) focus on identifying what exactly is broken. Here are (terribly paraphrased) the problems that people have brought up, as I read them:

(my words, not their words)
BenAlex144 -- Factions aren't scary enough anymore/things have become dull.
favoured -- There are too many proxy wars now. Wars are impersonal. Staff gets pulled in, and that's annoying.
jquaile -- Old wars were better and now everyone brings the staff into things right off.
TheFinitePeach -- New factions can have a tough time when being raided too early.
DanyWood -- Not a lot of raiding noticed in the past 6 months.

Starting right off with the solution of dissolving the RP reason is necessarily going to turn this thread into a debate between RP and PVP. So instead, here are the problems the thread seems to be addressing (note that I'm leaving off the new faction item, since that was presented as a way to mitigate the initial solution Ben offered):

Faction warfare has grown stale. We see too many proxy wars, and the whole affair is bound up by a lot of annoying red tape.

So, does anyone have a solution to this problem, outside of ditching the rp-reason? It may turn out that it's all the fault of the rp reason, but we should try to focus on the problem first and see where that takes us.

levers
 
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