Archived Hcf Classes In Pvp- Solution To Traits And "uniqueness"

[65jes89]

What is HCF?
HCF, or hardcore factions, is a gamemode, where you essentially attempt to make other factions go "raidable" by killing them, at which point you are able to break blocks in their territory, steal their stuff, etc. Now, obviously this would probably not go over all to well among most of Massive's community, and I am in no way suggesting this. However, a major element of HCF is the classes (also referred to as kits, although you can't actually receive the items through /kit or otherwise non-vanilla ways). These classes allow for useful roles, even if straight-up melee isn't your thing, while being extremely well balanced, and adding a lot more diversity, and ultimately, fun to the game.

Classes:
There are generally four classes in HCF, occasionally 5 (if rogue/assassin/chain is used). In order to gain that class's abilities, you must wear four pieces of the designated armor type. If you wear mixed armor, miss a piece, etc., you will not have any abilities. The main classes are:

Diamond/Tank
Pretty much just your straight up vanilla fighter. They have no special abilities, they just have diamond armor. Makes up the bulk of a faction, and does most of the straight melee fighting.

Archer/Leather
Note: This is no way means that only archer class can use the bow or anything like that. They just do more damage with it, same as traits (without the obnoxious debuffs).
Archer has permanent speed 3 and resistance 1-2, and if they right click with a piece of sugar they gain speed 4 temporarily. There is generally a 30-60 second cooldown on this ability. Additionally, archers get slightly boosted damage (generally do 2.5ish hearts per hit, open to balancing), however they also "mark" (also referred to as tagging, not important) their target if they hit them with a fully pulled-back shot. This "mark" generally lasts about 10 seconds, and while the person is marked, they take an additional 25% damage when hit, melee, archery, or otherwise. The archer class, in my opinion, is the best (and really only decent) way to handle archery. It gives archers a pretty good support role, as well as the ability to do minimal melee PvP when chasing targets, as they have speed 3.

Bard/Mage/Gold
Bards have permanent speed 2, resistance 1-2, regen 1, and the ability to give their surrounding faction members various status effects. This is done by holding a certain item, i.e. blaze powder to give strength, sugar to give speed, iron to give resistance, and will give faction member this ability within a given radius (generally reasonably large, anywhere from 15-25ish blocks). Additionally, bards can, when they have the "energy" (regens automatically, caps at 100) they can right click one of these items, consuming that item, and giving their surrounding faction members one level of the status effect higher than what is normally given. For example, by holding a piece of blaze powder, the bard gives its surrounding faction members strength 2. If the bard right clicks this blaze powder, it gives surrounding teammates strength 3 for 5-10 seconds, consumes 40-50 energy, and consumes the blaze powder. The bard is a huge addition to strategy in PvP. Personally, I really enjoy barding; it's really not overpowered in any way, due to the huge amounts of damage one takes, and the fact that they get targeted, but they add a lot of depth to the game.

Good video of a bard fight:

(Note I'm not trying to advertise server in the video, it's actually a shitty server which is known for ddosing competitors)

Miner/Utility/Iron
Basically the class you just dump all the utility traits into. Not really meant for PvP, and they have haste 2, speed2, and generally night vision and/or fire resistance.

Assassin/Rogue/Chain
This class has speed 3, jump boost 2, and occasionally resistance, just depending on balancing. They act kind of like glass cannon supports, similar to archer, except that they can use gold swords in order to "backstab" enemy players, dealing 2.5ish hearts in burst damage, although it consumes the sword. This leads to rogues generally carrying a lot of gold swords with them, but combined with strength 3 from a bard, they can quickdrop people who aren't paying attention, although they are rather squishy.

Isn't this just traits but with armor?
In a word, no. In a few words, traits:

really defeats the purpose of traits, to make pvp more unique, and instead it becomes pvp with really weird damage, due to having 14 hearts instead of 10, and having a ton of factors affecting damage, making it harder to regulate.

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Basically, traits defeats itself. The abilities are constant, and the same for everyone. However, this is a bit more like races, except that all of the roles are pretty well balanced. Sure, diamond is objectively better in a 1v1, however, in a 5v5, if one side has 4 diamonds and a bard, and the other side has 5 diamonds, the side with the bard is going to win, no ifs, ands, or buts. Essentially, this does what the original intention of traits was: it adds strategy to PvP, is configurable, and in addition to Massive's other features leads to a very unique PvP experience, and is really just a lot of fun. Additionally, HCF classes are a familiar sight to PvPers from other servers; traits are not. Might even help them get over the fact that there's McMMO xP.

At this point, I'm getting close to 1000 words, and it's getting kind of late, so I'm going to leave the rest of this to replies. Please be civil and don't flame <3

@BenRekt
@FireFan96 since I think you're the one who asked for this

 

[littleshep101]

My two cents:

Have more than one class for each archetype and make those classes unique with their own lore.

Some examples of different classes:

• A highly skilled fighter that uses their natural agility and strength to dodge, parry, and block attacks.
• A warrior/mage will less skill than a fighter that uses their magic ability to reduce damage taken and heal themselves.
• A 'theif' class that wears minimal armor and smaller weapons. They have the ability to quickly dash behind others and can sometimes parry attacks.
• One mage class based on each of the schools of magic.
• A 'healer' class that does minimal damage but can heal others.
• Classes like Paladin and Cleric that get divine powers through dedication to a god instead of from magic.

Click to shrink...

To be perfectly honest this is really great and cool but this would only be possible in RP by acting it out not actual PvP(for example being able to parry). The only reasonably thing to code is Healer which is like bard, bards can give you regen and resist. Also the Thief class is like rouge having speed 3 and jump 3 run up and jump then hit em with a few gold swords. the mage would just be like having fireball but more traits that have more variability and finaly I think the last one is the warrior mage pretty much a more tanky healer/bard that dosn't have as much OP effects but other than that I think they would be hard to code. Just my opinion

 

[Alj23]

(I know this isn't a thread in support of traits, quite the opposite. Hear me out though.)

When races was the PVP plugin on Massive, I didn't really like it or hate it, it was just kind of there. If I recall correctly, everyone used undead, which was -15% damage taken, so in the end, if a fight of 10v10 people took place, and they were all the undead race, it didn't really matter much in the end. Everything cancelled.

Now, when MassiveTraits was introduced, I was very excited at the prospects of people running different builds. As time went by though, it became obvious that people ran the same trait builds for the most part, because all the other one-trick-pony trait builds were too high of a risk and not enough reward because of MassiveCraft's jank way of handling damage.

I personally would be in favor of a reintroduction of all the 150ish traits we had before most of them were removed, but configure them in a way that there are more distinct trait builds and roles.

For example:

1. The tank: Tons of health. HealthBoost2 and Absorption2 would be the core traits of this build. Disable the ability to use any extra damage traits such as HarmStrike and Expert traits.
2. The DPS (damage per second): Average damage with some level of health and armor. Expert traits would be the core traits of this build. Possibly allow them to use HealthBoost1 and Absorption1. Possibly allow them to use HarmStrike.
3. The Assassin: Highest outputer of damage. Expert traits, HarmStrike, and Speed are the core traits of this build. Disable ability to use HealthBoost and Absorption traits.
4. The Healer/Utility: This would involve the creation of new traits. Similar to the bard class you suggested. Would rely on healing traits and defensive traits focused on casting them on themselves and others.

Obviously you'd see specific variations of these very generalized classes. But the main point is to create classes that have obvious drawbacks, but have enough advantages to outweigh those obvious disadvantages. That's one of the things I feel lacked in the previous iteration of traits. The meta trait build that everyone used had the advantages that everyone wanted, with near zero disadvantages.

Now you might be wondering, where does different types of armor come in? I guess in theory something could be worked out where if someone wore an entire set of say leather armor they could have permanent Speed4, than gold would be Speed3, iron would be Speed2, and diamond nothing.

I'm trying to keep most of the specialization to the traits rather than the armor. In my opinion, while I understand that incorporating armor into skill specialization would open up a lot of new roads and opportunities, I personally think focusing the specialization around armor rather than weapons make the survival worlds feel to minigame-y. I understand that might not be the easiest thing to explain, and I don't really have a better way to explain it other than the way I just did.

 

[XxXYaJrAbXxX]

I kind of like the idea but I wouldn't call it unique, what you want implemented is basically a PvP version of a trial from ESO or pretty much near PvPing in Cyrodiil.

I don't know about what the rest of you PvPers say but I liked the times when god apples were not OP, they gave you a good regen rather than absorption and the rest of the crap but PvP fights were great at that point, when a player would last in a fight anywhere from 10 minutes to 20 minutes before they would die. It was fun to PvP especially when you died and you just go get another sword or axe etc and jump back in. The biggest thing that breaks the PvP system though is McMMO as when 1 thing breaks, it makes everything unbalanced and then it gets fixed, and another thing breaks or becomes unbalanced. For example with the current system, swords do roughly 1.5 hearts of damage with a full set of god armor whereas a god bow does anything from half a heart to 1 and a half hearts on impact before health regening. Axes as well, when you get hit by a god axe, it does anywhere from 2 hearts to 3 hearts a hit depending on when you get a critical strike. Most of these effects all come from McMMO and how they have been "balanced" when if anything it is more broken. Traits and races also put a lot of unbalancing problems into the game as said before which is why most traits are removed in PvP. If traits were not removrd the people would use a standard build.

I think the problem lies with the fact that whatever we do to balance the system, it is always going to break as there is too many factors to take into account. Adding this plugin I do believe would just add another factor into the system which will continue to unbalance the table. I think what needs to happen is that everything should be layed out on the table and reworked into a proper system like @Alj23 has suggested with the example classes, and in the system in which everything should be taken into account including traits, McMMO, factions, vampire, base minecraft mechanics and other PvPing affecting plugins. It would take a long time but it needs to be done as for the entire time I have been on Massive which is nearing 5 years, the PvP system has been broken in some way or form from nerfing one thing to the next. I just hope this plugin benefits the system if it were implemented rather than break it even more from adding to the messy PvP table.

 

[Celeras]

To be perfectly honest this is really great and cool but this would only be possible in RP by acting it out not actual PvP(for example being able to parry). The only reasonably thing to code is Healer which is like bard, bards can give you regen and resist. Also the Thief class is like rouge having speed 3 and jump 3 run up and jump then hit em with a few gold swords. the mage would just be like having fireball but more traits that have more variability and finaly I think the last one is the warrior mage pretty much a more tanky healer/bard that dosn't have as much OP effects but other than that I think they would be hard to code. Just my opinion

Click to shrink...

Parrying could be just a passive damage mitigation that happens sometimes. It doesn't have to be something the player actually does. For everything else, I meant actual abilities that you use through key binds or items in your bar. So instead of just having a passive boost to speed, you have an ability you can use every couple of minutes that propels your character forward quickly. All of this is definitely possible because it has been done before with the Heroes plugin.

Other classes like the healer would have an actual ability that can be used on themselves or other players to heal health points, not just a passive regen.

 

[Savantly]

I think the problem lies with the fact that whatever we do to balance the system, it is always going to break as there is too many factors to take into account.

Click to shrink...

All you have to do is balance regen, and Damage per second.
Health pot + Health gained per pot = Regen
Hit speed + Damage per hit = Dps
Very difficult Indeed

Edit: It really should be this simple, but Minecraft isn't intended for multiplayer pvp. The system has far too many ways to deal passive damage, and not enough ways to efficiently counter them.

 

[XxXYaJrAbXxX]

All you have to do is balance regen, and Damage per second.
Health pot + Health gained per pot = Regen
Hit speed + Damage per hit = Dps
Very difficult Indeed

Edit: It really should be this simple, but Minecraft isn't intended for multiplayer pvp. The system has far too many ways to deal passive damage, and not enough ways to efficiently counter them.

Click to shrink...

I don't think you realise but regen isn't a problem. No one uses regen as you have absorption potions now and yet again god apples which are again a problem

 

[Savantly]

I don't think you realise but regen isn't a problem. No one uses regen as you have absorption potions now and yet again god apples which are again a problem

Click to shrink...

Minecraft isn't intended for multiplayer pvp. The system has far too many ways to deal passive damage, and not enough ways to efficiently counter them.

Click to shrink...

 

[Zacatero]

Minecraft isn't intended for multiplayer pvp

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Wasnt the entire point of the 1.9 "Combat" update to make minecraft about multiplayer pvp?

 

[Savantly]

Wasnt the entire point of the 1.9 "Combat" update to make minecraft about multiplayer pvp?

Click to shrink...

Yes, it was a first step to making minecraft more pvp friendly but still a very poor system. However we were talking about balancing mcmmo, with 1.8 pvp which in itself is entirely different than 1.9 combat update. Massivecraft isn't even updated to 1.9 pvp, mentioning it is hardly relevant.

 

[XxXYaJrAbXxX]

It really should be this simple, but Minecraft isn't intended for multiplayer pvp. The system has far too many ways to deal passive damage, and not enough ways to efficiently counter them.

Click to shrink...

Yes, it was a first step to making minecraft more pvp friendly but still a very poor system. However we were talking about balancing mcmmo, with 1.8 pvp which in itself is entirely different than 1.9 combat update. Massivecraft isn't even updated to 1.9 pvp, mentioning it is hardly relevant.

Click to shrink...

Minecraft isn't the problem. I am sure every PvPer can agree that Minecraft PvP is in itself very balanced and would be a lot greater than the current system BUT, it is the addons that causes the problem such as McMMO and McMMO had it's own way to "counter" the problem but it has been disabled as McMMO are not very good at balancing things. From what I have heard a lot from other PvPers and staff members is that McMMO is the problem and however much they say it would be better to remove it, McMMO will not be removed as then there would be 200+ angry players pissed that all of their hard work and hours has been deleted to get these crazy stats.

 

[Savantly]

Angry players pissed that all of their hard work and hours has been deleted to get these crazy stats.

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With minecraft vanilla there is only one way of fighting, it's very dull and easily balanced. Mcmmo lets you have a more difinitive weapon preference. However, Mcmmo combat is a very poor attempt to add variety to combat, as was traits.

I'm personally against Vanilla PvP, but I wouldn't care if the perks for combat mcmmo was removed, with the exception of archery. Archery is pointless without the mcmmo buff.

 

[XxXYaJrAbXxX]

With minecraft vanilla there is only one way of fighting, it's very dull and easily balanced. Mcmmo lets you have a more difinitive weapon preference. However, Mcmmo combat is a very poor attempt to add variety to combat, as was traits.

I'm personally against Vanilla PvP, but I wouldn't care if the perks for combat mcmmo was removed, with the exception of archery. Archery is pointless without the mcmmo buff.

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Not with the new potions, you can imbue arrows with harming 2 potions giving you 2+ hearts of damage per hit even with god armor. That is the equivalent of any other sword or axe.

 

[65jes89]

Okay, getting a bit off topic; the purpose of this thread is not to debate the merits of vanilla pvp thanks <3

 

[Zacatero]

Okay, getting a bit off topic; the purpose of this thread is not to debate the merits of vanilla pvp thanks <3

Click to shrink...

I agree, and with that let me ask a question to perhaps get back on topic. I always see threads along the lines of "Why XXX should replace traits" but I dont think the question has been asked (or at least, i havent seen the answer).

What would have to change with traits to make it ideal?

 

[Alj23]

I think I might need to state that one of the core points I was trying to make that I didn't necessarily just come out and say was: In my opinion, MassiveCraft already has a plugin that would could use to achieve this "class system", which is MassiveTraits.

Not MassiveTraits in their current state no, but MassiveTraits reworked with constant input from players along the way. I'm talking a few month long testing period, staff having players test traits in 1v1s, 2v2s, and all the way up to 15v15s and maybe beyond that.

Test at all levels, and than constantly reconfigure values. I personally think that if traits were given a sort of classification, i.e.: specific tank, dps, assassin, and utility traits, and made sure that there were enough rules coded so that a pure damage trait couldn't be paired with a pure tank trait, and maybe some inherent buffs given to shields and bows, personally I believe we could achieve the goal outlined in the original post.

 

[Alj23]

(I know this isn't a thread in support of traits, quite the opposite. Hear me out though.)

When races was the PVP plugin on Massive, I didn't really like it or hate it, it was just kind of there. If I recall correctly, everyone used undead, which was -15% damage taken, so in the end, if a fight of 10v10 people took place, and they were all the undead race, it didn't really matter much in the end. Everything cancelled.

Now, when MassiveTraits was introduced, I was very excited at the prospects of people running different builds. As time went by though, it became obvious that people ran the same trait builds for the most part, because all the other one-trick-pony trait builds were too high of a risk and not enough reward because of MassiveCraft's jank way of handling damage.

I personally would be in favor of a reintroduction of all the 150ish traits we had before most of them were removed, but configure them in a way that there are more distinct trait builds and roles.

For example:

1. The tank: Tons of health. HealthBoost2 and Absorption2 would be the core traits of this build. Disable the ability to use any extra damage traits such as HarmStrike and Expert traits.
2. The DPS (damage per second): Average damage with some level of health and armor. Expert traits would be the core traits of this build. Possibly allow them to use HealthBoost1 and Absorption1. Possibly allow them to use HarmStrike.
3. The Assassin: Highest outputer of damage. Expert traits, HarmStrike, and Speed are the core traits of this build. Disable ability to use HealthBoost and Absorption traits.
4. The Healer/Utility: This would involve the creation of new traits. Similar to the bard class you suggested. Would rely on healing traits and defensive traits focused on casting them on themselves and others.

Obviously you'd see specific variations of these very generalized classes. But the main point is to create classes that have obvious drawbacks, but have enough advantages to outweigh those obvious disadvantages. That's one of the things I feel lacked in the previous iteration of traits. The meta trait build that everyone used had the advantages that everyone wanted, with near zero disadvantages.

Now you might be wondering, where does different types of armor come in? I guess in theory something could be worked out where if someone wore an entire set of say leather armor they could have permanent Speed4, than gold would be Speed3, iron would be Speed2, and diamond nothing.

I'm trying to keep most of the specialization to the traits rather than the armor. In my opinion, while I understand that incorporating armor into skill specialization would open up a lot of new roads and opportunities, I personally think focusing the specialization around armor rather than weapons make the survival worlds feel to minigame-y. I understand that might not be the easiest thing to explain, and I don't really have a better way to explain it other than the way I just did.

Click to shrink...

I think I might need to state that one of the core points I was trying to make that I didn't necessarily just come out and say was: In my opinion, MassiveCraft already has a plugin that would could use to achieve this "class system", which is MassiveTraits.

Not MassiveTraits in their current state no, but MassiveTraits reworked with constant input from players along the way. I'm talking a few month long testing period, staff having players test traits in 1v1s, 2v2s, and all the way up to 15v15s and maybe beyond that.

Test at all levels, and than constantly reconfigure values. I personally think that if traits were given a sort of classification, i.e.: specific tank, dps, assassin, and utility traits, and made sure that there were enough rules coded so that a pure damage trait couldn't be paired with a pure tank trait, and maybe some inherent buffs given to shields and bows, personally I believe we could achieve the goal outlined in the original post.

Click to shrink...

This is just my response to my two post on this thread to say that when I have some time and motivation today, I'm going to make a thread to catalog everything and start in on the leg work I think needs to be done to get this idea in a spot for staff to work with.

 

[BenRekt]

bump