Archived Removing Mcmmo

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BenRekt

BenRekt

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I believe that McMMO should be removed in its entirety. There are so many reasons why McMMO should be gone in my opinion (as someone who has grinded McMMO myself for countless hours and days). It is by far one of the servers' biggest problems in my eyes, for the following reasons:

- Absolutely deters new players from both PvPing
- Destroys the TPS in two ways: It encourages players to make darkrooms / areas to spawn mobs, creating INSANE TPS drops and the plug-in itself drops the TPS
- Obviously doesn't work well with traits and other plug-ins (Un-fixed damage bugs for ages that arguably made many PvPers go to other servers)
- Is a pain in the ass to grind (once again deters players)
- Widens the gap between PvPers and RPers and creates a seperation between the communities
- Would encourage RPers to PvP more, and make a more equal playing field
- It simply isn't needed when we have the much better traits system

Touching off on that last point - I believe Massive's goal as a server has always been to provide a unique experience, and I believe it accomplishes that at the moment, but it could still easily do that without McMMO. Traits allows for some awesome PvP, but because McMMO and Traits conflict (to my understanding) it creates game-breaking damage bugs that cause 3-hit kills, players to tank for ages and numerous other glitches that I've literally never encountered anywhere else other than Massive. I get that people worked hard on training McMMO, but so did I, and I personally believe the fact that it deters players so much from playing and pvping in the survival worlds that it would easily warrant its removal entirely.

I expect a lot of mixed answers, but hopefully I have clearly explained why I stand where I stand. I of course want everyones' opinions on what I have said here, but please remember I am like you, and want to see the server grow just as much as can be seen by the amount of effort I believe I have put forward to give my input on what changes can improve the server.
 
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BenRekt said:
Like I said - just because you, I and the rest of the PvP community had to grind for hours on end doesn't mean new players should have to go throught the bad system we have now - especially since almot nobody will spend 2-3 days straight grinding on a server where PvP is dying.

Imagine if you could actually bring other people onto the server, and not have to throw them in a darkroom until they had smacked enough mobs for "x" amounts of hours.
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The only McMMO combat skill that people need to even use anymore is Axes. PvP in 1.9 has become more about breaking armor than anything. I agree, Even for a veteran player like myself, going against Traxex or Sevak or Severish would be crazy stupid because of their armor damage abilities. And removing the incentive to grind mobs (Getting you exp to make god gear and regals to purchase it) gives PvPers nothing to do in between the much-anticipated fights that they long for in every waking moment.
 
Madus said:
I would have to consult Cayorion to get the most accurate informaation. But mcMMO in itself does not cause too much of a TPS drop according to the tools I have available.
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But MassiveTraits do create a lot of the Tps lag, and I'd like to see them removed :)
 
Now I'm not entirely sure about this because most of my coding experience is with Java but I believe that a substantial amount of mcMMO that is dedicated towards mod compatibility. @Madus I don't know if this would be possible or if it would have a substantial impact but could you create a separate branch specifically for Massivecraft, that could have alot of the extraneous code removed.
 
pokyug said:
Honestly, the real thing that pissed me off about PvP was MassiveTraits, It allowed for new premiums to PvP on an equal playing field. I completely believe that the longer and harder you train on the server, you deserve to be better in combat. So that being said, I think we should decide to completely remove McMMO and MassiveTraits, and replace them with a new and more in-depth RPG plugin. One that allows players to customize classes and get perks from wearing different armors, while at the same time unlocking slots for Trait buffs.

I don't get why we reward players by allowing them to be on an equal playing field as the veterans when it is so clear that the veterans have worked so much harder. So, my opinion stands that MassiveTraits are shit. I would much rather have them removed than McMMO. Vanilla McMMO allowed for more skill in PvP, not this "Balancing" crap that the staff had made the effort to enforce. McMMO was originally made to be a system where different weapons would counter each other (Bows counter Swords, Unarmed counters Bows, Axes counter Unarmed, and Swords counter Axes). Because of the changes made with McMMO on Massivecraft, Bows, Unarmed, and Swords all lost their appeal. McMMO became more about axes than anything, and people who trained for Unarmed lost their efficient *Disarmed* effect. Bows went from 300% additional damage from skill shot to 200%, and Swords lost their counterstrike ability. Because of those changes McMMO is no longer good, it just made things a little easier for people. (More damage than Vanilla MC)

(I wrote this at 1:30 in the morning, Don't know if this sounds good, or if it is comprehensible at all xD)
In all honesty, Balancing PvP is really easy, all you have to do is run the numbers. I don't see why people fuss about the "Difficulty" of it all xD
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We have discussed a full on mcmmo/trait plugin of our own, problem is that it is estimated at taking 3+ months to code which will mean no other coding can be done during that time.

As for the mcmmo Unarmed we didnt remove *disarmed* we simply made it so you cant pick up their weapon afterwards.
 
Hiddenmonkey10 said:
I think last time the staff tried doing this, the "hardcore" pvpers all threatened to take a mass exodus.

Then again, I could be imagining this... Does anyone else remember this happening?
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Indeed they did, we had mass riots and threats that they would leave as soon as we asked if we should remove McMMO which is why we chose to NOT remove it.
 
65jes89 said:
Removing only pvp skills could work. In fact, (I think, but am not 100% sure), it would be possible to create a plugin that would allow the turning into of the pvp skills people have already grinded into credits which can be transferred to other skills. Still not entirely sure though. Keep in mind that this is coming from someone with a little under 3.5k axes.

I'd also like traits to go, but I can't see that happening anytime soon, regardless of what support is shown for it. However, I would like to bring up the possibility of changing all traits over to micro values again, so that while they give you an edge, they don't make up such a big part of pvp, making it more skill-based in the end.
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The micro values is a possibility we have been looking at and are still figuring out.
 
Night_Raider_ said:
So I guess I'll throw my opinion in fwiw. While I agree tps is terrible at the moment and mcmmo and darkrooms probably contribute some to this, Madus has already said mcmmo itself doesn't contribute much to the lag. As for darkrooms, I don't believe even removing mcmmo would make much of a difference because players will probably still build darkrooms just for the enchanting xp levels. A possible solution to this though could by the opening of more public darkrooms.
Also I'm sure you all know as well as I that there would quite likely be a large amount of people leave the server if something like this was done. With all the recent changes with 1.9 and EULA, there have to be many people left hanging onto this server by a thread. I've seen far more people than I should like leave in the past couple months, and I don't want to see any more. For many of these people, massive has become unrecognizable from what it was even when I joined just 4 months ago. To summarize, if mcmmo was to be removed, it doesn't need to be so close to the major changes resulting from EULA and even 1.9
My opinion though is that there was never a tps problem before 1.9, with mcmmo and traits both. I understand there are other issues that have arisin with them, but I believe that removing mcmmo and/or traits is not the solution. And as for massivetraits, what would happen to Vanos? If flywater were to be removed, they would have nothing left to live for!
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Yes there seems to be big TPS issues with 1.9 but that in itself is not our fault it is in the core server software that we use and we cannot fix it until the coders of the server software fixes it. We are constantly looking for updates on when this will be but have had no luck solving this problem at the moment.
 
pokyug said:
Actually, McMMO really doesn't make that much of a difference in pvp at the moment except for armor damage, nobody uses bows or unarmed anymore or counterstrike from swords.
Is people like you who see the big numbers and get all like OHHMERGERDITSTOOOPMUSTREMOVENOW

I challenge you to go PvP with the plugins we have right now on massive, you'll find that bad trait setups make so much more of the difference in PvP. MassiveTraits are the real issue.
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That is the entire point of MassiveTraits, to make pvp and your traits something you have to think about. Its like chosing a talent in a talent tree. You have to learn what counters what and the best setup for your gameplay, makes or should make pvp alot more versatile. I agree the numbers can probably be better with micro values but as i said this is something we are looking into.
 
pokyug said:
The only McMMO combat skill that people need to even use anymore is Axes. PvP in 1.9 has become more about breaking armor than anything. I agree, Even for a veteran player like myself, going against Traxex or Sevak or Severish would be crazy stupid because of their armor damage abilities. And removing the incentive to grind mobs (Getting you exp to make god gear and regals to purchase it) gives PvPers nothing to do in between the much-anticipated fights that they long for in every waking moment.
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We capped armor damage at 1000 for Axes..... so even if you do meet someone with 12000 axes or someone with 2000 as long as they are over 1000 it doesnt matter anymore, they will not break armor faster so your assumption is wrong.
 
pokyug said:
But MassiveTraits do create a lot of the Tps lag, and I'd like to see them removed :)
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Please do inform me how you apparently "know" that MassiveTraits cause tps lag? Because i have not seen ANY evidence of this and i watch the tps fairly regularly and from our tps monitoring tools (which is quite good) Traits cause less or equal tps lag as McMMO
 
TheFinitePeach said:
Now I'm not entirely sure about this because most of my coding experience is with Java but I believe that a substantial amount of mcMMO that is dedicated towards mod compatibility. @Madus I don't know if this would be possible or if it would have a substantial impact but could you create a separate branch specifically for Massivecraft, that could have alot of the extraneous code removed.
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Not worth it. Even if it could cut mcMMOs CPU usage in half, it would be unnoticeable. In reality most of this code is not used, so if any the overhead is small.
 
Shoyru said:
I think we're more talking about the TPS on the servers rather than the ping of the player; lower ping just helps in registering your actions to the server faster. Ping doesn't help when the TPS is <10 and it takes multiple tries/waiting for a long while before you action registers and shows you that you did that action.

Tab isn't always the best indicator, since there's people I've seen have terrible connection yet have 4 or 5 bars.
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Whoops, mixed up some terms, i apoligize
 
So darkrooms have been brought up quite a bit amongst these posts. Now I think when they say "McMMO is causing lag" what they mean by that is McMMO is the reason for darkrooms (which were also mentioned about creating tps lag amongst the server). If removing McMMO is your idea of decreasing lag (which was proven isn't the main cause of the lag, quoted by Madus) and pissing off a load of people, that's probably not the best way to go through this. And I do not see how "MassiveTraits" create lag, that really is beyond me because it doesn't even make much sense as to why they would.
 
I definitely vote for mcMMO to be removed. It's player deterrence is on a height I've never seen before. Not to mention that it has been the plugin that was most tinkered with since the dawn of the server due to continuous policy chances with the Premium. One point we at it, then no, then we did again, and then came server wide buffs, and it disappeared once more. The old players will know this.

It is simply broken. Players will have a hard time on its leveling due to fishing, repair etc just not being the same as compared to someone who played a year ago where there was no 3x durability to all armor, fishing changes etc.

It is causing just too much harm than good and traits itself is good enough.

Last time I suggested this, I was whooped upside down and it seems the reactions are quite different this time.
 
I can't remember if it's been mentioned already, but have MassiveMobs been mentioned as a potential cause for TPS drop? Not sure if they even are, though.

In terms of McMMO being removed, I feel that removing it would impact the server more negatively compared to keeping it as is, since many people have spent days upon weeks grinding their skills, and removing it would invalidate those hours they spent working on increasing their stats, possibly causing them to leave.
Although as time goes on, people increase their stats while new people continue to join, creating this "top tier" effect where there are people with superior stats that people aren't willing to invest the time to get their stats up to that point, especially if the stats are in the thousands.
Overall, I'm in support of keeping this plugin, but I'm not standing on much of a box to say so.

Perhaps we can try saving the McMMO data and removing the plugin for a trial period of one or two weeks, just to see how things play out? Maybe that may not be long enough to see an effect, but with this it's possible to see how the server gameplay would be if McMMO was just... gone.
 
Celeras said:
I'd much prefer Heroes to MCMMO and traits.
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I personally don't want to see any type of class system with any pvp benefits to non diamond classes. Despite what people think, diamond itself isn't overpowered. Enchants can be, if handled the wrong way, like they were on massive with /fix. But in the end, heroes would be worse for the server than mcmmo and traits. Pvpers are usually willing to grind a decent amount on new servers, however rpg like systems are often an immediate turn-off if plugins like these are advertised as such. Personally, I think all trait/mcmmo abilities which affect combat should be converted to micro values, and get pvp as close to (1.8, not 1.9) vanilla as possible. That is what would attract new pvpers.
 
65jes89 said:
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I'm not sure what you're saying. You don't want classes that make leather/iron armor viable? AFAIK, Heroes doesn't add buffs to armors, it only restricts which armors classes can wear.

Edit: and the classes are custom, so all of that is configurable.
 
Celeras said:
I'm not sure what you're saying. You don't want classes that make leather/iron armor viable? AFAIK, Heroes doesn't add buffs to armors, it only restricts which armors classes can wear.

Edit: and the classes are custom, so all of that is configurable.
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Kinda skimmed over the plugin post and misunderstood it a bit. I re-read it, and still don't like it. The whole idea of limiting the items that each class can use stills turns me off. I think that using this would just amplify the problem that we have with mcmmo. It's essentially the same thing, with more features which pvpers wouldn't like. We don't want to see restricted armor/weapons, in any form. Class systems in general which affect pvp just don't really work out. Pvpers want to see balanced pvp, in which everyone can have a decent chance to fight everyone. It's not a strategy game, like league and other mmorpg's, in which certain classes are generally better suited to fight other certain classes.

Basically, if mcmmo goes, it should stay gone and not be replaced, whether by a 3rd party or by an in-house plugin.
 
65jes89 said:
Kinda skimmed over the plugin post and misunderstood it a bit. I re-read it, and still don't like it. The whole idea of limiting the items that each class can use stills turns me off. I think that using this would just amplify the problem that we have with mcmmo. It's essentially the same thing, with more features which pvpers wouldn't like. We don't want to see restricted armor/weapons, in any form. Class systems in general which affect pvp just don't really work out. Pvpers want to see balanced pvp, in which everyone can have a decent chance to fight everyone. It's not a strategy game, like league and other mmorpg's, in which certain classes are generally better suited to fight other certain classes.

Basically, if mcmmo goes, it should stay gone and not be replaced, whether by a 3rd party or by an in-house plugin.
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Don't mean to offend, but you don't speak for all pvpers.

(in bold) Which MMOs have you played in which this is the case? In WoW any class can pvp against another. Its their level/spells/player skill that determines who wins. Also League of Legends isn't an mmorpg.
 
Celeras said:
Don't mean to offend, but you don't speak for all pvpers.

(in bold) Which MMOs have you played in which this is the case? In WoW any class can pvp against another. Its their level/spells/player skill that determines who wins. Also League of Legends isn't an mmorpg.
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This is correct. But everybody has a weakness. Thats the problem. Mages are weak against long ranged fighters. Long ranged fighters are weak to close ranged fighters. And close range fighters are weak to mages. What peope want is NO WEAKNESSES! Where what determines your win is your own strength and skill not a damage or strength booster due to typings.
 
znake1468 said:
This is correct. But everybody has a weakness. Thats the problem. Mages are weak against long ranged fighters. Long ranged fighters are weak to close ranged fighters. And close range fighters are weak to mages. What peope want is NO WEAKNESSES! Where what determines your win is your own strength and skill not a damage or strength booster due to typings.
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Those weaknesses can be mitigated if you know what you're doing. For example, a paladin can stop a mage/warlock from casting and prevent them from casting that spell for a few seconds. But I see.

I just find classes, spells, and abilities to be far more interesting gameplay than passive traits/mcmmo bonuses.
 
I would have to say PvP is a little dull these days. Axes are the only weapon that are used anymore, besides the occasional sword user. Which takes the total guess factor away when equipping traits. The tps is pretty bad, and god, what is considered loot anymore when you kill someone? There really isn't a huge motivation to PvP at all, besides the little "satisfaction" you get when you kill someone. The only thing we as a community can do in my opinion, is really keep playing the game until issues get fixed. Which like anything else takes time. I myself am disappointed, but I'm staying for the fun people to hang around with, and to work on Civitas. The staff have it under control, and when they need our opinions, they'll create a post asking for them. I don't really see McMMO going anywhere in the near future because of this thread, or ground breaking discoveries on what would "fix" the server, judging by the comments above. Just let them handle it until we're needed. :D
 
I'm pretty late to the party here, but I have a fix to fill the gap between new and old players without needing mcmmo.

Give players with an mcmmo skill total below say 1000, access to a "beginners" map. Here they would be surrounded by similar leveled players and could build up skills before deciding to head to normal maps. This would of course be completely optional for them to enter, and high leveled players would not have access to it.
 
X11 said:
I'm pretty late to the party here, but I have a fix to fill the gap between new and old players without needing mcmmo.

Give players with an mcmmo skill total below say 1000, access to a "beginners" map. Here they would be surrounded by similar leveled players and could build up skills before deciding to head to normal maps. This would of course be completely optional for them to enter, and high leveled players would not have access to it.
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Oh I like it
 
Touching on old responses: as this ventured away from the original topic and there is a more recent response to this thread I will lock and reject this one so that the newer one may be reviewed.
 
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