Archived Thoughts On A Better Economy

[BenRekt]

Ever since the huge misuse of McMMO fishing roughly 2-3 years ago, the economy as recovered at a very slow rate, and still diamonds and other "valuables" such as god armor and weapons continue to decrease in value. I have several ideas that, in my theory, would increase the value of diamonds as well as other ores and valuables

1. Remove /fix completely, and remove or reduce the durability of armor (Last I checked, armor durability was tripled in response to high axe levels). This will create a need for diamonds that currently does not really exist at the moment, because instead of being able to instantly repair armor and weapons for free, it will require diamonds, thus slowly increasing the need, and price, for them.

2. Diamond armor / diamond tools should not drop at NPC events. I don't believe this requires much explaining on how this negatively effects the economy, but spawning in diamond armor and tools will only further decrease the value of diamonds which is insanely low as is.

3. Due to MassiveRestore, there is literally now an unlimited supply of diamonds and other valuable ores in worlds outfitted with this plug-in. I believe that if it is possible, to have mined ores be replaced by stone instead of replacing the ores. I know this would probably be very hard to code, and I would rather have the first two ideas be implemented than have time spent on this one.

4. Remove getting pure regals as a voting item. This will increase the value of regals slowly but surely.

Throughout my over 2 years of playing Massive, there really hasn't been an economy for things that should really be the most valued such as god gear or diamonds. In my opinion, implementing these ideas would provide said economy that I, as well as many others, desire for the server and would also open a whole new economic side of the server that hasn't received a lot of exposure.

 

[TheComputerGeek2]

No, it would enhance your position as alchemist, and you would finally get rid of the many potions you made to level up.



Iron is used for many things, not just hoppers. Armour, fences (also in building used, not just armour), shears, for beacons in dark rooms, etc. Besides: I think an anvil takes the first place for iron usage, because they wear off and disappear. A hopper will be there forever.
So the iron will still get used and it will still be worth mining it.



If simply the ability of a hopper collecting the item would be disabled, then nothing needs to be taken down, it just wouldn't work anymore and would give someone a job. If we are still able to build them, we can also use them as decoration (yes, some builders are able to use them as decoration in their builds, so that it doesn't look sh*t) and that again would take some iron.



On the contrary: more people will take up brewing because the PVPers need the potions and rather pay for them than brewing themselves. Thus even more people will require gold for the potions. Same goes for the other ingredients.
It's by the way a rumour that you are quicker brewing with a machine. If you know how, you can brew a double chest full of potions in less than a minute.



Yes, I think it would balance the economy, no it wouldn't take away gold and iron and I don't see why diamonds should sell for more because of this?

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First of all, I had absolutely no problem getting rid of the pots I've made to level up. And I've actually been using machine assisted brewing to level and to do my regular rounds. This means that it really does not benefit me much at all. I'd much rather make a little less per pot when I can easily sell large quantities than to painfully work through them manually when the demand only goes up a little. Heck, I actually was able to sell them while I was leveling.
And about your point of a machine being slower, only poorly designed machines are slower. Someone who actually knows what they are doing, and who has a machine properly designed, will easily out brew any player not using a decent machine. Honestly, the main thing that I typically use the machines for isn't the ingredients, but the bottles since that is the most annoying and time consuming part. It is clear that you need to learn in to brewing techniques more. Also, they pay me to operate the semi automatic machine since it allows for more flexibility when considering mcmmo pots. And honestly, armor doesn't constitute anywhere near as much usage as a machine. Tell me, do people use up even a stack of iron blocks when making iron fences? In the standard case, they generally don't since you get quite a few from each block's worth of iron. As an alchemist myself, I think I'm allowed to say that I much rather have the hoppers. And hopper systems that pick up ground items are still used within brewing machines.

 

[Sephite]

nope, not realy.

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Why not? PVPers will need potions, they won't autobrew themselves, so an alchemist doing it by hand will sell. Tell me where I'm wrong.

have you any idea how much iron i used only to have enough hoppers to make semi auto brewer? mor then i ever used iron for other things combined. and i think i'm not the only one who uses stacks upon stacks of those.

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I wonder why. For me brewing by hand doesn't take much time, so why would I use my money, time and materials for semi brewers where you still need to wait the same amount of time until the potions is brewed.
But I guess: players using machines never developed a technique in brewing so they won't know how easy and quick it really is.

well yea, disable their primairy function.. so even less iron would get used.

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I think there would still be enough iron sold because it's not only used for hoppers, as I already said above.

you seriously think that gold would become more valuable? *looks towards the rift with their zombie pigman that happen to drop golden nuggets*

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No, I said more people will need it for brewing. So the demand will go up (slightly), there will be more chest shops on the market because more people will buy it and thus I can imagine more arbitrage possibilities too.
I already said, I don't think this would turn the economy completely around, just influence it so there is more interaction and actually more to do.
But of course the people who extensively use hoppers, are against that. I would have to put my chicken on grass and that would piss me off too Probably I won't bother anymore to collect the eggs, so I will buy them.. or the ready made cake :3

I actually enjoy making potions manually. It's the way they're meant to be made. Not everything has to be automatized and industrialised.

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Same here :3 Good to know there are more out there who think like me

 

[Sephite]

First of all, I had absolutely no problem getting rid of the pots I've made to level up. And I've actually been using machine assisted brewing to level and to do my regular rounds. This means that it really does not benefit me much at all. I'd much rather make a little less per pot when I can easily sell large quantities than to painfully work through them manually when the demand only goes up a little. Heck, I actually was able to sell them while I was leveling.
And about your point of a machine being slower, only poorly designed machines are slower. Someone who actually knows what they are doing, and who has a machine properly designed, will easily out brew any player not using a decent machine. Honestly, the main thing that I typically use the machines for isn't the ingredients, but the bottles since that is the most annoying and time consuming part. It is clear that you need to learn in to brewing techniques more. Also, they pay me to operate the semi automatic machine since it allows for more flexibility when considering mcmmo pots. And honestly, armor doesn't constitute anywhere near as much usage as a machine. Tell me, do people use up even a stack of iron blocks when making iron fences? In the standard case, they generally don't since you get quite a few from each block's worth of iron. As an alchemist myself, I think I'm allowed to say that I much rather have the hoppers. And hopper systems that pick up ground items are still used within brewing machines.

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This got somehow the same discussion as we had already here: http://forums.massivecraft.com/threads/standard-game-mechanic-aka-hoppers.28151/

Machine brewers will always think their way is the best, without having developed a technique to brew by hand, they also don't understand, that some people ENJOY brewing without hoppers and on the other side, players who brew by hand can't understand the machine brewers.

I'm never said potions are not selling well, I said they would sell better if not everyone is making them.

I also didn't say armour and fences are the main iron uses, it's anvils and beacons. if you want to make a stage four beacon you need 164 blocks of iron...and I would rather use iron for that than diamond

 

[TheComputerGeek2]

This got somehow the same discussion as we had already here: http://forums.massivecraft.com/threads/standard-game-mechanic-aka-hoppers.28151/

Machine brewers will always think their way is the best, without having developed a technique to brew by hand, they also don't understand, that some people ENJOY brewing without hoppers and on the other side, players who brew by hand can't understand the machine brewers.

I'm never said potions are not selling well, I said they would sell better if not everyone is making them.

I also didn't say armour and fences are the main iron uses, it's anvils and beacons. if you want to make a stage four beacon you need 164 blocks of iron...and I would rather use iron for that than diamond

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The thing is that the nurf that happened didn't actually prevent autobrewers from working, they needed minor changes to fix timers. Also, I do have my hand brewing techniques, I just prefer to use them in combination with my semi auto brewer.

 

[Party_Penguin27]

As a redstoner and as an alchemist, I can tell you that many wars will not be sanely possible as they currently stand if hoppers were to be disabled. This will further hurt the already marginalized pvp community. Also, you'd be surprised by how many people are able to make their own piston doors. And the reason that I have more potential than someone who only farms is that what I provide is generally needed more. What you are suggesting is to remove technological advances which have circulated an obscenely large amount of regals through the economy in their construction. Do you not see that hoppers are one of the biggest uses of iron? If you take away hoppers, you actually hurt the miners even more. This is on top of angering most of the server as most developed factions have machines, some of them which cost a small fortune to make. They then have to take those down. Do you really want to go down that path? On top of that, you would drive the value of gold down the drain since one of the primary uses for gold is alchemy ingredients. Since you would no longer have the same brewing capabilities, you wouldn't need anywhere near as much gold. So, do you really think that it helps the primary sector? You would take away one of the most valued ore blocks from the market essentially. While diamonds may sell for more each, gold sells much more easily due to it's mass usage.

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The pvp community is marginalized?
What?

 

[Alj23]

I'm going to weigh in here. Maybe give you something to think on. Might spark some new ideas, or just throw it into perspective for someone.

I've been on the server for a little over two years. One thing I know is that the MassiveCraft community, despite any changes, endures.

Take that a little deeper. When big changes were made, even ones we didn't like, we endure them. Worked with them. Made it work. The same concept of mind can be applied right here, right now to the economy.

When I first started playing on the server, the main source of money that people made was from chestshops in the market, and selling high end enchants and armor. Unbreaking III books would fetch anywhere between the equivalent of 500 regals on the low end, and 800 regals on the high end, just depending on how much of a supply there was at that point in time. God armor could go for upwards of today's equivalent of 2000 regals, whereas now it goes from anywhere to 400-800 regals, a significant drop. Tons of people began to produce god armor and enchantments, as it became easier. Fishing sped along the process yes, but it was not the deal breaker, I have come to realize this. We would still be in the same boat we are in now, albeit it would have taken a bit longer. The current enchantment system on MassiveCraft still allows people to produce god armor at a high rate. Nowhere near what the old system did though. If fishing was still around along with the new enchanting system, I myself along could probably make upwards of two double chest or more a day (24+ sets of armor.) Now that would be ridiculous.

But in the end, all things change. The MassiveCraft "economy" has moved away from the secondary phase of taking raw materials (diamonds and XP) and turning them into products (God armor and Weapons) to a more service based economy, where people provide services such as Real Estate sales, which is amazingly profitable, (@Terence29 could tell you), darkroom services, (@**Brandon** can confirm, his darkroom service has netted him at least 20,000 regals to date since it started, and might be even more, and there's no stoppage of business for him either,) as well as other services.

As this point, I would say be creative with your ideas. Consider a service based idea that you yourself can run with little to no worry about initial startup funds. Hell, look at what people need the most, and create a business idea based around that.

Or look at what is already selling. Lore & Art sales are booming right now. Like MonMarty said, one recent auction that is going on right now alone is guaranteed to net 20,000 regals at the least. While some deals have to be done in IRL money, there are still tons of people who do these kinds of services for regals, and they make a fortune.

So really, just take a look. The economy evolved into something new, not something bad. Sure, we'd all love for god armor and god weapons to go back up in price, but there is something we must realize, and it's the reason why god armor is so cheap. It's the only armor used in PVP. There is no entry level of armor for PVP. You either have god armor when you fight, or you die. Simple. Wearing anything else to fight in the mainstream battles isn't feasible, won't be until major changes are made. God armor is essential for any type of high level PVP, therefore it is produced in excess.

There is money to be made. Just got to work a bit harder and it and get creative along the way is all.

Spoiler: Note on the argument about Potion Machines and the Sort

Just somethings I wanted to point out.
When I joined the server, using potions in PVP wasn't a thing. Neither was god armor. The PVP on MassiveCraft hadn't advanced to that point yet. Even when potions become used in PVP, you /might/ have carried one of each type of buff and a few drinkable healths, but not much more. Only within the last one and a half years has the potion PVP we know today become relevant. And when it did, they were brewed by hand. And then the wars become a lot large and way more resource consuming, and the age of auto potion machines came along. At first they were crude, and then they got better, and then they got to the point of fully automatic, and a perfect design was narrowed down. One such person (Gridiron1024) knew the best design, and would install them for 1000 regals each for people. He could make 2-4K regals off the machine installation in like an hour or two's time.
Point being, what was originally nonexistent eventually became automated and developed into a service based industry. Some people knew how to do it, a lot of people hired others to build it for them, myself included, being one the people who made the machines for others. There is money to be made in service based industry, just looks for it.

 

[**Brandon**]

@Alj23, thank you for making some of all of this a bit more clear to people. (The history lesson was great too, it's interesting to see/remember what it was like back when.)

As to ways of making money, I'm unsure if players are complaining about it, or? If so, just because god armor has lost most of its value doesn't mean the economy is failing. Like Alj said above there are plenty of ways to make thousands of regals, some new, some yet old.

Anyhow, I provide darkrooming services and some other special features yet to come! Check out this link if you're interested in renting out a darkroom for a really cheap price. http://forums.massivecraft.com/threads/bdg67s-darkroom-business.26657/

 

[BenRekt]

This post wasn't made just becuase I can't sell diamonds or god gear, neither of which I have really put a lot of effort into selling, despite the conclusions that some people have been jumping to. If you really want to gurantee that you will make money, go into a dark room and kill mobs for 3 hours to pass the time. Overall this post is more about beginning to filter out the mass amounts diamonds that have accumulated over the period of time since /fix was added.

To be totally honest, I should've made the main idea of this post concerning making a diamond / ore sink rather than speaking about the "economy" which is basically only building and selling lore items.

 

[TheComputerGeek2]

This post wasn't made just becuase I can't sell diamonds or god gear, neither of which I have really put a lot of effort into selling, despite the conclusions that some people have been jumping to. If you really want to gurantee that you will make money, go into a dark room and kill mobs for 3 hours to pass the time. Overall this post is more about beginning to filter out the mass amounts diamonds that have accumulated over the period of time since /fix was added.

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E:facepalms, "Derailing, we're doing it right"

 

[krios41]

Why not? PVPers will need potions, they won't autobrew themselves, so an alchemist doing it by hand will sell. Tell me where I'm wrong.

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PVP'rs will make them themselves, that's how they do it now and that's, (i guess) how they will alway's do it. War is about profit, you don't make good profit when you go buy a mass amount of pots do you?.

I wonder why. For me brewing by hand doesn't take much time, so why would I use my money, time and materials for semi brewers where you still need to wait the same amount of time until the potions is brewed.
But I guess: players using machines never developed a technique in brewing so they won't know how easy and quick it really is.

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i can make you a semi-automatic brewer that makes 45 potions in just a tiny litle more time then you make 3 by hand, don't you dare say now that my way isn't quicker or more efficient, because you still train your aclhemy with this semi-automatic brewer.
and trust me, i'm all about (time) efficientie.

I think there would still be enough iron sold because it's not only used for hoppers, as I already said above.

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yea yea, it still would be sold, but much less, i never said it was only used for hoppers, but hoppers use a lot.

No, I said more people will need it for brewing. So the demand will go up (slightly), there will be more chest shops on the market because more people will buy it and thus I can imagine more arbitrage possibilities too.

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the demand in potions would not go up because you disable hoppers, teh demand will stay the same. if you disabled hoppers i won't suddenly stop making potions because i can't use my semi-automatic brewer. no i would just do it by hand, and i bet pvp'rs would do that too, i see no increase in demand here, if you see it, then go ahead and tell me.

Spoiler: dis be in spoiler cause this is mainly abut me :p

But of course the people who extensively use hoppers, are against that. I would have to put my chicken on grass and that would piss me off too Probably I won't bother anymore to collect the eggs, so I will buy them.. or the ready made cake :3

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as i said, i (so this is specificaly about me, could aply to others to tough) am all about efficientie, if that means i have to put my chicken on grass in order to safe a few regals i will do that and tadaa, demand on my side for eggs didn't go up while i did make my cake.

 

[Sparrow26]

I think this thread should be locked at this point... Last post was Monday, and I think all opinions and voices have been heard on the topic.