Archived Money Sinks - A Medium To Keep Perks And The Massive Experience

[Savantly]

This is how it should have been from the beginning, and I have expressed such thoughts occasionally upon the community within MassiveCrafts. Many previous Donator perks should have been money sinks from the beginning, and consequently, because those in power neglected to listen to my thoughts, we have seen ridiculous or rather troubling changes in item pricings. In my time on the server, I have seen prices on diamond blocks go from around 1000 regals to a mere 400. God armor has dropped from its gaping 1500 regal price point to a startling 200 regals. This is because of the neglect of attention to the issues right in front of everyone's face. I don't say this to bash on staff, I say this because issues have been kicked down the road for far too long. Hope is still here. Let me introduce MassiveMoneySinks!!
Money sinks will not only upgrade the MassiveCraft experience after EULA compliance, but will be able to revive Donator perks that non-donators never had gotten to use. Here are Simple changes:

/fix f - Charge 15 regals per usage.

/lore - Charge 20 regals per usage.

/bp - Charge 100 regals for 1 week of use.

/wb - Charge 10 regals for 1 week of use.

/t a slot - (Adds one more trait slot. Max 10.) Charge 150 regals per additional slot.

/book copyright - Charge 20 regals per copyright.

/book copy - Charge 5 regals per copy.

/plot add - Charge 50 regals per additional plot. (Max 4)

These are just examples, adding a charge can be made to anything. Numbers are just for an example, numbers can be replaced with any number desired by staff. Please make it so everyone can have access to premium perks that are being done away with, but it is inappropriate to add things that will be abused (Ex. /fix) without charging a base regal cost. We have seen the effects on the economy, and I ask for it to stop. So in addition to my complaints, I offer a solution. Thanks for your time

People I would like to tag: @Cayorion @Staff @Thortuna @MonMarty @Gethelp @Addrion @Diaphonos @Omnomivore @Lazzulai @Jackson413

Note: I realise that this will not be on the list as highest priorities, but I feel adding some of the perks (with a little regal moderation) back may make players a little less frustrated with changes made to Donator perks and in return may alleviate some of the backfire that staff will face from such compliance changes.
Best of luck to you guys, next couple months may be rough

 

[65jes89]

I like everything except for the damage reduction. There shouldn't be something that gives you that big of an edge in pvp that costs regals.

 

[Savantly]

I like everything except for the damage reduction. There shouldn't be something that gives you that big of an edge in pvp that costs regals.

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Honestly I don't like that idea either, I put in in the thread merely as an example. Thanks for the input, please refer other players to this thread if you wish to see these (or some) changes made.

 

[FireFan96]

Great, Idea, If you have 100,000r.

I have a whopping 4000r to my name. With this money, I have to spend it on two houses totaling 1300r/month, a faction that costs 5r/day, and any other expenses I have. Of any income I receive, I can expect about 600-ish Regals from votes alone, and then whatever darkrooming pays.

Needless to say, I don't have the resources to keep a positive growth of my balance. I can only go down. Sure, you could say "spend more time dark rooming." To that I say this, invent a way to add more hours to the day, and I'll darkroom for that extra time. Until then, I have more important things to do, like university work. I play Massive as a leisure activity, and don't mind the occasional grind. But If I had to grind just to make ends meet, I'd leave now and save me the trouble already.

Not to mention that this would suck for any new players, who have a whopping 0, and maybe 200 if they do the tutorial. But that cash drops after the first week, then they're screwed.

I know that there's a lot of money in the economy, and reducing that amount would be nice. But a lot people can't afford to have money sinks, since they don't have 100,000r just lying around. So for this reason, I don't think this idea is very practical. All it would reduce is the player count, and maybe some Regals because of it.

 

[DrFong]

If you feel you have too much money and require an additional cash sink, please wrap up your Regals careful and ship them to /money pay drfong

I will take very good care of them.

 

[Savantly]

I

Great, Idea, If you have 100,000r.

I have a whopping 4000r to my name. With this money, I have to spend it on two houses totaling 1300r/month, a faction that costs 5r/day, and any other expenses I have. Of any income I receive, I can expect about 600-ish Regals from votes alone, and then whatever darkrooming pays.

Needless to say, I don't have the resources to keep a positive growth of my balance. I can only go down. Sure, you could say "spend more time dark rooming." To that I say this, invent a way to add more hours to the day, and I'll darkroom for that extra time. Until then, I have more important things to do, like university work. I play Massive as a leisure activity, and don't mind the occasional grind. But If I had to grind just to make ends meet, I'd leave now and save me the trouble already.

Not to mention that this would suck for any new players, who have a whopping 0, and maybe 200 if they do the tutorial. But that cash drops after the first week, then they're screwed.

I know that there's a lot of money in the economy, and reducing that amount would be nice. But a lot people can't afford to have money sinks, since they don't have 100,000r just lying around. So for this reason, I don't think this idea is very practical. All it would reduce is the player count, and maybe some Regals because of it.

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I understand completely, however most people do not have 1300r/month to pay on regalia housing. You get 100-200 regals an hour Darkrooming, and 27 regals voting (with an additional 30+regals woths of lore items). Most people don't have ANY money going into money sinks, and if they do it is for a 200 chunk faction that costs 20 regals a day or 10 regals in tax. It would suck for you, but it is legitimate to ask to donate regals back to the server for perks. I may also add that they are doing away with some of these perks due to EULA compliance changes. I would much rather have them with a regal price tag, than not having access to these perks at all.

 

[Alj23]

I understand you want to see money sunk out of the economy, and prices go up, but I don't think this is the right way to do it.

If you add things into the server to sink money, but don't compensate with ways to earn money, then you create self hurting cycle that drives prices even lower as people lose money to buy things, and prices have to fall to meet the average money a player has.

I don't think a money sink is needed right now. Matter of fact; if you sink more money out of the average player, they will have less to spend on goods, and as there is less money, prices must drop to match the new amount. What you propose would have very negative effects on the server's economy overall.

Fun fact: 49% of all money on the server sits on inactive accounts. That's just a little over 15 million regals. Sinking money out of the server will only hurt the active players, while virtually half of the money on the server won't be affected.

 

[Savantly]

I understand you want to see money sunk out of the economy, and prices go up, but I don't think this is the right way to do it.

If you add things into the server to sink money, but don't compensate with ways to earn money, then you create self hurting cycle that drives prices even lower as people lose money to buy things, and prices have to fall to meet the average money a player has.

I don't think a money sink is needed right now. Matter of fact; if you sink more money out of the average player, they will have less to spend on goods, and as there is less money, prices must drop to match the new amount. What you propose would have very negative effects on the server's economy overall.

Fun fact: 49% of all money on the server sits on inactive accounts. That's just a little over 15 million regals. Sinking money out of the server will only hurt the active players, while virtually half of the money on the server won't be affected.

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There is no factual evidence supporting anything you just said. However If you actually look at how the server economy has worked within the last 3 years, then you'd know that exact opposite is true. As the server gets older, Mojang and Massivecraft alike allow for staple items within the server economy, to grow increasingly easy to reproduce. You'll see that 3 years ago the average person had around 1000 regals (100 silver at the time), and God Armor was around 1.2k regals a set. Now the average active premium player has around 3-4k regals, and the price of God armor is 200 regals. Money Sinks are not the Complete Solution, but its a start.

 

[krios41]

There is no factual evidence supporting anything you just said.

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The way of logic should be enough evidence for what Alj23 said
but where is your evidence that money sinks wil increase prices?

 

[Alj23]

There is no factual evidence supporting anything you just said. However If you actually look at how the server economy has worked within the last 3 years, then you'd know that exact opposite is true. As the server gets older, Mojang and Massivecraft alike allow for staple items within the server economy, to grow increasingly easy to reproduce. You'll see that 3 years ago the average person had around 1000 regals (100 silver at the time), and God Armor was around 1.2k regals a set. Now the average active premium player has around 3-4k regals, and the price of God armor is 200 regals. Money Sinks are not the Complete Solution, but its a start.

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What I said was basic common sense, but to make it easier for everyone, I'll break it down..



As of right now, the average active player has 2,611 regals.

So if we add all your ideas, not even counting whether or not these players own a faction, pay taxes, own a market shop, own Regalian property, or have to pay a surrender tribute, you expect them to still be able to pay the same amount of money for goods, or even more?

Simple logic dictates that if a player doesn't have more money to spend, prices can't grow.

The supply of armor grew and the prices decreased because while supply increased, demand did not. Had the economy followed the logic of supply and demand that holds true in real life, people would have stopped producing at such an increased rate. But it didn't. And that's to blame.

The screenshot above backs up everything I said.

 

[Sarge_Peppers]

Lets talk about Fiat currency:

Fiat Currency is a currency that has no physical value. All value of the currency is intrinsic. Unlike a currency that is based on a commodity like Gold standard which was common in real life up until 50 years ago. A fiat currency is really just a medium for transactions, and since it is only a medium for transaction it is value is set by pretty much every transaction.

Now that we established what a Fiat Currency is let me explain to you why this statement

top the impending upward spiral of inflation.

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is wrong.

Inflation of a fiat currency is does not cause lower prices it causes higher prices. More fiat currency in the market means that people who have supplies are able to charge more for those supplies because people have more of the medium they use for the transaction to receive the supplies.

You are misdiagnosing the cause for Diamonds and God Armor losing value. Pretty much every commodity on the server has dropped in price. This is not because of fiat currency. This is because of large growth in the technology sector of the economy. Back when god armor was 1k it took exponentially longer to make god armor, and before fishing the only thing that devalued diamonds were Dupers and Xrayers.

This really just seems like a "I can't get rich using old methods" post. As technology improves, and the market evolves one cannot expect to be able to make it big in the industries of old. You need to innovate. You need to study the market trends, and find a market that isn't saturated instead of ranting about "inflation" that doesn't even exist.

 

[Savantly]

What I said was basic common sense, but to make it easier for everyone, I'll break it down..

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Please don't use the phrase "Common Sense" over 99% of the world uses Fossil fuels that release harmful green house gasses. Yet as a race we blatantly ignore the harmful effects of using fuels to power, cars, planes, and trains. Studies have show that those same green house gasses are released into the atmosphere, and consequently the ozone layer opens up holes within itself to remove these toxins. Thus increasing the risk for getting skin cancer. "Common Sense" is not a thing, that point is moot.

As of right now, the average active player has 2,611 regals.

So if we add all your ideas, not even counting whether or not these players own a faction, pay taxes, own a market shop, own Regalian property, or have to pay a surrender tribute, you expect them to still be able to pay the same amount of money for goods, or even more?

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Owning a faction and paying taxes are basically the same cost, and nobody pays tax or tribute for the most part. That point is nearly non-existent xD
Let us add up the costs by monthly payment (Assuming they have all those expenses):
Current Money Sinks
Taxes - 150 (5 regals a day)
Market shop - 300
Regalian property - 300

MassiveMoneySinks
/fix f - 375 regals (25*15 regals per usage)
/lore - 100 regals (5 time use, 20 regals each time)
/bp - 400 (4*100 regals for 1 week of use.)
/wb - 40 (4*10 regals for 1 week of use.)

Total Expenses: 1665 Regals
We are assuming at this point, that they are an active player.

Voting (Assuming they vote 5 times a week on each website, or 198 total votes a month)
Income per vote - 594 regals (voting at all 9 sites, 5 times a week)
*Uncommon* Lore item value - 840 regals (Avg. item value 30 regals * 28 uncommon lore items)
*Rare* Lore item value - 800 regals (Avg. item value 400 regals * 2 rare lore items)
Lottery - 120 regals (Avg. 15 regals a lottery* 8 lottery drawings)

Darkrooming - 2200 regals (1 hour each day for 5 days a week, 22 hours a month)

Total Income: 4554 regals
Total profit: 2889 regals
My answer is yes, It is completely legitimate to ask an Active player to pay these expenses. Even with these expenses, the average player will still have more than plenty of regals left over to buy as they please. Including the onetime payment of 200 regals for plots, 750 for trait slots, in a given month an active player still ahs over 1k regals to mess around with.
Next time you wish to reply to one of my threads, run some basic numbers

 

[Savantly]

Lets talk about Fiat currency:

Fiat Currency is a currency that has no physical value. All value of the currency is intrinsic. Unlike a currency that is based on a commodity like Gold standard which was common in real life up until 50 years ago. A fiat currency is really just a medium for transactions, and since it is only a medium for transaction it is value is set by pretty much every transaction.

Now that we established what a Fiat Currency is let me explain to you why this statement is wrong.

Inflation of a fiat currency is does not cause lower prices it causes higher prices. More fiat currency in the market means that people who have supplies are able to charge more for those supplies because people have more of the medium they use for the transaction to receive the supplies.

You are misdiagnosing the cause for Diamonds and God Armor losing value. Pretty much every commodity on the server has dropped in price. This is not because of fiat currency. This is because of large growth in the technology sector of the economy. Back when god armor was 1k it took exponentially longer to make god armor, and before fishing the only thing that devalued diamonds were Dupers and Xrayers.

This really just seems like a "I can't get rich using old methods" post. As technology improves, and the market evolves one cannot expect to be able to make it big in the industries of old. You need to innovate. You need to study the market trends, and find a market that isn't saturated instead of ranting about "inflation" that doesn't even exist.

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Thank you, this is a nice insight that I seemed to overlook

 

[Alj23]

Please don't use the phrase "Common Sense" over 99% of the world uses Fossil fuels that release harmful green house gasses. Yet as a race we blatantly ignore the harmful effects of using fuels to power, cars, planes, and trains. Studies have show that those same green house gasses are released into the atmosphere, and consequently the ozone layer opens up holes within itself to remove these toxins. Thus increasing the risk for getting skin cancer. "Common Sense" is not a thing, that point is moot.

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You literally just said common sense isn't a thing.

This guy just said common sense isn't a thing.

I won't even argue this point because I think I'd hit a brick wall in your logic somewhere, and then it would just be bashing the wall.

Owning a faction and paying taxes are basically the same cost, and nobody pays tax or tribute for the most part. That point is nearly non-existent xD

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Owning a faction and paying taxes are not the same thing. I could own a faction and pay zero taxes myself, and do it off the backs of my members. I personally own two factions and pay over 80 regals per day in taxes. I probably pay more in taxes alone in a day than the average player pays in a month.

Let us add up the costs by monthly payment (Assuming they have all those expenses):
Current Money Sinks
Taxes - 150 (5 regals a day)
Market shop - 300
Regalian property - 300

MassiveMoneySinks
/fix f - 375 regals (25*15 regals per usage)
/lore - 100 regals (5 time use, 20 regals each time)
/bp - 400 (4*100 regals for 1 week of use.)
/wb - 40 (4*10 regals for 1 week of use.)

Total Expenses: 1665 Regals
We are assuming at this point, that they are an active player.

Voting (Assuming they vote 5 times a week on each website, or 198 total votes a month)
Income per vote - 594 regals (voting at all 9 sites, 5 times a week)
*Uncommon* Lore item value - 840 regals (Avg. item value 30 regals * 28 uncommon lore items)
*Rare* Lore item value - 800 regals (Avg. item value 400 regals * 2 rare lore items)
Lottery - 120 regals (Avg. 15 regals a lottery* 8 lottery drawings)

Darkrooming - 2200 regals (1 hour each day for 5 days a week, 22 hours a month)

Total Income: 4554 regals
Total profit: 2889 regals

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The only numbers I saw in this bit that you can justify using are the set prices of a Regalian shop and a market shop. Everything else, especially the multiples you use for your new features, are completely unfounded. Where the hell did you get:

• /fix f - 375 regals (25*15 regals per usage)
  
• /lore - 100 regals (5 time use, 20 regals each time)
• *Rare* Lore item value - 800 regals (Avg. item value 400 regals * 2 rare lore items)
• Darkrooming - 2200 regals (1 hour each day for 5 days a week, 22 hours a month)

I don't know if you're just making stuff up to justify your numbers, but none of this adds up to anything that remotely happens on the server. Why do you assume people will use /fix 25 times? Or lore 5 times? You've made up low enough numbers to quantify your data at the end.

My answer is yes, It is completely legitimate to ask an Active player to pay these expenses. Even with these expenses, the average player will still have more than plenty of regals left over to buy as they please. Including the onetime payment of 200 regals for plots, 750 for trait slots, in a given month an active player still ahs over 1k regals to mess around with.

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No, that's not how this works. That's not how any of this works.

Less money overall does not equal higher prices.

Are you honestly trying to tell me that if I looked at you and told you to spend more money on other things, and I told this to everyone, that after all is said and done, prices of items would go up? See, what you are proposing are money sinks. The money disappears. It doesn't switch hands. It's lost from the economy forever. It's doing more good waiting to transferred from person to person for goods or services, instead of just being gone. It would be like grinding 1000 regals in the darkroom, and then paying 1000 regals in money sinks. Nothing changed. No headway was made.

Next time you wish to reply to one of my threads, run some basic numbers

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Next time you want to attempt to justify your arguments, don't use made up data.

 

[Beetletoes]

Great, Idea, If you have 100,000r.

I have a whopping 4000r to my name. With this money, I have to spend it on two houses totaling 1300r/month, a faction that costs 5r/day, and any other expenses I have. Of any income I receive, I can expect about 600-ish Regals from votes alone, and then whatever darkrooming pays.

Needless to say, I don't have the resources to keep a positive growth of my balance. I can only go down. Sure, you could say "spend more time dark rooming." To that I say this, invent a way to add more hours to the day, and I'll darkroom for that extra time. Until then, I have more important things to do, like university work. I play Massive as a leisure activity, and don't mind the occasional grind. But If I had to grind just to make ends meet, I'd leave now and save me the trouble already.

Not to mention that this would suck for any new players, who have a whopping 0, and maybe 200 if they do the tutorial. But that cash drops after the first week, then they're screwed.

I know that there's a lot of money in the economy, and reducing that amount would be nice. But a lot people can't afford to have money sinks, since they don't have 100,000r just lying around. So for this reason, I don't think this idea is very practical. All it would reduce is the player count, and maybe some Regals because of it.

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lol I have less than 2000. Maybe 1600. Can't remember.

 

[__Kitsune__]

It's a nice idea but it's all expensive and with the new stuff that is added, hardly any regals are coming in. The most effective way to make money is /vote. Don't say something like "just grind in a darkroom" because it cost's regals to fix things and armor breaks really quick now. It's only a good idea if everyone had like 100,000r at a minimum and not everyone does have that much.

 

[Savantly]

You literally just said common sense isn't a thing.

This guy just said common sense isn't a thing.

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Common Sense isn't a thing. Look at America as a quick example.

The only numbers I saw in this bit that you can justify using are the set prices of a Regalian shop and a market shop. Everything else, especially the multiples you use for your new features, are completely unfounded. Where the hell did you get:

• /fix f - 375 regals (25*15 regals per usage)
  
• /lore - 100 regals (5 time use, 20 regals each time)
• *Rare* Lore item value - 800 regals (Avg. item value 400 regals * 2 rare lore items)
• Darkrooming - 2200 regals (1 hour each day for 5 days a week, 22 hours a month)

I don't know if you're just making stuff up to justify your numbers, but none of this adds up to anything that remotely happens on the server. Why do you assume people will use /fix 25 times? Or lore 5 times? You've made up low enough numbers to quantify your data at the end.

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Because 5 times a week voting is legitimate for an active player, darkrooming for an hour each day that you play is feasible for an active player. If I had access to more legitimate numbers then I would go off such, but AGAIN we are talking about active players. Everyone i've talked to says that they make 200 regals an hour darkrooming, I was trying to down play my own numbers. Most people would argue that rare lore items are still worth 600 regals. I put them at the lowest market price. For Uncommon lore items, i put it up with the average value of uncommon lore items that have sold in trade chat. The point is, that any player regardless of being premium or not, can in fact make far more than the deficit caused by Money sinks.

If you would like to run by some numbers that seem more legitimate then feel free to do so. Otherwise, we have no factual evidence to prove or disprove that it would dramatically affect players in a negative way.

Less money overall does not equal higher prices.

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Read the title of the Thread, and read the content of the thread again. I may even inform you that you are correct up to an extent. More regals through donation, voting, and dark rooming was not the cause for lowered god armor prices. Like I said above, the reason was because /fix was not used in moderation. God armor was fixed as soon as it was damaged, and never destroyed due to people's lack of resources to fix it, like back in the day. Using /fix in moderation (By discouraging players through charging regals) Will HELP (Notice how I didn't say completely) fix the economy. Currently they are doing away with /fix, and the point of the thread was to help bring it back, but only so people could use it in moderation. Again Read the thread.

 

[Savantly]

It's a nice idea but it's all expensive and with the new stuff that is added, hardly any regals are coming in. The most effective way to make money is /vote. Don't say something like "just grind in a darkroom" because it cost's regals to fix things and armor breaks really quick now. It's only a good idea if everyone had like 100,000r at a minimum and not everyone does have that much.

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Like I said above "Numbers are just for an example, numbers can be replaced with any number desired by staff." I hate it when you guys forget to thoroughly read the post.

 

[Zacatero]

Common Sense isn't a thing. Look at America as a quick example.

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Those who say common sense isnt a thing.. ive seen most of their arguments rely on ad hominem and reductio ad absurdum to try to convince others they are right, when in fact they arent.

 

[__Kitsune__]

Like I said above "Numbers are just for an example, numbers can be replaced with any number desired by staff." I hate it when you guys forget to thoroughly read the post.

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I was just making a point, it's just why does this stuff all need to cost regals?

 

[Savantly]

I was just making a point, it's just why does this stuff all need to cost regals?

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Oh my god, like I said in the original post "These are just examples, adding a charge can be made to anything."

 

[Alj23]

Common Sense isn't a thing. Look at America as a quick example.

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I guess you're ignoring the rest of the world then, yes? This is such a weird argument you make, that "common sense" doesn't exist. It's like arguing water isn't wet.

Because 5 times a week voting is legitimate for an active player, darkrooming for an hour each day that you play is feasible for an active player. If I had access to more legitimate numbers then I would go off such, but AGAIN we are talking about active players. Everyone i've talked to says that they make 200 regals an hour darkrooming, I was trying to down play my own numbers. Most people would argue that rare lore items are still worth 600 regals. I put them at the lowest market price. For Uncommon lore items, i put it up with the average value of uncommon lore items that have sold in trade chat. The point is, that any player regardless of being premium or not, can in fact make far more than the deficit caused by Money sinks.

If you would like to run by some numbers that seem more legitimate then feel free to do so. Otherwise, we have no factual evidence to prove or disprove that it would dramatically affect players in a negative way.

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I get that money sinks are an important aspect of balancing the economy. But it is only one aspect. But sinking money out of the economy left and right will not benefit the player base. It will take money out of the hands of people that drive the economy, and they won't be able to buy items at the prices they are at. So you're at an impasse. Either items aren't sold, or item prices are once again lowered to meet the new demand, which is at a much lower price for the same quantity of items.

Read the title of the Thread, and read the content of the thread again. I may even inform you that you are correct up to an extent. More regals through donation, voting, and dark rooming was not the cause for lowered god armor prices. Like I said above, the reason was because /fix was not used in moderation. God armor was fixed as soon as it was damaged, and never destroyed because of the lack of time to get resources to fix the armor. Using /fix in moderation (By discouraging players by charging regals) Will fix the economy. Currently they are doing away with /fix, and the point of the thread was to help bring it back, but only so people could use it in moderation. Again Read the thread.

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You're looking at this from one aspect, when a multi-aspect approach is what's needed to bring the economy to a more stable point. Supply, demand, currency in circulation, they all need to be addressed.

Your main post is talking about how adding regal cost to features that already exist in game. People are already ticked off that things they paid for to have exclusively have been given to everyone, now on top of that you want people to pay in game currency for these features? Your logic is very confusing as to what you're trying to accomplish beyond making a bit of currency disappear.

 

[Savantly]

Those who say common sense isnt a thing.. ive seen most of their arguments rely on ad hominem and reductio ad absurdum to try to convince others they are right, when in fact they arent.

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Please stick to the topic of the thread, if you need help knowing what its about, please read the title. I guess you could call that common sense... but oh wait, yeah you forgot to read the header, which is what they teach in elementary school. I may also add that the word is spelt "aren't" not "arent". I would say that's also common sense, but you failed to comply with two things that may be considered "Common knowledge". Therefore reasoning as to why I say "Common Sense" is non-existent.

 

[Zacatero]

Please stick to the topic of the thread, if you need help knowing what its about, please read the title. I guess you could call that common sense... but oh wait, yeah you forgot to read the header, which is what they teach in elementary school. I may also add that the word is spelt "aren't" not "arent". I would say that's also common sense, but you failed to comply with two things that may be considered "Common knowledge". Therefore reasoning as to why I say "Common Sense" is non-existent.

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There is a difference between common sense and caring enough to add an apostrophe on a contraction. And once again i see a perfect example of ad hominem. And if you dont understand what that means let me enlighten you.

(of an argument or reaction) directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining.

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You are insulting my.. grammar i guess this is, because im really not even in this argument so its not like you could use what ive said against me. But you see, i dont care enough about the grammar to use it 100% correctly right now. You understand what im saying. Thats all that matters.

 

[Zacatero]

ALJ arguing about common sense when he is shilling Sanders in the panhandle.

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ad hominem
(of an argument or reaction) directed against a person rather than the position they are maintaining.

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[Savantly]

I get that money sinks are an important aspect of balancing the economy. But it is only one aspect. But sinking money out of the economy left and right will not benefit the player base. It will take money out of the hands of people that drive the economy, and they won't be able to buy items at the prices they are at. So you're at an impasse. Either items aren't sold, or item prices are once again lowered to meet the new demand, which is at a much lower price for the same quantity of items.


You're looking at this from one aspect, when a multi-aspect approach is what's needed to bring the economy to a more stable point. Supply, demand, currency in circulation, they all need to be addressed.

Your main post is talking about how adding regal cost to features that already exist in game. People are already ticked off that things they paid for to have exclusively have been given to everyone, now on top of that you want people to pay in game currency for these features? Your logic is very confusing as to what you're trying to accomplish beyond making a bit of currency disappear.

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Actually, no I am not looking at this from one aspect. I have other threads that I'm going to post in the future (or ones that are half written on a google document somewhere) pertaining to the balancing of enchanting costs, Fixing demand of lore items by switching up current rewards list, possibly making it so weapons do more armor damage (Though people will not want this to happen xD)
I understand your point in all of this, and to try to reach the goal through each individual post, I have to remain one sided. If you would wish to collaborate, and make a plan that gets across to the populace more efficiently. Then I would be more than glad to.

 

[Savantly]

ALJ arguing about common sense when he is shilling Sanders in the panhandle. He is right though. Pokyug you have no statistical evidence supporting the viability of your option.

What you are proposing is the equivalent of government taxation except instead of putting the money to "good" use it literally sinks out of the economy. Taxation is theft. Taking someones fiat currency through coercion that is like a Liberterians nightmare.

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People have become far too lazy on this server, and staple commodities are retardedly easy to create. This is true especially with regals, if it were up to me, I would make it so it took 50 levels to make what we now call a "lv30 enchant". I would make it so god armor breaks twice as fast, and make it so lore items were 5 times harder to obtain. However, because of the state of inept self-sufficiency that we have reached. I have to find what feels like a median to me.
I would try to get legitimate numbers, but the resources for such are not available to me.

 

[Zacatero]

Znake the fact that you literally only attack my ad hominen points is very aggressive and just proves that you don't want to debate the real topics.

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I've come to realize that since you have used ad hominem to try to slander other people in the argument, instead of actually debate their points, that you have absolutely zero credibility. So I really dont have to debate.. i just side with whichever side you arent on. Its rather easy.

 

[Sarge_Peppers]

People have become far too lazy on this server, and staple commodities are retardedly easy to create. This is true especially with regals, if it were up to me, I would make it so it took 50 levels to make what we now call a "lv30 enchant". I would make it so god armor breaks twice as fast, and make it so lore items were 5 times harder to obtain. However, because of the state of inept self-sufficiency that we have reached. I have to find what feels like a median to me.
I would try to get legitimate numbers, but the resources for such are not available to me.

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Increased server oversight will just have a negative impact on the economy especially since it is impossible for admins to unbiaslly adjust the economy because it effects them in turn whether it is personal or through a conflict of interest.

As for you Zsnake you have 0 credibility yourself as you are 1. Passive aggresively using ad hominen attacks against me, and 2. You are throwing in a red herring. This debate has nothing to do with anyone personally, however, you are unable to release yourself from your ideals in order to have a proper debate. Debates are about open mindedness not ignoring evidence based statements

 

[Zacatero]

Why the hell is anybody arguing with this dip about helping the server economy. I mean look why he cant log in.

 

[Zacatero]

As for you Zsnake you have 0 credibility yourself as you are 1. Passive aggresively using ad hominen attacks against me, and 2. You are throwing in a red herring. This debate has nothing to do with anyone personally, however, you are unable to release yourself from your ideals in order to have a proper debate. Debates are about open mindedness not ignoring evidence based statements

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I would gather that i have much more credibility than you would think. Plus you dont seem to understand what Ad Hominem is.
Ad hominem is for example...

Bob: "I think the sky is blue"
Jeff: "You got a D on your last math test so what do you know about the sky?"

Alj: "Here is some information about how we can help the economy"
Sarge_Peppers: "Well this quote from your reddit shows you support Bernie Sanders so you dont know what you are talking about"

Same thing.

In MY case against you. Im not using these things to counter your argument to try to convince others that my argument is better. Remember im not vocal in this argument because i honestly dont know enough about economics to have a good stance in this. I see you losing the argument and then using ad hominem to convince others you are right.

 

[Savantly]

Why the hell is anybody arguing with this dip about helping the server economy. I mean look why he cant log in.

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It is completely inappropriate to bring up someones ban, you have no idea what the circumstances were pertaining to that issue. I should actually report you for mentioning it. I will report you for mentioning it and much more if you keep filling up my thread with your garbage.

 

[Zacatero]

It is completely inappropriate to bring up someones ban, you have no idea what the circumstances were pertaining to that issue. I should actually report you for mentioning it, and I for doing such and much more if you keep filling up my thread with your garbage.

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to be fair. you brought it up.

 

[Savantly]

Requesting @Staff to please help me and clean up this thread. Thanks ^_^

 

[Zacatero]

For the staff.. He deleted a post where he did bring up his ban. I see he deleted it.. idk why.

 

[Zacatero]

I dont think you understand why my quoting ALJ's personal views are pertinent to the argument. I am bringing up the point that alj has conflicting principles. Economic idealogy should remain consistent regaurdless of if it is a game or not. If he can give up his socialist idealogy to support capitalist thoughts then how much credibility does he really have? When will he pancake again and say we need more intervention? Conflicting principles lead to flawed policy.

If you dont have any economics background and you aren't going to debate the economics then perhaps you should not be here.

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I disagree. Having an IRL ideology that is seperate from a fictional universe makes sense. The Harry Potter world uses different economics than our world. Narnia, whatever you want to call the world the hunger games is in, Oz, etc. Fictional universes dont run with the same rules as ours. Therefore we shouldnt think of them in the same way.

 

[Jackmo_Jones]

Common Sense isn't a thing. Look at America as a quick example.

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Calling Americans ignorant while at the same time saying common sense doesn't exist. Just because you lack common sense doesn't mean it does not exist.

 

[Winterless]

To be honest, these economy changes do not concern a vast majority of the server. I'm sure new players like having cheap diamonds, and I also know that pretty much every PvPer likes it as it gives them ways to fix their armor and have weapons with which to fight. To quote Vanos, (@Gobian) "That sounds like a you problem."

 

[Winterless]

Please don't use the phrase "Common Sense" over 99% of the world uses Fossil fuels that release harmful green house gasses. Yet as a race we blatantly ignore the harmful effects of using fuels to power, cars, planes, and trains. Studies have show that those same green house gasses are released into the atmosphere, and consequently the ozone layer opens up holes within itself to remove these toxins. Thus increasing the risk for getting skin cancer. "Common Sense" is not a thing, that point is moot.


Owning a faction and paying taxes are basically the same cost, and nobody pays tax or tribute for the most part. That point is nearly non-existent xD
Let us add up the costs by monthly payment (Assuming they have all those expenses):
Current Money Sinks
Taxes - 150 (5 regals a day)
Market shop - 300
Regalian property - 300

MassiveMoneySinks
/fix f - 375 regals (25*15 regals per usage)
/lore - 100 regals (5 time use, 20 regals each time)
/bp - 400 (4*100 regals for 1 week of use.)
/wb - 40 (4*10 regals for 1 week of use.)

Total Expenses: 1665 Regals
We are assuming at this point, that they are an active player.

Voting (Assuming they vote 5 times a week on each website, or 198 total votes a month)
Income per vote - 594 regals (voting at all 9 sites, 5 times a week)
*Uncommon* Lore item value - 840 regals (Avg. item value 30 regals * 28 uncommon lore items)
*Rare* Lore item value - 800 regals (Avg. item value 400 regals * 2 rare lore items)
Lottery - 120 regals (Avg. 15 regals a lottery* 8 lottery drawings)

Darkrooming - 2200 regals (1 hour each day for 5 days a week, 22 hours a month)

Total Income: 4554 regals
Total profit: 2889 regals
My answer is yes, It is completely legitimate to ask an Active player to pay these expenses. Even with these expenses, the average player will still have more than plenty of regals left over to buy as they please. Including the onetime payment of 200 regals for plots, 750 for trait slots, in a given month an active player still ahs over 1k regals to mess around with.
Next time you wish to reply to one of my threads, run some basic numbers

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Why are you bringing Fossil Fuels into a Minecraft server economy discussion....

 

[Winterless]

People have become far too lazy on this server, and staple commodities are retardedly easy to create. This is true especially with regals, if it were up to me, I would make it so it took 50 levels to make what we now call a "lv30 enchant". I would make it so god armor breaks twice as fast, and make it so lore items were 5 times harder to obtain. However, because of the state of inept self-sufficiency that we have reached. I have to find what feels like a median to me.
I would try to get legitimate numbers, but the resources for such are not available to me.

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Mate, we're sitting here arguing about an economy on a MINECRAFT SERVER. Who actually cares if we're being lazy? I'd rather be lazy but having fun (The current state of Massive) over being pro-active but constantly grinding and bored any day of the week. Unless you are trying to make money out of selling regals, I do not see how this helps anyone.