Archived Swords Vs Axes

[JeanLucMontou]

I've played MassiveCraft for awhile now and it's had MCMMO for longer than I have been around. My observations on PvP weapons is that Axes are the preferred weapon by far. I ask "Why is this?". Well it turns out that Axes do bonus damage to armor, making long fights destructive on the wallet when dealing with god armor. Axes also have the opportunity for critical hit chances, as well as the opportunity for great Force hits that is mainly useful for mobs, but can be used for its KnockBack2 capability. Overall, the damage capabilities of the Axe are undeniable as an effective and devastating weapon in the right hands.

Now let's turn our view to te melee capabilities of Swords. You can block, yes, but doing so is hardly effective in Minecraft settings as both players seem to simply swing away wildly until someone spills their inventory (I like to call it guts :] ) and dies. While swords don't do bonus damage to armor, they do have the ability to do bleed damage. I'm not sure if this stacks, but I am pretty sure that the damage can be lessened by armor level. So in god armor, this almost negates the usefulness of bleed or bleed+ from serrated strikes. Another notation that I have for swords is that while both weapons can have sharp5, only swords can have fire enchants and knock back, unless of course the axe has it manually placed by staff or a mod. The counter attack of swords is not that useful in my opinion, as the axe-wielding enemy is bound to be swinging wildly at you without pause, and a small chance to return 30% of his own damage of one of his stikes is hardly comparable to the massive criticals that spam your chat.

I feel that Axes are easily overpowering to Swords in equal combat. It seems as though if you simply made bleed effects do more damage (a full heart per tick or more) and/or the bleed effects bypass armor. (With the logic that bleeding out has really nothing to do with armor. You're bleeding and it's going to happen.) Perhaps there could be a small chance for a sword strike to bypass armor and/or crit? As fighting with a sword would allow for more accurate strikes than a big heavy axe. Several people who I've spoken to agree that it would be a plausible notion for the possibility of a sword critical strike (of very low chance - equal to 5% or so) that could be placed upon a chink in the armor (bypassing armor level).

What are you guys' thoughts on this? Don't forget to vote on the poll!

 

[TheTerrawr]

I've played MassiveCraft for awhile now and it's had MCMMO for longer than I have been around. My observations on PvP weapons is that Axes are the preferred weapon by far. I ask "Why is this?". Well it turns out that Axes do bonus damage to armor, making long fights destructive on the wallet when dealing with god armor. Axes also have the opportunity for critical hit chances, as well as the opportunity for great Force hits that is mainly useful for mobs, but can be used for its KnockBack2 capability. Overall, the damage capabilities of the Axe are undeniable as an effective and devastating weapon in the right hands.

Now let's turn our view to te melee capabilities of Swords. You can block, yes, but doing so is hardly effective in Minecraft settings as both players seem to simply swing away wildly until someone spills their inventory (I like to call it guts :] ) and dies. While swords don't do bonus damage to armor, they do have the ability to do bleed damage. I'm not sure if this stacks, but I am pretty sure that the damage can be lessened by armor level. So in god armor, this almost negates the usefulness of bleed or bleed+ from serrated strikes. Another notation that I have for swords is that while both weapons can have sharp5, only swords can have fire enchants and knock back, unless of course the axe has it manually placed by staff or a mod. The counter attack of swords is not that useful in my opinion, as the axe-wielding enemy is bound to be swinging wildly at you without pause, and a small chance to return 30% of his own damage of one of his stikes is hardly comparable to the massive criticals that spam your chat.

I feel that Axes are easily overpowering to Swords in equal combat. It seems as though if you simply made bleed effects do more damage (a full heart per tick or more) and/or the bleed effects bypass armor. (With the logic that bleeding out has really nothing to do with armor. You're bleeding and it's going to happen.) Perhaps there could be a small chance for a sword strike to bypass armor and/or crit? As fighting with a sword would allow for more accurate strikes than a big heavy axe. Several people who I've spoken to agree that it would be a plausible notion for the possibility of a sword critical strike (of very low chance - equal to 5% or so) that could be placed upon a chink in the armor (bypassing armor level).

What are you guys' thoughts on this? Don't forget to vote on the poll!

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I agree with everything apart from the sword critical strike.
A- Without a new plugin, or a complete recode for a massiveMCMMO plugin,nits impossible to add.
B- I would have a 5% chance to knock over half the enemies health off. That's waaaaay to much. Personally, I think the ability to have flame on a sword is enough, because with the bleed that does a lot of DoT.

Edit: also, counters got needed a while back due to them negating armour I believe. So 30% of an armour negated strII skull split.... Yeah. People got 2 shot from counters.

 

[krios41]

the only advantage i see in using swords is the durabilety. with swords you use 1 of your urabilety at a time wile with aces you use 2 per hit, there the advantage ends i think?

 

[gridiron1024]

If you are against a good pvper swords are a joke. Sure you could run some crazy trait loadout that you may think will work, but in the end swords will always lose.

 

[TheTerrawr]

the only advantage i see in using swords is the durabilety. with swords you use 1 of your urabilety at a time wile with aces you use 2 per hit, there the advantage ends i think?

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DoT
Small counter chance
Longer reach (?)


Maybe, a suggestion could be to slightly up the chance to have a trait activate. Axes a 5%, archery at 30% and maybe swords at 7.5%-10%?

 

[Mecharic]

Axes are OP as all kinds of f*ck. I used to train swords back when axes sucked, but now a god-swords + high sword stats < axe with decent axe stats.

In all honesty, axes should deal more damage than swords - they're heavier and sturdier and put more force into the blow. At the same time, however, a sword should be faster, since it's lighter and more streamlined than an axe. But nope, swords don't have any advantages over axes, no matter the sword or skill involved. Maybe if Bleed was made more powerful, or skullsplitter was weakened.

 

[Johto_Jo]

Pfft if only it worked like Fire Emblem <3 http://www.geek-envy.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/weapon1.gif

I've used swords since the beginning ; ^; but it was a purely aesthetic choice x3 Aaaah... Forever a role player. ou o I wish swords had a speed advantage, but I have no idea how that could be implemented

 

[JeanLucMontou]

I personally think if bleed did more damage and negated armor, it would even the two weapons out. It doesn't make sense that bleeding is affected by armor.

 

[TheTerrawr]

I personally think if bleed did more damage and negated armor, it would even the two weapons out. It doesn't make sense that bleeding is affected by armor.

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Bleed is affected by armour, as the higher the armour type the less chance of hitting skin thus making a bleed bad enough to actually damage a person.

 

[JeanLucMontou]

If you're already bleeding, it's not about being able to hit skin. The chance of causing bleed could be directly related to your skill in striking for the chinks. If you're already bleeding, your level of armor can't stop it.

 

[Molimo]

While I can't say whether one or the other is more OP, I can say that I prefer swords. That is... until I got my hands on a really good bow. Now I just go pew pew pew from 30+ blocks away.

I guess bows are like black. Once you go there, you never go back.

 

[Brycea111]

If you are against a good pvper swords are a joke. Sure you could run some crazy trait loadout that you may think will work, but in the end swords will always lose.

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This is completely wrong, I've seen good pvpers destroyed by swords. Don't get me wrong, they aren't the best. But they are still up there.

 

[XvW]

In my opinion the best way to balance this would be to either remove criticals from axes by changing this

Spoiler

CriticalHit:
# ChanceMax: Maximum chance of causing a critical hit when on <MaxBonusLevel> or higher
# MaxBonusLevel: Level where <ChanceMax> of causing critical hits is reached
ChanceMax: 37.50
MaxBonusLevel: 750
# Damage modifier of critical hits for PVP / PVE, when causing a critical hit the damage gets multiplied by the modifier
PVP_Modifier: 1.5
PVE_Modifier: 2.0

in advanced.yml or by doing what @Terrariauk suggested and increase the trait chances for swords.

 

[Mostlyhuman]

Your level of armor can stop the sword from hitting the skin. Considering armor is supposed to be protective. In battle it's hard to hit the "chinks".

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Oh please. Don't even bring realism into PVP. Minecraft PVP has such little realism, any science instructor would cry.
PVP should have pragmatic thinking put into it, since, really, all PVP is to a PVP'er on here is a chance to swing a weapon at someone.

What would you consider "Bleed Chance" then? If I hit a guy with my blade, what's this "Bleed Chance"? Certainly I'm not glancing him in the chest and a bleeding wound magically appears. No, I'm hitting a "Chink" as you so call it. Yes, the chance is retardedly high, but that is due to people putting in the time to train themselves to do so.
And what of my hitting you again and deepening the wound? Wouldn't that cause further bleeding? No, because that is not supported in the code.
Do we even know for a fact what the armor on here looks like? Can you really determine how big or where your "Chinks" are?

A bleed ignoring armor would make perfect sense in most situations.

 

[XvW]

And what of my hitting you again and deepening the wound? Wouldn't that cause further bleeding? No, because that is not supported in the code.
.

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"Bleeds can have their duration increased if another Bleed is applied. (e.g. if the player has Bleed with 3 ticks remaining and another 3-ticks Bleed was applied, Bleed will last for 6 ticks in total.)" - Mcmmo Wiki

 

[TheTerrawr]

Oh please. Don't even bring realism into PVP. Minecraft PVP has such little realism, any science instructor would cry.
PVP should have pragmatic thinking put into it, since, really, all PVP is to a PVP'er on here is a chance to swing a weapon at someone.

What would you consider "Bleed Chance" then? If I hit a guy with my blade, what's this "Bleed Chance"? Certainly I'm not glancing him in the chest and a bleeding wound magically appears. No, I'm hitting a "Chink" as you so call it. Yes, the chance is retardedly high, but that is due to people putting in the time to train themselves to do so.
And what of my hitting you again and deepening the wound? Wouldn't that cause further bleeding? No, because that is not supported in the code.
Do we even know for a fact what the armor on here looks like? Can you really determine how big or where your "Chinks" are?

A bleed ignoring armor would make perfect sense in most situations.

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If bleed ignores armour, than the chance would need to be lowered to get a bleed.

Also. Your post says don't bring realism into PVP, then you go about realism to do with chinks? I'm sorry what?

 

[Mostlyhuman]

"Bleeds can have their duration increased if another Bleed is applied. (e.g. if the player has Bleed with 3 ticks remaining and another 3-ticks Bleed was applied, Bleed will last for 6 ticks in total.)" - Mcmmo Wiki

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~Le Facepalm~ ...Mis-read that. My bad. Though it could be argued this server isn't 100% in unison with the values on MCMMO wiki, I'm not entirely sure on that posted there.

If bleed ignores armour, than the chance would need to be lowered to get a bleed.

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That'd be fine by me, really. I mean, it is pointed out it would be difficult to make that sort of strike (If we're going to bring realism into this.)

...As for the other point of your post that refused to load for me, I simply... Sort of just kept to realism to make a firmer point to the argument in this audience as it stands now, though I keep to my own opinion.

 

[XvW]

~Le Facepalm~ ...Mis-read that. My bad. Though it could be argued this server isn't 100% in unison with the values on MCMMO wiki, I'm not entirely sure on that posted there.

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No problem.. And no, that is not something that can be changed without re-coding the plugin, You can however change the amount of ticks per bleed (default: 2 ticks at levels 0-749 and 3 ticks level 750+) and the chance of the bleed occurring (default: 0.1% per level)

 

[gridiron1024]

This is completely wrong, I've seen good pvpers destroyed by swords. Don't get me wrong, they aren't the best. But they are still up there.

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Then either they are complete morons and not good pvpers or you were either behind the 30% buff (Anything seems good in that case) or it was before the 15% premium buff was removed. Swords were decent before the buff was removed but after the 15% was gone, they get out damaged by axes unbelievably right now.

 

[Madus]

So I am doing the rig thing and training axes not swords. Yay

 

[Madus]

But since most PvP'ers use axe. Then more people, will have AxeResistant, than SwordResistant. So in some cases sword might be better.

 

[Mecharic]

Your level of armor can stop the sword from hitting the skin. Considering armor is supposed to be protective. In battle it's hard to hit the "chinks".

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But if you put a master swordsman (1k + swords) against someone in diamond armor, they will find the chinks in battle because they are skilled enough to do so. Besides this, once you bleed you've already been hit, the difficulty is irrelevant, and armor doesn't stop you from bleeding after you've been hit - so why should it stop you from bleeding in-game after you've been hit?

 

[Madus]

I am not sure how the bleeding works. But from a realistic POV, armour would lower the chance of being hit, and therefore the chance of starting to bleed. When you bleed armour makes no difference.

 

[JeanLucMontou]

"Bleeds can have their duration increased if another Bleed is applied. (e.g. if the player has Bleed with 3 ticks remaining and another 3-ticks Bleed was applied, Bleed will last for 6 ticks in total.)" - Mcmmo Wiki

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That's not what he's saying. He's talking about a "stack" effect, which would also be a pleasing change to bring swords back into the equation of pvp.

 

[XvW]

That's not what he's saying. He's talking about a "stack" effect, which would also be a pleasing change to bring swords back into the equation of pvp.

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This is what is changable with sword skills, nothing more can be done to enhance the bleed. (Note: the displayed values are default and not the ones used by MassiveCraft)

Spoiler

# MaxBonusLevel: On this level, the chance to cause Bleeding will be <ChanceMax>
ChanceMax: 75.0
MaxBonusLevel: 750
# These settings determine how long the Bleeding effect lasts
MaxTicks: 3
BaseTicks: 2
Counter:
# RequiresBlock: Determines if blocking is required to trigger counter attack
RequiresBlock: true
# ChanceMax: Maximum chance of triggering a counter attack
# MaxBonusLevel: On this level, the chance to Counter will be <ChanceMax>
ChanceMax: 30.0
MaxBonusLevel: 600
# DamageModifier: Damaged caused by the damager will get divided by this modifier and dealt back to the damager
DamageModifier: 2.0
SerratedStrikes:
# DamageModifier: Damage will get divided by this modifier
# BleedTicks: This determines how long the bleeding effect of SerratedStrikes lasts
DamageModifier: 4.0
BleedTicks: 5

And here is the config for axes

Spoiler

Axes:
AxeMastery:
# MaxBonus: Maximum bonus damage when on <MaxBonusLevel> or higher
# MaxBonusLevel: Level where <MaxBonus> is reached
MaxBonus: 4.0
MaxBonusLevel: 200
CriticalHit:
# ChanceMax: Maximum chance of causing a critical hit when on <MaxBonusLevel> or higher
# MaxBonusLevel: Level where <ChanceMax> of causing critical hits is reached
ChanceMax: 37.50
MaxBonusLevel: 750
# Damage modifier of critical hits for PVP / PVE, when causing a critical hit the damage gets multiplied by the modifier
PVP_Modifier: 1.5
PVE_Modifier: 2.0
GreaterImpact:
# Chance: Chance of hitting with GreaterImpact, mobs are knocked backwards when successful
# KnockbackModifier: Velocity modifier of GreaterImpact hits, this determines how great the knockback is
# BonusDamage: Extra damage for GreaterImpact hits
Chance: 25.0
KnockbackModifier: 1.5
BonusDamage: 2.0
ArmorImpact:
# IncreaseLevel: Every <IncreaseLevel> the durability damage goes up with 1
# Chance: Chance of hitting with ArmorImpact
# MaxPercentageDurabilityDamage: Durability damage cap for ArmorImpact, 20% means that you can never destroy a piece of armor in less than 5 hits
IncreaseLevel: 50
Chance: 25.0
MaxPercentageDurabilityDamage: 20.0
SkullSplitter:
# DamageModifier: Damage will get divided by this modifier
DamageModifier: 2.0

If you want something changed with mcmmo you will have to suggest alterations to these things. (Though these are still only default values for mcmmo)

 

[Gabauchi]

What I find with the most cases concerning pvp, most sword user's really only debate this because they unknowingly trained swords, not knowing about all the plusses axes get. And not only that, but axes have a certain plus that goes past the 1000 cap. So, if someone were to find a clear cut winner, it would be axes. But if I need an excuse for why I prefer swords, it is that the critical hit is a nuisance that I prefer not having on my screen, in my ears, and I would like my opponent in front of me, instead of at the other side of the arena.

 

[JeanLucMontou]

My recommendation is to increase damage by bleed. If it can be configured by immediate damage without being affected by armor (or if for whatever reason it is, it needs to stack).

 

[faiyde sp04]

What would be nice is if attacking someone who is blocking gave you a one or two second negative resistance effect, as though your put off balance by your blow being deflected.
It would make a sword's blocking more useful and bring in an actual counter-attack aspect, as opposed to that mystical-sometimes-damage-reflect thing.


Or if revenge traits are more likely to occur when you are blocking.

 

[Kingpheonixxxxxxxx]

In my PvP opinion, when it comes to fighting against groups, you would use axes, when it is against 1 person. A sword is best. Shortly before my ban I maxed out my swords because I had the plan to bring a normal diamond sword and a god axe into group battles. Just serrated strikes and then skull split. If you have the right traites then you will win. I have done it plenty of times. It always works.

 

[Dogdude1284]

I think that axes are more effective when more hits per second are being dished out in a close quarters combat situation axes can easily wreck someone with a sword but out in the open with more strafing and more time involved the dps that swords allows can become a great advantage.

 

[FCCarnilord]

Axes beat swords any day.

Oh, and people might actually be able to block attacks successfully, but by "block hitting" which is decently practical at the cost of one's speed and being made fun of by... everyone.
Which doesn't make sense.

Axes deal substantial amounts of damage to armor, and even on a server where 100 axes was the cap, VS 250 swords, the axe man would most likely win (However, I did leave out skill as a factor, but that isn't my current point) where with swords, the bleed would do some decent damage, and slow people down, because when you are hurt you have a knockback effect, successfully slowing you down. You can possibly catch up, get in ~1 heart extra damage then.
With only 100 axes, the server's axe damage to armor made it break 3x faster then swords in combat.
With people constantly making Prot 4, and actually bringing 2 sets in their inventory to replace what was broken, this was only with 100 axes, to the level of swords, which it's cap was 2.5x higher. Axes was better to level up, and more useful per level compared to swords. My MCMMO Axes is about 450 on Massive, and I do 10 bonus damage to armor, and some reasonable percentage for critical strikes. Whoever's armor breaks first is nearly guaranteed to lose first. Helmet goes, more damage is taken. Scramble to equip the helmet, take more damage while in inventory, boots break. More damage is taken, scramble, more damage. After a decent few more hits, leggings are gone. It's noticeable you can die in around 2-3 shots. Chestplate gone, you are dead. The chat is filled with you taking damage from critical strikes, I mean what can you do?

SWORDS- Yea, this might be a long battle. Armor is kept in tact considering, perhaps he can die of bleed. Whoever has more MCMMO rarely matters, it's just being able to land more hits then the other guy. Armor lasts what seems forever, potions go out, death is horrifying, but the winner gets more by the kill if played correctly.

SWORDS VS AXE- There is no doubt, you hold a sword, your foe, an axe. You take impossible damage, an average 3 more. That's a full heart and a half difference, you better be packing Regen 2 and health. He has strength, you take even more damage. Armor breaks, if you can't escape, you are dead. No doubt.

Any server that's a server with PVP MCMMO enabled says axes will kick your ass. Unless the person has little skill. Then you've got a chance.
(Note I am tired, there is probably a mess up in here.)

 

[Dogdude1284]

Axes beat swords any day.

Oh, and people might actually be able to block attacks successfully, but by "block hitting" which is decently practical at the cost of one's speed and being made fun of by... everyone.
Which doesn't make sense.

Axes deal substantial amounts of damage to armor, and even on a server where 100 axes was the cap, VS 250 swords, the axe man would most likely win (However, I did leave out skill as a factor, but that isn't my current point) where with swords, the bleed would do some decent damage, and slow people down, because when you are hurt you have a knockback effect, successfully slowing you down. You can possibly catch up, get in ~1 heart extra damage then.
With only 100 axes, the server's axe damage to armor made it break 3x faster then swords in combat.
With people constantly making Prot 4, and actually bringing 2 sets in their inventory to replace what was broken, this was only with 100 axes, to the level of swords, which it's cap was 2.5x higher. Axes was better to level up, and more useful per level compared to swords. My MCMMO Axes is about 450 on Massive, and I do 10 bonus damage to armor, and some reasonable percentage for critical strikes. Whoever's armor breaks first is nearly guaranteed to lose first. Helmet goes, more damage is taken. Scramble to equip the helmet, take more damage while in inventory, boots break. More damage is taken, scramble, more damage. After a decent few more hits, leggings are gone. It's noticeable you can die in around 2-3 shots. Chestplate gone, you are dead. The chat is filled with you taking damage from critical strikes, I mean what can you do?

SWORDS- Yea, this might be a long battle. Armor is kept in tact considering, perhaps he can die of bleed. Whoever has more MCMMO rarely matters, it's just being able to land more hits then the other guy. Armor lasts what seems forever, potions go out, death is horrifying, but the winner gets more by the kill if played correctly.

SWORDS VS AXE- There is no doubt, you hold a sword, your foe, an axe. You take impossible damage, an average 3 more. That's a full heart and a half difference, you better be packing Regen 2 and health. He has strength, you take even more damage. Armor breaks, if you can't escape, you are dead. No doubt.

Any server that's a server with PVP MCMMO enabled says axes will kick your ass. Unless the person has little skill. Then you've got a chance.
(Note I am tired, there is probably a mess up in here.)

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well in massive axes are generally more effective but if you remember counters evened the playing field a little

 

[JeanLucMontou]

Not really. While you spend time blocking and attacking, he's still swinging like a hurricane and you just did less dps.

 

[XvW]

Not really. While you spend time blocking and attacking, he's still swinging like a hurricane and you just did less dps.

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The need to block for counters can be disabled in the config, however this may make swords too powerful instead.

 

[gridiron1024]

Everyone trying to argue swords even stand a chance is simply wrong. Although there was a time where they were decent, I can assure you from testing both axes and swords that swords suck. Although in theory they are good support weapons for fire and bleed, it really does not translate well at all. I can guarantee that even without sword resistance I could out damage just about everyone using a sword even if they run axe resistance. That being said, I know several people who run both axe and sword resistance traits, and sword resistance will render swords 100% useless.

 

[Mecharic]

So basically PvP is so skewed that the only way to win is to use an axe, which basically makes the existence of other weapons pointless.

Why haven't staff balanced this out yet? They sure jumped on the power of disarm and counters fast enough -_-

 

[Sarge_Peppers]

If you are smart you use both. You take a god sword into battle pearl in and beat them up with serrated strikes. When that wheres off you go to town with your axe.

 

[JeanLucMontou]

I would like to see something done to bring swords back into pvp as a viable option. Even if it focuses more on DoT effects (stacks of 'Bleed' with more 'Bleed' damage and hopefully ignorance to armor with maybe slightly less of a 'Bleed' strike chance). I feel that focusing more on DoT would compensate better towards those long fights that axes thrive on to finally break that god armor and win. DoT could make up for that by consistently doing a considerable amount of damage once you get a good 3 or 4 stacks of 'Bleed'. Just like a swordsman has to consider the hefty damage coming from axe crits, I think axemen should have to consider the same caution and wariness for the swords Bleed damage and stacks.

 

[XvW]

I would like to see something done to bring swords back into pvp as a viable option. Even if it focuses more on DoT effects (stacks of 'Bleed' with more 'Bleed' damage and hopefully ignorance to armor with maybe slightly less of a 'Bleed' strike chance). .

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Sadly, a change like this will not be possible without contacting the coders of mcmmo and convincing them to add an option to configure the bleed damage and making several stacks tick at ones.
The only thing the MassiveCraft team can do right now is edit the config files that can be found HERE.

 

[thor5648]

Axes are OP as all kinds of f*ck. I used to train swords back when axes sucked, but now a god-swords + high sword stats < axe with decent axe stats.

In all honesty, axes should deal more damage than swords - they're heavier and sturdier and put more force into the blow. At the same time, however, a sword should be faster, since it's lighter and more streamlined than an axe. But nope, swords don't have any advantages over axes, no matter the sword or skill involved. Maybe if Bleed was made more powerful, or skullsplitter was weakened.

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I agree with 99% of what you said there, not sure when you last tested skull split. It it had a HUGE nerf and sieces to be effective.