Apparent Discrepancies In The Treatment Of Some Factions Compared To Others

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Sisley_ said:
@MonMarty, is there any way that Assembly and KillingKing could be given a second chance, they always complained about the lag they were having, so it might have had something to do with that, they weren't bad people, Assembly was one of the nicest PvPers I knew, at least he didn't treat me like shit like all the other PvPers [except SpecTec] who insulted me because me buying Valyria. I really, really think that he should be given a second chance.
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I'm sorry, but they will have to do things like every other player. That is by creating an appeal on the forums.
 
Sisley_ said:
@MonMarty, is there any way that Assembly and KillingKing could be given a second chance, they always complained about the lag they were having, so it might have had something to do with that, they weren't bad people, Assembly was one of the nicest PvPers I knew, at least he didn't treat me like shit like all the other PvPers [except SpecTec] who insulted me because me buying Valyria. I really, really think that he should be given a second chance.
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Their bans will be looked at and judged for their individual merits. I cannot let exterior opinions influence the decision taking, so I won't make a yes or no response to that.
 
MonMarty said:
You're stating "majority of the staff" and such. The Game staff is not the largest department, the Lore staff is, and the game staff doesn't even cover 1/4 of the server staff last I checked. It's a consideration worth taking, in the same light that players don't like being generalized, staff don't either. We are all varying loyal to different factions, and not all of us are friends, what to expect of 45 people.
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Clearly my phrasing was incorrect but forgive the mistake as I almost never interact with any of the Lore staff or vice versa. I should have said a number of staff rather than a majority. I also understand not all of the staff will be friends but some of them will be.
 
The message that I'm trying to convey is that we understand if you feel magnanimus's enemies get banned quickly for hacking, and that the staff are biased towards them, however it's not true, and I'm putting effort to try and show you why. Like I said, I brought this very thing up with spectec before this thread was even made, we are aware of the reactions of our actions. Sometimes it's quick to lose perspective of the whole background and draw conclusions without knowing the full background, and what can you after all, nobody can truly know everything.

I would have preferred if this thread was done privately in a private message to me for example. Some staff members feel very uncomfortable with public appeals to player emotions. I'm always available trough my inbox or in the Massive Teamspeak/Skype if anyone wants to discuss matters of a similar nature.

What remains, is that I hope I managed to take away some or all of your concerns towards the Staff. I really want to press and show that we are not some incompetent group of children who take players for granted and treat them as toys. For all communities I have been in for the past 5 years, MassiveCraft sets the standard for professionalism, transparency and objectivity, at least in my opinion.
 
At a certain point we all know the staff are just doing whats best for the server, but in certain cases should be more careful on who the launch the ban wagon towards, I personally think that the staff are doing a great job in maintaining the server, but if a player that has been banned were to ask for evidence to reason why they got banned, wouldn't say its a great idea to shut them down and ignore them.
-Prepare for the hate comments togal-
 
togal300 said:
At a certain point we all know the staff are just doing whats best for the server, but in certain cases should be more careful on who the launch the ban wagon towards, I personally think that the staff are doing a great job in maintaining the server, but if a player that has been banned were to ask for evidence to reason why they got banned, wouldn't say its a great idea to shut them down and ignore them.
-Prepare for the hate comments togal-
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Marty already stated the evidence was a staff member watching the fight in vanish mode, and seeing blatant hacks.
 
thor5648 said:
Marty already stated the evidence was a staff member watching the fight in vanish mode, and seeing blatant hacks.
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Simpily "watching" does not give enough evidence to ban a person, we all have to admit massivecraft if a laggy server and laggy servers do intend to show some dodgy stuff.
 
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togal300 said:
Simpily "watching" does not give enough evidence to ban a person, we all have to admit massivecraft if a laggy server and laggy servers do intend t show some dodgy stuff.
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Then take that up with the server staff I guess? I agree it is laggy and does sometimes show as you said, dodgy things, but at the same time I do not know if they went invis and maybe got hit by the apparent force field or maybe just saw the players hitting two people at once... I am in no real position to really argue about the fairness of their ban, as I have little to no information as to exactly what got them banned besides hacks.
 
MonMarty said:
I would have preferred if this thread was done privately in a private message to me for example. Some staff members feel very uncomfortable with public appeals to player emotions. I'm always available trough my inbox or in the Massive Teamspeak/Skype if anyone wants to discuss matters of a similar nature.
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I will therefore take this up in a private conversation, but as stated earlier there were reasons as to why it was posted here. Reasons which I would be happy to explain in private.
 
togal300 said:
Simpily "watching" does not give enough evidence to ban a person, we all have to admit massivecraft if a laggy server and laggy servers do intend t show some dodgy stuff.
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Very true, which is why the watching thing isn't employed much. Luckily, I've been assured by the staff in question that this most recent case was clear as day with regards to forcefield and what not. I mean, I don't know much about it since I've never really banned anyone for using cheats, but these people have been on others's heads with regards to hacking for more than a year, so I assume they know what they are looking for.
 
While we are on the awkward and touchy topic of staff bias and hackers, I thought it would be appropriate to ask why staff that watch people suspected of hacking do not have to record them watching the hacker? That would further help remove bias and abuse. I am stating absolutely no names since I am not referring to a single case at all, I mean all cases of players that have been watched by staff.
 
Joshy54100 said:
While we are on the awkward and touchy topic of staff bias and hackers, I thought it would be appropriate to ask why staff that watch people suspected of hacking do not have to record them watching the hacker? That would further help remove bias and abuse. I am stating absolutely no names since I am not referring to a single case at all, I mean all cases of players that have been watched by staff.
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The main reason we have players record is so we can see the damage being dealt out during the fight, how fast and hard damage is being dealt, etc. Typically if a staff member is to watch a fight we still ask a player fighting to record. Sometimes, if we are looking for certain hacked clients with obvious movements that go with them, this is less necessary. Furthermore, seldom will a single staff member watch a fight; we have a general rule that more than one knowledgeable staff should attend to watch so that we have multiple points of view. Unless the staff highly experienced in studying hacked clients are there, it is unlikely we will act unless the hacked client is very obvious when watching a fight. We take hacking/hacked client use very seriously but we do certainly take steps to not ban unless we are very conclusive that someone is hacking.
 
MonMarty said:
Very true, which is why the watching thing isn't employed much. Luckily, I've been assured by the staff in question that this most recent case was clear as day with regards to forcefield and what not. I mean, I don't know much about it since I've never really banned anyone for using cheats, but these people have been on others's heads with regards to hacking for more than a year, so I assume they know what they are looking for.
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Well it is true that thouse people were hacking before, but the possibilities of them hacking now has been lowered, once caught it will destroy their confidence into brining a hack client into PvP.
Joshy54100 said:
While we are on the awkward and touchy topic of staff bias and hackers, I thought it would be appropriate to ask why staff that watch people suspected of hacking do not have to record them watching the hacker? That would further help remove bias and abuse. I am stating absolutely no names since I am not referring to a single case at all, I mean all cases of players that have been watched by staff.
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Agreed, it would be nice if the staff could record videos.
Omnomivore said:
The main reason we have players record is so we can see the damage being dealt out during the fight, how fast and hard damage is being dealt, etc. Typically if a staff member is to watch a fight we still ask a player fighting to record. Sometimes, if we are looking for certain hacked clients with obvious movements that go with them, this is less necessary. Furthermore, seldom will a single staff member watch a fight; we have a general rule that more than one knowledgeable staff should attend to watch so that we have multiple points of view. Unless the staff highly experienced in studying hacked clients are there, it is unlikely we will act unless the hacked client is very obvious when watching a fight. We take hacking/hacked client use very seriously but we do certainly take steps to not ban unless we are very conclusive that someone is hacking.
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Well first off the trait plugin has been implimented, there are always tiny bugs here and there and could possibily leak into PvP, normally if a person were to record 'hacks' there will be 2-5 videos of strong evidence, a staff member with a terrible TPS = Instant ban.
 
In my nooby days of Minecraft I used a hacked client, I admit it, and this was about 6 months before I joined MassiveCraft for the first time, I thought that using whatever hacked client I used wouldn't really do any harm, but after the months, after I had joined a few faction servers I realized that it was wrong and I asked myself "Why? If it doesn't do good why use it?" So I stopped.

In my time at MassiveCraft I would never dare to use a hacked client, mainly because of all the friends that I've gotten from my time here in, and I think that Assembly would say the same, this such and addictive server that when I'm going to play Minecraft I just say that I'm gonna play MassiveCraft, I wouldn't really play Minecraft if I was banned from here, it is such a great community of players, even tho 60% of them are a bit harsh 99.9% of the time (not including the mods) this will always be my favorite hobby.

(@togal300 , @MonMarty)
 
I personally believe /vanish mode and video is not proper evidence. To prove my point I will use the boat glitch. The boat is an entity of the server. The boat and the server are the same. A person who has connected to the server though is not the same as the server. This causes boats and players to be in locations that can sometimes be several chunks apart.

If we apply what I just stated about the boat glitch to pvp we can see 4 parties involved. The server, combatant A, combatant B, and the vanished staff. The server knows where all 4 are, but due to varying connection speeds to the server the other 3 parties can see 3 different views of the event.
 
Sarge_Peppers said:
I personally believe /vanish mode and video is not proper evidence. To prove my point I will use the boat glitch. The boat is an entity of the server. The boat and the server are the same. A person who has connected to the server though is not the same as the server. This causes boats and players to be in locations that can sometimes be several chunks apart.

If we apply what I just stated about the boat glitch to pvp we can see 4 parties involved. The server, combatant A, combatant B, and the vanished staff. The server knows where all 4 are, but due to varying connection speeds to the server the other 3 parties can see 3 different views of the event.
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Sarge you may want to try to talk to Marty in ts or something before you implore exactly how the admin saw the hacks. For all we know they may have seen the player hitting 2-3 players at once with no skull split, or they may have went up behind them and got hit by it.
 
thor5648 said:
Sarge you may want to try to talk to Marty in ts or something before you implore exactly how the admin saw the hacks. For all we know they may have seen the player hitting 2-3 players at once with no skull split, or they may have went up behind them and got hit by it.
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I am not debating anything about how others were banned. I am only stating the simple point that only the server knows the exact moves of other people.
 
jquaile said:
Throughout my time on Massivecraft I have (I'd like to think) been part of the pvp community. In many factions and with lots of different people. For the entire time people have been punished for varying things, including myself. Flaming, hacking, glitching etc are the standard reasons for punishment. Until a few months ago I had no issues with the system despite close friends of mine being banned.

A quick story now for those who may not know. In massivecraft pvp there are two very clear sides. Magnanimus and their allies versus a smaller group consisting largely of Raptum, LakewoodMercs and Chronikatr. This is essentially a conflict that has been going on for far longer with some changes in faction names and a few side changes. However things changed recently, a large number of staff became more directly involved with one side, Magnanimus. This is not a problem as staff are obviously players in their own right and this is fine. The vast majority of the time I agree with decisions made.

However human nature I believe inevitably plays a part, despite best intentions. Personally it seems to me this has slowly come through in decisions made. The punishments given out seen to vary in severity at least in some part depending on which side someone is on. I understand past offences etc also take a part but nonetheless it still seems this way. If we look at people banned for hacking over the last few months due to pvp I think most have been fighting against Magnanimus. Has anyone in Magnanimus been banned for hacking? No. Perhaps this is correct and everyone who hacks is on one side but this does not seem right to me. I'll be clear, I'm not saying these people were not hacking just that it's strange they're all against Magnanimus. They also tend to be those who're the most effective in fighting Magnanimus.

This can also be seen in more minor punishments I believe. I know for a fact that someone against Magnanimus said "Magnanimus" in general and was muted. Fair enough if of course this was applied consistently, however it does not seem to be. Things such as "Raptum come to Mag for erp", "Pizza delivery for Raptum", "Feel free to leave your trash here, we'll take your members" nothing seems to happen past a warning.

There has also been a case of a certain player's ban appeal seemingly being ignored for some time. They made their appeal and it took over a month to be answered. A backlog of appeals perhaps? But others who made their appeals later were answered and unbanned. Again this person was someone who fought Magnanimus and their appeal was looked at by someone who is now in Magnanimus. I understand staff are expected to be unbiased and largely they are but this does not seem right. That staff involved in a war as players are then able to make staff decisions that could well affect they outcome of said war.

The problem then of course being that most the staff are on one side, this has led to almost everyone against Magnanimus feeling under pressure. There is a sense that if you do not record every fight you could get banned. On both sides people are sometimes accused of hacks. However when a majority of staff are fighting actively against you it feels like you're at greater risk. I certainly feel that way and so do others. Is this fun? No. Not everyone has a computer that can handle pvp and recording at the same time. So you say if you don't hack you have nothing to worry about. Perhaps, but people have been wrongly accused and banned before. Massivecraft may be advertised as "lag free" but most pvpers will say otherwise. This can easily make it appear so that someone is hacking from another's view.

I am aware that pvp in general still has a pretty bad reputation so many people may not care about this. Particularly as this is coming from Raptum and myself who I know have a pretty poor reputation for several reasons. I understand that, but consider if this was you and your friends on the server in this position. You are unwilling to do what you want to do due to the fact that friends are being banned around you. A large number of staff are opposed to you and still are able to make staff decisions towards you. How would you feel?

This is not directed at any one person in particular. It is a general feeling by a good amount of relatively long time players that things have reached a tipping point. I simply put myself forward to make this thread and the others agreed.

Evidence will be posted below of some of these things mentioned.

Please refrain from flaming as I understand the huge potential for flame on this thread. I have tried to get people I know to not flame on here and hopefully they will not. It would be appreciated if this was reciprocated. I also ask this is not instantly locked due to possible flame because it contains important issues for many people. Opinions are welcome so long as they're valid and are not purely flame or based on the fact this is coming from Raptum and co/myself.

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ok, im not picking any sides, but it sounds like you are just posting this because you are from raptum, sounds biased from you to, but i get your point
 
I agree with you sarge. Its an online game. This means that people may have better connection and/or better computer than others. It also means that there can be latency or 2 people can have different views of whats happening as you stated. Using /vanish to see if someone is hacking is not the good way to go. Maybe get a better "hack" plugin like the one that they have on a well known pvp server. Cause there is way too many things that can affect pvp and how you see whats happening like tps, fps, your ping and many other things.
 
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The only reason I am not banned for autoclicking from another server that I play on a lot is the much improved, custom version of NoCheat they have developed. That plugin shows to the staff that have watched me statistics and other things that all clearly say I am not autoclicking, I just click fast. Also, it will notify when a player hits two or more players in less than a humanly possible time, etc. This server has even said it was willing to share it with other servers, it might be good to take a look in to.
 
I'm just gona make this post since I feel its a good example of the staff handling an unban request.

A little bit ago (a few days to a week) my faction (me and greywarror) were raiding Oerba to save their souls from evil (or something like that.) Part way through that raid Greywarror was banned for mailing erp content to staff. He didn't, and still doesn't know how to use the mail system, and wasn't fully sure what erp was. I contacted staff both on the forums and via mail. We then crashed as it was late (like 2 am or something stupid like that). The next day they responded rapidly, not only admitting that a mistake had been made but fixing the unban and apologizing for the entire issue. I had accidentally tried to contact them via the incorrect means, but they did correct me and did so kindly. The entire process took half a day if that, and the entire time I felt that the staff were looking out for me, and more importantly for my members.

In my experience, our staff are some of the most effective and kindest souls around, and anytime I have interacted with them they have been extremely helpful and understanding (except for a few times when I was being a dick about something, and even then they were still being nice about it.) While I can understand where this thread is coming from (I have been on both ends of this kind of conduct on other servers) I feel that our staff here work hard to remain unbiased and reach the best outcome for all parties. There responses to this thread alone are a testament to their good intentions, as they could've replied extremely nastily and been justified.

Take this post as you wish, I felt it necessary.
 
Thalan79 said:
I'm just gona make this post since I feel its a good example of the staff handling an unban request.

A little bit ago (a few days to a week) my faction (me and greywarror) were raiding Oerba to save their souls from evil (or something like that.) Part way through that raid Greywarror was banned for mailing erp content to staff. He didn't, and still doesn't know how to use the mail system, and wasn't fully sure what erp was. I contacted staff both on the forums and via mail. We then crashed as it was late (like 2 am or something stupid like that). The next day they responded rapidly, not only admitting that a mistake had been made but fixing the unban and apologizing for the entire issue. I had accidentally tried to contact them via the incorrect means, but they did correct me and did so kindly. The entire process took half a day if that, and the entire time I felt that the staff were looking out for me, and more importantly for my members.

In my experience, our staff are some of the most effective and kindest souls around, and anytime I have interacted with them they have been extremely helpful and understanding (except for a few times when I was being a dick about something, and even then they were still being nice about it.) While I can understand where this thread is coming from (I have been on both ends of this kind of conduct on other servers) I feel that our staff here work hard to remain unbiased and reach the best outcome for all parties. There responses to this thread alone are a testament to their good intentions, as they could've replied extremely nastily and been justified.

Take this post as you wish, I felt it necessary.
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Understood and yes most of the time you're right but what faction are you in?
 
jquaile said:
Understood and yes most of the time you're right but what faction are you in?
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We are in Cecidit, a faction that tries not to (but since I am a smart ass periodically does) annoy larger factions. Again, I understand where you are coming from. On one of the first servers I was a part of (back in beta 1.3) I was part of a group of players that regularly attacked others. The staff hated us and it seemed like the were punishing and banning us illegitimately. I have also been staff on a server (during the best minecraft version ever beta 1.7.3) and was accused of doing the same while I was only doing my job.

I can understand this kind of view can occur, and I was only attempting to give my two-cents on the matter.
 
I'm actually proud of everyone who participated in this discussion. It's a touchy subject and there isn't a bit of flame to be seen. I'm genuinely surprised.
 
ShadowShy said:
I'm actually proud of everyone who participated in this discussion. It's a touchy subject and there isn't a bit of flame to be seen. I'm genuinely surprised.
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Because they were just trying to express what they thought, I don't think they ever intended it to be flame
 
Joshy54100 said:
The only reason I am not banned for autoclicking from another server that I play on a lot is the much improved, custom version of NoCheat they have developed. That plugin shows to the staff that have watched me statistics and other things that all clearly say I am not autoclicking, I just click fast. Also, it will notify when a player hits two or more players in less than a humanly possible time, etc. This server has even said it was willing to share it with other servers, it might be good to take a look in to.
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They aren't planning on sharing it with anyone, Sadly I already asked archy :,(
 
I heard that they were selling the plugin to other servers
 
I dont know but its an amazing version of the no cheat plugin that tells you everything like if someone is clicking way too fast or making too much damage it gets flagged and a lot more. I dont really know this plugin but i know for sure that this is the best way to tell if someome is hacking or not cause theres no human judgement involve if youre hacking you get flagged and if not then nothing happens.
 
Nah they won't give it out. You will see lots of big name pvp servers have similar ones though.
 
even if they did give it out it would be pointless because it would not be sharding compatible. If you want you can suggest an in-house plugin be made, but if you are going to suggest one. I recommend being very thorough in you suggestion.
 
Problably cause its one of the best no cheat plug in ive ever seen but massive has to do something with cause this is getting out of hand. A ridiculous amount of player that got banned for hacking while they we're not even hacking at all. This is ruinning the pvp experience on massive and this is why I will just stop pvping here and i'd recommand all my friends and allies to do the same.
 
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