Apparent Discrepancies In The Treatment Of Some Factions Compared To Others

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Problably cause its one of the best no cheat plug in ive ever seen but massive has to do something with cause this is getting out of hand. A ridiculous amount of player that got banned for hacking while they we're not even hacking at all. This is ruinning the pvp experience on massive and this is why I will just stop pvping here and i'd recommand all my friends and allies to do the same.

It is kind of like when you are driving the speed limit, but when you pass a cop you still slow down to 5 under.
 
I like the idea of an in-house plugin that monitors player actions from the servers point of view and flags anything that humans can't do would be a great addition to the MassiveCraft Plugin Pile.
 
I like the idea of an in-house plugin that monitors player actions from the servers point of view and flags anything that humans can't do would be a great addition to the MassiveCraft Plugin Pile.

Already exists, but is not reliable enough to ban people due to false positives. It is currently used in combination with the Human element.
 
I dont know but its an amazing version of the no cheat plugin that tells you everything like if someone is clicking way too fast or making too much damage it gets flagged and a lot more. I dont really know this plugin but i know for sure that this is the best way to tell if someome is hacking or not cause theres no human judgement involve if youre hacking you get flagged and if not then nothing happens.
Yeah, so far, every single person that has been banned for using a hack or autoclicker on that server has actually used it, it is an amazing plugin.
 
Yeah, so far, every single person that has been banned for using a hack or autoclicker on that server has actually used it, it is an amazing plugin.
Yeah totally. So if you add thia awesome plugin to a real lag free server and a staff thats almost everything about pvp cause they practice it almost every single day it decrease by almost 90% the chance of being banned for nothing. The only reason why there is 10% left is cause of the human nature. The best exemple would be the cops cause lots of them do their job well but some of them are corrupted. But lets say that you think that someone might be using forcefield finding it out on the well know pvp server is pretty easy first cause of the no cheat plug in but its also cause there is absolutely no lag compared to here with all the random tps drop and all the latency involved makes it really harder except if the person is dumb enough to use a ridiculous hitting range.
 
Yeah totally. So if you add thia awesome plugin to a real lag free server and a staff thats almost everything about pvp cause they practice it almost every single day it decrease by almost 90% the chance of being banned for nothing. The only reason why there is 10% left is cause of the human nature. The best exemple would be the cops cause lots of them do their job well but some of them are corrupted. But lets say that you think that someone might be using forcefield finding it out on the well know pvp server is pretty easy first cause of the no cheat plug in but its also cause there is absolutely no lag compared to here with all the random tps drop and all the latency involved makes it really harder except if the person is dumb enough to use a ridiculous hitting range.

-You can't use a "ridiculous" hit range. [http://hypixel.net/threads/myth-busting-what-can-hacked-clients-really-do.25555/]

-Lag can replicate some things that may appear as KillAura. However, I feel that watching a player, crosschecking NCP alerts, and video evidence are a very good basis for determining if a player is hacking.
 
Can we see the proof that King and Ass were hacking? At least that...

@MonMarty stated that doing so would A) allow the friends to raid the person who reported them off the server and B) potentially revealed the methods used, so future hackers could overcome them easier. This is why he said no.
 
The only judgement really needed is already done, it's already been gone over, it's been proven already. Just accept they've been hacking.

As a player, I must admit that the way they reacted when banned would suggest they where most certainty not hacking. One of them broke down in tears when it occurred, and that's not the behaviour of someone who knew the risks of hacking and was willing to do so. However, having spoken to MonMarty about the system associated with dealing with reported hackers, it's safe to assume that the staff had proven it to beyond reasonable doubt, via both video evidence and first hand seeing in vanish. If you could be slightly less blunt with your reply, I'm sure we would all appreciate it.
 
Yes but as stated the human element is not reliable because varying connection speed.

So you're suggesting we stop banning people who get accused of hacking alltogether?

For the majority of the people banned for hacking, that system triggered on them, and we backed up those trigger with visual evidence trough human element.

If the Human element disappears, we are only left with this system that will result in false positives, not only will the people who have been banned be banned, but also a bunch of innocent people.
 
So you're suggesting we stop banning people who get accused of hacking alltogether?

For the majority of the people banned for hacking, that system triggered on them, and we backed up those trigger with visual evidence trough human element.

If the Human element disappears, we are only left with this system that will result in false positives, not only will the people who have been banned be banned, but also a bunch of innocent people.
He means that we should get a better No cheat plugin, since the one here has given off manymanymanymany false warnings I think, but the one on another server is just ridiculously accurate at telling if you're hacking or glitching or autoclicking.
 
He means that we should get a better No cheat plugin, since the one here has given off manymanymanymany false warnings I think, but the one on another server is just ridiculously accurate at telling if you're hacking or glitching or autoclicking.

I do think that's the reason of the human aspect. If the system triggers, a mod goes to have a look. If it's a false positive then nothing to worry about. If it's a true positive however the mod will notice, and further checks will be made to be sure the hacker is hacking.
 
As a player, I must admit that the way they reacted when banned would suggest they where most certainty not hacking. One of them broke down in tears when it occurred, and that's not the behaviour of someone who knew the risks of hacking and was willing to do so. However, having spoken to MonMarty about the system associated with dealing with reported hackers, it's safe to assume that the staff had proven it to beyond reasonable doubt, via both video evidence and first hand seeing in vanish. If you could be slightly less blunt with your reply, I'm sure we would all appreciate it.
Finally someone who's friends with them, who is actually seeing the other side of the story.
 
He means that we should get a better No cheat plugin, since the one here has given off manymanymanymany false warnings I think, but the one on another server is just ridiculously accurate at telling if you're hacking or glitching or autoclicking.
It is an outstanding plugin they made, but I will say it is not, and will never be entirely fault free.
 
I agree with you sarge. Its an online game. This means that people may have better connection and/or better computer than others. It also means that there can be latency or 2 people can have different views of whats happening as you stated. Using /vanish to see if someone is hacking is not the good way to go. Maybe get a better "hack" plugin like the one that they have on a well known pvp server. Cause there is way too many things that can affect pvp and how you see whats happening like tps, fps, your ping and many other things.
I personally would have to agree with this and while i have not SEEN many people hack from my time playing on bad lion you can tell when someone hacks and usually its something just major and completely obvious. Connection plays into this game a lot as i have a poor one only around 40 ping 1mbs dl and .5mbs upload i have had many instances where my arrows just bounce off people and i can't hit someone at all or even less obvious lag issues that cause me not to use potions correctly or jump or numerous things. So in my eyes i don't see how just "seeing" a so called hack can prove someone is hacking there are a lot of different factors that could possibly make one look like they are hacking. Personally i have been accused of aim bot because i am good with a bow and can shoot around corners almost and can shoot over stuff. And just stating i am not saying anyone was or wasn't hacking or that any of the staff were wrong I'm just expressing my opinions on it and how the watching for hacks operates in my eyes.

Also I would agree that it "seems" that the game staff that deal with the wars and stuff do tend to pick so to say on raptum and their allies more and that mag does get away with some at least minor things that raptum and co are prosecuted for.

Again just my personal opinions on the matter not accusing anyone of anything as i haven't seen a lot of the stuff that has gone on just simply herd it from a lot of people and from a few things in my experience.
 
He means that we should get a better No cheat plugin, since the one here has given off manymanymanymany false warnings I think, but the one on another server is just ridiculously accurate at telling if you're hacking or glitching or autoclicking.

Don't you think we'd be having such a plugin if it existed...
 
Don't you think we'd be having such a plugin if it existed...
It does exist, that's why everyone was saying it's on another server, since they have it. Since Sigil already said the server name, I'll just say that Badlion is the server that has the plugin, their coders Archybot and MasterGBerry coded it.
 
Ya it's closed source and they do not share any of their plugins.
 
So you're suggesting we stop banning people who get accused of hacking alltogether?

For the majority of the people banned for hacking, that system triggered on them, and we backed up those trigger with visual evidence trough human element.

If the Human element disappears, we are only left with this system that will result in false positives, not only will the people who have been banned be banned, but also a bunch of innocent people.

So what you are suggesting is that two false positives can prove a positive?
 
I will start by stating my point of view. I agree with majority of what was said in the original post. I think it is a fact that Raptum's side gets punished for things that Magnanimus gets away with but in my opinion this isn't a huge deal as the offences and punishments are usually very minor. However, recently I experienced a situation that involved staff members from Magnanimus picking sides and it was a very bad experience. Without giving any names, to sum it up what happened was me and a few friends were defending their faction from Magnanimus. Because of my particularly good performance that day I got messaged by a staff member from Magnanimus saying I was hacking. His evidence was the new no cheat plugin which is being used on MassiveCraft with his own experience fighting me. The main arguement was that I was doing higher damage output than I should have been which was true but because of reasons I am not familiar with (maybe traits bug?) The next day I was fighting again but in Magnanimus' territory where they had the 30 percent defence buff and I knew exactly what they were talking about. Everyone was doing a lot of damage but I was the person takig it because I didn't have the defence bonus that I had the day before. I died 10 times that day only. This stopped a couple days later though. Two days later I was raiding Magnanimus with a friend of mine and we managed to get inside their base with several methods but again, I got messaged by staff members from Magnanimus first saying something along the lines of "You glitching now?.." I told them I wasn't but I did not want to tell them how we got in because they would go and block the places up. When I refused to tell them how we got in I got messaged again this time saying something along the lines of "since you are not telling us how you got in that proves that it wasnt legit". Now this is a hard situation because clearly the staff are involved first hand in the situation. This isnt to say they are biased though. Guess What im trying to say is that its hard to co operate and trust staff members who are playing on the opposite side. This is normal because we are all human and we can't always control ourselves. The situation was resolved when I requested an admin who wasn't involved. So to sum it up I think the majority of the staff of MassiveCraft are mature and do a good job of moderating the server. I agree that staff should be able to play the game too but I think they shouldn't take part in competitive activities such as pvp because those are what have the most impact on one's behaviour and actions.

PS: Yeah human aspect may not be reliable and plugins certainly make mistakes. Also lag can create illusions but if we just say that everything is unreliable no one would be banned now. My opinion is that even if staff are watching in /vanish they should also record and any and all evidence should be public so people do not need to create threads like this. I don't believe Assembly and Killingking were hacking. In fact I am sure %99 they werent but its still a possibility that we shouldn't overlook. However we all should have the right to see the evidence behind their bans. If the staff start showing evidence there would be no bias accusations on bans either.
 
If the staff start showing evidence there would be no bias accusations on bans either.
Or if the staff start showing evidence it'll just prompt harassment against the person who recorded. You might say that you won't attack someone based on what they recorded, but we can't guarantee that for every other player on MassiveCraft. Not showing evidence involved in the punishment of a player is the smartest thing to do.
 
Two days later I was raiding Magnanimus with a friend of mine and we managed to get inside their base with several methods but again, I got messaged by staff members from Magnanimus first saying something along the lines of "You glitching now?.."

This is what you did to get into our base... You pearled into a gold block, which glitched you onto the halfslab. You then jumped on the portal to go through. Looks pretty glitchy.
3uD5Aas.png
 
I agree that staff should be able to play the game too but I think they shouldn't take part in competitive activities such as pvp because those are what have the most impact on one's behaviour and actions.
This topic was already discussed before on another thread, but was quickly shot down with flame and eventually locked & deleted. Though the idea was the same, the reasoning for it is different from what you stated.
 
This is what you did to get into our base... You pearled into a gold block, which glitched you onto the halfslab. You then jumped on the portal to go through. Looks pretty glitchy.
3uD5Aas.png
Actually, I pearled onto the half slab which put me through the portal. Funny how you are explaining what I did. The reason we felt the need to create this thread was because of behaviour like this which you are displaying right now. If you can't keep yourself from making this personal then its a shame. Im not here to argue with you though. Im actually hoping this thread can get some issues resolved.
 
Or if the staff start showing evidence it'll just prompt harassment against the person who recorded. You might say that you won't attack someone based on what they recorded, but we can't guarantee that for every other player on MassiveCraft. Not showing evidence involved in the punishment of a player is the smartest thing to do.
Can you elaborate more on that? I dont see how someone would harass a player for recording another player hacking. In fact I think it would be the opposite and the hacker would get crap given to him, which I think is fair enough.
 
Actually, I pearled onto the half slab which put me through the portal. Funny how you are explaining what I did. The reason we felt the need to create this thread was because of behaviour like this which you are displaying right now. If you can't keep yourself from making this personal then its a shame. Im not here to argue with you though. Im actually hoping this thread can get some issues resolved.
Couldnt have said it better
 
Can you elaborate more on that? I dont see how someone would harass a player for recording another player hacking. In fact I think it would be the opposite and the hacker would get crap given to him, which I think is fair enough.
Or the friends of the hacker begin to harass and raid the person who recorded them with the mentality that if said person hadn't been recording, their friend wouldn't be banned. It could really go either way, but I expect it to be the latter with most. And I honestly don't believe that if you're friend was recorded hacking, and you saw the video, that you would chew him out.
 
Actually, I pearled onto the half slab which put me through the portal.
After several attempts to re-create this we deemed it not possible. You would always land on the half-slab, be glitched inside the gold block and have to jump to go through the portal.

Now, another thing I wanted to touch on: This thread, to my observation, seems very one sided. We have the Raptum, LakewoodMercs and Chronikatr members, who are all arguing against the decision that has been made and are backing each others statements. On the other side we have the members of Magnanimus, who are basically doing the same except agreeing with the decision that have been made. And here and there a few neutral parties offering their opinions. But this will not work. You are all trying to accuse people of being biased while you are being biased yourselves. If you want something done, allow the players to sort it out themselves. Don't backseat the situation as it's going to get us absolutely nowhere.
 
Or the friends of the hacker begin to harass and raid the person who recorded them with the mentality that if said person hadn't been recording, their friend wouldn't be banned. It could really go either way, but I expect it to be the latter with most. And I honestly don't believe that if you're friend was recorded hacking, and you saw the video, that you would chew him out.
I would lose respect for him, and he wouldnt be a friend of mine anymore.
 
After several attempts to re-create this we deemed it not possible. You would always land on the half-slab, be glitched inside the gold block and have to jump to go through the portal.
The thing is, you dont need to jump into a portal or anything. As long as you stand on the block that is at the top of the portal frame u get teleported. That half slab is the top block so as long as we touch it we get teleported.
 
After several attempts to re-create this we deemed it not possible. You would always land on the half-slab, be glitched inside the gold block and have to jump to go through the portal.

Now, another thing I wanted to touch on: This thread, to my observation, seems very one sided. We have the Raptum, LakewoodMercs and Chronikatr members, who are all arguing against the decision that has been made and are backing each others statements. On the other side we have the members of Magnanimus, who are basically doing the same except agreeing with the decision that have been made. And here and there a few neutral parties offering their opinions. But this will not work. You are all trying to accuse people of being biased while you are being biased yourselves. If you want something done, allow the players to sort it out themselves. Don't backseat the situation as it's going to get us absolutely nowhere.
The main issue in the thread is not what you're talking about. Perhaps we could have a response about the basic issue instead of that incident.
 
Actually, I pearled onto the half slab which put me through the portal. Funny how you are explaining what I did. The reason we felt the need to create this thread was because of behaviour like this which you are displaying right now. If you can't keep yourself from making this personal then its a shame. Im not here to argue with you though. Im actually hoping this thread can get some issues resolved.
I take no personal offense to what you say, and there's nothing wrong with my behavior. However, what you did is glitching; which is against the rules. I'm sorry if it just proves something that you're trying to say is untrue and irrelevant, but the facts are that you did glitch, and you just explained how you did it. Questionable behavior like glitching is what will prompt us to take action against enemies and other players alike. Additionally, there is no special treatment within my faction. If I see a member doing questionable activities, I will investigate, place a ban request, or ban them on the spot based on severity. If you don't believe me, just /seen NorthMC. He was a good PvP'r, and a good member, but rules are rules. Whether someone is a member or not is irrelevant in regards to upholding my responsibility as staff.
 
After several attempts to re-create this we deemed it not possible. You would always land on the half-slab, be glitched inside the gold block and have to jump to go through the portal.

Now, another thing I wanted to touch on: This thread, to my observation, seems very one sided. We have the Raptum, LakewoodMercs and Chronikatr members, who are all arguing against the decision that has been made and are backing each others statements. On the other side we have the members of Magnanimus, who are basically doing the same except agreeing with the decision that have been made. And here and there a few neutral parties offering their opinions. But this will not work. You are all trying to accuse people of being biased while you are being biased yourselves. If you want something done, allow the players to sort it out themselves. Don't backseat the situation as it's going to get us absolutely nowhere.
I am neutral in this matter considering that I have been absent from the server for such a long time.

"You are all trying to accuse people of being biased while you are being biased yourselves."
Yes, they are biased, biased players. This is what makes the difference, when someone gets admin powers/mod powers being biased turns from something natural that everyone expects to something that should not be there.

I would not trust a judge that owns one of the football teams in the match.

(Note, this was just to explain why people are complaining about staff being biased, I don't know if any of you are.)
 
I take no personal offense to what you say, and there's nothing wrong with my behavior. However, what you did is glitching; which is against the rules. I'm sorry if it just proves something that you're trying to say is untrue and irrelevant, but the facts are that you did glitch, and you just explained how you did it. Questionable behavior like glitching is what will prompt us to take action against enemies and other players alike. Additionally, there is no special treatment within my faction. If I see a member doing questionable activities, I will investigate, place a ban request, or ban them on the spot based on severity. If you don't believe me, just /seen NorthMC. He was a good PvP'r, and a good member, but rules are rules. Whether someone is a member or not is irrelevant in regards to upholding my responsibility as staff.
As I said, im not here to argue with you.
 
I think this thread has gone on long enough.

My responses to the concerns are stated in the earlier pages, it seems the rest of the following replies are simply beating a dead horse. My messages should have been adequate by now to prove and or assure anyone that the concerns put forward, while concerning, are simply based off assumptions and general opinions created from not knowing everything.

If anyone has further questions, pop them to me in Teamspeak or Forum.
 
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