Archived 30% Defensive Buff Discussion

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BenRekt

BenRekt

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As the title suggests, this post is about the 30% buff defenders receive whilst inside their own faction territory. Although a post concerning this "issue" has been brought up and created several times, I believe it has been a while since the 30% Damage Reduction in home faction territory has been brought up, or even discussed. As a PvPer myself, the 30% buff defenders receive in their own faction territory has always been over powered, discouraging raiding, as well as making anyone who is remotely good at running or healing close to invincible. I know I am not the only person who feels with way. After many other discussions with other active PvPers on Massive, I believe most experienced veterans believe the 30% Buff is harmful to the PvP community, as it allows less skilled players to triumph over people who are much more skilled than them, which in my opinion, should rarely ever be the case.

I would like to go back on what the title says, and state that I am not looking for a removal, not at all, only a reduction, to around 10-15%. Or have it so the buff is only applies when Pacifist is true, allowing non-PvPers a better chance at escaping their attackers. This will allow a slight defensive buff, but not something as overpowered as taking away nearly 1/3rd of the damage dealt from an opponent.

Just to summarize:

Why I believe the 30% buff requires a reduction

  • Discourages raiding
  • Creates imbalance of skill
  • Encourages players to faction hop to gain the buff
  • Spark point for flame, and hurts community - "Only fighting with the buff"
  • (Will add more points as thread is discussed)
I would like to fully re-iterate, this is mostly my opinion, but this opinion is very well shared by a majority of veteran (and many "non-veteran" players) from the MassiveCraft PvP community. This being said, the staff have always handled the server in an amazing manner, and this thread is to be free of flame or I will have it locked.

Just going to quickly tag people I believe can share their opinion on the subject:
@spoonly @Kidmodo @WU_Walrus @FubeTheMangler @ZIHAMMER1411 @davidn2012 @Wannag @jquaile @thor5648 @Jay Jay @kevencolis @Assembly123 @Killingking777 @Joshy54100 @Waminer @Yoloorange @wafflecash @Asmodeus35 @MazzerDK @MagicalWetToast @YankeeGiant8013 @qgmk

I am also going to ask that if you strongly agree with my opinion as well, that you change your status to this:
http://forums.massivecraft.com/forums/feature-idea-discussion.29/create-thread
In hopes of getting more opinions and feedback.
 
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I fully agree with Ben, the "why dont you come raid us, we're tiring of raiding on your land" line plus many more instances of flame should go out the backdoor with the 30%. It will give players an even fight on each others land and make the subject of who's going to raid who surely irrelevant. Plain and simple if you dont want to come out and fight, don't... thats fine. But its good to get comfortable on both sides and get accustomed to both elements of PvPing instead of only being one sided as in where you fight at. That all can be removed if we remove/greatly reduce the defensive buff.

P.S. The 30% buff + 15% Premium Buff + Plus a resistance potion makes getting killed very hard and greatly makes the outcome of a raid lean towards the group of players with all that damage reductions instead of the people that are coming to raid. In any case PvP should just be balanced out a bit, it will unclog quite a few issues.
 
Aww i wasn't tagged. Now i feel sad x)

@tim_gamerdude please state why you disagree to the post if possible. I'm pretty sure that we all would like some opinions on the subject instead of people just handing out negative ratings.
 
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Ye, agree with thor, it should stay 30%, but in pacifist only. I'm for completely removing it while in action, but also fine with 10% or less.
 
I completely agree with this. Morrc and I were discussing this yesterday,actually. We felt that 10-15% would be more than enough to allow defendersto have an advantage, whilst maintaining a good fight. Everything that we talked about has been said, and I feel that many share the same views on this topic
 
One reason I like the 30% buff for defense is because not everyone is a pvper. I'd say if you want a fair fight: either wait until they come to you or be strategic about it.
I know that most people will disagree with this. That was just my opinion, but I don't really care that much as I don't really pvp.

A 30% buff is better than a 40% buff. If all "pvp veterans" you've talked to say this buff should be removed, that partially proves my point.
Say there's an rp faction, and they get attacked by one of the best pvp factions on the server. They would go down without a fight even with the 30% buff, and even if they had higher numbers.

I would suggest a buff that changes depending on mcmmo stats. If you have a low powered rp faction with horrible mcmmo stats, then you would have a way higher buff than if a faction was filled with "pvp veterans" whom are extremely skilled.
Any pvp faction would have a lower buff than 30% if they really do pvp, because most pvpers work on their stats day and night.

If you disagree with me: please respond by giving me a negative rating, and reply to my post with something designed to make children cry, and to completely destroy any reasoning behind this post.
Thanks ebrybuddy. :)
 
What I think is the issue isn't so much that weak PvPers rely on the 30%, but that the strong PvPers ALSO use it to their advantage even though it wasn't intended for use by people who are already monsters without it. It exists to help even the gap between RandomNoob132 and HardCorePvP666, not to give Spectec and advantage over Wannag. This may seem like a punishment for high stats, but perhaps it could be linked to ones highest PvP stat (Swords, Axes, Unarmed, Archery, Taming) and once that gets to, say, 500 (or 750 or whatever other number the PvPers like) the entire bonus is removed?

If that isn't possible, I would approve of a 15% or 20% buff rather than a full 30%, but remember you need to keep it in context of helping the noob with no skills/ability survive an encounter with the professional pvper - not PvPer v/s PvPer.
 
I have brought up a concept before, the idea that factions with more land than they have power do not have the manpower to adequately maintain their lands, and so if their faction power (or max power, whichever) falls below their claimed land the faction members lose the defensive buff, or have it reduced.

That said, I do enjoy being near-impossible to kill when having a bunch of buffs.
 
I agree with this fully and @Brycea1111 I am raided close to everyday and I raid close to everyday, The buff is severely over powered I for one agree with @thor5648 in that out of pvp say going to run back inside to get geared up the 30% buff is reasonable as the Raiders caught you unawares in PVP it should be disabled as FAR too many people join to defend factions simply for the buff, modifying this as Thor suggested would not only improved and balance fighting but cut back on flame as well. That's my two cents.
 
Kman133 said:
One reason I like the 30% buff for defense is because not everyone is a pvper. I'd say if you want a fair fight: either wait until they come to you or be strategic about it.
I know that most people will disagree with this. That was just my opinion, but I don't really care that much as I don't really pvp.

A 30% buff is better than a 40% buff. If all "pvp veterans" you've talked to say this buff should be removed, that partially proves my point.
Say there's an rp faction, and they get attacked by one of the best pvp factions on the server. They would go down without a fight even with the 30% buff, and even if they had higher numbers.

I would suggest a buff that changes depending on mcmmo stats. If you have a low powered rp faction with horrible mcmmo stats, then you would have a way higher buff than if a faction was filled with "pvp veterans" whom are extremely skilled.
Any pvp faction would have a lower buff than 30% if they really do pvp, because most pvpers work on their stats day and night.

If you disagree with me: please respond by giving me a negative rating, and reply to my post with something designed to make children cry, and to completely destroy any reasoning behind this post.
Thanks ebrybuddy. :)
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If an RP faction gets raided the easy answer is for them to surrender and continue going about their lives.
 
What i see as facts currently:
  • All opinions I have heard this far from the veterans/experienced PvP'ers who are PvP'ing almost everyday are stating that the buff should be nerfed.
  • 60% damage reduction makes it extremely hard to get killed.
  • The 30% buff is being abused by allies who are defending a faction to get an advantage as @Mecharic stated aswell.
  • The buff wouldn't matter for people who mainly are on this server to roleplay since they either A. not would be fighting us veterans at all or B. would get killed within seconds.
  • We need more opinions! :P
(Not intended to offend anybody, sorry if i did (H) )
 
The buff is there for a reason, people told me before it was for the diamond armor that prems had extra, if we reduct it to the buff right now it would be 15%
 
jemoeder2021 said:
The buff is there for a reason, people told me before it was for the diamond armor that prems had extra, if we reduct it to the buff right now it would be 15%
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"It is there for a reason" - What reason in particular is that "reason"? I can't really respond to the rest because I cannot understand what point your trying to make / what you are actually saying.
 
Mecharic said:
Maybe not you, but I rather doubt that the people who an RP faction could defend against with the 30% buff are as decent as you are.
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If we implement @thor5648 's idea, this will allow it so non-PvPers will have the buff as long as they do not retaliate (losing their pacifist), giving them some damage reduction to aid in running away from attackers and possibly getting into a safer area. Also, I would just like to say that all of your points are valid, but there is no way that we can make everyone happy in a situation such as this one.
 
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BenAlex144 said:
If we implement @thor5648 's idea, this will allow it so non-PvPers will have the buff as long as they do not retaliate (losing their pacifist), giving them some damage reduction to aid in running away from attackers and possibly getting into a safer area. Also, I would just like to say that all of your points are valid, but there is no way that we can make everyone happy in a situation such as this one.
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I agree, it IS impossible to make everyone happy. I think a good compromise would be that when pacifist you get 30% reduction and when false you get 15% reduction. That would allow weaker people to still get the advantage in PvP but (hopefully) make things more balanced between raider and defender in combat.
 
Mecharic said:
Maybe not you, but I rather doubt that the people who an RP faction could defend against with the 30% buff are as decent as you are.
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If we are making the point of RPERS Vrs Pvpers no rp factions with or without a buff of 30% or 15% could possibly defend against a PvP faction. Which is why I think @BenAlex144s point that if they don't retaliate they still get the buff is most valid. Am I saying you are wrong mech? No, do I disagree that the buff helps RPers yes, as it does nothing to save them anymore then no buff would. Which brings me to a point that I will announce on another thread later.
 
-secretly just doesn't want to lose the only thing that lets him not die when his faction is attacked- (j/k but it'd be funny if that was true). I personally do like a system that is based on Pacitrue, Pacifalse, but think that the reduction should always be active in some way or form.
 
Maybe make it a 100 point trait that u get on homeland territory.
 
frederik049 said:
That would pretty much screw up all the current trait builds that we PvP'ers are using... x3
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that's the point, all of the trait builds have counters, this 1 of course would be you'd be more vulnerable or less cc immune, but you get this slight buff, I could see this working.
 
shaneski5 said:
that's the point, all of the trait builds have counters, this 1 of course would be you'd be more vulnerable or less cc immune, but you get this slight buff, I could see this working.
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Ah maw gawd.

This actually makes sense.

And this guy hasn't been on the server since traits, so....
 
Asmodeus35 said:
If an RP faction gets raided the easy answer is for them to surrender and continue going about their lives.
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Surrendering often requires a tribute to be paid. It wouldn't be fair if they had to pay a tribute out of their rp equipment stash or from their pockets.
If people constantly start wars with them and they always surrender, they won't get very far.
As somebody who spends most of their time in rp I know that people who are like me don't have many chances to make regals, especially without a shop.
I don't see how your statement is fair to both sides of this argument.

I'm sorry that I stated earlier I wasn't too into this and am still going. From now on I won't reply unless what you say isn't completely ridiculous.
 
shaneski5 said:
that's the point, all of the trait builds have counters, this 1 of course would be you'd be more vulnerable or less cc immune, but you get this slight buff, I could see this working.
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I would have to write a giant post with calculations and all kind of stuff in order to prove you wrong... Argh... Give me a little time...
Terrariauk said:
Ah maw gawd.

This actually makes sense.

And this guy hasn't been on the server since traits, so....
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You better not agree with him before I've written mah masterpiece.
 
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frederik049 said:
What i see as facts currently:
  • All opinions I have heard this far from the veterans/experienced PvP'ers who are PvP'ing almost everyday are stating that the buff should be nerfed.
  • 60% damage reduction makes it extremely hard to get killed.
  • The 30% buff is being abused by allies who are defending a faction to get an advantage as @Mecharic stated aswell.
  • The buff wouldn't matter for people who mainly are on this server to roleplay since they either A. not would be fighting us veterans at all or B. would get killed within seconds.
  • We need more opinions! :P
(Not intended to offend anybody, sorry if i did (H) )
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Say a faction used to be a pvp faction and was abandoned by almost everybody, and then turned into an RP faction. People would want to war with them, and they wouldn't be able to do anything about it without some help.
And say those rpers stored their rp stuff there on a constant basis...
(This is just to say, yes it does matter to us rpers. Especially those of us in factions.)
 
Kman133 said:
Say a faction used to be a pvp faction and was abandoned by almost everybody, and then turned into an RP faction. People would want to war with them, and they wouldn't be able to do anything about it without some help.
And say those rpers stored their rp stuff there on a constant basis...
(This is just to say, yes it does matter to us rpers. Especially those of us in factions.)
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I don't think that a situation like that ever have occurred but most PvP factions would probably leave you alone or i would at least. If i ever would turn my faction into a roleplay faction but my enemies however would choose to keep fighting me I'd defend my people. Even if i had to stand alone against an army of 10 men but normally a roleplay faction would not fight back at all, rather hide or go to spawn and roleplay i assume? Basically why is a PvP buff necessary for a person that doesn't PvP? (Keep in mind that we only want to nerf it currently)
 
I fail to see why it matters for most role-players. A big arguement I've seen against surrendering is they don't have the money. If this is so they likely have crappy armor. In which case they will get 2-3 hit by a PvPer with a God axe regardless of any buff. If they have the money for God armor, than they can probably find the money to surrender and be left alone for the next 2.5 months.

On the other hand, it completely screws up "god PvP." It can take up to a couple dozen hits to kill someone with God armor and the right traits. That being said, assuming it takes 20 hits to kill your opponent and they don't have regen or insta healths, that's a difference of a bit less than 7 more hits it takes you to kill your opponent than it takes them to kill you. In PvP that ca be a huge difference and decide who wins the fight, with the potential to win or lose a 250r god axe.
 
frederik049 said:
I don't think that a situation like that ever have occurred but most PvP factions would probably leave you alone or i would at least. If i ever would turn my faction into a roleplay faction but my enemies however would choose to keep fighting me I'd defend my people. Even if i had to stand alone against an army of 10 men but normally a roleplay faction would not fight back at all, rather hide or go to spawn and roleplay i assume? Basically why is a PvP buff necessary for a person that doesn't PvP? (Keep in mind that we only want to nerf it currently)
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If an RP faction was abandoned, they would have a lot fewer players.
If that faction had lots of land their land would be open for the taking, which would make a fight necessary. There are several other circumstances that would force them to fight. RP people would not let you take their stuff without a good fight (Which is why the buff is good).

What I was saying earlier is base the buff off of mcmmo (the higher the pvp mcmmo, the lower the buff)and maybe currently worn armor, this would make the buff more balanced.
What you said makes complete sense, but this is what I was thinking.
 
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Kman133 said:
If an RP faction was abandoned, they would have a lot fewer players.
If that faction had lots of land their land would be open for the taking, which would make a fight necessary. There are several other circumstances that would force them to fight. RP people would not let you take their stuff without a good fight (Which is why the buff is good).

What I was saying earlier is base the buff off of mcmmo (the higher the pvp mcmmo, the lower the buff)and maybe currently worn armor, this would make the buff more balanced.
What you said makes complete sense, but this is what I was thinking.
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Well what happens most of the time in this case from my own personal experiences is that when a RP faction gets raided by a known PvP faction such as Magnanimous or Deldirmor they usually can just contact the other side to come and fight for them. Also if it isn't two factions going to war at each other like in the example above you can just usually ask in trade chat for a PvP'er to come and help for pretty cheap as well (Most do it for 100-200r or nothing at all if they are bored). I'm not going to say what you said was wrong in anyway but there are other solutions around it that you can solve with less money then surrendering and with higher chances of winning even with the lower reduced damage.
 
One of my big arguments against this is that the ENTIRE purpose of the 30% damage reduction in your own territory is to give defenders an advantage. It doesn't matter if it disbalances PvP (which is already very disbalanced) because that is what it is supposed to do.

Another is the money argument: RPers aren't as wealthy as PvPers and need literally every advantage possible in combat.

The last is that if you PvPers don't like the buff they shouldn't raid. ftr, this is a parody of everyone who says "just surrender".
 
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