Archived 30% Defensive Buff Discussion

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BenRekt

BenRekt

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As the title suggests, this post is about the 30% buff defenders receive whilst inside their own faction territory. Although a post concerning this "issue" has been brought up and created several times, I believe it has been a while since the 30% Damage Reduction in home faction territory has been brought up, or even discussed. As a PvPer myself, the 30% buff defenders receive in their own faction territory has always been over powered, discouraging raiding, as well as making anyone who is remotely good at running or healing close to invincible. I know I am not the only person who feels with way. After many other discussions with other active PvPers on Massive, I believe most experienced veterans believe the 30% Buff is harmful to the PvP community, as it allows less skilled players to triumph over people who are much more skilled than them, which in my opinion, should rarely ever be the case.

I would like to go back on what the title says, and state that I am not looking for a removal, not at all, only a reduction, to around 10-15%. Or have it so the buff is only applies when Pacifist is true, allowing non-PvPers a better chance at escaping their attackers. This will allow a slight defensive buff, but not something as overpowered as taking away nearly 1/3rd of the damage dealt from an opponent.

Just to summarize:

Why I believe the 30% buff requires a reduction

  • Discourages raiding
  • Creates imbalance of skill
  • Encourages players to faction hop to gain the buff
  • Spark point for flame, and hurts community - "Only fighting with the buff"
  • (Will add more points as thread is discussed)
I would like to fully re-iterate, this is mostly my opinion, but this opinion is very well shared by a majority of veteran (and many "non-veteran" players) from the MassiveCraft PvP community. This being said, the staff have always handled the server in an amazing manner, and this thread is to be free of flame or I will have it locked.

Just going to quickly tag people I believe can share their opinion on the subject:
@spoonly @Kidmodo @WU_Walrus @FubeTheMangler @ZIHAMMER1411 @davidn2012 @Wannag @jquaile @thor5648 @Jay Jay @kevencolis @Assembly123 @Killingking777 @Joshy54100 @Waminer @Yoloorange @wafflecash @Asmodeus35 @MazzerDK @MagicalWetToast @YankeeGiant8013 @qgmk

I am also going to ask that if you strongly agree with my opinion as well, that you change your status to this:
http://forums.massivecraft.com/forums/feature-idea-discussion.29/create-thread
In hopes of getting more opinions and feedback.
 
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Mecharic said:
One of my big arguments against this is that the ENTIRE purpose of the 30% damage reduction in your own territory is to give defenders an advantage. It doesn't matter if it disbalances PvP (which is already very disbalanced) because that is what it is supposed to do.

Another is the money argument: RPers aren't as wealthy as PvPers and need literally every advantage possible in combat.

The last is that if you PvPers don't like the buff they shouldn't raid. ftr, this is a parody of everyone who says "just surrender".
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Defenders already have an infinite number of advantages. Besides being able to mold the land scape, they can make traps, contact allies and get them straight to the fight and run inside if they are close to death. What I've been noticing is everyone disagreeing is not really a PvPer, the only contact they have with PvP is when someone raids them and they have to run inside.

Also, about money, weapons and god armor: It simply isn't that hard to get. With traits and beacons you can easily train your stats, as well as earn money and levels of xp in the process. An argument to this point would be you don't have access to a darkroom - but if your anyone who actually has allies, you've probably got a darkroom you can use. A second argument is that people do not have the time. If you don't have the time literally all you have to do is contact the enemies of the players raiding you, and they will most likely make a portal and come help you within a few minutes.
 
BenAlex144 said:
Defenders already have an infinite number of advantages. Besides being able to mold the land scape, they can make traps, contact allies and get them straight to the fight and run inside if they are close to death. What I've been noticing is everyone disagreeing is not really a PvPer, the only contact they have with PvP is when someone raids them and they have to run inside.

Also, about money, weapons and god armor: It simply isn't that hard to get. With traits and beacons you can easily train your stats, as well as earn money and levels of xp in the process. An argument to this point would be you don't have access to a darkroom - but if your anyone who actually has allies, you've probably got a darkroom you can use. A second argument is that people do not have the time. If you don't have the time literally all you have to do is contact the enemies of the players raiding you, and they will most likely make a portal and come help you within a few minutes.
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I'm aware of defender bonuses (and I love them all) and I've said before that I like a pacitrue/pacifaulse connected system.

With regards to money, you are looking at it from a PvPer perspective. For a PvPer getting money is a simple as spending a few hours in a Darkroom or raiding some other faction for the tribute. For an RPer its noticiably more difficult, since they don't enjoy darkrooming, lack the stats to mow down dozens of mobs, and honestly just spend their time doing things they consider more fun, like building, roleplaying or just chatting. PvPers need to learn to respect those aspects of the server, rather than demanding everyone operate like they do.
 
Seeing all the arguments here... Some things make me want to cry. xD

Just gonna say one more thing:
The people who don't like the buff are people whom are experienced with PvP, but can't find a way around a small buff.
Here's a way around it: don't fight on their land or don't fight.
Raiding is meant for people whom like to be strategic, not for noobs with high mcmmo, god equip, and better fps (not that they shouldn't raid, but they should at least try to be strategic. Not trying to call you all noobs though. Being a noob is more of a mindset). So be strategic.

This is my final post here, but if you reply with feedback I'll be sure to give it a look.

EDIT: this is partially in reply to @Kidmodo
As a response to a response to this post and to stay true to my word of 'this is my last post'.
Use a bow to make them want to come get you, or to deal some extra damage, out number them, strafe, wait until they don't expect you to attack, ally them until the attack then enemy them seconds before, make them fear numbers and attack solo a day later followed up by a large scale attack, etc. @Kidmodo
 
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Kman133 said:
Seeing all the arguments here... Some things make me want to cry. xD

Just gonna say one more thing:
The people who don't like the buff are people whom are experienced with PvP, but can't find a way around a small buff.
Here's a way around it: don't fight on their land or don't fight.
Raiding is meant for people whom like to be strategic, not for noobs with high mcmmo, god equip, and better fps (not that they shouldn't raid, but they should at least try to be strategic. Not trying to call you all noobs though. Being a noob is more of a mindset). So be strategic.

This is my final post here, but if you reply with feedback I'll be sure to give it a look.

EDIT: this is partially in reply to @Kidmodo
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Okay then tell me how to be more strategic in my raids I will take all advice that anyone is willing to give me. But don't say run out of their territory to not have the reduce damage since trust me all pvpers try it but most time people don't leave it since they get 1/3 of the damage reduced and can go into 3v1s with the same damage being delt to them. I will put more later right now I'm on my phone and it's rather annoying to type.
 
Asmodeus35 said:
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Ok so it all started back in VSTC almost 2 and a half years ago when Kapry & Alamut (then called Badru) raided us and killed everyone... <insert long story of steadily disbalanced PvP here> and now we've got this stupid setup where PvPers can butcher people by the dozen and still complain that killing is too hard and should be made easier.

Note: use /seen MasterMachine100 - that is my original account.
 
Mecharic said:
Ok so it all started back in VSTC almost 2 and a half years ago when Kapry & Alamut (then called Badru) raided us and killed everyone... <insert long story of steadily disbalanced PvP here> and now we've got this stupid setup where PvPers can butcher people by the dozen and still complain that killing is too hard and should be made easier.

Note: use /seen MasterMachine100 - that is my original account.
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Correction. PVPers can kill those who don't PVP at all easy, but not kill PVPers of the same skill level due to the buff.

If it's already easy for them, what would removing it do to you?
 
Mecharic said:
Ok so it all started back in VSTC almost 2 and a half years ago when Kapry & Alamut (then called Badru) raided us and killed everyone... <insert long story of steadily disbalanced PvP here> and now we've got this stupid setup where PvPers can butcher people by the dozen and still complain that killing is too hard and should be made easier.

Note: use /seen MasterMachine100 - that is my original account.
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Correction. PVPers can kill those who don't PVP at all easy, but not kill PVPers of the same skill level due to the buff.

If it's already easy for them, what would removing it do to you?
 
BenAlex144 said:
I'm just going to tag everyone who has disagreed with this post, and ask them a simple question.
@tim_gamerdude , @jemoeder2021 @Madus @Brycea1111 -
Do you devote the most of your time on Massive to PvP? and if so - Do you fight without the buff? (aka do you raid others yourselves)
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Yes and yes, I often raid people. I am just non prem right now, which discourages me to pvp. But if we go on a raid I ready my god armor resistance pots and have a buffed defence trait setup. I mean outside of terretory I still pvp great witouth the prem buff even. So yes I spend most of my time pvping and half of it outside terretory (Of course not counting in defending allies, but I do not often switch between faction which aren't: Dardilon Kalahari)
 
BenAlex144 said:
"It is there for a reason" - What reason in particular is that "reason"? I can't really respond to the rest because I cannot understand what point your trying to make / what you are actually saying.
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The reason that non prems can defend themselves in own terretory witouth the 15% buff of premium. Which is still around and makes premium pay to win anyway. So it used to be diamond armor, god diamond armor and god iron armor have a difference of 30% less damage taken. People told me it was that if you want to decently go raid people you might want to consider prem; but in own terretory it is made so it makes no difference.
 
I agree with this completely. It amazes me when me and Wu go into a faction and have trouble taking on two members, then if one of us dies and we step outside into the wilderness we can easily kill both members without any trouble. My oppinion but why make it un-even in the first place? If you dont want to fight then don't. I am open minded about it, and it is up for discussion. Im just sick of whomever having the 30% always winning.
 
*is as to make money without PvPing because it really isn't hard*

*isnt a great PvPer*

*agrees with the removal of the buff 100%*
 
The issue with removing this is that most PvPers are judging it by the whole "it makes it impossible to win against other PvPers" without remembering that it wasn't really put there to protect people with equal power, but rather to protect people who are weaker. I stand by my original post here that suggested tying the defense buff to a players highest PvP stat and either removing it at once or lowering it over time to 0%. That way people who don't PvP much still get the buff that balances things out while hardcore PvPers don't get an OP advantage in defense.
 
jemoeder2021 said:
The reason that non prems can defend themselves in own terretory witouth the 15% buff of premium. Which is still around and makes premium pay to win anyway. So it used to be diamond armor, god diamond armor and god iron armor have a difference of 30% less damage taken. People told me it was that if you want to decently go raid people you might want to consider prem; but in own terretory it is made so it makes no difference.
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I still can't understand what your trying to say at all. Unless your trying to say diamond armor, god armor and god iron armor all block the same amount of damage...
 
My initial thought of the 30% Defense Buff
We can all agree that fighting in MassiveCraft is significantly different than any other place. The Factions plugin in MassiveCraft does not allow raiding players to unclaim underpowered factions. In my opinion this feature alone can go without the 30% Defense Buff because there is no direct threat of losing a faction claim.

On MassiveCraft there is no threat of losing the blocks placed on faction land so the only real goal of a raid/war is to take your personal things on your character. With the introduction of Traits one can set them self up to be incredibly agile and be able to run away from players who use their traits to Buff up for attacking. If you are going about your business and don't want to fight, then trait yourself for a defensive stance when doing casual things. One that allows you to just "book it" when danger is present. The only real reason one would surrender during a raid is only to stop disrupting game play instead of waiting out the two hour window.

My impression of the 30% Defense Buff
Over time I have seen many fights and read over many threads about how this Buff has grown to become an annoyance in the PvP world. It wasn't until recently when I saw players invite others onto their land wanting to get raided "for a real fight" that I saw how bad it has become.

The PvP dynamics are tilted heavily toward the defensive players who use this Buff. In my opinion players who seek a real fight to show off their PvP skills should not do it over land that gives this buff. It is like tying one arm of an attacker behind their back and basking in the glory of your PvP skill when you kill them. It is a hallucination that many players in the PvP world have grown accustom to and has built up to some false claims of skill and wins. It has even lead to flaming in some cases.

Conclusion
If it was up to me I would keep the 30% Defense Buff to allow a faction the "home field" advantage over an adversary who is trying to truly take something important from a faction... its claimed land. Without this threat I believe there is no need for the 30% Defense Buff. Wether you are a weak or strong player, you will always risk dying and losing stuff in a fight. The reason to have this buff only for weak players is a really bad one in my opinion.
 
I 120% agree with this and it should be implanted, But you talked about defending always having the advantage? Attackers could surprise attack at anytime they want. Therefore not always. But I think it shouldn't be taken away (As you said) just rebuffed abit to 10-15%.
 
DestrousDeus said:
I 120% agree with this and it should be implanted, But you talked about defending always having the advantage? Attackers could surprise attack at anytime they want. Therefore not always. But I think it shouldn't be taken away (As you said) just rebuffed abit to 10-15%.
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Defenders always have an advantage. How can you not agree with that? Defenders can manipulate the landscape, hide behind doors that invading players cannot open, have the 30% buff to retaliate in a stronger stance. I don't see how the defender has no advantage. :/

Surprise attacks alone should not be the sole deal breaker to have this buff, even if rebuffed. I'm sorry but that makes no sense whatsoever.
 
BenAlex144 said:
I still can't understand what your trying to say at all. Unless your trying to say diamond armor, god armor and god iron armor all block the same amount of damage...
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I think that if you put your time in reading you'll probably come up with: 30% more damage is blocked with diamond armor in comparesing with diamond armor and that it used to be that premiums only could wear the diamond armor meaning they had a 30% buff over the non prems and that some staff told me if you wanted to have fair fight that you just had to stay in your own faction.
 
non pvp here with almost 0 xp on the battlefield. my toughts on this for now:
the 30% dmg reduction buff doesn't matter for me that often, it only matters to me when i am 5-6 blocks away from a door because then it means i have /just/ enough time to open it, get in and close it, if further away i could aswel not have it, i'm dead anyway.
 
jemoeder2021 said:
I think that if you put your time in reading you'll probably come up with: 30% more damage is blocked with diamond armor in comparesing with diamond armor and that it used to be that premiums only could wear the diamond armor meaning they had a 30% buff over the non prems and that some staff told me if you wanted to have fair fight that you just had to stay in your own faction.
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Ehm... a source or something? Just... what?
 
jemoeder2021 said:
I think that if you put your time in reading you'll probably come up with: 30% more damage is blocked with diamond armor in comparesing with diamond armor and that it used to be that premiums only could wear the diamond armor meaning they had a 30% buff over the non prems and that some staff told me if you wanted to have fair fight that you just had to stay in your own faction.
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He means "Diamond armor also reduces default damage (without armor) by 30%, so the the 30% defensive reduction is the same as if they have diamond armor on. Back when premiums were the only ones who had diamond it gave them a 30% advantage in battle, so the buff was added to balance it out for non-prems. According to some staff members the only fair fight was in your faction territory."

Disclaimer: I am merely attempting to translate, I do not know if any of this is correct or not. I also don't know the accuracy of the information.
 
dude its unfair that premium gets 15 % off so remove that or i want -30 %
because when a prem,ium raid you he keep his armor so you dont get it and they can stay there and keep there stuff because they need to attack us

So conclusion i want it remove and in the same way not because -15% of damage of premium and i will agree to remove the -30% in land because its way to op -45% to premium when defending like imposibble to raid them and when im building 5 minute in the build i die by some randome dude that i cant defend agenst evan with -30%
 
100 - 200r is like alot to me i got 0R and wen i have it i cant buy armor for myself so i need to remove a big wall of like 500 blocks for 150r...
 
mrhappynicolas2 said:
dude its unfair that premium gets 15 % off so remove that or i want -30 %
because when a prem,ium raid you he keep his armor so you dont get it and they can stay there and keep there stuff because they need to attack us

So conclusion i want it remove and in the same way not because -15% of damage of premium and i will agree to remove the -30% in land because its way to op -45% to premium when defending like imposibble to raid them and when im building 5 minute in the build i die by some randome dude that i cant defend agenst evan with -30%
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Seems like you not have got the point of the whole premium concept/this thread.
1. You are not be able to defend yourself against a premium with protection 4 armor except like 1 team if you were extremely lucky.
2. Being premium is unfair to non premium members because premium is overpowered but that's what that keeps the server running, getting unfair advantages. The staffs even tried to remove these advantages when Mojang's new EULA was created but guess what? Nobody cared about premium anymore because they didn't get unfair advantages only the people who donated because they wanted to keep the server alive (like me) but that was clearly not enough to keep the server running alone. Aka pay to win because humans are greedy.
3. You might want you check up on the raid/war rules if you haven't read those yet to maybe prevent the same people from attacking you all the time.
Conclusion: The buff would not matter to you because you would die anyway (sorry if i hurt your feelings but I take this very seriously.)
 
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Mecharic said:
He means "Diamond armor also reduces default damage (without armor) by 30%, so the the 30% defensive reduction is the same as if they have diamond armor on. Back when premiums were the only ones who had diamond it gave them a 30% advantage in battle, so the buff was added to balance it out for non-prems. According to some staff members the only fair fight was in your faction territory."

Disclaimer: I am merely attempting to translate, I do not know if any of this is correct or not. I also don't know the accuracy of the information.
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Seems totally correct.
 
My observation so far is that the only real argument for keeping the buff is so that people who will already die can run away for a bit longer. It feels like the number of people and the number of arguments for the nerf of the buff far out-weighs the argument for leaving it how it is.
 
BenAlex144 said:
My observation so far is that the only real argument for keeping the buff is so that people who will already die can run away for a bit longer. It feels like the number of people and the number of arguments for the nerf of the buff far out-weighs the argument for leaving it how it is.
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Everyone who disagreed assumes that the buff will save them, want to test that theory tonight?
 
BenAlex144 said:
If all you want to do is flame, get off my thread.
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You shouldn't rate it please read the subject again, after all if you find it flame, which it is not since because we tested it and we won. Anyway if you think you would rate it bad rate it atleast evil or disagree
 
jemoeder2021 said:
You shouldn't rate it please read the subject again, after all if you find it flame, which it is not since because we tested it and we won. Anyway if you think you would rate it bad rate it atleast evil or disagree
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You said wrecked. Ergo flame.

The non-flame would have been this...

We did didn't we? And we won.
 
jemoeder2021 said:
You shouldn't rate it please read the subject again, after all if you find it flame, which it is not since because we tested it and we won. Anyway if you think you would rate it bad rate it atleast evil or disagree
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Actually if you read the body of the post, you would see I said flame will not be tolerated - What you said has no contribution to the thread whatsoever and is only there to spark an arguement.
 
I dunno if this counts as a necro but whatever. I have my own uneducated opinion to throw at people and this seems like a good place to do it judging from what I've just read.

It seems that everyone who is against the change is making an assumption in their examples that they really shouldn't be. They're assuming that the defender wants to fight or has invited and/or reciprocated the aggression of the attackers. The change also makes perfect sense from a roleplay point of view.

If you want to invade someone, you can't just be slightly stronger than them, you have to be significantly stronger with them, otherwise your battles must be fought on neutral ground for both parties to have an equal chance of victory. That seems to be the tangible effect of the 30% damage reduction, and is that really such a horrifying thing? If you're invading someone in their own territory, you're trying to completely destroy them- to conquer them, especially if you think about it in a roleplay sense. This should not be achievable unless they are already worn down or you are on a completely different level in terms of combat stats/items. If you're mad at someone, you shouldn't be able to just march into their faction and kill them if they're of a similar level to you, that's just not how it works, and it's not how it should work either. Battling someone in the desert somewhere in the middle of nowhere should be an even fight, running into someone's fortified town by yourself and getting upset when they have the advantage is just stupid.

Someone in this thread came up with a fantastic meme, about how people who support the damage reduction have no pvp experience. (It was just hilarious) That seems kind of silly, I don't know about any of you, but a year or so ago, raiding a weaker faction meant running in, getting one suprise kill and standing around hoping they'd leave their houses for a few hours while taunting them in global. These factions had no way of fighting back and to even try would just mean instant death. With this system however even the newer players have a chance and the older players aren't able to completely dominate whoever they want.
 
Mecharic said:
One of my big arguments against this is that the ENTIRE purpose of the 30% damage reduction in your own territory is to give defenders an advantage. It doesn't matter if it disbalances PvP (which is already very disbalanced) because that is what it is supposed to do.

Another is the money argument: RPers aren't as wealthy as PvPers and need literally every advantage possible in combat.

The last is that if you PvPers don't like the buff they shouldn't raid. ftr, this is a parody of everyone who says "just surrender".
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Like @Mecharic said just dont't raid someone at their own territory, i just thought of an idea, the mods could set up an entirely new arena slightly different from minigames where faction members fight an opposing side in this arena kinda like aqua but for factions not individuals but now that i think of it this might be a bit too expensive with not much use in return but if anyone sees a way to make it better pls comment i love constructive criticism, also this would take away all buffs. IDK just a thought @illogicalleaf314 just pointed out something similar, the same concept as i did, both parties arrange a neutral area to fight each other on, this way noone gets a big buff advantage and none is needed because everyone knows it's coming again just a thought
 
Heroawesome said:
Like @Mecharic said just dont't raid someone at their own territory, i just thought of an idea, the mods could set up an entirely new arena slightly different from minigames where faction members fight an opposing side in this arena kinda like aqua but for factions not individuals but now that i think of it this might be a bit too expensive with not much use in return but if anyone sees a way to make it better pls comment i love constructive criticism, also this would take away all buffs. IDK just a thought @illogicalleaf314 just pointed out something similar, the same concept as i did, both parties arrange a neutral area to fight each other on, this way noone gets a big buff advantage and none is needed because everyone knows it's coming again just a thought
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There's one small flaw in this idea. With the buff, no one in their right mind would ever choose to fight on neutral ground. I mean, why would you willingly give up an overwhelming advantage?
That being said, a pacifist system would just work just fine, with you losing the buff when pacifist true is lost. This allows people a few more hits to get inside while it balances the PvP system, not giving people an overwhelming advantage and bypassing the need for a neutral arena
 
Tokugawryuu said:
There's one small flaw in this idea. With the buff, no one in their right mind would ever choose to fight on neutral ground. I mean, why would you willingly give up an overwhelming advantage?
That being said, a pacifist system would just work just fine, with you losing the buff when pacifist true is lost. This allows people a few more hits to get inside while it balances the PvP system, not giving people an overwhelming advantage and bypassing the need for a neutral arena
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Just to remind people, my statement was as a mimic of every PvPer ever saying "Just surrender" when people complain about being raided. So basically I was telling everyone to "get over it" just like PvPers tell us peaceable folk to surrender. A pretty decent part of me hopes the administration agrees with me, since PvPers shouldn't be able to raid people with impudence imo. Then the other part of me wants PvP to survive because I like PvP just not the whole "shit, there went my last god-sword/axe" part lol
 
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