Archived Counter Attacks, A More Logical Thread.

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thor5648

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The reason I am not playing much massivecraft is because pvp isn't really correct on it. I realize the staff have other priorities and not enough time to fully think out pvp, which I respect. I will make a thread later with a full list of suggestions. The counters are not doing what they are intended to do, they are glitches on massive specifically. It should be doing 50% of the damage it countered (3 heart hit = 3*0.5=1.5 hearts of damage. Instead it divides it for some reason, example (3 heart hit 3/0.50= 6 hearts of damage) Now take into consideration that counters do not take weakness pots, faction buffs, or the undead. If you are wearing prot 4, in your own land, undead, and weakness pot the opponent that is 1/2 heart every 2 hits when the opponent hits with a sharp V strength II. Now remember counter takes the base damage and ignores the damage reduction. Now let's put on some thorns 3 on dat shit, pop a golden apple, and sit there holding counter attack. That is a one shot at times, and at least 7 hearts a counter (taking not even half a heart if it isn't counter) Only solution is to make it 5% to counter. Orrrr massive could try fixing it and most likely mess their mcmmo even more up...


Credits for the video @gridiron ^^
 
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thor5648 said:
The reason I am not playing much massivecraft is because pvp isn't really correct on it. I realize the staff have other priorities and not enough time to fully think out pvp, which I respect. I will make a thread later with a full list of suggestions. The counters are not doing what they are intended to do, they are glitches on massive specifically. It should be doing 50% of the damage it countered (3 heart hit = 3*0.5=1.5 hearts of damage. Instead it divides it for some reason, example (3 heart hit 3/0.50= 6 hearts of damage) Now take into consideration that counters do not take weakness pots, faction buffs, or the undead. If you are wearing prot 4, in your own land, undead, and weakness pot the opponent that is 1/2 heart every 2 hits when the opponent hits with a sharp V strength II. Now remember counter takes the base damage and ignores the damage reduction. Now let's put on some thorns 3 on dat shit, pop a golden apple, and sit there holding counter attack. That is a one shot at times, and at least 7 hearts a counter (taking not even half a heart if it isn't counter) Only solution is to make it 5% to counter. Orrrr massive could try fixing it and most likely mess their mcmmo even more up...
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I feel that if you first say...
thor5648 said:
I realize the staff have other priorities and not enough time to fully think out pvp, which I respect.
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But then end with...
thor5648 said:
Orrrr massive could try fixing it and most likely mess their mcmmo even more up...
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Kind of counter productive to your first statement.

At least they gave it the time to attempt a fix.
 
Well then take away all that Crits then consider the nerf (no offense to you guys), people intend to think that counters are OP when they have failed to realize that the whole point of combat is to use different types of weapons. Like bows counter swords, swords counter axes and axes counter bow users (as well as unarmed). People always complain about how there is no skill in block-hitting, well i personally think that axes have nothing to do with skill... but instead of spamming the left click button and smashing all opponents... The best solution is just REMOVE Mcmmo or replace it with a different combat system, i dont care about it anymore.
 
togal300 said:
The best solution is just REMOVE Mcmmo or replace it with a different combat system, i dont care about it anymore.
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As Thortuna said and I quote:"We will not remove McMMo, and PvP plugins are different to code then RPG plugins".
So this is where the problem is, swords are by itself doing big amount of damage, I get wrecked mostly by gridiron when we are PvPing, when he uses swords, but when he starts to block, I can just wait until he stops blocking, because if I would hit him, I would be dead, because of insane counter damage.
 
This is kind of funny, before one month everyone was tiered of massive axe dmg on armor and now counter is the problem? Somehow I think, personaly, that we should play vanilla pvp. I mean after a problem there is allways a new one.
 
If anyone has actually looked it up, there is other MMO plugins out there but they rely on Spout plugin to run on the server. I do not know where Cayorion stands with this but by the look of it, it is a lot better than McMMo. I will create my own server and test it out to see what it is like but if you use spoutcraft client, you get everything up on screen such as your levels and other stuff. It offers a wide range of stuff such as armor indicators in the sidebar so there is no need for armor status mod anymore. A link is here if you want to look into it:

http://dev.bukkit.org/bukkit-plugins/mmocore/
Just realised it does not have any skills but you get what I am saying.
 
It would be the same as McMMo now... It would just be less glitchy and wont have as many bugs. FYI, a majority of the old Massivecraft plugins needed Spoutcraft for the full experience but would still work without it. It is like having to install optifine to stop lag so you get a better experience on minecraft but it still works without it.
 
Actually, I remember the staff saying something about it replacing MCMMO as well.
 
The overall best solution is to remove McMMO.

We won't have to deal with bugs, people won't complain about how OP someone's axe skill is, and people won't have to worry about someone using counter attacks and dying when the other player doesn't even hit them. This would make PvP a lot more balanced and fun, but still let the best players win, since if they are good now they should be about the same without McMMO.

Also, archery would now be not useless, which makes PvP that much more dynamic and strategic.

This is just my opinion for how to completely fix the server's PvP in one fell swoop.

People would complain for a few days. But then, after a little while, they would start to realize how much more fair, balanced, and less glitchy PvP is without McMMO.
 
One problem with replacing mcmmo is then suddenly all those god axes are worthless as swords will do more damage, which many people, myself included, would be annoyed by.

Edit: Oh and you're forgetting all the non combat skills as well and the bonuses they have. Removing mcmmo would have a large impact on the economy and although you say people would complain for only a few days I think you'll find that a number of people will leave.
 
Well I'm pretty sure if the trait system replaces MCMMO, there would be suitable replacements for most of the noncombat skills as well as traits for axes.
 
There is nothing wrong with mcmmo overall, it is a great plugin and very responsible kind developers. Most of the problems, such as counter attacks not doing the right amount of damage and also archery not doing 3 hearts a hit (like it is meant to in vanilla pvp) is actually massives side, not mcmmo. Another pvp suggestion- No cheat plus is the worst plugin for pvp, it is mostly used for vanilla servers to make sure people do not fly and is being rapidly abandoned because of its terrible effect on pvp. Also Alj23 I said that at the end as something they could do if they have the time, they could just go into the file in about say... 2 minutes change 30% to 5% and reboot for 10 seconds when they get the chance.
 
thor5648 said:
There is nothing wrong with mcmmo overall, it is a great plugin and very responsible kind developers. Most of the problems, such as counter attacks not doing the right amount of damage and also archery not doing 3 hearts a hit (like it is meant to in vanilla pvp) is actually massives side, not mcmmo. Another pvp suggestion- No cheat plus is the worst plugin for pvp, it is mostly used for vanilla servers to make sure people do not fly and is being rapidly abandoned because of its terrible effect on pvp. Also Alj23 I said that at the end as something they could do if they have the time, they could just go into the file in about say... 2 minutes change 30% to 5% and reboot for 10 seconds when they get the chance.
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There is a great problem with McMMo. When 1 skill is nerfed another is overpowered and when they nerf that it just happens to another skill. It is just like axes with the armor damage where soon if you get it high enough, you will be able to 1 hit armor due to no cap. You may think it is great as you are top of the server but how about if a admin/moderator reset your axes levels to 0 for 1 or 2 weeks, start raiding other people with 3000 axes and see how much your armor gets damaged.
 
Removing McMMO will just piss off a section of the community; namely, those who have spent hours training their combat skills (Literally, dozens upon dozens of hours.). I don't quite understand how a thread simply asking for a fix to the countering calculations has devolved into a post rampant with anti-McMMO statements as a whole. People work hard on their skills and expect to be rewarded for their efforts. As fantastic a server as Massive is, especially for RP, other elements have to be taken into account.

Say if someone were to base their playtime around selling huge, bulk quantaties of wood to people, another does the same with the selling of ores and ingots: They get their woodcutting / mining to a thousand, not only as a result of their work, but also to make the process more efficient. One day, McMMO disappears. That person is now drastically short-changed; they've lost their hard-earned benefit over the rest of the player base. That would irritate me to the point of leaving.

I think it's important to remember that McMMO isn't just PVP. The removal of McMMO, as many users are suggesting above, is like ripping down your entire house because you've found a crack in the wall. An attempt at a fix has to come first.
 
But it will also give everyone a fresh start. From what I have heard, Cayorion already wants to create his own version of McMMo so every plugin on massivecraft will be his own. Either way, it will happen at some point.
 
Mecharic said:
Gonna be honest, I have yet to see someone use counter attack in pvp and actually be successful.
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Today @SwagLordGridIron1024 was in a tiny room with two enemies, so obviously he serrated strikes/split and he was on potions. His enemy wasn't on potions but nonetheless gave two counters and that made him die...?
 
Just my 2 sense that I know will piss people off. Reset mcmmo, take away PvE leveling up. OP werent really that big of a problem before it was discovered people could just sit in a dark.room and the player woth the most spare time to grind in it was the strongest.
Sorry for spelling, im.on a glitchy ass touch screen.
 
Mecharic
I was defending our ally Acheron from Ridenval, and I died to skysoh in two hits from counter attacks.

If you think about that logically, how can he do that? I can't two shot him without counter... But he can kill me if I only hit him twice. This is obviously a very major issue, since it is just not fair at all to be two-shot in god armor by someone who only hit you like 5 times and blocked with their sword the rest.

Honestly, removing McMMO will fix a lot of issues. Replacing it with another plugin like mmoCore won't help, since it will undoubtedly create more issues.
 

Well, there goes MassiveCraft PvP. I for one am getting really pessimistic about the PvP community, since I haven't seen a staff member officially comment or make a thread about fixing PvP or even listening to the community's ideas and complaints.
 
Phrowenia said:
As Thortuna said and I quote:"We will not remove McMMo, and PvP plugins are different to code then RPG plugins".
So this is where the problem is, swords are by itself doing big amount of damage, I get wrecked mostly by gridiron when we are PvPing, when he uses swords, but when he starts to block, I can just wait until he stops blocking, because if I would hit him, I would be dead, because of insane counter damage.
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Then pull out a damn bow and start shooting him if he doesn't stop blocking...
 
Joshy54100 said:
Well, there goes MassiveCraft PvP. I for one am getting really pessimistic about the PvP community, since I haven't seen a staff member officially comment or make a thread about fixing PvP or even listening to the community's ideas and complaints.
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Then you don't spread the forums that much. I myself suggested the trait plugin replace MCMMO, on that same thread, MonMarty told me straightforwardly that they would not remove MCMMO, at first I didn't know why they wouldn't, but at this point I have collected a new opinion, this is due to my own research and not me blindly following every word the staff say without further question.

This is the truth: The staff DO listen to players, even on PVP matters. Half of the recent updates were ABOUT PVP, Considering they changed Premium, Fishing, MCMMO, Etc. To balance PVP. They obviously speak to players, as the staff informs them about changes, tells them why these changes were made, and they even give us answers as to the future of the server and their plugins. Just because they don't spend every minute of their lives sitting down and explaining the finer details to every single new player on the server, doesn't mean they don't care about the player-base, or PVP.
 
http://www.twitch.tv/gridiron1024/c/3474273
watch this video to see how counters are in Pvp.
For those who don't really understand Pvp, allow me to explain. Basicly I was running from MDJ, out geared and lower on health. Honestly, I should have died, I had hardly any potions left and jumped into the fight with 3 less hearts than full. As he was hitting me next to the tree however, I was able to hold block, and get enough counters that allowed me to kill him in only a few hits. Scenarios such as this are what makes counters very OP, and annoying as hell from a pvp standpoint.

*note, the fight is towards the end of the video that I refer to.
 
I don't get it, if everyone is that fussed about the problem, suggest a better plugin on the bukkit forums than McMMo that you have tested, looked into and has similar traits to McMMo but without the bugs and the self-centered McMMo staff. Skills do not really matter at this stage as it is easy to obtain them and will happen later on whether you like it or not if Cayorion does actually want to make a plugin similar to McMMo at some point in the future.
 
There are the floating concerns that MCMMO is not designed to cater to a number of players such as MassiveCraft's. Most other servers have periodic MCMMO stat wipes, which we despite and won't ever get into.

We may in the future design our own system, which holds into account a larger player base, as well as the potential of players who reach such high ratings, but for the time being this is not high on our to-do list.

Our Direction staff (Those in charge of directly running the direction MassiveCraft goes into) Is currently split up into three different concerted efforts. Cayorion leads the group that focusses on the new Magic Plugin, grabbing staff here and there to help him brainstorm, but not really impeding on their own work. I myself lead the group focussed on Roleplay and Regalia, taking world staff to enhance and enlarge Regalia, as well as the construction of new worlds, and quest Islands, with Warrenord currently planned. Finally, Thortuna leads the group focussed on regulation, and quite recently with PVP concerns. She will be taking from the game staff to help her reach improvements, those of the staff that are closest with, and are in fact also, Pvp'ers.

PVP concerns are being adressed, but the pvp community must also understand they are very difficult to please and deal with. We have asked before for input from the players, and while some are capable of producing a coherent strategy to deal with the issues, their proposals are often immediately attacked by the same people from the pvp community. This is not present in the roleplay community, which is why it looks like so much more gets done intentionally, which is not the case. Roleplayers are (in our perspective) simply easier to deal with, and more acceptive of change, and the opinions of others.

We have recently taken a more pro-active approach as "mediators" to the issue. We find if the community cannot unite into a proposal, we have to do it for them, and determine an approach which will receive the least negativity from all target groups. Above all, it is important to remember that whatever change is put trough, is not in any way attended to annoy anyone or favor anyone. Every change implemented is preceded by research, which given the data at the time, is presented to be the most useful solution that will "hurt" the least players. Obviously every change has it's victims, but these things are unavoidable.

TLTR; We are working on the PVP issue. We do what we can where we can, without negative return.
 
Joshy54100 - They've actually been doing a great deal of balancing I feel. Granted, they're going about it wrong (it should be caps, not nerfs) but that is their choice to make.

gridiron1024 - Heh. Are we sure it isn't a glitch? And assuming that it is always going to be that effective, it means that archery will become more important due to lack of block ability.
 
Mecharic said:
Joshy54100 - They've actually been doing a great deal of balancing I feel. Granted, they're going about it wrong (it should be caps, not nerfs) but that is their choice to make.

gridiron1024 - Heh. Are we sure it isn't a glitch? And assuming that it is always going to be that effective, it means that archery will become more important due to lack of block ability.
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I'm pretty sure it was said that with the current version of MCMMO they cannot cap skills, as it is not in the plugins coding.
 
XxXYaJrAbXxX said:
They can cap skills it is just difficult to do as they need to make a plugin add on which takes a lot of time.
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Doing so would cause even further lag, and could take weeks to months. Then when they upgrade to the latest version of MCMMO, this plugin becomes useless and no longer functions. This is a ineffective way of fixing the problem, thus the changes to the actual stats and the "nerfs".
 
patrickdxs said:
Doing so would cause even further lag, and could take weeks to months. Then when they upgrade to the latest version of MCMMO, this plugin becomes useless and no longer functions. This is a ineffective way of fixing the problem, thus the changes to the actual stats and the "nerfs".
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Lag is caused due to the fact McMMo does not know how to code properly. They have set every skill as a high priority making it need to load more than every other plugin. If they were to prioritize the skills then it would be a lot less laggy. Prioritizing the skills make it not need to be loaded as much such as mining, herbalism and other gathering skills where PvP should be top priority skills needing to be loaded as you will use swords and skills like that more than woodcutting or mining in a PvP battle.
 
Anyway the nerfs are coded into addons in anyway. There is no way of configuring the skills fully in McMMo configs making it a bad plugin.
 
XxXYaJrAbXxX said:
Lag is caused due to the fact McMMo does not know how to code properly. They have set every skill as a high priority making it need to load more than every other plugin. If they were to prioritize the skills then it would be a lot less laggy. Prioritizing the skills make it not need to be loaded as much such as mining, herbalism and other gathering skills where PvP should be top priority skills needing to be loaded as you will use swords and skills like that more than woodcutting or mining in a PvP battle.
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I'm sorry. What.
 
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