I think its time to call it. This has been a failed experiment.
Not only are some larger factions not able to keep all of their builds, I have actually heard a bunch of people cancel their premium subscription because this has been a... final straw if you will. Not to mention the people who have just quit outright.
I've always hated taxes with a vengeance. If they really NEED some sort of money loss for chunks, it should be in claiming. 10r for every chunk claimed, but no taxes or repeating payments. That's just pulling money away from the economy. Alternately, once weekly or once monthly would be... acceptable. The old tax level was tolerable, but this is not.
Let me ask to clarify tho. So say that 2r/chunk is the current tax. You have 10 chunks therefore 20r a day. Which would be 140r a week. Do you mean that consolidating it so.. every, say, Sunday night you get charged 140r instead of 20r a day? Or would it be that 20r a week?
Let me ask to clarify tho. So say that 2r/chunk is the current tax. You have 10 chunks therefore 20r a day. Which would be 140r a week. Do you mean that consolidating it so.. every, say, Sunday night you get charged 140r instead of 20r a day? Or would it be that 20r a week?
but with double tax, noob faction dont exist, it helps good faction live, and with 100r a day, you SHOULD be able to afford taxes.
there is no argument, increase of tax helped.
but with double tax, noob faction dont exist, it helps good faction live, and with 100r a day, you SHOULD be able to afford taxes.
there is no argument, increase of tax helped.
But that was also fixed because of it taking more money to create a faction. Large factions are not the issue here and yet some of them are hurting badly. So i do not think the positives outweigh the negatives on this one
But that was also fixed because of it taking more money to create a faction. Large factions are not the issue here and yet some of them are hurting badly. So i do not think the positives outweigh the negatives on this one
everyone in general chat says "taxes should be raised, FAction made more expensive....more money drains...." but when the staff make a drain, everyone comes back cryin about things being expensive.
same happened with traits. People complained it made pvp unfair, so they did something, now people are mad again.
I agree, this is horrible, and even now with my 400r upkeep I am trying to sell cities, and none will by them, why? because they don't want to pay the ridiculous upkeep either.
This could very well ruin the "building" economy, and the size of cities, etc. Pretty much ruining factions.
everyone in general chat says "taxes should be raised, FAction made more expensive....more money drains...." but when the staff make a drain, everyone comes back cryin about things being expensive.
same happened with traits. People complained it made pvp unfair, so they did something, now people are mad again.
Hey. I was totally IN FAVOR of the tax raise. And to be completely honest, personally i'm unaffected by the change and im doing fine. So this is not me whining that I was inconvienced.
BUT! I have seen a lot of people already cancel their premium and quit. Other people are also upset that they have to unclaim their builds in order to meet the daily tax. So I do think that the positives are small in comparison to the overall negatives. These are the people who were either indifferent or against the tax mainly. How were we supposed to know it would end up this way? Thats why im saying it was a failed experiment. Not all ideas work.
I agree, this is horrible, and even now with my 400r upkeep I am trying to sell cities, and none will by them, why? because they don't want to pay the ridiculous upkeep either.
This could very well ruin the "building" economy, and the size of cities, etc. Pretty much ruining factions.
Hey. I was totally IN FAVOR of the tax raise. And to be completely honest, personally i'm unaffected by the change and im doing fine. So this is not me whining that I was inconvienced.
BUT! I have seen a lot of people already cancel their premium and quit. Other people are also upset that they have to unclaim their builds in order to meet the daily tax. So I do think that the positives are small in comparison to the overall negatives
is this still aimed at me? I dont see how this is being aimed at the people i was referring to in my reply... Let me say again.. I personally am virtually uneffected by this change. This thread is not about me!
is this still aimed at me? I dont see how this is being aimed at the people i was referring to in my reply... Let me say again.. I personally am virtually uneffected by this change. This thread is not about me!
People with small factions and people that have crap tons of regals... they dont really care i dont think. They either have a very small tax or so much money that they can always pay it. So small factions and rich people u mention here... dont really apply
This hasn't affected me too much but I have seen a mass of people selling property and builds just to not have outrageous tax. It has killed off some of the smaller factions. So this is what I was thinking:
Maybe we could have a purge-type thing go on every couple months were tax is raised to get rid of the weak factions.
Playing the devil's advocate: Maybe the product you are selling is of low relative value to the size of land. Maybe your price is too high. Maybe the market for faction sales is over saturated, maybe your faction you are selling is in the wrong world. These are all valid factors that are ignored in your statement while they are just as valid.
Which is encouraged by making people want to earn more money, which is encouraged by making people lose more money on luxury products. If the point of the argument is to present it in a one faceted way to support the claim then yeah. The economy does not benefit from a blanket reduction in purchasing power of every player. However you cannot define a money sink as bad overall, as larger money sinks higher up in the economy require richer people to earn more money, which in turn provides work or higher taxes for their faction members, which in turns motivates them to earn more money. Actual functioning trickle down economics.
Correct. but you also cannot just assume that since money sinks are good in certain situations that they are always good. That was my point in saying what i said about money sinks above
I'm a student learning about economics. The server is hyper inflating the economy, which means there will be stagflation (lack of spending). The fact that the server is promoting spending(in the ways of taxation everyday) one counteracts the inflationary methods, and two creates a form of spending. The fact that people want free money without any countermeasures is just one reason people are stupid.
Correct. but you also cannot just assume that since money sinks are good in certain situations that they are always good. That was my point in saying what i said about money sinks above
I can if it counts for the majority of the cases, which it does. The only actual case where is it 100% not is when it only affects poor people (which nothing on Massive currently does) and when it affects poor people and rich people in the same degree (which isn't even that base, because if the relative proportions remain the same, you simple change the base value and there is no actual change in the financial gap.
Money sinks on the server are always a good thing unless they make only poor people pay, which does not occur, ergo all money sinks are good.
I can if it counts for the majority of the cases, which it does. The only actual case where is it 100% not is when it only affects poor people (which nothing on Massive currently does) and when it affects poor people and rich people in the same degree (which isn't even that base, because if the relative proportions remain the same, you simple change the base value and there is no actual change in the financial gap.
Money sinks on the server are always a good thing unless they make only poor people pay, which does not occur, ergo all money sinks are good.
Financial gaps are good. Financial equality is terrible. People think that if everyone is equal everyone will be happy. It's a fallacy only people who aren't greedy can easily see.
I'm not going to be premium anymore because the server no longer has a place for people who just want to build. Creative is lame af, but survival is too expensive.
Darkroom42 now costs me 50r a day to provide a darkroom for players I will probably never talk to or know. I've put donation requests in, but if nobody donates and tax stays the same I'll need to sell/unclaim the darkroom.
And that's assuming that my primary project, Qubais City, doesn't get unclaimed/lost/reset. That's the primary reason I'm still maintaining myself on this server - to finish the project when I'm out of this college semester.
Playing the devil's advocate: Maybe the product you are selling is of low relative value to the size of land. Maybe your price is too high. Maybe the market for faction sales is over saturated, maybe your faction you are selling is in the wrong world. These are all valid factors that are ignored in your statement while they are just as valid.
The market is definitely over-saturated - everyone and their mother is selling claims they don't use enough. If your goal was to destroy loads of player builds, you've managed it.
Which is encouraged by making people want to earn more money, which is encouraged by making people lose more money on luxury products. If the point of the argument is to present it in a one faceted way to support the claim then yeah. The economy does not benefit from a blanket reduction in purchasing power of every player. However you cannot define a money sink as bad overall, as larger money sinks higher up in the economy require richer people to earn more money, which in turn provides work or higher taxes for their faction members, which in turns motivates them to earn more money. Actual functioning trickle down economics.
A number of things wrong with this:
1) There aren't a lot of ways to earn money beyond voting daily, especially now that everyone is going to be holding what wealth they have to afford these taxes.
2) Faction members don't like higher taxes, and will go to factions with lower taxes - killing many larger factions.
3) It is not possible to make-400r a day like what Gene would need, and since nobody buys his stuff now that they can't afford upkeep, he has no income. That shuts down his entire method of playing on the server. Same with others who sell builds or build for regals.
4) Trickle down doesn't work unless there is a solid, steady way to make money. Voting is a way, I guess, but not a decent one as it doesn't work within the server.
Devils Advocate: Players, both old and new, will choose not to build, expand, or create on this server due to the maintenance cost of doing so.
I can agree on the matter of inflation so, It just a very complicated senerio in which, I believe we need a large council of professional people to consider solutions with some community commentary and afterwards, have a server vote to find the best solution. Though, we will never have everybody happy.
We also have an issue of having money coming into the economy, but not coming out and disappearing, the money just goes to other players and is circulated more. So I can agree partially with the idea of faction tax being raised to help balance out the economy and the server is just way too used to getting the SUPER easy way to do things as in 100r getting you 37 chunks to do whatever you want with(as in olden times) and the faction tax has balanced itself out bit by bit. Also, this is why larger factions have faction tax and tax their players. The players don't pay their taxes, they get kicked, and the tax goes down. Faction is stronger and the weaker factions fail. This prevents super nooby-ness and keeps factions who are large alive. If factions just work together to pay tax, they can.
Financial gaps are good. Financial equality is terrible. People think that if everyone is equal everyone will be happy. It's a fallacy only people who aren't greedy can easily see.
Evidently rich people being rich is good. It means I (as a person with a skill that is in demand and the motivation and effort to work said skill into value) have a customer base that can net me 51,000 regals for 10 hours of work. But I'm sort of indicating that making the poor poorer is bad for the server as a whole because it means less purchasing power for the people who are more likely to actually buy resources which rich people tend to sell, therefor also making rich people have less profit.
I'm not going to be premium anymore because the server no longer has a place for people who just want to build. Creative is lame af, but survival is too expensive.
Understandable, but I'd still like to think the situation is also partly muddied by the fact you don't actually play anymore. I greatly appreciate your past sentiment in continuing to donate, but I dare speculate that your actual "fun" on the server stopped a long time ago and that you purely maintained a sentiment of loyalty to the server/sentiment to your past effort. It could have been the tax thing, it could have been any other change in the future.
Darkroom42 now costs me 50r a day to provide a darkroom for players I will probably never talk to or know. I've put donation requests in, but if nobody donates and tax stays the same I'll need to sell/unclaim the darkroom.
I suppose if the service is not profitable or stable, then it should die. I disagree that this is the fault of the taxes though, I'd rather say it's the fault of an unprofitable game plan, or the fact that the people who use the darkroom are just ungrateful or that the actual amount of people using the darkroom was so little that even if donations came through it wouldn't have helped. Either way, if you are unable to maintain an undependable service because it only drains you money, I don't see why that is cause to raise your fist to the establishment for raising the taxes when the cause is clearly just selfish usage.
The market is definitely over-saturated - everyone and their mother is selling claims they don't use enough. If your goal was to destroy loads of player builds, you've managed it.
If players are selling properties it means they don't need it. Mithril has several world properties and cannot pay the taxes. BillyTheGrump Grumped a bit when the taxes were raised, recruited a bunch of members and raised taxes a bit while instituting some unspoken policy of players rotating every now and then to toss some donations into the faction. He did a little bit of work to sustain an unhealthy faction because he chose not to sell everything because he wants to keep everything. I think selling parts of your faction is the cheap and easy way out. I want all players to fairly make use of the world maps as much as they can feasibly maintain with the effort they are prepared to put in. This frees up more space for new players, as well as make player's actual hard work worth that much more.
1) There aren't a lot of ways to earn money beyond voting daily, especially now that everyone is going to be holding what wealth they have to afford these taxes.
Repeatadble job island quests (not implemented but still)
Book writing.
Art making.
Music writing.
Character application writing.
Banking (you might claim it does not work because you tried, I will reply you tried it the wrong way by relying on staff to back your business like some meta-ban threat instead of imparting actual value to service).
Server PR (we actually still give free Regals to people for good PR content)
Mob grinding (boring, but should still be on the list)
building for other factions.
Excavating for other factions.
Selling items.
Harvesting resources for other players on a commission fee.
Reporting exploits successfully with a proper bug report on the forum.
Selling lore items.
raiding factions and demanding tribute.
offering RP services for money.
offering raid/protection services for money.
tax your members.
receive negative taxes from your faction (you can actually pay members daily with minus taxes)
Play the market (you can make a lot of money selling and buying on the /tp market, a bunch of videos were made about it)
provide other services, whatever.
Point is. Yeah you can't make a lot of money if all you're willing to do for that money is do 3 clicks at most.
Then the faction commands no loyalty which means these factions are already walking corpses anyway. Nobody left Mithril when taxes were hiked because all of these people are loyal to the faction and continue to see value in being part of it even if none of the survival worlds are being used at all.
It is not possible to make-400r a day like what Gene would need, and since nobody buys his stuff now that they can't afford upkeep, he has no income. That shuts down his entire method of playing on the server. Same with others who sell builds or build for regals.
Then he needs to be pickier about what buildings he purchases and how he sells them, perhaps even cut off certain parts of the claims and sell only the bits that have actual market value, and then translate the amount of days he sits on the product into the price. I think mithril pays Mithril pays like 250 regals a day for 1250 claim. How on earth do you pay 400 regals a day on builds you are holding onto??? who would even want to buy that much land? You can't convince me he has literally 2000 chunks of prime quality build land claimed.
Trickle down doesn't work unless there is a solid, steady way to make money. Voting is a way, I guess, but not a decent one as it doesn't work within the server.
Trickle down does not work if the lower classes expect handouts. There is a solid steady way to make money. It's simply being prepared to do more work than clicking 3 times and then running off to spend your free government handout.
Devils advocate usually implies you take an unpopular stance for the sake of the debate which is not occurring here since you lack A. objective credible argumentation to support a debate and B. this isn't even an unpopular stance. Opinions on the matter are more divided than you want to make out, aside from a few players proclaiming the grandeur to speak for the better part of the whole player base.
I have stated time and time again, bad policies can be repealed if they are shown with credible data to be wrong, but all I see is appeal to emotion here.
But @MonMarty understand. That it takes a LOT to make these people quit. The people who are sticking around mainly for loyalty and past effort. You can make rule changes, new features, remove old features, and pretty much anything else and they will STILL keep logging on once every two weeks.
While you guys are indeed a large council of professional people... I'd say that, a good bit of the staff are so distanced from these issues that it would feel that their opinions on the matter arent so relevant. Not that they arent wanted or appreciated or valued... But its like... sofa manufacturers giving their input on food quality for hotdogs.
I have stated time and time again, bad policies can be repealed if they are shown with credible data to be wrong, but all I see is appeal to emotion here.
and this is why i made the thread in the first place. I find it very reasonable that the staff are willing to repeal things if it tends not to work out.
Trickle down does not work if the lower classes expect handouts. There is a solid steady way to make money. It's simply being prepared to do more work than clicking 3 times and then running off to spend your free government handout.
I honestly believe that if Job Island were released prior to the faction changes then perhaps this thread wouldnt have been made, and fewer people would be upset. But since a lot that is being said is basically, "just wait for job island it will be great"... its hard to visualize the changes beforehand.
But @MonMarty understand. That it takes a LOT to make these people quit. The people who are sticking around mainly for loyalty and past effort. You can make rule changes, new features, remove old features, and pretty much anything else and they will STILL keep logging on once every two weeks.
Do you just pick out the one thing you want to reply to each time instead of the 3 or 7 other things I point out? You're also not really even replying, you just throwing some sentimental emotion up that isn't even supported by actual reason or logic. Am I supposed to suddenly come to the realization that the tax increase was a DRASTIC change for so many people?
If you make this claim I expect you to name each and every staff member you think is too distanced from "these issues" and indicate why they are too distanced from "these issues". You cannot just make such a blanket statement and don't provide continuation.
and this is why i made the thread in the first place. I find it very reasonable that the staff are willing to repeal things if it tends not to work out.
Do you just pick out the one thing you want to reply to each time instead of the 3 or 7 other things I point out? You're also not really even replying, you just throwing some sentimental emotion up that isn't even supported by actual reason or logic. Am I supposed to suddenly come to the realization that the tax increase was a DRASTIC change for so many people?
The rest of that reply didnt involve the things i personally said. This particular piece i felt i could reply to. But since you quoted Shinbun and Mecharic i felt it wasnt my place to reply to those things
Ya know. this really wasnt a great idea. i shouldnt have made this thread without numbers to backup what ive said and its just overall a terrible decision on my part.
@Forum is it possible this thread could be deleted please?
Im really sorry to anybody ive either offended or otherwise with this thread. it was never my intention
Yes? If rich people were poor then they wouldn't be rich people. If everyone had the same amount of everything then nobody would want anything, as everyone would be content with the amount they had. <---that is the basis of every argument against financial gaps. Of course I would be much happier with 2 pieces of food then 1, even if 1 was the optimal level for everyone to have the same amount. Rich people being able to stay rich and being able to profit "51k in 10 hours" allows gaps to happen. Gaps are good.
I can if it counts for the majority of the cases, which it does. The only actual case where is it 100% not is when it only affects poor people (which nothing on Massive currently does) and when it affects poor people and rich people in the same degree (which isn't even that base, because if the relative proportions remain the same, you simple change the base value and there is no actual change in the financial gap.
Money sinks on the server are always a good thing unless they make only poor people pay, which does not occur, ergo all money sinks are good.
You're counter argument is going to be about how taxes affect faction owners more than faction members, but you can't deny that taxes affect everyone.
I very much disagree with some of the money sinks, such as:
Locks- Costs 18regals to make double doors open when you right click them. Let alone the bug where you cant create a portal behind doors so if you need to reset a portal behind locked doors you have to break the doors costing another 18regals. A lot of people create an alt faction for 100(now 500 thank you for that) and put them there items in there as it's less expensive then locking every single chest. Which entail leads to these massive claim restrictions.
market/regalia housing- They're only a money sink if people are willing to pay to have something they could have for free in factions world. Yes people do pay for them, but they're not an reliable way to create a money sink. It's like if you own an apartment complex you aren't always going to have people there to pay rent, let alone if they even decide to pay rent.
Taxes- Direct leakage of money from an economy. I like the increase in taxes, but I still think its just a way to stabilize the insane amount of inflation that need not be there in the first place.
I used to be able to go mining and sell the ingots I mined in trade chat. I used to be able to shear sheep and sell the wool for 2 silver(now 20regals) a stack. I understand the inflationary methods are put in place to help new players and poor players access to join the server smoother and more friendly, but it's gone too far. There are numerous money sinks that need not be there, as inflation is out of hand. These money sinks such as taxes that need to be larger to make up for the insane inflation. Remove John the Pius and do not add ways to inject money in the economy and you won't need leakages(money sinks). Just because an economy is larger doesn't mean it's better. Sure it's a lot easier to live in America then it would be in some part of Africa, but it doesn't mean you need to hyper inflate and then try to deflate once it's out of hand. Stop the madness. I'd actually not be opposed to all injections being taken away and all leakages still being in place.
The economy needs deflated, you've agreed with this by increasing costs of factions and increasing taxes. Please deflate it more. People who complain are just complaining because they're gonna lose money. Well shit, people complain every year when they have to file their taxes. It's not like they're going bankrupt. If you want to deflate the economy more just remove money drops from mobs and John the Pius. See where that takes the economy, maybe people will work more to get their money.
Ya know. this really wasnt a great idea. i shouldnt have made this thread without numbers to backup what ive said and its just overall a terrible decision on my part.
@Forum is it possible this thread could be deleted please?
Im really sorry to anybody ive either offended or otherwise with this thread. it was never my intention
I could be dirt poor and the tax increase still wouldn't affect me because John the Pius gives me 4 times the money I need for my 120 chunk base. I literally don't have to do a thing other than log on every day to pay taxes. In fact, anybody with a base of 500 chunks or less can negate their taxes through him. Meanwhile, 100r a day barely does a thing to support a faction of several thousand chunks. I really don't understand why he isn't removed yet.
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