Archived Hcf Classes In Pvp- Solution To Traits And "uniqueness"

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65jes89

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What is HCF?
HCF, or hardcore factions, is a gamemode, where you essentially attempt to make other factions go "raidable" by killing them, at which point you are able to break blocks in their territory, steal their stuff, etc. Now, obviously this would probably not go over all to well among most of Massive's community, and I am in no way suggesting this. However, a major element of HCF is the classes (also referred to as kits, although you can't actually receive the items through /kit or otherwise non-vanilla ways). These classes allow for useful roles, even if straight-up melee isn't your thing, while being extremely well balanced, and adding a lot more diversity, and ultimately, fun to the game.

Classes:
There are generally four classes in HCF, occasionally 5 (if rogue/assassin/chain is used). In order to gain that class's abilities, you must wear four pieces of the designated armor type. If you wear mixed armor, miss a piece, etc., you will not have any abilities. The main classes are:

Diamond/Tank
Pretty much just your straight up vanilla fighter. They have no special abilities, they just have diamond armor. Makes up the bulk of a faction, and does most of the straight melee fighting.

Archer/Leather
Note: This is no way means that only archer class can use the bow or anything like that. They just do more damage with it, same as traits (without the obnoxious debuffs).
Archer has permanent speed 3 and resistance 1-2, and if they right click with a piece of sugar they gain speed 4 temporarily. There is generally a 30-60 second cooldown on this ability. Additionally, archers get slightly boosted damage (generally do 2.5ish hearts per hit, open to balancing), however they also "mark" (also referred to as tagging, not important) their target if they hit them with a fully pulled-back shot. This "mark" generally lasts about 10 seconds, and while the person is marked, they take an additional 25% damage when hit, melee, archery, or otherwise. The archer class, in my opinion, is the best (and really only decent) way to handle archery. It gives archers a pretty good support role, as well as the ability to do minimal melee PvP when chasing targets, as they have speed 3.

Bard/Mage/Gold
Bards have permanent speed 2, resistance 1-2, regen 1, and the ability to give their surrounding faction members various status effects. This is done by holding a certain item, i.e. blaze powder to give strength, sugar to give speed, iron to give resistance, and will give faction member this ability within a given radius (generally reasonably large, anywhere from 15-25ish blocks). Additionally, bards can, when they have the "energy" (regens automatically, caps at 100) they can right click one of these items, consuming that item, and giving their surrounding faction members one level of the status effect higher than what is normally given. For example, by holding a piece of blaze powder, the bard gives its surrounding faction members strength 2. If the bard right clicks this blaze powder, it gives surrounding teammates strength 3 for 5-10 seconds, consumes 40-50 energy, and consumes the blaze powder. The bard is a huge addition to strategy in PvP. Personally, I really enjoy barding; it's really not overpowered in any way, due to the huge amounts of damage one takes, and the fact that they get targeted, but they add a lot of depth to the game.

Good video of a bard fight:
(Note I'm not trying to advertise server in the video, it's actually a shitty server which is known for ddosing competitors)

Miner/Utility/Iron
Basically the class you just dump all the utility traits into. Not really meant for PvP, and they have haste 2, speed2, and generally night vision and/or fire resistance.

Assassin/Rogue/Chain
This class has speed 3, jump boost 2, and occasionally resistance, just depending on balancing. They act kind of like glass cannon supports, similar to archer, except that they can use gold swords in order to "backstab" enemy players, dealing 2.5ish hearts in burst damage, although it consumes the sword. This leads to rogues generally carrying a lot of gold swords with them, but combined with strength 3 from a bard, they can quickdrop people who aren't paying attention, although they are rather squishy.

Isn't this just traits but with armor?
In a word, no. In a few words, traits:
jes_ said:
really defeats the purpose of traits, to make pvp more unique, and instead it becomes pvp with really weird damage, due to having 14 hearts instead of 10, and having a ton of factors affecting damage, making it harder to regulate.
Basically, traits defeats itself. The abilities are constant, and the same for everyone. However, this is a bit more like races, except that all of the roles are pretty well balanced. Sure, diamond is objectively better in a 1v1, however, in a 5v5, if one side has 4 diamonds and a bard, and the other side has 5 diamonds, the side with the bard is going to win, no ifs, ands, or buts. Essentially, this does what the original intention of traits was: it adds strategy to PvP, is configurable, and in addition to Massive's other features leads to a very unique PvP experience, and is really just a lot of fun. Additionally, HCF classes are a familiar sight to PvPers from other servers; traits are not. Might even help them get over the fact that there's McMMO xP.

At this point, I'm getting close to 1000 words, and it's getting kind of late, so I'm going to leave the rest of this to replies. Please be civil and don't flame <3

@BenRekt
@FireFan96 since I think you're the one who asked for this
 
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Thank you for writing this up. It clarifies a lot of questions i had about this, as i havent ever actually experienced this before. I honestly cannot find anything negative about this. It even brings a market to needing enchanted gold/iron/leather/chain armor which there isnt any market for right now.
 
I do have a question actually...

If i have, say the archer leather armor on, and i quickly switch to diamond armor.. is there a cooldown before i get my new kit?
 
I do have a question actually...

If i have, say the archer leather armor on, and i quickly switch to diamond armor.. is there a cooldown before i get my new kit?
If you're switching to diamond, no. If you're switching from duiamond to any other class, there is generally a 10ish second warmup to avoid the abuse you're worried about :P
 
The two things everyone should consider are these:
  1. This allows anyone to participate in PvP regardless of how good they are at spamming their mouse because bard and archer roles are just as, if not more, important than diamond armor melee fighters
  2. This could quickly revitalize the god armor and weapon economy because people would now need to buy and create god armor in different materials (leather, gold, potentially chain) - bards also need potion ingredients to grant effects to their teammates so a new market would then be created there as well
Also, this would encourage larger battles because as I said in my first point, anyone can participate in a truley meaningful way. I feel like this could bring Massive back to the times when fights were 15v15s and potentially draw more active PvPers to the server as well.
 
The only alteration that might be needed is making the increased effects more expensive for Bards. As it stands, it is not very hard to obtain potion ingredients through farming or grinding. Perhaps making the passive effect slightly weaker in regards to radius but allowing it to function in the off-hand, but making the permanent effect require it to be in the main hand and having it eat one of the item every 10 seconds would work.

I also like the idea of having Bard and Mage as two separate classes: Bard providing Buffs for their team, and Mage inflicting Debuffs to the enemy. But, alas, we only have so many armor sets to work with.
 
Love this idea. It's no secret I left Massive for what I believe to be far superior PVP provided by the Battlefield series. This style of PVP shares a lot of the same elements as Battlefield and if implemented would definitely spark my interest back up.

Full support from me.
 
I would definitely consider getting into the PvP mode again if this was a possibility. I'm terrible at melee combat, but being a bard would definitely be a kit I could see myself using. While it is the more expensive kit to maintain (assuming you start with 0 materials like me) it still gives "pacifists" the ability to help out their melee-oriented comrades in defending and raiding.
 
Let me just point you to a few things before writing up my response-

First this: https://forums.massivecraft.com/threads/pvp-magic.44677/

MassiveMagic has finally been confirmed that it is being worked on. There are a lot of ideas in here that feel "magical" that might be included in the plugin upon completion. So while this is a pretty awesome idea, there might be no need to code it in separately or it might just be put on the back burner as something completely separate.

Next: https://forums.massivecraft.com/threads/custom-textures-for-renamed-items.48694/

As noted here there might be a way to make custom items of the same type, aka armor. Which could also mean those items each have their own custom effect despite each person wearing a set of diamond armor or whatever kind.

Pointing this out mainly because we could add our own unique spin on classes. Is the HCF classes a plugin? I'd much prefer seeing our own that we can actually tamper with and change and edit as we need. Plus the constant support of it being made to work with our own plugins. I also think the team could come up with something even better.

TL;DR-I like the idea. But it seems super time consuming.

Just for clarification tho, is this something you feel should be in kit AND survival?
 
MassiveMagic has finally been confirmed that it is being worked on. There are a lot of ideas in here that feel "magical" that might be included in the plugin upon completion. So while this is a pretty awesome idea, there might be no need to code it in separately or it might just be put on the back burner as something completely separate.
I haven't really wanted to say this until it came out or we at least learned more about the plugin, but if MassiveMagic is anything like what it was rumored to be like 2 years ago when it was originally announced, I really hope that it's implemented into the main pvp worlds in a limited extent, because it frankly sounded extremely overpowered and not particularly interesting. But, again, that was 2 years ago, so I don't really want to go full out against MassiveMagic till we learn more about the details. I sincerely doubt anything like this was implemented into MassiveMagic, or anything in MassiveMagic would make it unnecessary. Even if something was, the non-bard classes would be just fine, I'd assume. Again, I don't think we can really say unless you know something I don't from being staff, so I kinda see it as a non-issue unless/until we find out more. And of course, I don't expect this to be finished before MasssiveMagic or anything, since MassiveMagic has been in the works for literally years.

As noted here there might be a way to make custom items of the same type, aka armor. Which could also mean those items each have their own custom effect despite each person wearing a set of diamond armor or whatever kind.

Pointing this out mainly because we could add our own unique spin on classes. Is the HCF classes a plugin? I'd much prefer seeing our own that we can actually tamper with and change and edit as we need. Plus the constant support of it being made to work with our own plugins. I also think the team could come up with something even better.
Personally, I think that hcf classes are extremely balanced, and I don't think that a lot needs to be changed. The classes in addition to Massive's already unique plugins and aspects are what would make it interesting and desirable to PvPers. I mean, some minor changes, sure, the rogue/assassin thing especially would be interesting to change. I mean, I'm not opposed to changing the classes, I just don't see a reason why, especially in the case of adding more classes using data values/whatever spigot currently uses because I can't remember rn. I think adding more classes in particular would be a mistake and would just add unneeded complexity. I don't think that PvP really needs something like MassiveLock. I'm a huge fan of MassiveLock and think it's a great plugin, but it's really, really complicated, and I don't think anything like that would be good for PvP. Simplicity is good.

There are plugins for it, but most of the decent ones are closed source, so we would get stuck with a crappy one if we didn't code our own. But, yeah, I don't see anything wrong with us coding our own other than time.

Just for clarification tho, is this something you feel should be in kit AND survival?
I don't think it really matters if it's in kit or not. If it's easier to have it in kit too, do it in kit. If it's a pain to do it, don't do it. The idea is mainly focussed towards survival, though.
 
Let me just point you to a few things before writing up my response-

First this: https://forums.massivecraft.com/threads/pvp-magic.44677/

MassiveMagic has finally been confirmed that it is being worked on. There are a lot of ideas in here that feel "magical" that might be included in the plugin upon completion. So while this is a pretty awesome idea, there might be no need to code it in separately or it might just be put on the back burner as something completely separate.

Next: https://forums.massivecraft.com/threads/custom-textures-for-renamed-items.48694/

As noted here there might be a way to make custom items of the same type, aka armor. Which could also mean those items each have their own custom effect despite each person wearing a set of diamond armor or whatever kind.

Pointing this out mainly because we could add our own unique spin on classes. Is the HCF classes a plugin? I'd much prefer seeing our own that we can actually tamper with and change and edit as we need. Plus the constant support of it being made to work with our own plugins. I also think the team could come up with something even better.

TL;DR-I like the idea. But it seems super time consuming.

Just for clarification tho, is this something you feel should be in kit AND survival?

Pretty sure at this point no PvPers care about kit pvp. It's pointless and just something people go to mess around with, but even then I don't really know why kit pvp would be any different than survival - the entire point of kit is to have a way of practicing PvP in the survival worlds. Also, HCF classes has already been made and is used on many HCF servers, probably on at least a few hundred servers.

I get that it is better to code stuff in-house but as it has been made abundantly clear that Massive has very limited access to coders like Cayorian. I do not see why we should wait for something to be coded in-house when it's already been made, especially hanging our hopes on MassiveMagic - a plug-in that has literally been being discussed for years at this point.
 
My friend made Archer/Tank/Snowmage classes with 15 hours of work and a few command blocks. Why Massivemagic has taken 2 years with 3 professional programmers, It's beyond my comprehension.
Because cayorion plans out plugins, writes extremely efficient ooc, etc. I mean, you can do that kind of stuff, but if you want to add something, find a major bug, etc., you're screwed.
 
I quit massive pvp for hcf and this might make me come back. This would defiantly add some much needed depth to pvp, and could also bring players who wouldn't normally pvp in as bards so they can still help even if they don't have the skill or whatever to actually fight people. The only problem is I think a big like bonus to bards in hcf is to give strength effects but on massive strength potions are a thing so this would make bards not as useful, still useful but not as much, the way I could see this being fixed is either make it so bards can give strength 3 and strength 4 if they consume the blaze powder or massive could just remove strength pots all together although this would mean staff would have to completely rebalance damage because then people would be doing little to no damage without a bard.

Side note, atm debuffs and Buffs generally last longer than normal because of server lag, this could cause the bards to become glitched, giving your whole team strength whatever for more than like 4 seconds or whatever it could turn the tides of a fight because of lag not skill
 
I rarely do anything on Massive these days, but my shitty ass pvp skills will be returning if a plugin like this is added. Sounds like a fantastic idea!
 
I rarely do anything on Massive these days, but my bleepity bleep pvp skills will be returning if a plugin like this is added. Sounds like a fantastic idea!
Language man there are children here
dun hurt meh ples
In all seriousness though, this sounds like a great idea and I would actually be hyped about pvp again if something like this actually was implemented. The fact that players who dont have the best computer/internet/skill could actually participate and even be an asset seems like a great way to spark life into the pvp community again
Archery hype
 
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Language man there are children here
dun hurt meh ples
In all seriousness though, this sounds like a great idea and I would actually be hyped about pvp again if something like this actually was implemented. The fact that players who dont have the best computer/internet/skill could actually participate and even be an asset seems like a great way to spark life into the pvp community again
Archery hype
This is one the greatest things about the suggested idea, it would make it immensely easier to get people into the pvp community and make it more fun/interesting overall, resulting in higher retention rates for those who are interested in pvping

Also, Night you're cute
 
uh my only question, how does this benefit RP??? I role play on massive like 24/7 so I need some type of reassurance
 
uh my only question, how does this benefit RP??? I role play on massive like 24/7 so I need some type of reassurance
It doesn't really benefit most RPers, since Regalia is a non-PvP world.

From what I've been reading, I assume most RPers just tp to Regalia or hide behind a door for a raid. But I suppose if you wanted to defend, you now have more classes to choose from, and some kits might be able to slow down raiders.
 
From what I see I have done in hcf kit pvp servers, and the classes are quite unique if you are a bard you can change a battle but you die in a few hits. Also with archer if you can land hits it will change the battle. Many people I know think that it is no reason to use god armor because it gives no buffs. But to any of you who have said that to yourselves or saying it will be harder for new people to start.(most reason I ssee people not want it) It is easier for people to join and start because to get a bow and leather armor is extremely easy to get. Also it adds more things to buy in the shop making the economy a bit better.
 
It doesn't really benefit most RPers, since Regalia is a non-PvP world.

From what I've been reading, I assume most RPers just tp to Regalia or hide behind a door for a raid. But I suppose if you wanted to defend, you now have more classes to choose from, and some kits might be able to slow down raiders.
He's trolling bb
 
as i have said i like the feel of HFC class leave this one with me and ill see what i can come upwith
Can we see what you're planning on doing before you implement it? I think a lot of the bad changes recently are due to us rushing in to them without any second thought. I'd just like to know if a few pvpers could test out your ideas before they get added into the game
 
Can we see what you're planning on doing before you implement it? I think a lot of the bad changes recently are due to us rushing in to them without any second thought. I'd just like to know if a few pvpers could test out your ideas before they get added into the game


Nothing is planed yet right now im working on get a new Koth Plugin or something like it as the one we have is bugg as shit


Also what bad changes recently ?
 
Nothing is planed yet right now im working on get a new Koth Plugin or something like it as the one we have is bugg as shit


Also what bad changes recently ?
Well, not recently. But in the past year or so there's been a bunch. Like doubling taxes and making it so factions could only claim in three worlds for example. Wasn't trying to be disrespectful but there has been some pretty big changes that seem to have just happened over night. Some have been good and others have caused a lot of controversy. I'm just trying to make sure players are more involved with the new features that get added to limit the amount of bitching we have to hear after new stuff is implemented.
 
My two cents:

Have more than one class for each archetype and make those classes unique with their own lore.
Some examples of different classes:
  • A highly skilled fighter that uses their natural agility and strength to dodge, parry, and block attacks.
  • A warrior/mage will less skill than a fighter that uses their magic ability to reduce damage taken and heal themselves.
  • A 'theif' class that wears minimal armor and smaller weapons. They have the ability to quickly dash behind others and can sometimes parry attacks.
  • One mage class based on each of the schools of magic.
  • A 'healer' class that does minimal damage but can heal others.
  • Classes like Paladin and Cleric that get divine powers through dedication to a god instead of from magic.
 
You're entitled to your own opinion
 
I think some of the new changes are a double edged sword. Sure the new higher taxes are better for the overall economy, but perhaps that change shouldve waited for the (admittedly mia) Job Island.
 
I like the idea of this. The problem with this is mcmmo, people with axes will 3-4 hit bards. Also before even considering something big like this why not remove thorns? thorns is pretty much what is killing PvP right now in my opinion, and im not the only one with that opinion.
 
You're entitled to your own opinion
Just as much as your entitled to make consistently stupid remarks :)

Also a sidenote:
Raising the faction price for tax and creation cost, forces people to utilize the power they're given. You can do a lot in one chunk. It was a very smart idea to circumvent the increase in individual player wealth. The average player right now has over 80% more regals than they did in July (2700 avg in July, 4700 avg in December). It is not an opinion it is fact. The average can complain all they want, but at the end of the day they can still afford it.

Claiming has been an ongoing issue for years, finding a spot to claim anywhere decent was a tremendous pain in the arse, combined with increased faction upkeep and creation cost (Cause nobody factions die off, and are produced at a lower rate). The 3 world claim limit allows players to have significantly more flexibility when finding a place to claim.

Again it's not opinion, those changes do help newer factions create stronger and longer lasting infrastructure with less recruitment competition from factions tha virtually have nothing to offer for the newbie player base.
 
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Sure, but deserved? Yes.
You're simply just being disrespectful. In your opinion my ideas might be stupid, but a lot of them are actually considered seeing as they benefit PvPers. You don't need to agree, but you should at least keep your personal attacks to yourself because they don't help anything. That's all I had to say and I'm not going to reply any more to you on this thread unless it's actually related to Jes' topic