Archived Trait-races Hyrbid Plugin?

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Mecharic

Mecharic

I'm tempermental, deal with it.
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I just want some feedback on this thought I had... what would people here think of a Trait-Race hybrid plugin that retains SOME of the flexibility of traits while also making it easier to know what traits an enemy will have and limiting the sheer diversity and OPness of Traits.

It would work as follows: You select the race "Orc" and all traits orcs would have become cheaper while all traits they wouldn't have would become more expensive. There would also be traits that Orcs are unable to use, like Archery (more elfish right?) and traits that orcs have as forced traits (like unarmed I guess?). This would enable players to instantly write off a few traits from knowing the enemy race and instantly confirm a few traits from knowing the enemy race.

Traits that have less effect on PvP could be customizable between players (like Movement & Speed traits) while more PvP based traits would be preset by race or affected by race.

A Few Examples:

Race: Qadir
Mandatory Traits: Starvedarkness, Swordexpert, Heallight
Unusable Traits: Feeddarkness, Healdarkness, Unholy, ArcheryExpert, FlyWater/Lava/Web
Custom Traits: The Rest

Race: Elfish
Mandatory Traits: ArcheryExpert, Healvegitation, Starvedarkness
Unusable Traits: Unholy, FeedDarkness, Healdarkness, AxeExpert, FlyWater/Lava/Web
Custom Traits: The Rest

Race: Dwarf
Mandatory Traits: AxeExpert, HealDarkness, StarveLight
Unusable Traits: Unholy, FeedLight, HealLight, ArcheryExpert, FlyWater/Web/Lava
Custom Traits: The Rest

Race: Vampire/Demonic/Unholy
Mandatory Traits: Unholy, HealDarkness, HarmLight, FeedDarkness
Unusable Traits: Holy, HealLight, FeedLight, HealVegitation
Custom Traits: The Rest

Of course these are just ideas, feedback welcome. Please do not post "remove traits" or "only races please" as neither is liable to happen regardless of popular opinion.
 
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I was never around for races. But it sounds like the general consensus of PVPers want races instead of traits. I think this idea should appease everybody.
 
Mecharic said:
So what did this just vanish into the mire of MassiveCraft forum posts nobody cares about lol
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No xD there is just a lot of "ideas" (don't take the quotes the wrong way, this is an excellent idea) and people can say as much as they want how good they are. But I, personally, am waiting on a few of the "approved" ideas to come to fruition.
 
znake1468 said:
No xD there is just a lot of "ideas" (don't take the quotes the wrong way, this is an excellent idea) and people can say as much as they want how good they are. But I, personally, am waiting on a few of the "approved" ideas to come to fruition.
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Fair enough but I kinda expected more than 1 person besides me to post here... if only to tell me how dumb it is or something xD
 
I totally agree with this. I have seen WAY too many people use traits that do not fit their race whatsoever. Plus, it would still give people creative freedom by using the rest of the available traits. (Although there is a recommended trait build, lots of people ignore them)
 
Mecharic said:
This would enable players to instantly write off a few traits from knowing the enemy race and instantly confirm a few traits from knowing the enemy race.
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I still can't figure out why some people think being able to know the traits your enemy is using is a good thing.
 
StereoTurtle said:
They can adapt. "Oh, @Sevak has a weakness to archery?! I'll use my bow then!"
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That's obvious and it is also the exact point he is making. If you know all their weaknesses, all raids will devolve into raiders showing up, defenders changing traits to 3-shot said raiders, end of story.

StereoTurtle said:
There's still often that. Or people bringing up threads.
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BenRekt said:
Not that many people use the forums anymore I guess.
I remember when there were 10+ new posts everyday, rip.
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StereoTurtle said:
They can adapt. "Oh, @Sevak has a weakness to archery?! I'll use my bow then!"
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There's a difference between knowing what traits a person is using because you've been fighting them, and knowing what traits a person is using because it says so in the meta info of some "race" they might be using.

When traits were introduced, it introduced a lot more than just the traits themselves. It also introduced the idea of counter-builds, which are builds that counter a specific attribute someone has. But for counter-building to work, the way in which you find out what traits a person is using needs to be a bit challenging, if anything not easily apparently.

I can use your Sevak ArcheryWeakness example.
  • You've fought Sevak numerous times, and you realize that anyone who is using a bow, he avoids, and if you start using a bow, he avoids you too. You also notice that he seems to take more damage from archery shots. You've paid attention to how he plays, and you realize his weakness. You can counter-build accordingly if you wish. This is the correct way to figure out a weakness and counter-build.
  • You are fighting Sevak, and you see that his race is displayed as Orc, which have an inherent weakness to archery. You switch to archery. While it's the tactically smart choice, you didn't expend any effort in trying to figure out what his weakness was, therefore taking out any of the fun of counter-building for both parties involved. This is the incorrect way to figure out a weakness and counter-build.
 
Alj23 said:
There's a difference between knowing what traits a person is using because you've been fighting them, and knowing what traits a person is using because it says so in the meta info of some "race" they might be using.

When traits were introduced, it introduced a lot more than just the traits themselves. It also introduced the idea of counter-builds, which are builds that counter a specific attribute someone has. But for counter-building to work, the way in which you find out what traits a person is using needs to be a bit challenging, if anything not easily apparently.

I can use your Sevak ArcheryWeakness example.
  • You've fought Sevak numerous times, and you realize that anyone who is using a bow, he avoids, and if you start using a bow, he avoids you too. You also notice that he seems to take more damage from archery shots. You've paid attention to how he plays, and you realize his weakness. You can counter-build accordingly if you wish. This is the correct way to figure out a weakness and counter-build.
  • You are fighting Sevak, and you see that his race is displayed as Orc, which have an inherent weakness to archery. You switch to archery. While it's the tactically smart choice, you didn't expend any effort in trying to figure out what his weakness was, therefore taking out any of the fun of counter-building for both parties involved. This is the incorrect way to figure out a weakness and counter-build.
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First off why am I being used as an example xD
Second, most pvpers use the same negatives (archery vulnerable, unarmed vulnerable, miningfatigue, harmwater) or something similar to that. Archery and unarmed are rarely used during raids, and counter trait builds are rarely made. Only times I'll ever switch traits are if I think someone on the other side is using unholy.
 
Speaking of everyone using Unarmed Vulnerable they really need to buff Unarmed back to what it was. Even if your opponent has Unarmed Vulnerable and you have Unarmed Expert, Harmstrike, and Armorpenstrike you still don't do enough damage to kill someone with a full tank build and this is even when they aren't attacking back. They literally have to sit still while you jump crit them for 5 minutes just to kill them.

I miss the old days when Unarmed was a viable option. :/
 
@Alj23 - A decent number of PvPers say that Races was better because you knew what they could do, and it is not Meta Gaming to know that Maiar swim fast and are able to breath water, or that Qadir are better swordsmen, or Elves better archers. Racial trends would be well known across Aloria, in character and in game. And again, the trait-races combo would only lock in some traits and would not state what traits they are using, only the race (which leads to some traits being easier to use than others based on race). Sorry if that wasn't made clear enough in the post.
 
Perhaps rather than being unusable, they have a higher cost instead?
Or the opposite, certain traits cost less for certain races.
 
Enkiduu said:
Perhaps rather than being unusable, they have a higher cost instead?
Or the opposite, certain traits cost less for certain races.
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I'd love to see a Maiar with FlyLava. That said, very few traits would be preset. Maybe, 2 traits (1 positive, 1 negative) per race, leaving 5 slots open for non-prems and 8 slots open for premiums. And I do believe I already stated somewhere (xD) that each race would also effect the cost of traits they are likely or unlikely to have, much the way you stated it.
 
Enkiduu said:
I don't know, would that be a good thing or a bad thing?
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A good thing… Unless of course that changing races instead of removing all of your traits would change the cost of them because if I wanted for example archeru expert and fly water. I could just assign myself the races temporarily so I could get them cheaper
 
znake1468 said:
I think its about time we tag some techstaff so we can get the reality on the practicality of this idea. @Madus @ulumulu1510
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First of all, this is possible. (But most suggestions are, actually).
But I think we've had this discussion before, and the conclusion has always been that we don't want races back. I really doubt that we should spend time on limiting peoples creativity, that's just plain silly. No I really don't see this being added.
 
Madus said:
First of all, this is possible. (But most suggestions are, actually).
But I think we've had this discussion before, and the conclusion has always been that we don't want races back. I really doubt that we should spend time on limiting peoples creativity, that's just plain silly. No I really don't see this being added.
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I think what most players like about races is the simplicity of it. It may not give you many options but it isn't difficult to learn and it doesn't affect the PvP too much.
 
Madus said:
First of all, this is possible. (But most suggestions are, actually).
But I think we've had this discussion before, and the conclusion has always been that we don't want races back. I really doubt that we should spend time on limiting peoples creativity, that's just plain silly. No I really don't see this being added.
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When you say "we don't want races back" do you mean the staff or the players? I know for a fact that most pvpers (Raptum and Deldrimor holding the majority of the server's pvpers) would prefer to have races back over traits. Simplicity is key to getting more people to fight; one of the biggest problems on the server is that pvp is hard to get into for new players on the server (or even current players on the server), races makes pvp easier to get into. One faction that can be used as an example is Kings/Destruction, they left the server because of traits and would probably come back if they were removed and replaced with races.
 
DarShauwn said:
When you say "we don't want races back" do you mean the staff or the players? I know for a fact that most pvpers (Raptum and Deldrimor holding the majority of the server's pvpers) would prefer to have races back over traits. Simplicity is key to getting more people to fight; one of the biggest problems on the server is that pvp is hard to get into for new players on the server (or even current players on the server), races makes pvp easier to get into. One faction that can be used as an example is Kings/Destruction, they left the server because of traits and would probably come back if they were removed and replaced with races.
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I think what @Madus meant (if im reading this correctly) was more that since Races was a prototype, so to speak, for Traits, Its more of a staff thing to not want races back. If im reading that correctly
 
DarShauwn said:
When you say "we don't want races back" do you mean the staff or the players? I know for a fact that most pvpers (Raptum and Deldrimor holding the majority of the server's pvpers) would prefer to have races back over traits. Simplicity is key to getting more people to fight; one of the biggest problems on the server is that pvp is hard to get into for new players on the server (or even current players on the server), races makes pvp easier to get into. One faction that can be used as an example is Kings/Destruction, they left the server because of traits and would probably come back if they were removed and replaced with races.
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I should maybe have said "The conclusion has always been that races should not be brought back".
What you say is interesting but should be investigated further befor action is taken. However I do not want to be a part of that decision.
For the complexity part, I am not sure if this hybrid solution will actually be simpler.
 
Yea when I was talking about simplicity I meant to say that Races itself would be the most simple, not this new hybrid @Madus
 
I wasn't aiming for simple I was aiming for a combination of realism & the ability to predict your opponents traits.
 
Mecharic said:
I wasn't aiming for simple I was aiming for a combination of realism & the ability to predict your opponents traits.
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In essence though @Mecharic you did want to go simple… Because the entire reason people want races instead of traits is because it's simpler. i'm not saying that was your only reason, because I know it's not… Im just pointing out that simplicity is definitely a factor in this issue
 
Mecharic said:
I wasn't aiming for simple I was aiming for a combination of realism & the ability to predict your opponents traits.
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Why is being able to predict your opponent's traits such a breaking point here?

I don't want the enemy to know my traits unless they've fought me and have experience of my fighting patterns, and even then can only take a "guess" as to what my traits are, and then their counter build is at best stil a "guess." And vice versa. I don't to know theirs. Because if I do, taking the counter to their traits is logical, not fun, and I could see a lot of backlash from serious pvpers when people take traits they enjoy rather than the logical traits.

I hope some people share my views, or at least understand them. I hailed and still do see MassiveTraits as one of the best PVP plugins current existing. Traits brought about a new age of PVP, one I very much enjoy. Improvements and rebalance can always come. Scrapping an entire plugin is not the solution.
 
Alj23 said:
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I agree. I think a lot of people are doing a lot of complaining that PVP is too hard. Like I saw a while back that somebody got banned for sneaking in leaves during PVP. Who really cares? If anything it's more realistic. If I'm trying to escape I would go through the bushes and hide. I understand that pvpers want it easy and not to take as much effort but it gets really boring with more vanilla-ish PVP.
 
Alj23 said:
Why is being able to predict your opponent's traits such a breaking point here?

I don't want the enemy to know my traits unless they've fought me and have experience of my fighting patterns, and even then can only take a "guess" as to what my traits are, and then their counter build is at best stil a "guess." And vice versa. I don't to know theirs. Because if I do, taking the counter to their traits is logical, not fun, and I could see a lot of backlash from serious pvpers when people take traits they enjoy rather than the logical traits.

I hope some people share my views, or at least understand them. I hailed and still do see MassiveTraits as one of the best PVP plugins current existing. Traits brought about a new age of PVP, one I very much enjoy. Improvements and rebalance can always come. Scrapping an entire plugin is not the solution.
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Once again you read "and predict traits" and think "OH GOD THEY KNOW ALL MY TRAITS!". Race would decide exactly 2 traits, while making other more or less expensive. It does not reveal your entire build to an enemy, it only makes it easier to figure out. Why? Because it's more realistic. An orc is not likely to be using a bow, a dwarf even less so. A Qadir won't be feeding off the darkness, a Maiar won't be swimming in lava. While I understand your point (I favor traits over this idea) I still think that you're taking this out of context and -hiccups so loudly he needs to make note of it while typing- overreacting to what would amount to a very limited restriction on traits and very limited predictability.

Again, I do prefer Traits as they are, but figured this would help satisfy that group that wants Races back (f0r whatever reason -_-) without enraging too many Trait-lovers.
 
Well, I have nothing against traits, But, I agree with other members who said that getting in to pvp with traits is a lot harder then vanilla or races. When I came back from long ban and I had to start using traits, it was very difficult for me, and tbh, i didn't succed in it. I remember when I was fighting/PVPing with races, it was easier, and funnier. Traits aren't about good/bad connection, Its all about the skill and the time you have been using them and get more experience, but I would always want to see simplier way to use them and make them less OP, ill try to stay positive to both traits and race lovers. Traits are good, but races were better. Cheers
 
Mecharic said:
Once again you read "and predict traits" and think "OH GOD THEY KNOW ALL MY TRAITS!". Race would decide exactly 2 traits, while making other more or less expensive. It does not reveal your entire build to an enemy, it only makes it easier to figure out. Why? Because it's more realistic. An orc is not likely to be using a bow, a dwarf even less so. A Qadir won't be feeding off the darkness, a Maiar won't be swimming in lava. While I understand your point (I favor traits over this idea) I still think that you're taking this out of context and -hiccups so loudly he needs to make note of it while typing- overreacting to what would amount to a very limited restriction on traits and very limited predictability.

Again, I do prefer Traits as they are, but figured this would help satisfy that group that wants Races back (f0r whatever reason -_-) without enraging too many Trait-lovers.
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I prefer traits personally. And I hate how people who don't like traits are not trying to fix the problem, but instead are trying to remove something that took a lot of work and effort to create in the first place. What if there was a way to make it so players HAVE to choose 2 of their traits to make visible and known to anybody who does /seen on them. Would that help @Mecharic ?
 
Just do it, man. Go with the flow of an awesome idea.
*Oh please, oh please, I soo hope this happens*
 
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