Archived Remove The Grind (or Make It Optional)

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Celeras

Celeras

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Okay so I've never been a fan of the TES-style leveling mechanics (level through use.) I've always found it to be incredibly tedious and just counter-intuitive for the sake of realism, when traditional 'points based' leveling works just as well and there is no grind. Which is why I have always hated the plugin MCMMO. I just don't have the time nor the will to sit in a darkroom for hours on end ever so slowly leveling my weapon skills just so I can at least have a fair chance in combat with other players. This is actually the #1 reason I don't pvp.

You might be thinking I want MCMMO removed entirely, but though I would love that, (seriously, there are way better rpg plugins) that's not my suggestion. I would simply like other ways to level my skills. Ways that don't involve grinding, preferably.

A few examples of ways to level skills without having to grind:

- NPC trainers could teach skills for regals. The cost gets higher the more you train and they can only teach to a certain level.
- Quest rewards could be the choice of leveling a skill.
- Some 'staff lore' books could increase skills when read.
- Rare 'staff lore' potions could increase skill points.

I'd like to see what everyone else's opinion is on this matter.
 
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I think this actually is an ok idea. Personally I'd like to see new players get more into PVP but they can't really due to the MCMMO leveling which takes a ridiculous amount of time. I'm not too sure about the pay to train method because a person can come in brand new, buy a bunch of regals and then just pay for a high level. The rare books though I think are a nice idea, they would also increase the usability of many lore items which until this point have almost no real purpose.
 
Leveling now is insanely fast with MassiveMobs + Fenderfell + Traits. It really doesn't take much to have enough levels to keep up with high level pvpers (Like 750 axes, swords, and unarmed). Other than boosting your armor damage, the grind should not take very long at all.
 
i agree with Grid here, once massivemobs was out i could raise my MCMM very quick in fender, i think 50 lvls a night if i was lucky to find a xijautin (r something) otherwises just 40, now my mcmmo is higher so i dun get that many lvl's each night but it's stil very fast
 
Well, a 'long time' is subjective IMO but anyway, that wasn't the only point. I'd just really rather have other ways to do it no matter how much time it takes.

Right now my time is limited and when I am online I'm always building or gathering for regals. It's more about benifitting from different play styles than about the time.
 
I agree with this idea. I've never had the patience for darkrooming (it IS tedious, dull, and completely stupid) and feel that other ways of leveling up MCmmo would be both useful to the PvP community (by allowing more people to enter it) and to the RP community (by giving alternatives to DR grinding as a lvling method). It would be interesting to see this added.
 
If you guys have any other alternative leveling ideas feel free to post them.
 
TheFinitePeach said:
I think this actually is an ok idea. Personally I'd like to see new players get more into PVP but they can't really due to the MCMMO leveling which takes a ridiculous amount of time. I'm not too sure about the pay to train method because a person can come in brand new, buy a bunch of regals and then just pay for a high level. The rare books though I think are a nice idea, they would also increase the usability of many lore items which until this point have almost no real purpose.
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Sorry I'm slow to respond. I actually thought buying regals was illegal, but I guess not. I do know that the staff does not like when people but regals so who knows maybe it could become banned.
 
By doing this you would make everyone who has put the hard work into grinding mcmmo very, very mad. Things such as this have been suggested many times before, and in most of them have been struck down for the reason that so many people have already darkroomed enough to get there skills up. And as grid said, grinding mcmmo isn't very hard anymore with the addition of massivemobs. I personally rarely use a darkroom anymore, favoring to use my factions's front lawn to grind mobs at night and then building/managing other faction things during the day.
 
... If you don't have time to train your stats... don't train them?

I did /NOT/ spend 8 months training to get to number 21 on mctop and then staff go in and add an easier way.. I would be highly disappointed if they did so.
 
65jes89springer said:
By doing this you would make everyone who has put the hard work into grinding mcmmo very, very mad. Things such as this have been suggested many times before, and in most of them have been struck down for the reason that so many people have already darkroomed enough to get there skills up. And as grid said, grinding mcmmo isn't very hard anymore with the addition of massivemobs. I personally rarely use a darkroom anymore, favoring to use my factions's front lawn to grind mobs at night and then building/managing other faction things during the day.
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Sorry about that, but choosing not to upset one group will only upset another. It shouldn't be about whose feelings get hurt but about the fairness of the game. Right now the game is hugely geared toward grinding and some of use just don't want to grind and wont.

Brycea1111 said:
... If you don't have time to train your stats... don't train them?

I did /NOT/ spend 8 months training to get to number 21 on mctop and then staff go in and add an easier way.. I would be highly disappointed if they did so.
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Its not about making the game any easier... In fact, doing quests to get exp would probably harder than spending time killing random mobs in a darkroom. Its about people having different priorities and play styles not being able to have a fair chance in PVP because they don't enjoy grinding.
 
Celeras said:
Sorry about that, but choosing not to upset one group will only upset another. It shouldn't be about whose feelings get hurt but about the fairness of the game. Right now the game is hugely geared toward grinding and some of use just don't want to grind and wont.



Its not about making the game any easier... In fact, doing quests to get exp would probably harder than spending time killing random mobs in a darkroom. Its about people having different priorities and play styles not being able to have a fair chance in PVP because they don't enjoy grinding.
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That group of people really isn't that small… There is a large number of people who have mcmmo abilities hogh enough to fight in the "big leagues." Also, it's really not that hard or time-consuming to get decent mcmmo levels, nor is it really necessary. Although it helps a lot, exceptional pvpers, while they may be unable to fight in the "big leagues" can pvp others with slightly higher or similar mcmmo levels while they train. Finally, one aspect of pvp that is absolutely necessary is god armor and weapons. This is absolutely needed to pvp, and sorry, but no matter how much anyone asks, they aren't going to hand out god sets at uspawn to every player who wants to pvp. So, this brings the question, how do you get this gear? As most people know you get it by enchanting, whether you enchant books or the items themselves. And the most important ingredient to enchanting? Experience. Which you get by killing mobs, along with a few other things. Now that you're killing mobs again, you are increasing your mcmmo, and once again grinding.
 
65jes89springer said:
That group of people really isn't that small… There is a large number of people who have mcmmo abilities hogh enough to fight in the "big leagues." Also, it's really not that hard or time-consuming to get decent mcmmo levels, nor is it really necessary. Although it helps a lot, exceptional pvpers, while they may be unable to fight in the "big leagues" can pvp others with slightly higher or similar mcmmo levels while they train. Finally, one aspect of pvp that is absolutely necessary is god armor and weapons. This is absolutely needed to pvp, and sorry, but no matter how much anyone asks, they aren't going to hand out god sets at uspawn to every player who wants to pvp. So, this brings the question, how do you get this gear? As most people know you get it by enchanting, whether you enchant books or the items themselves. And the most important ingredient to enchanting? Experience. Which you get by killing mobs, along with a few other things. Now that you're killing mobs again, you are increasing your mcmmo, and once again grinding.
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Once again, its not about how hard or how long it takes to grind. Its the grind itself. Before you go making any more assumptions about me, I get my EXP solely from smelting and I don't remember having ever asked for god armor to be handed out at the spawn... (facepalm)(wasntme)
 
Celeras said:
Once again, its not about how hard or how long it takes to grind. Its the grind itself. Before you go making any more assumptions about me, I get my EXP solely from smelting and I don't remember having ever asked for god armor to be handed out at the spawn... (facepalm)(wasntme)
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I know you didn't say you wanted to have god armor handed out at spawn, however in order to pvp you need god armor, which would either need to be handed to you, or you would have to wnchant it yourself. And, no offense, but smelting is probably the most ineffecient ways to get xp there is…
 
65jes89springer said:
I know you didn't say you wanted to have god armor handed out at spawn, however in order to pvp you need god armor, which would either need to be handed to you, or you would have to wnchant it yourself. And, no offense, but smelting is probably the most ineffecient ways to get xp there is…
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Well i'd rather smelt than grind mobs. I spend a lot of time mining and smelting anyway. I can get to level 30 multiple times out of one mining trip.

Guys, if your only point is that you would get upset because you had to grind and with options like this others wouldn't, you kind of sound like this...
20100818_crybaby_190x190.jpg


Saying "Wah how come he gets to do it differently!" is not a rational argument for not fixing a broken system.
 
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I would like to see other ways, especially if it can be funnier than grinding.
Paying shouldn't be a thing, because a good trader isn't always a good pvp'er.
Grinding should still be a thing though. IMO
 
gridiron1024 said:
Leveling now is insanely fast with MassiveMobs + Fenderfell + Traits. It really doesn't take much to have enough levels to keep up with high level pvpers (Like 750 axes, swords, and unarmed). Other than boosting your armor damage, the grind should not take very long at all.
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Gridiron makes a good point, but I think that you should still be able to do the grind, and just have trainers and stuff as an optional side thing.

Also, if you don't like darkrooms, the Fendarfell desert is basically a giant dark room at night, but is 100 times more fun than a 3 tall darkroom itself.

Stick on some awesome war music [Preferably GOT, but 2steps is good too], make a little wall, and play as if you're a defender of the Realm saving the 7 kingdoms from walkers of the north :D
 
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Celeras said:
Well i'd rather smelt than grind mobs. I spend a lot of time mining and smelting anyway. I can get to level 30 multiple times out of one mining trip.

Guys, if your only point is that you would get upset because you had to grind and with options like this others wouldn't, you kind of sound like this...
20100818_crybaby_190x190.jpg


Saying "Wah how come he gets to do it differently!" is not a rational argument for not fixing a broken system.
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The system isn't broken. It works perfectly fine. The effort you put in equals the reward you get, let's not pull an Apple and fix something that isn't broken.
 
Going to throw in my opinion.

As much as I would love grinding to become optional, @Brycea1111 brings up a good point; it would make some of the top MCMMO players rather furious. Seeing as this suggestion is geared towards newer players, maybe add some limitations, to appease both parties.
  • Finishing quests gives the player 5 levels to spend on any skill.
  • If you have 30-50 levels in one skill, you cannot add more to it via quest items.
  • MCMMO levels can not be gained from quests after the player has an overall MCMMO level of 500.
 
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Nico07291 said:
Going to throw in my opinion.

As much as I would love grinding to become optional, @Brycea1111 brings up a good point; it would make some of the top MCMMO players rather furious. Seeing as this suggestion is geared towards newer players, maybe add some limitations, to appease both parties.
  • Finishing quests gives the player 5 levels to spend on any skill.
  • If you have 30-50 levels in one skill, you cannot add more to it via quest items.
  • MCMMO levels can not be gained from quests after the player has an overall MCMMO level of 500.
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Yes. Cap it.

Also, if it's easy to get, then the high ranks would do it as well thus negating the entire point of it...
 
Terrariauk said:
The system isn't broken. It works perfectly fine. The effort you put in equals the reward you get, let's not pull an Apple and fix something that isn't broken.
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An aspect of a game which is completely unenjoyable to half its player base isn't broken?

Nico07291 said:
Going to throw in my opinion.

As much as I would love grinding to become optional, @Brycea1111 brings up a good point; it would make some of the top MCMMO players rather furious. Seeing as this suggestion is geared towards newer players, maybe add some limitations, to appease both parties.
  • Finishing quests gives the player 5 levels to spend on any skill.
  • If you have 30-50 levels in one skill, you cannot add more to it via quest items.
  • MCMMO levels can not be gained from quests after the player has an overall MCMMO level of 500.
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Why does this make people furious? Is it because it doesn't make people special anymore or something? Like I said before, I don't think it should or would be any less difficult than grinding, just a different way. So what's the problem?
 
Celeras said:
An aspect of a game which is completely unenjoyable to half its player base isn't broken?



Why does this make people furious? Is it because it doesn't make people special anymore or something? Like I said before, I don't think it should or would be any less difficult than grinding, just a different way. So what's the problem?
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Yet is enjoyable to the other half? Earlier you said we need to cater for all players, so upsetting a large chunk of the community wouldn't be clever.

It makes people furious, not because it's been suggested but due to your conduct about it. Whining that it's broken, and then complaining about us whining that it isn't doesn't help your cause, it just makes you look stubborn.
 
A system were your 'skill level' is determined more by how long you do something than by how well you do it is just seems counter-intuitive.
I'm more of a fan of achievement a based gains system- do a task, get a reward. The better the player can do it, the less time it takes to level up.

Giving an alternate way to level doesn't mean everyone already of a high level has hasted their weeks of grinding- their still keeping their progress- but it does mean they can have a break from doing things like repetitively climbing stairs and jumping off again, and do an obstacle course or two.

Levelling up by doing missions or training courses would be great, but if you get a set amount of exp each time it would once again be a matter of grinding to get levels.
Perhaps a system one that exp is negatively influenced by how many times you do it- huge reward first time but each time you repeat it you only learn half as much as you did the time before. this would allow new players to quickly level to a point they can decently use abilitys and aren't too outmatched, but to become a very high level you still need to put some dedication to it.
 
Grinding is something which is necessary to be decent at PvP. With strength extended potions, you can get up to a decent level in a matter of days. Not even no lifeing it. When I joined Raptum I had ~500 axes. I got it to 1000 in 3 days, darkrooming for ~1 hour per day. It's really not stupidly hard, and doesn't take up much time at all
 
Celeras said:
- NPC trainers could teach skills for regals. The cost gets higher the more you train and they can only teach to a certain level.
- Quest rewards could be the choice of leveling a skill.
- Some 'staff lore' books could increase skills when read.
- Rare 'staff lore' potions could increase skill points.
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This smells like Skyrim.
 
So to summarise, you instead of using "tedious" hard work, dedication, training resources and connections to become powerful, you want to give some coins to some npcs to become a godly pvper? I mean, your post kinda seems like it wants the system to be more realistic, but reading some books isn't how you become strong.

Yes it's boring, yes it's tedious and yes it's not for everyone, but that's the whole point. If it were made easy, then everybody and their mother would end up as a Gary Stu level of PvP with little to no effort.
 
Terrariauk said:
Yet is enjoyable to the other half? Earlier you said we need to cater for all players, so upsetting a large chunk of the community wouldn't be clever.
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Neither would catering to a certain group because theyre jealous.

Terrariauk said:
It makes people furious, not because it's been suggested but due to your conduct about it. Whining that it's broken, and then complaining about us whining that it isn't doesn't help your cause, it just makes you look stubborn.
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Eh, I think you should go back and read the comment I was responding to, and then read mine again...

da_CamelQueen said:
This smells like Skyrim.
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All TES game skills level the same way. The reason they have other ways of getting skill levels is precisely the same reason I posted this thread. Grinding also isn't as boring in Skyrim because there are quests.

IllogicalLeaf said:
So to summarise, you instead of using "tedious" hard work, dedication, training resources and connections to become powerful, you want to give some coins to some npcs to become a godly pvper? I mean, your post kinda seems like it wants the system to be more realistic, but reading some books isn't how you become strong.

Yes it's boring, yes it's tedious and yes it's not for everyone, but that's the whole point. If it were made easy, then everybody and their mother would end up as a Gary Stu level of PvP with little to no effort.
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MCMMO skills don't make you godly, but if you want a fair chance against someone with high stats and god armor, you better have high stats and god armor too. There is nothing 'hard' about leveling as it is now. If I really wanted to, I could do it today with little to no effort.
 
Celeras said:
MCMMO skills don't make you godly, but if you want a fair chance against someone with high stats and god armor, you better have high stats and god armor too. There is nothing 'hard' about leveling as it is now. If I really wanted to, I could do it today with little to no effort.
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Following your advice, I did read the thread again, and got a tad bit confused.
First of all, godly was hyperbole, referring to how players with high mcmmo can always win against those without it, a competitive edge if you'd like.

"I just don't have the time nor the will to sit in a darkroom for hours on end ever so slowly leveling my weapon skills just so I can at least have a fair chance in combat with other players. This is actually the #1 reason I don't pvp."

You're kinda contradiction yourself here, your whole argument is that it's too boring and too much work to get high skills, then you say that you can do it today with little to no effort, which is it?
 
arthur said:
for that i can only say this:
traits+tactics.
you don't need god armor and/or high stats (but it does help indeed)
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Could you elaborate on this please?

IllogicalLeaf said:
Following your advice, I did read the thread again, and got a tad bit confused.
First of all, godly was hyperbole, referring to how players with high mcmmo can always win against those without it, a competitive edge if you'd like.

"I just don't have the time nor the will to sit in a darkroom for hours on end ever so slowly leveling my weapon skills just so I can at least have a fair chance in combat with other players. This is actually the #1 reason I don't pvp."

You're kinda contradiction yourself here, your whole argument is that it's too boring and too much work to get high skills, then you say that you can do it today with little to no effort, which is it?
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When you compare a person with high stats to a person with low stats then yes, the one with higher stats is way more powerful. But that doesn't make them godly. Furthermore, with other ways to gain levels there would be less of a difference in stats across the server.

No, my argument was that it is tedious. Tedium doesn't equate to "too much work." When I said I could do it today if I wanted to that would mean ignoring every other obligation I have both on the server and in real life, and I think you know my point was that grinding is not a skill based activity. It is just complete mindless tedium.
 
Celeras said:
Could you elaborate on this please?



When you compare a person with high stats to a person with low stats then yes, the one with higher stats is way more powerful. But that doesn't make them godly. Furthermore, with other ways to gain levels there would be less of a difference in stats across the server.

No, my argument was that it is tedious. Tedium doesn't not equate to "too much work." When I said I could do it today if I wanted to that would mean ignoring every other obligation I have both on the server and in real life, and I think you know my point was that grinding is not a skill based activity. It is just complete mindless tedium.
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Hyperbole means extreme exaggeration. Tedious means boring. You probably know that, but somewhere along the way you've managed to misinterpret their meaning, so I'll just throw that out there.

Something tedious takes just as much time away from your commitments as something interesting, so the only difference is that you're unwilling to commit to doing something because it isn't necessarily fun. That's ok, but if you aren't willing to go through the many boring hours in a darkroom then it would be unfair to expect to be at the same level as the "grinders" who do.
 
Yeah... There is a difference between some people not wiling to spend time to train skills and a plugin being 'broken' on a server. Plenty of people have spent time on this and these people typically think it's worth it.

Some people don't want to level skills because they prefer to do other stuff. I see no problem with this, if you don't want to spend hours leveling skills do something else you like instead! I think the playerbase is much more interesting with some peoples' unwillingniss to grind.
 
HydraBlaze said:
Yeah... There is a difference between some people not wiling to spend time to train skills and a plugin being 'broken' on a server. Plenty of people have spent time on this and these people typically think it's worth it.

Some people don't want to level skills because they prefer to do other stuff. I see no problem with this, if you don't want to spend hours leveling skills do something else you like instead! I think the playerbase is much more interesting with some peoples' unwillingniss to grind.
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Basically what I was getting at.
 
I think this would be a lovely idea that would bring more Pvpers into Roleplay, and more Roleplayers into Pvp.

The coding and maintainance of said skill books however would be so tedious on the Staff's part.
 
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