Archived Money Sinks - A Medium To Keep Perks And The Massive Experience

[Savantly]

This is how it should have been from the beginning, and I have expressed such thoughts occasionally upon the community within MassiveCrafts. Many previous Donator perks should have been money sinks from the beginning, and consequently, because those in power neglected to listen to my thoughts, we have seen ridiculous or rather troubling changes in item pricings. In my time on the server, I have seen prices on diamond blocks go from around 1000 regals to a mere 400. God armor has dropped from its gaping 1500 regal price point to a startling 200 regals. This is because of the neglect of attention to the issues right in front of everyone's face. I don't say this to bash on staff, I say this because issues have been kicked down the road for far too long. Hope is still here. Let me introduce MassiveMoneySinks!!
Money sinks will not only upgrade the MassiveCraft experience after EULA compliance, but will be able to revive Donator perks that non-donators never had gotten to use. Here are Simple changes:

/fix f - Charge 15 regals per usage.

/lore - Charge 20 regals per usage.

/bp - Charge 100 regals for 1 week of use.

/wb - Charge 10 regals for 1 week of use.

/t a slot - (Adds one more trait slot. Max 10.) Charge 150 regals per additional slot.

/book copyright - Charge 20 regals per copyright.

/book copy - Charge 5 regals per copy.

/plot add - Charge 50 regals per additional plot. (Max 4)

These are just examples, adding a charge can be made to anything. Numbers are just for an example, numbers can be replaced with any number desired by staff. Please make it so everyone can have access to premium perks that are being done away with, but it is inappropriate to add things that will be abused (Ex. /fix) without charging a base regal cost. We have seen the effects on the economy, and I ask for it to stop. So in addition to my complaints, I offer a solution. Thanks for your time

People I would like to tag: @Cayorion @Staff @Thortuna @MonMarty @Gethelp @Addrion @Diaphonos @Omnomivore @Lazzulai @Jackson413

Note: I realise that this will not be on the list as highest priorities, but I feel adding some of the perks (with a little regal moderation) back may make players a little less frustrated with changes made to Donator perks and in return may alleviate some of the backfire that staff will face from such compliance changes.
Best of luck to you guys, next couple months may be rough

 

[Zacatero]

My method has nothing to do with duping, make another accusation and I WILL NOT HESITATE TO REPORT YOU. Just making sure you can sure you can read my warning, because obviously you failed to review basic server rules.
Server rules you have broken in your conversation on this thread, include but are not limited to:

• Do not complain or otherwise accuse others in public chat channels.
• Never accuse another player of cheating publicly.
• Do not misuse chat channels for something else than their purpose.
• Keep calm and prevent situations from deteriorating and be kind.
• In general, respect each other and do not run around ruining the atmosphere for others just so you can have fun.
• Staff bans, mutes, kicks, jails or any other form of punishment may not be publicly discussed. If you have a question about your or someone else's punishment, contact the staff on the forum or in game with a ticket. This also covers discussing banned players.

I would kindly remind you to read Massivecraft's Rules before speaking again.
- Click HERE for Server rules -​

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Quite possibly the most hypocritical post I've ever seen

 

[Jackmo_Jones]

My method has nothing to do with duping, make another accusation and I WILL NOT HESITATE TO REPORT YOU. Just making sure you can sure you can read my warning, because obviously you failed to review basic server rules.
Server rules you have broken in your conversation on this thread, include but are not limited to:

• Do not complain or otherwise accuse others in public chat channels.
• Never accuse another player of cheating publicly.
• Do not misuse chat channels for something else than their purpose.
• Keep calm and prevent situations from deteriorating and be kind.
• In general, respect each other and do not run around ruining the atmosphere for others just so you can have fun.
• Staff bans, mutes, kicks, jails or any other form of punishment may not be publicly discussed. If you have a question about your or someone else's punishment, contact the staff on the forum or in game with a ticket. This also covers discussing banned players.

I would kindly remind you to read Massivecraft's Rules before speaking again.
- Click HERE for Server rules -​

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Go ahead and report me. It's OK I'll sit here and wait while you do.

 

[Zacatero]

Please tell me your tiny mind understands why we would accuse you in the first place

You've been an ass toward us in this entire thread, and then get pissy when we speak our minds too. Also your /seen is very questionable with this entire thread you must understand the connection with accused duping and a magic enchanting process where you get that many items.

And don't threaten us. Go ahead. Report me.

 

[Alj23]

Pepps, love your take on all of this, although I'm still worried. Sure there was a time before Premiums were showered with Regals... but back then there was also no cost per chunk being charged daily to factions.

I'm no economics wunderkind so I'll pose the following to the thread: Will faction land charges eventually suck all of the money out of the economy? There's no longer a steady injection of Premium Dollars to balance it out. Sure... money is being injected in from voting but it's a pittance compared to the previous influx from premium. I'm worried that the amount of Regals being 'sucked' out of the economy by land charges is going to outstrip by far the meager amount coming into the economy from voting. Will all of the Regals eventually just disappear leaving no money for factions to afford land, thereby ending the server?

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September 2015 saw us at a trough in terms of money added to the active economy. I say active because this black trend line only shows us active money, which is characterized by someone who has logged in within the past 30 days and has money. So the money this line represents is active money.

In four months the active amount of money added to the economy increased by almost two million. January 2016 saw us at a peak for money being added. We are now in decline. I forcast that we will continue in decline into an even deeper trough than before, by roughly three to five million regals before we begin to climb again. I'm making these predictions based off the following:

• Lack of premium 750 regal money.
• Change from LWC to MassiveLock (People having to repurchase locks)
• Inactivity of accounts due to lack of interest in playing caused by server changes (as they go inactive so does their money)
• Introduction of regal cost to /fix. (This alone has cost roughly 100K according to the graphs)

So, for the people that feel money sinks are a good thing for the economy (@pokyug ), they will be happy. For someone like myself that feels a healthy balance of money sink and money creation is needed, and that large sums of money should be constantly flowing both ways, depending on how this graph continues to trend, we may need additional forms of money creation to balance. I'd personally say it's too early to tell, and will be watching this graph closely over the next money to see how much money is moving in and out.

To answer your question; I don't think we'll see faction taxes taking too hard a burden on the overall money in the economy. A quick calculation showed that today alone, 9,125 regals were taken out of the economy for taxes. If we use that as a baseline for every coming month, it would take right under five years for faction taxes alone to drain all the active money out of the economy. Of course this doesn't account for other sources of money sink, and money creation. It's just a little perspective.

 

[FireFan96]

But seriously, I don't even see anything remotely related to the original post anymore. Just everyone arguing about absolutely nothing.

So, in an attempt to get this derailed train up the cliff it has fallen off of, I'll thrown down my opinion on the original topic once again:
I do not think money sinks are very viable. Yes, they have the potential to get rid of a lot of Regals. But when the average player has 2000r (Not 100%, but for the sake of my response, assume please), it's not a great thing when every little perk you have comes at a price. Now I personally donated just to donate, but for the ones who "bought a rank," they could get really irked to see a cost come with their "purchase."

So I don't see money sinks being very practical, on the basis that the ones who don't need to lose Regals will be the ones who will be affected the most by it.

Ok, so let's see if this can get back on track now...

 

[Zacatero]

It won't. @pokyug doesn't want a discussion, because he will just insult anyone who disagrees with him.

 

[Eucindiel]

Apologies @FireFan96 I'm just trying to look at the other factors that contribute to this discussion. If the amount of active Regals in the economy is already going to shrink due to all of the existing exit points (land charges, /fix, locking) then adding other "money sinks" is crazy? I can't say for sure because I'm an economics novice - but I'd love to hear opinions from those wiser than I.

As I've said, I'm not expert, so I'm keen to see how @Alj23 s charts go... because we're all sort of assuming every player is going to vote every day. I imagine from what I've experienced that most don't bother.

 

[Savantly]

Pepps, love your take on all of this, although I'm still worried. Sure there was a time before Premiums were showered with Regals... but back then there was also no cost per chunk being charged daily to factions.

I'm no economics wunderkind so I'll pose the following to the thread: Will faction land charges eventually suck all of the money out of the economy? There's no longer a steady injection of Premium Dollars to balance it out. Sure... money is being injected in from voting but it's a pittance compared to the previous influx from premium. I'm worried that the amount of Regals being 'sucked' out of the economy by land charges is going to outstrip by far the meager amount coming into the economy from voting. Will all of the Regals eventually just disappear leaving no money for factions to afford land, thereby ending the server?

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It's a good thought, but if you have a faction of.. lets say 20 members, that's a max of 600 chunks that you can claim. Meaning 60 regals a day. At best only 5 of those 20 members will be active, however, the base amount of regals attained from voting within a given day is 27
(9 votes * 3 regals per vote), that's 137 regals a day (Not including people darkrooming or selling off materials). People who have more innactive factions like yourself and alj23 do run a high risk for having big factions disbanding because of the lack of premium regals being injected onto the server.

 

[Savantly]

It won't. @pokyug doesn't want a discussion, because he will just insult anyone who disagrees with him.

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None of you guys are trying to discuss anything related to the topic. All you've been doing ever since you have gotten on this thread is attacking @Sarge_Peppers for ad hominem, and trying disprove all my replies based off of my /seen. Please keep everything conversational, and be open minded. The reason why I'm not breaking down my method for how to enchant, is because telling people how to do it, goes against my core beliefs in the economic system. If I tell you, you will tell your friends, you will abuse it and you won't get banned from it because it IS legal. If I tell you how to enchant my way, you'll be on your way to become /money top and why would I hand out free information like that?
Especially when it benefits me in no way, further ruins the prices on all Enchants at the servers expense, and lets you make more money. It just wouldn't make any sense.

 

[Jackmo_Jones]

If your method is so OP then why do you have less money than me in game even after playing over a year more than me?

 

[Sarge_Peppers]

None of you guys are trying to discuss anything related to the topic. All you've been doing ever since you have gotten on this thread is attacking @Sarge_Peppers for ad hominem, and trying disprove all my replies based off of my /seen. Please keep everything conversational, and be open minded. The reason why I'm not breaking down my method for how to enchant, is because telling people how to do it, goes against my core beliefs in the economic system. If I tell you, you will tell your friends, you will abuse it and you won't get banned from it because it IS legal. If I tell you how to enchant my way, you'll be on your way to become /money top and why would I hand out free information like that?
Especially when it benefits me in no way, further ruins the prices on all Enchants at the servers expense, and lets you make more money. It just wouldn't make any sense.

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Technology is essential in the expansion of the economy. That being said you have all rights to preserve your enchanting technology, so long as it is not fraudulent. Preservation of intellectual property is very important that being said you should not assume sharing the method with the staff will preserve it. The staff is the equivalent of government which is just a collection of people following their own self interests with a false authority.

Also in regards to @Alj23 in order to balance money sinks and money creation we must ensure some form of monetary circulation is in place. Where money is not created, but rather circulated from money sinks.

 

[Savantly]

Technology is essential in the expansion of the economy. That being said you have all rights to preserve your enchanting technology, so long as it is not fraudulent. Preservation of intellectual property is very important that being said you should not assume sharing the method with the staff will preserve it. The staff is the equivalent of government which is just a collection of people following their own self interests with a false authority.

Also in regards to @Alj23 in order to balance money sinks and money creation we must ensure some form of monetary circulation is in place. Where money is not created, but rather circulated from money sinks.

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I agree with Sarge, but my complete belief is far more aggressive. If a player was to use an entire day to Darkroom and to Vote, the numbers would be cringeworthy. Here is why:
Darkrooming: 23 1/2 hours - 2525 (Based off a 150 regal an hour average)
Voting - 90 (10 regals a vote) ~Click HERE if you're skeptical~
Total - 2615 regals a day (79,496 a month)

That's The Maximum that a player will be able to do any given day. Honestly, no player will stay up day and night without any sleep for an entire month to earn 80k-ish. Say the average player was online for 5 hours a day, half that was spent darkrooming/voting.
Darkrooming: 2 hours - 300 (Based off a 150 regal an hour average)
Voting - 90 (10 regals a vote) ~Click HERE if you're skeptical still...~
Total - 390 regals a day (11,856 a month)

That is if you invest about 2 1/2 hours a day to voting and darkrooming, not including inconsistent hours, and other incomes that you may have (Ex. Real estate, Selling materials, selling lore items, selling enchants, etc.)
That still ridiculous, even if you have to buy a new set of armor every day, which would be about 6000 (200 regals a set) regals a month for that darkrooming. Leaving you with a still very impressive 5,000 to spend. That's not including the value of all the EXP you would have gotten at this point or enchanting your own armor. That how much you could earn darkrooming 2 hours and voting every day of the week for a whole month. STILL CRAZY STUPID.

 

[Savantly]

View attachment 77891 View attachment 77892
September 2015 saw us at a trough in terms of money added to the active economy. I say active because this black trend line only shows us active money, which is characterized by someone who has logged in within the past 30 days and has money. So the money this line represents is active money.

In four months the active amount of money added to the economy increased by almost two million. January 2016 saw us at a peak for money being added. We are now in decline. I forcast that we will continue in decline into an even deeper trough than before, by roughly three to five million regals before we begin to climb again. I'm making these predictions based off the following:

• Lack of premium 750 regal money.
• Change from LWC to MassiveLock (People having to repurchase locks)
• Inactivity of accounts due to lack of interest in playing caused by server changes (as they go inactive so does their money)
• Introduction of regal cost to /fix. (This alone has cost roughly 100K according to the graphs)

So, for the people that feel money sinks are a good thing for the economy (@pokyug ), they will be happy. For someone like myself that feels a healthy balance of money sink and money creation is needed, and that large sums of money should be constantly flowing both ways, depending on how this graph continues to trend, we may need additional forms of money creation to balance. I'd personally say it's too early to tell, and will be watching this graph closely over the next money to see how much money is moving in and out.

To answer your question; I don't think we'll see faction taxes taking too hard a burden on the overall money in the economy. A quick calculation showed that today alone, 9,125 regals were taken out of the economy for taxes. If we use that as a baseline for every coming month, it would take right under five years for faction taxes alone to drain all the active money out of the economy. Of course this doesn't account for other sources of money sink, and money creation. It's just a little perspective.

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Holy crap, they took my idea for adding a cost to /fix??!!! YUSSSS
And yeah I do see your point for the time being, I had originally designed the thread to go against the incomes from buying premium (Which I did not realise they had removed at the time). However, they did raise the reward per vote to 10 regals (3.33 times the original rate). I feel happy with what we have at the moment, but I would not be against introducing more money sinks. I appreciate this reply ^_^

 

[Savantly]

If your method is so OP then why do you have less money than me in game even after playing over a year more than me?

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Because first off, don't sell my enchants. I have quit the server 3 times, each time giving away all my possessions and regals as donations to friends. I buy an obsessive amount of lore items, and random other crap I don't need/too lazy to get (from my storage). And I have played on average less than 7 hours a week. Not to mention losing my storage 3 weeks ago to an innocent mistake.

 

[FireFan96]

I'm not sure how to comment on the amount of Regals players make a day for 2 hours.

For starter, I don't think a good portion of players actually vote for the server. While I do not have any actual proof of this, I'll attempt to reference myself. On some sites, you can see top voters. I'm near the bottom. But I'm not at 25 votes for that site, in fact, I'm probably around 18-ish. Needless to say, there's few people who are above me on the list. Now I do believe that the shift between the weekend and weekday can screw up the vote routine (personally it happens to me on a daily basis)

To sum up that, I don't think we can say that every person gets the maximum Regals from voting. I think it's safe to assume players only get rewards from 15 days worth of votes. I'd call this an overestimate, but I think the number is a decent approximation.

Onto darkrooming. Obviously, these last few weeks have been pretty bad tps wise. So darkroomig isn't very viable as an income generator.

The last thing I want to add is I don't believe the average player even bothers to darkroom. I'd guess a good 2/3 of RolePlayers probably don't darkroom at all. This requires armor, which requires diamonds. If you have zero Regals, this requires going into the survival world and mining for them. Based on a lot of threads, RolePlayers are not keen on going into survival to get resources.

I'm basing my darkroom assessments on the fact that when I'm darkrooming, I don't see any more than 2 other people, and even that is rare.

So in sum, I don't think the 11,856r/mo is a very large overestimate, at least on the RolePlay side of things.

 

[Alj23]

Holy crap, they took my idea for adding a cost to /fix??!!! YUSSSS
And yeah I do see your point for the time being, I had originally designed the thread to go against the incomes from buying premium (Which I did not realise they had removed at the time). However, they did raise the reward per vote to 10 regals (3.33 times the original rate). I feel happy with what we have at the moment, but I would not be against introducing more money sinks. I appreciate this reply ^_^

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They didn't take your idea for adding a cost to /fix. It was applied whenever they updated to address EULA compliance.

A comment MonMarty made earlier today gave me a different view on how money sinks and money creation should be addressed. In active circulation, we have a little over 15,000,000 regals. This is more than enough currency to facilitate transactions for years to come. What needs to occurr now is a balance of money sinks and money creation. For every feature that exist that creates money on the server, a corresponding money sink must exist.

Now what type of money sink you say? Logical and reasonable sinks. /fix is a reasonable sink. Making someone pay for access to /bp & /wb on a weekly basis is tiedous and not reasonable.

Along with reasonable modes of money creation and money sinks, we also need to promote economic policy that moves money from entity to entity at a stable rate, and promotes business. The staff do not currently protect player ventures except against the server enforced rule against scamming. If the staff instituted rules and provided the foundations to run legit player owned businesses where they wouldn't have to worry about being scammed by customers, I'm sure we would see a burst in business and money moving.

 

[Savantly]

They didn't take your idea for adding a cost to /fix. It was applied whenever they updated to address EULA compliance

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I have been implying that there should be a cost associated with /fix ever since it had came out, when the staff picked up on it, that I do not know. However, I did think of the idea at a very long time ago, and I am glad that it has been implemented.

Now what type of money sink you say? Logical and reasonable sinks. /fix is a reasonable sink. Making someone pay for access to /bp & /wb on a weekly basis is tiedous and not reasonable.

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Upon further thought, I kinda agree. Paying weekly for /bp and /wb would be irritating, and there should be a base fee to access the feature. I just thought since there is a huge capability for regals to be injected into the server economy at ridiculous rates, that it would only make sense to make it a weekly or monthly thing. Yeah, I do see your point

 

[Savantly]

For starter, I don't think a good portion of players actually vote for the server. While I do not have any actual proof of this, I'll attempt to reference myself. On some sites, you can see top voters. I'm near the bottom. But I'm not at 25 votes for that site, in fact, I'm probably around 18-ish. Needless to say, there's few people who are above me on the list. Now I do believe that the shift between the weekend and weekday can screw up the vote routine (personally it happens to me on a daily basis)

To sum up that, I don't think we can say that every person gets the maximum Regals from voting. I think it's safe to assume players only get rewards from 15 days worth of votes. I'd call this an overestimate, but I think the number is a decent approximation.

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This is true, not nearly that many players vote on the server, the capability is out there though. In terms of days about 1,400 different players will log onto the server in a given day, and only approximately 2,000 votes are made daily that means only 16% of players fully vote.

To address "assuming" that players get about 15 days worth of votes in a month currently means that, that player will earn 1350 regals. Enough to buy 500 regals in lore items, pay for a shop, and a regalian property. It would be nice if roleplayers had to work just a little harder to make ends meet with their expenses.

The last thing I want to add is I don't believe the average player even bothers to darkroom. I'd guess a good 2/3 of RolePlayers probably don't darkroom at all. This requires armor, which requires diamonds. If you have zero Regals, this requires going into the survival world and mining for them. Based on a lot of threads, RolePlayers are not keen on going into survival to get resources.

I'm basing my darkroom assessments on the fact that when I'm darkrooming, I don't see any more than 2 other people, and even that is rare.

So in sum, I don't think the 11,856r/mo is a very large overestimate, at least on the RolePlay side of things.

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The point was to show how easy it is for the active player to make regals, and making that much is available to anyone wants to TRY, while still leaving plenty of breathing room for any activities that players would be interested in doing with the rest of their day.

 

[Zacatero]

The staff do not currently protect player ventures except against the server enforced rule against scamming. If the staff instituted rules and provided the foundations to run legit player owned businesses where they wouldn't have to worry about being scammed by customers, I'm sure we would see a burst in business and money moving.

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hey @Alj23 can you turn this into a seperate idea thread? i really like this.

 

[Alj23]

hey @Alj23 can you turn this into a seperate idea thread? i really like this.

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I'll look into once I get home on Sunday from vacation. I only have my phone at the moment so writing long threads sucks on mobile.

 

[Alj23]

Upon further thought, I kinda agree. Paying weekly for /bp and /wb would be irritating, and there should be a base fee to access the feature. I just thought since there is a huge capability for regals to be injected into the server economy at ridiculous rates, that it would only make sense to make it a weekly or monthly thing. Yeah, I do see your point

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As mentioned earlier, there's a good chance that the active money in the economy is actually going to decrease over the course of the next few months unless the staff implement some major change.

 

[Savantly]

As mentioned earlier, there's a good chance that the active money in the economy is actually going to decrease over the course of the next few months unless the staff implement some major change.

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I know lol, I was not disagreeing with you

 

[Savantly]

hey @Alj23 can you turn this into a seperate idea thread? i really like this.

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Along with reasonable modes of money creation and money sinks, we also need to promote economic policy that moves money from entity to entity at a stable rate, and promotes business. The staff do not currently protect player ventures except against the server enforced rule against scamming. If the staff instituted rules and provided the foundations to run legit player owned businesses where they wouldn't have to worry about being scammed by customers, I'm sure we would see a burst in business and money moving.

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I agree, supporting player created businesses would help out the server alot. I'm unsure as to what measures would be needed to improve said player businesses, I would be glad to learn a thing to two, I may even end up supporting your thread

 

[Zacatero]

I agree, supporting player created businesses would help out the server alot. I'm unsure as to what measures would be needed to improve said player businesses, I would be glad to learn a thing to two, I may even end up supporting your thread

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Ya same for me. I dont know how would be the best way for this to happen but i would love the discussion.

 

[Omnomivore]

Thank you for your suggestions and opening discourse for future idea suggestions.

Currently the /fix rate is .5 regals per 1% of fix power used. This was reduced from 1 regal due to the money drain we saw.

The following features will definitely not be charged for use:

/lore - Charge 20 regals per usage. (premium perk)
/bp - Charge 100 regals for 1 week of use.
/wb - Charge 10 regals for 1 week of use.
/t a slot - (Adds one more trait slot. Max 10.) Charge 150 regals per additional slot. (Everyone has 10 slots)
/book copyright - Charge 20 regals per copyright.
/book copy - Charge 5 regals per copy.

Staff are aware that charges can be applied to various things. At this moment we are trying to find an equilibrium between regal loss and regal gain. It may take a while for everything to adjust with all the changes that have occurred recently, but we are watching the market and money situation to evaluate if we need to make more changes, where, and what to modify.

I will close this thread as the premise is rejected, albeit kept in mind that we can charge for other features if additional money sinks are needed.