Archived Revamping Pvp

[BenRekt]

As a serious response to "can Massive become what it once was?" from @North , here is my serious response on potential ideas that I think will almost definitely encourage PvP. They are dramatic but I think some of these need to be done otherwise PvP will continue its slow but steady decline.

• Complete removal of McMMO
• Significantly increase the cost of buying a faction and a minor decrease of faction upkeep / tax cost
• Force factions to surrender if they make no genuine efforts to actually defend themselves
• Create a temporary server shop where people can sell their EXTREME surplus of god gear and weapons for higher prices than the dirt cheap price they are now
• Finish and implement Silverwind so RPers can have fun as well (not a must, but something a LOT of player really want, though I know @MonMarty and the team ARE working hard and have a lot on their plate)

These are all very self-exclamatory and anyone who has played here for a decent amount of time can understand why these would be beneficial, but if you need an explanation please ask.

Tagging relevant people
@FubeTheMangler @jquaile @Alj23 @jes_ @Knyxor @Chappers65 @HeartAched @North @Joshy54100

@Sevak

 

[Zacatero]

Complete removal of McMMO

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As it was suggested on another thread, potentially removing only the pvp skills and leave the remaining "civilian" skills to stay. Since your main grievence with mcmmo is that its really necessary to spend time grinding before pvping, would this compromised solution solve your grievences? Because the civilian skills dont require grinding and most are passive like acro or herbalism, but are really rewarding the longer you stay active.

 

[Typhenon]

• Significantly increase the cost of a faction and then decrease faction cost

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Really confused by what this means

 

[Zacatero]

Really confused by what this means

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He means to raise the initial price above 500r to about 2k or more and then lower the upkeep like taxes i think

 

[BenRekt]

As it was suggested on another thread, potentially removing only the pvp skills and leave the remaining "civilian" skills to stay. Since your main grievence with mcmmo is that its really necessary to spend time grinding before pvping, would this compromised solution solve your grievences? Because the civilian skills dont require grinding and most are passive

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No, most skills provide passive benefits that would still force people to grind, even for slight advantages. For example, Herbalism gives increased saturation, meaning you don't have to eat as much in combat. Mining gives explosive resistance, making it ideal if you are fighting with creepers nearby. Passive benefits like these should not be in the game. Everything needs to be on an even playing field so a new player stands just as much a chance at defending themselves as anyone else.

 

[BenRekt]

Really confused by what this means

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No, most skills provide passive benefits that would still force people to grind, even for slight advantages. For example, Herbalism gives increased saturation, meaning you don't have to eat as much in combat. Mining gives explosive resistance, making it ideal if you are fighting with creepers nearby. Passive benefits like these should not be in the game. Everything needs to be on an even playing field so a new player stands just as much a chance at defending themselves as anyone else.

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Fixed, forgot to add "upkeep/tax"

 

[Zacatero]

No, most skills provide passive benefits that would still force people to grind, even for slight advantages. For example, Herbalism gives increased saturation, meaning you don't have to eat as much in combat. Mining gives explosive resistance, making it ideal if you are fighting with creepers nearby. Passive benefits like these should not be in the game. Everything needs to be on an even playing field so a new player stands just as much a chance at defending themselves as anyone else.

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Right but both of your examples dont effect pvp do they? Because those arent needed to grind to play factions. Like axes or swords are needed to pvp

 

[BenRekt]

Right but both of your examples dont effect pvp do they?

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Yes they do, inadvertently. Eating during combat can easily get you killed, if you have aren't at full hunger, you will not get passive regeneration, and if you stoop to low, you can no longer sprint. As I said, even minor benefits can have butterfly-effect style effects.

 

[FireFan96]

If I may pick your thread apart point by point:

Complete removal of McMMO

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+1

Force factions to surrender if they make no genuine efforts to actually defend themselves

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Somehow I see this being abused. While I'd return the favor and (attempt) to defend my faction anyways, we can't force people to do something they don't want to do (even if they are playing in survival and that's the law of the jungle)

Create a temporary server shop where people can sell their EXTREME surplus of god gear and weapons for higher prices than the dirt cheap price they are now

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Personal anecdote: On the last server I played on, I was one of about 10 people who basically controlled 90% of the wealth (like doublechests of diamonds, some legit, some not ) Anywho, a fun pastime was for us to announce in general chat something along the lines of:

Richguy1: man, I am bored today
me: we should go burn a chest of diamond blocks
richguy2: good idea, I'm down for it
otherplayer95:WHAT, GIMME SOME DIAMOND BLOCKS PLZ

and so we just dumped the stuff into the lava, and that was it. We didn't care, since we had so much of it, but little by little we just destroyed our wealth. When I eventually left and came here, I destroyed my entire vaults, burning about 15% of the server's economy.

What I'm getting at is maybe those who have chests upon chests of god gear should just have a sacrificial party to the economy gods and eliminate it all, without any compensation. If we have an admin shop, all it does is swap god armor inflation to regal inflation, which puts us in the same boat. It's a lot easier to just raise god armor prices while destroying the rest. Sure you don't get anything out of it, but it reduces the supply a bit. Then just raid people and demand they hand over their supplies and burn that. rinse and repeat until the market is where you want.

You want to have a reason to raid? Well this is a good one. Raid and demand god armor and weapons, and then burn it all. But of course have people keep some left so they can fight back.

 

[65jes89]

What I'm getting at is maybe those who have chests upon chests of god gear should just have a sacrificial party to the economy gods and eliminate it all, without any compensation. If we have an admin shop, all it does is swap god armor inflation to regal inflation, which puts us in the same boat. It's a lot easier to just raise god armor prices while destroying the rest. Sure you don't get anything out of it, but it reduces the supply a bit. Then just raid people and demand they hand over their supplies and burn that. rinse and repeat until the market is where you want.

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That's literally never going to happen

 

[BenRekt]

If I may pick your thread apart point by point:

+1

Somehow I see this being abused. While I'd return the favor and (attempt) to defend my faction anyways, we can't force people to do something they don't want to do (even if they are playing in survival and that's the law of the jungle)

Personal anecdote: On the last server I played on, I was one of about 10 people who basically controlled 90% of the wealth (like doublechests of diamonds, some legit, some not ) Anywho, a fun pastime was for us to announce in general chat something along the lines of:

Richguy1: man, I am bored today
me: we should go burn a chest of diamond blocks
richguy2: good idea, I'm down for it
otherplayer95:WHAT, GIMME SOME DIAMOND BLOCKS PLZ

and so we just dumped the stuff into the lava, and that was it. We didn't care, since we had so much of it, but little by little we just destroyed our wealth. When I eventually left and came here, I destroyed my entire vaults, burning about 15% of the server's economy.

What I'm getting at is maybe those who have chests upon chests of god gear should just have a sacrificial party to the economy gods and eliminate it all, without any compensation. If we have an admin shop, all it does is swap god armor inflation to regal inflation, which puts us in the same boat. It's a lot easier to just raise god armor prices while destroying the rest. Sure you don't get anything out of it, but it reduces the supply a bit. Then just raid people and demand they hand over their supplies and burn that. rinse and repeat until the market is where you want.

You want to have a reason to raid? Well this is a good one. Raid and demand god armor and weapons, and then burn it all. But of course have people keep some left so they can fight back.

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Demand god weapons? That is a good as asking some random stranger to hand you a twenty dollar bill for no other reason beside that you would like a twenty dollar bill. Nobody is EVER going to give up an advantage unless they have an incentive or are forced to. Everyone already has double chests of god weapons. Throwing one of them into the fire isn't going to change anything.

 

[Zacatero]

Demand god weapons? That is a good as asking some random stranger to hand you a twenty dollar bill for no other reason beside that you would like a twenty dollar bill. Nobody is EVER going to give up an advantage unless they have an incentive or are forced to. Everyone already has double chests of god weapons. Throwing one of them into the fire isn't going to change anything.

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Ya.. people are more inclined to get rid of this stuff if they can get free money for it. Whether or not its a lot of money is another question tho

 

[BenRekt]

Ya.. people are more inclined to get rid of this stuff if they can get free money for it.

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Exactly

 

[FireFan96]

eh, figured as much. but like I said, it swaps one inflation for another. Unless you get like 1r for every 10 pieces of armor you toss, this would never work.

I burn my crap, but I guess I'm the minority who likes to get manage his own economy.

 

[65jes89]

eh, figured as much. but like I said, it swaps one inflation for another. Unless you get like 1r for every 10 pieces of armor you toss, this would never work.

I burn my crap, but I guess I'm the minority who likes to get manage his own economy.

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I mean, when you have people like get help that have thousands of God weapons, burning a couple for funsies is going to do much. A mass, coordinated effort by staff to lower the supply could actually do something though.

If voting were lowered to a remotely reasonable amount, we wouldn't have to worry about the absurd regal inflation going on.

 

[Mecharic]

I'd just like to point out, as someone who's taken college level economics, that right now we have regal deflation on MassiveCraft. Regals are gaining value in comparison to all other items (excepting premium & ultra-rare lore items). This means that items are becoming less valuable. If you want to raise the price of items, you need a lot of inflation - that will lower the value of Regals in relation to Items, making Items cost more. Furthermore, more regals = more spending.

In theory at least - there's every chance that the regal:item value ratio won't change because people won't think the way real-world economists think, and will neither raise prices nor spend/buy more.

 

[Sevak]

I refuse to write my opinion since you forgot to tag me </3

 

[Alj23]

Hi Ben. Thanks for the tag. I read your post and am formulating my responses. I'll be posting a reply when I get off work and get home.

 

[BenRekt]

In theory at least - there's every chance that the regal:item value ratio won't change because people won't think the way real-world economists think, and will neither raise prices nor spend/buy more.

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Both you and I have both been playing on the server long enough to know that supply and demand is alive and well on this server. Do you know why God Weapons are so cheap? Because there are literally thousands of them, of which they are never actually removed from the economy completely because we can now keep them at full durability with McMMO, and previously /fix. If regal:itme value ratio was NOT a thing, god armor, weapons and literally everything that used to actually hold some value outside the magical economy revolving around lore items would still actually hold some value. Every single item is less valuable because the staple of the economy, god weapons, god tools and god armor are all basically worthless. Why in the world would you ever buy iron, gold, or any other material for that matter when god gear is already so dirt cheap that there is literally no reason to ever use anything else.

That's why I think the temporary shops would be beneficial.

 

[Mecharic]

Both you and I have both been playing on the server long enough to know that supply and demand is alive and well on this server. Do you know why God Weapons are so cheap? Because there are literally thousands of them, of which they are never actually removed from the economy completely because we can now keep them at full durability with McMMO, and previously /fix. If regal:itme value ratio was NOT a thing, god armor, weapons and literally everything that used to actually hold some value outside the magical economy revolving around lore items would still actually hold some value. Every single item is less valuable because the staple of the economy, god weapons, god tools and god armor are all basically worthless. Why in the world would you ever buy iron, gold, or any other material for that matter when god gear is already so dirt cheap that there is literally no reason to ever use anything else.

That's why I think the temporary shops would be beneficial.

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Oh I agree fully. But it needs to be said "in theory" because it's never been done. MassiveCraft has never set up a Staff Shop to drain materials/supplies/weapons/armor while pumping regals into the server. I still think they need to have a "Great War" of some sort where "Regalia" (staff shops) buy as much survival stuff as can be sold to them in exchange for a limited amount of money (like, only a little bit more than the market value). It would go a long way to balancing the economy, if what you want is higher prices & more valuable items.

 

[Zacatero]

Regals always have sinks.. tax, rent, etc

God Armor / weapons do not, especially if there isn't any PVP to break them and the simple /fix to repair

So exchanging the non sinkable stuff for sinkable regals. I don't think it'll have as negative an effect as you might think

I'm in support of the temp admin sellshops

 

[Nyrock]

I don't really know much about the situation, but would it help to remove /fix? I know it wouldn't solve the problem, but could it be beneficial in some way?

 

[Sevak]

I don't really know much about the situation, but would it help to remove /fix? I know it wouldn't solve the problem, but could it be beneficial in some way?

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That just wouldn't do anything

 

[65jes89]

I don't really know much about the situation, but would it help to remove /fix? I know it wouldn't solve the problem, but could it be beneficial in some way?

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Not many people use /fix anymore, McMMO is significantly better. Needing that might be beneficial though.

 

[Zacatero]

I don't really know much about the situation, but would it help to remove /fix? I know it wouldn't solve the problem, but could it be beneficial in some way?

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Under normal circumstances it would work but with no pvp... people arent even using /fix that much anyway. In fact its mostly used for tools so it would be counterproductive to some people to remove /fix

 

[TheComputerGeek2]

• Complete removal of McMMO
• Significantly increase the cost of buying a faction and a minor decrease of faction upkeep / tax cost
• Force factions to surrender if they make no genuine efforts to actually defend themselves
• Create a temporary server shop where people can sell their EXTREME surplus of god gear and weapons for higher prices than the dirt cheap price they are now

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Removal of McMMO isn't gonna go well at all, it is part of the experience here. Forced surrender needs more elaboration, aka, if the raiders can't pose enough of a threat to get the defending side to surrender, they shouldn't be awarded the victory anyway, and furthermore, this will likely be a disincentive to spend time in the factions worlds for many. And as for the server shop, you already have heard the policies of the economy not being moderated by server shops.

 

[BenRekt]

Removal of McMMO isn't gonna go well at all.

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Actually, I'm fairly certain most of the people who actually grinded McMMO would be fine with having it completely removed. McMMO in and of itself is completely pointless as it just forces a needless grind upon new players just to be able to compete. Nobody is going to join the survival / PvP community when it is dying if they have to jump through hoops just to be on even ground.

Forced surrender needs more elaboration, aka, if the raiders can't pose enough of a threat to get the defending side to surrender, they shouldn't be awarded the victory anyway, and furthermore, this will likely be a disincentive to spend time in the factions worlds for many.

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Obviously common sense would need to be used, but it is my hope that if McMMO was removed, people would actually at least attempt to defend themselves. It's not like there's very much to lose considering the material needed to fight (weapons and potions) are basically dirt cheap at this point. Why does surrender even exist at this point then? Seems like it might as well be removed considering I haven't seen anyone legitimately surrender in the past 2 years unless they were new to the server and were getting ganked constantly by PvPers.

And as for the server shop, you already have heard the policies of the economy not being moderated by server shops.

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Better to suggest something and have it denied than to never suggest it at all. Also, the economy is broken to all hell anyway. The only "economy" that actually exists is for non-utility RP items that server literally no purpose other than to look "cool". There's no reason to actually produce anything anymore and there most certainly isn't any endgame goals on this server that haven't already been met.

 

[Knyxo]

If the raiders can't pose enough of a threat to get the defending side to surrender, they shouldn't be awarded the victory anyway

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That's an easy way to look at it as a defender. Alternatively, if a defending faction can't pose enough of a threat to make the raiders go away through any means other than them getting bored of having nobody to fight, why don't they deserve the surrender?

 

[MonMarty]

I want to reply in a productive manner, but I'm not sure my opinion is relevant on the matter anymore. I've taken a step back of getting involved in all the major management decisions so anything of this depends on Omnom and Gethelp in case they want to argue a case for it during a meeting. Most of my work nowadays involves just solo projects for world and lore, I'm not sure busy with global server policy anymore.

That being said, I'm personally in favor of a lot of the suggested changes. I just don't know if there's enough of a platform to agree with change that radical.

 

[TheComputerGeek2]

That's an easy way to look at it as a defender. Alternatively, if a defending faction can't pose enough of a threat to make the raiders go away through any means other than them getting bored of having nobody to fight, why don't they deserve the surrender?

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I do more than just hide, I have spent my time on the battle field as well as the attacking party. Having been on both sides, I still believe that if the attacking party is unable to produce enough of a threat, they should not get the reward of surrender

 

[Zacatero]

Omnom and Gethelp

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@Omnomivore @Gethelp

 

[Omnomivore]

I will be reviewing/responding to a bunch of suggestions in the feature/idea suggestion thread either this week or next week, at which point I will give my consideration and responses.

 

[Conflee]

• Force factions to surrender if they make no genuine efforts to actually defend themselves

• Create a temporary server shop where people can sell their EXTREME surplus of god gear and weapons for higher prices than the dirt cheap price they are now

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These two are the biggest points I can get behind. Factions who just run and hide should face the consequences. As long as they are not RP factions at least. Huge factions who claim to want PVP, then run from it at every opportunity are my pet peeve XD even as a Non-PVPer it annoys me.

And for the God Gear, 100%, MassiveArmor needs to die. Or at least get a HUGE nerf. And add some way to sink some of that armor out of the economy.

 

[Knyxo]

Complete removal of McMMO

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Ideally, I'd rather see the plugin stay and simply have all the abilities that have hard caps(axe damage, axe crit chance, access to custom potions, bleed chance, etc.) maxed for all players, and make all the timed abilities(skullsplitter, berserk, etc.) last like 30 seconds or so for all players. That being said, if this isn't possible or takes too much time to change, I'm fine seeing it removed. Just would rather not scrap stuff until 100% needs to be. The whole repair a piece of god gear for one diamond thing needs to go though, regardless of how it happens.

Significantly increase the cost of buying a faction and a minor decrease of faction upkeep / tax cost

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Going back to one regal per 10 chunks would be acceptable I feel now that John is gone. Faction cost shouldn't be too crazy though. I know the staff want creating a faction to be a viable option to new/not rich players so they can do their own thing, and that's a positive thing imo.

Force factions to surrender if they make no genuine efforts to actually defend themselves

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It's hard to judge what a genuine effort is, especially if we're talking relying on game staff to make a judgment call on a raid that they didn't even watch or something of the like. The only way this is really efficient is by making a plugin for it, which is hard to balance because if the rewards for surrender from a faction that didn't fight back aren't enough to make up for the lack of loot from kills, then it's still not worth it. If the butt end of the deal that the defending side recieves is too steep, then nobody that isn't a PvPer will play factions at all. If there is no loss on the defending side, then we get an even worse economy via raiders farming rewards off of factions that don't fight back. It would be good to see this, just would need some significant planning.

Create a temporary server shop where people can sell their EXTREME surplus of god gear and weapons for higher prices than the dirt cheap price they are now

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Yes, all the god equipment that exists at the moment needs thinning out. This should happen.

The gear also needs to stop being created so fast though, or we'll just see it come back again and the market for it won't change. It was way too hard to create god gear pre-1.8. It's way too easy post-1.8. Should be something in between. I would suggest, if the server is able to edit this, that making an enchantment on an enchanting table have a 3x cost increase(So making what is currently a 3 level enchant would cost 9 Exp levels). New equipment would be created slower, and, with the assumption that McMMO repair is changed or removed, would mean that repairing existing gear actually costs something(either even more Exp levels with a vanilla anvil, or regals with /fix), so at the very least if people stash up hundreds of sets of armor, it will cost them a lot to keep using the same one all the time.

Finish and implement Silverwind so RPers can have fun as well (not a must, but something a LOT of player really want, though I know MonMarty and the team ARE working hard and have a lot on their plate)

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Absolutely.

 

[65jes89]

Going back to one regal per 10 chunks would be acceptable I feel now that John is gone. Faction cost shouldn't be too crazy though. I know the staff want creating a faction to be a viable option to new/not rich players so they can do their own thing, and that's a positive thing imo.

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Lowkey though you're getting 170r a day instead of 100r :/

 

[BenRekt]

I want to reply in a productive manner, but I'm not sure my opinion is relevant on the matter anymore. I've taken a step back of getting involved in all the major management decisions so anything of this depends on Omnom and Gethelp in case they want to argue a case for it during a meeting. Most of my work nowadays involves just solo projects for world and lore, I'm not sure busy with global server policy anymore.

That being said, I'm personally in favor of a lot of the suggested changes. I just don't know if there's enough of a platform to agree with change that radical.

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I will be reviewing/responding to a bunch of suggestions in the feature/idea suggestion thread either this week or next week, at which point I will give my consideration and responses.

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Sounds good, as I said, I know you guys generally have a lot on your plate. I haven't been playing on the server a ton lately but I do see the effort you guys are putting forth (like in the DailyCreeper, forums contests, games, etc.). I hope it doesn't sound like I'm complaining - I know I've done that a lot in the past. I've had some of my best moments in gaming on this server, hopefully this is all seen as constructive, not complaints.

 

[Knyxo]

Lowkey though you're getting 170r a day instead of 100r :/

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I see it this way. Voting helps get new players, something the server, and especially the factions world could use. John didn't; he existed to reward people for doing nothing. And if and when we get said new players, factions should be reasonably accessible to them and not a chore.

 

[65jes89]

I see it this way. Voting helps get new players, something the server, and especially the factions world could use. John didn't; he existed to reward people for doing nothing. And if and when we get said new players, factions should be reasonably accessible to them and not a chore.

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I agree, just still think that 170r is a bit much.

 

[Omnomivore]

I agree, just still think that 170r is a bit much.

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Just a quick comment and note from myself - I am in support of decreasing the regals earned from voting within the next month or so as the 10r a vote was originally implemented when we had fewer sites to vote at.

As Knyxor said, however, currently voting is highly beneficial to the server so a temporary influx of regals can be withstood. We are seeing a significant jump of our server on the various voting websites. For instance, we are a few votes away from making it onto page 1 of PlanetMinecraft's top charts. More votes = better server listings = more visibility/awareness = an influx of new players which is good for all areas of the server.

 

[Typhenon]

I will be reviewing/responding to a bunch of suggestions in the feature/idea suggestion thread either this week or next week, at which point I will give my consideration and responses.

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Omnom if you could also check out this thread because some good points were made on there too
https://forums.massivecraft.com/thr...-ever-be-what-it-was.50221/page-3#post-637692