Archived Remove The Grind (or Make It Optional)

[Celeras]

Okay so I've never been a fan of the TES-style leveling mechanics (level through use.) I've always found it to be incredibly tedious and just counter-intuitive for the sake of realism, when traditional 'points based' leveling works just as well and there is no grind. Which is why I have always hated the plugin MCMMO. I just don't have the time nor the will to sit in a darkroom for hours on end ever so slowly leveling my weapon skills just so I can at least have a fair chance in combat with other players. This is actually the #1 reason I don't pvp.

You might be thinking I want MCMMO removed entirely, but though I would love that, (seriously, there are way better rpg plugins) that's not my suggestion. I would simply like other ways to level my skills. Ways that don't involve grinding, preferably.

A few examples of ways to level skills without having to grind:

- NPC trainers could teach skills for regals. The cost gets higher the more you train and they can only teach to a certain level.
- Quest rewards could be the choice of leveling a skill.
- Some 'staff lore' books could increase skills when read.
- Rare 'staff lore' potions could increase skill points.

I'd like to see what everyone else's opinion is on this matter.

 

[Celeras]

Hyperbole means extreme exaggeration. Tedious means boring. You probably know that, but somewhere along the way you've managed to misinterpret their meaning, so I'll just throw that out there.

Something tedious takes just as much time away from your commitments as something interesting, so the only difference is that you're unwilling to commit to doing something because it isn't necessarily fun. That's ok, but if you aren't willing to go through the many boring hours in a darkroom then it would be unfair to expect to be the same level as the "grinders" who do.

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Yes. Once again if you had read the topic, you would know that this is not about time. Now, normally you'd be right (that I shouldn't expect to be the same level as grinders) but on this server there are two types of players. Those who raid and those who don't. For those of us that don't raid, we don't focus so much on the PVP aspect of the server. Yet we do get raided, and when we do, we are unprepared. I just don't think it's a good idea for the server to throw both types of players into the same bowl and then force an aspect of gameplay on them without giving them an enjoyable way of participating in it.

Seeing as how I never mentioned the meaning of hyperbole (wtf?) I'm just going to ignore that first bit.

Yeah... There is a difference between some people not wiling to spend time to train skills and a plugin being 'broken' on a server. Plenty of people have spent time on this and these people typically think it's worth it.

Some people don't want to level skills because they prefer to do other stuff. I see no problem with this, if you don't want to spend hours leveling skills do something else you like instead! I think the playerbase is much more interesting with some peoples' unwillingniss to grind.

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What about what I just mentioned in my response above? I can't just ignore pvp when it comes to my doorstep.

 

[Celeras]

no i can't. my stubborn mind thinks it is to obvious to explain, sorry. (i'm serious about that)

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Well I haven't spent much time looking at traits. It seems to me that if everyone has them, they aren't that big of a difference. They seem like more of an RP aspect with PVP bonuses than something that has a huge impact on pvp

 

[Shayin]

Oh, looking through now consider this your warning, the owner of this thread made this lovely suggestion, don't deface it with a "pvp r brok" argument. Violators will be punished accordingly.

 

[HydraBlaze]

What about what I just mentioned in my response above? I can't just ignore pvp when it comes to my doorstep.

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My list of things I do when I get raided and don't want to fight back...

• Prepare a bunch of trappy traps and use those trappy traps to trap the people.
• Call in allies that are willing to help you out, or find better allies.
• Wait for them to get bored and leave.
• Build something inside or decorate something.
• Go to Regalia and Rp with an awesome community.
• Read the forums.
• Think of another idea that sounds good!

 

[TheTerrawr]

Well I haven't spent much time looking at traits. It seems to me that if everyone has them, they aren't that big of a difference. They seem like more of an RP aspect with PVP bonuses than something that has a huge impact on pvp

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Evidently if you think that, you don't have the knowledge to be able to makes decision about this kind of thing.

Traits matter. A hell of a lot. I can go from 10+ shotting someone in god armour, to potentially 2 shotting them with the right traits.

 

[Celeras]

Oh, looking through now consider this your warning, the owner of this thread made this lovely suggestion, don't deface it with a "pvp r brok" argument. Violators will be punished accordingly.

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I guess that's that then.

Evidently if you think that, you don't have the knowledge to be able to makes decision about this kind of thing.

Traits matter. A hell of a lot. I can go from 10+ shotting someone in god armour, to potentially 2 shotting them with the right traits.

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Traits JUST came out. I haven't tested any of them out. It is alarming that something like that is possible though...

 

[TheTerrawr]

I guess that's that then.


Traits JUST came out. I haven't tested any of them out. It is alarming that something like that is possible though...

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It's not alarming, it's a combination of Harmstrike hitting twice in a row using archery expert and also the other person having archery vulnerable. Also, you need 1000 archery for something like this.

 

[Celeras]

My list of things I do when I get raided and don't want to fight back...

• Prepare a bunch of trappy traps and use those trappy traps to trap the people.
• Call in allies that are willing to help you out, or find better allies.
• Wait for them to get bored and leave.
• Build something inside or decorate something.
• Go to Regalia and Rp with an awesome community.
• Read the forums.
• Think of another idea that sounds good!

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Or suggest an idea that would actually help me get involved in PVP thus making the game more fun for raiders.

 

[HydraBlaze]

Or suggest an idea that would actually help me get involved in PVP thus making the game more fun for raiders.

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If your goal is to make it more fun for raiders, I suggest walking outside with no armor carrying a stack of diamond blocks.

 

[TheTerrawr]

Or suggest an idea that would actually help me get involved in PVP thus making the game more fun for raiders.

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Train. Like, seriously, it took me two days of 5 hour grinding to get 750 swords. 2 hours a day would take what, just under a week?

 

[illogicalleaf314]

Yes. Once again if you had read the topic, you would know that this is not about time. Now, normally you'd be right (that I shouldn't expect to be the same level as grinders) but on this server there are two types of players. Those who raid and those who don't. For those of us that don't raid, we don't focus so much on the PVP aspect of the server. Yet we do get raided, and when we do, we are unprepared. I just don't think it's a good idea for the server to throw both types of players into the same bowl and then force an aspect of gameplay on them without giving them an enjoyable way of participating in it.

Seeing as how I never mentioned the meaning of hyperbole (wtf?) I'm just going to ignore that first bit.


What about what I just mentioned in my response above? I can't just ignore pvp when it comes to my doorstep.

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If you go back like, 4 replies or something, I said that godly was hyperbole, then you went on to say that godly was an exaggeration.

I'm gonna do my best to make this my last reply, so you don't have to respond if you don't want to. Yes, you'll have to do work to be prepared, that's what makes Massive interesting and exciting. (Well it did, I don't really play anymore but that's irrelevant) Liken it to a real world situation, no matter how big your castle is, or how expensive your weaponry is, a level of experience and raw training is required to become good at fighting. If a bunch of nobles bought the most expensive weaponry, and armour, it wouldn't save them against a gang of bloodthirsty battle-hardened bandits. (Alliteration )

TL;DR If you don't put in the effort (effort != fun or interesting), you're just a rich kid with a bunch of expensive weapons that won't stand up to the test of battle, and that's how I think it should be.

 

[Celeras]

Train. Like, seriously, it took me two days of 5 hour grinding to get 750 swords. 2 hours a day would take what, just under a week?

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Yeah I am going to say that will never happen. Call me crazy, but I thought games were supposed to be fun, not a chore on a schedule.

Since he's off.
"TL;DR If you don't put in the effort (effort != fun or interesting), you're just a rich kid with a bunch of expensive weapons that won't stand up to the test of battle, and that's how I think it should be." I am confused by this argument. Unless you think that somehow MCMMO skills are a measure of your IRL abilities, this makes no sense.

 

[krios41]

Yeah I am going to say that will never happen. Call me crazy, but I thought games were supposed to be fun, not a chore on a schedule.

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you are not forced to do it

 

[HydraBlaze]

Yeah I am going to say that will never happen. Call me crazy, but I thought games were supposed to be fun, not a chore on a schedule.

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Firstly, you are crazy.

Secondly and most importantly, training is not that easy. You are not forced to do it, you do what you find fun. Some people personally find training fun or at least worth the end results. If you are willing to put in the time and mouse-clicking then you shall be rewarded.

 

[TheTerrawr]

Yeah I am going to say that will never happen. Call me crazy, but I thought games were supposed to be fun, not a chore on a schedule.

Since he's off.
"TL;DR If you don't put in the effort (effort != fun or interesting), you're just a rich kid with a bunch of expensive weapons that won't stand up to the test of battle, and that's how I think it should be." I am confused by this argument. Unless you think that somehow MCMMO skills are a measure of your IRL abilities, this makes no sense.

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Then that's completely a choice, not meaning anything is broken. It's purely you not wanting to do it. Doing it, you also get money, exp, items, and a fair bit more.

 

[Celeras]

Firstly, you are crazy

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Could you write me a subscription for that doctor?
"He doesn't like the same things I do. My diagnosis is he's crazy."(drunk)

Secondly and most importantly, training is not that easy. You are not forced to do it, you do what you find fun. Some people personally find training fun or at least worth the end results. If you are willing to put in the time and mouse-clicking then you shall be rewarded.

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You're taking IRL examples and applying them to video games. Games don't work like life.

Then that's completely a choice, not meaning anything is broken. It's purely you not wanting to do it. Doing it, you also get money, exp, items, and a fair bit more.

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I disagree and have already stated why.

 

[HydraBlaze]

You're taking IRL examples and applying them to video games. Games don't work like life.

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(facepalm) Games are not real life, but that doesn't mean they can't share some of the same characteristics. There are more ways than I could possibly list how this does not resemble real life, (for example, clicking a mouse to become an expert in sword fighting) but that doesn't mean you don't have to put in the same amount of time other people did. The main way this resembles real life is this: the people who put in the most time and effort are on the top. Need proof? I suggest doing /mctop.

 

[Celeras]

(facepalm) Games are not real life, but that doesn't mean they can't share some of the same characteristics. There are more ways than I could possibly list how this does not resemble real life, (for example, clicking a mouse to become an expert in sword fighting) but that doesn't mean you don't have to put in the same amount of time other people did. The main way this resembles real life is this: the people who put in the most time and effort are on the top. Need proof? I suggest doing /mctop.

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Then putting in the same amount of effort in a different way - not 'training' (grinding) shouldn't be a problem.

 

[TheTerrawr]

Then putting in the same amount of effort in a different way - not 'training' (grinding) shouldn't be a problem.

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But here is the thing. If it takes the same amount of time to grind, and you are complaining about the time needed... What's the point other than making more work for staff?

 

[HydraBlaze]

Listen, at this point I'm sorry if this sounds a bit rude, but then again it could be.
Instead of spending time complaining how you don't have time, spend the time you 'don't have' training.

 

[65jes89]

Or suggest an idea that would actually help me get involved in PVP thus making the game more fun for raiders.

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We gave you an idea. Several times. Go kill mobs. Honestly if you has invested as much time into darkrooming as this thread, you could probably be approaching level 300-400.

 

[Celeras]

But here is the thing. If it takes the same amount of time to grind, and you are complaining about the time needed... What's the point other than making more work for staff?

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/Sigh
I guess I could have explained this better.

My main problem with dark rooms is that they are boring, NOT the amount of time they take. The time they take just exacerbates that problem. If levels were faster it might be less of a problem but then people would be getting levels too quickly.

I am ONLY suggesting alternate (BUT EQUAL) ways of level, not faster or easier ways.

 

[Celeras]

Listen, at this point I'm sorry if this sounds a bit rude, but then again it could be.
Instead of spending time complaining how you don't have time, spend the time you 'don't have' training.

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We gave you an idea. Several times. Go kill mobs. Honestly if you has invested as much time into darkrooming as this thread, you could probably be approaching level 300-400.

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I don't have time because I don't always have a computer with Minecraft. Right now is one of those times.

 

[gridiron1024]

Another issue is people who buy regals for money would cause this system to become major pay to win.

 

[Celeras]

Another issue is people who buy regals for money would cause this system to become major pay to win.

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Yeah that was mentioned earlier. It is only one part of what I suggested though.

 

[Asmodeus35]

@Celeras can I just say the amount of time you have spent arguing on this thread you could have leveled axes to 250 from 0 easily.

 

[Asmodeus35]

May I also say that massive craft is themed after an MMO style and a pivotal part of MMO's is grinding, if you don't like that you are what we call a casual and can go back to roleplay or working for those who can fight/put the time into leveling.

 

[RadonDragon]

When you level grind things such as combat stats, you're sacrificing time that could be used grinding other stats,, such as alchemy, mining, repair, et cetera. It's a trade off, you level in the stats you want, but it leaves you empty in other areas. For example, if you mine on a daily basis, you'll have a surplus of ore and probably some tools to repair as well, however it might leave you dry in areas such as archery or fishing.

Well i'd rather smelt than grind mobs. I spend a lot of time mining and smelting anyway. I can get to level 30 multiple times out of one mining trip.

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There you go then, a lot of time mining can be looked at as grinding rather than mining itself if that makes sense to you.

Grinding itself is a game mechanic that comes with basically anything, there'll always be power leveling and even if a server doesn't run MCMMO, then grinding for enchantments still occurs. In basically every game in which a leveling mechanic is included there is a way to grind for levels.

Grinding is entirely an optional thing to do for pvp, and while you might lack the competitive edge that it can give you, there's still a chance that you can beat someone in pvp. If you don't want to pvp, then that's entirely fine and I can understand that decision completely, if you want to try pvp sometime then there are the war minigames and you can also ask a friend to pvp for fun, and return items at the end of the match.

 

[Celeras]

@Celeras can I just say the amount of time you have spent arguing on this thread you could have leveled axes to 250 from 0 easily.

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I just got done refuting this. I do not have access to Minecraft right now. So no, I couldn't have.

 

[HydraBlaze]

You need to realize something really important here and that is there is not an equal way that can be just as time consuming and just as boring. I'll agree training can be VERY boring at times. I've said this over and over again by now, but I feel the need to ever repeat this...

The playerbase is much more interesting when people do different things. Build if you like building, train if you like training, roleplay if you like roleplaying, but please do not blame a system that works perfectly fine for unwillingness to fight through boredom and time consumption.

 

[Celeras]

There is getting to be too many people to respond to and too much rehashing of the same arguments so I'm just going to end this discussion with this. In my opinion, decisions should be made based on the experience individual players have with the server. They should not be based on what some players feel about how others play on the server.

According to the poll, the majority of voters wish for more ways to level. Direction staff, do with that info what you will.

 

[gridiron1024]

According to the poll, the majority of voters wish for more ways to level. Direction staff, do with that info what you will.

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The poll hardly represents the server as a whole.

 

[Gwyndo]

Evidently if you think that, you don't have the knowledge to be able to makes decision about this kind of thing.

Traits matter. A hell of a lot. I can go from 10+ shotting someone in god armour, to potentially 2 shotting them with the right traits.

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Terarria, for the love of god, Teach me your 2 shottery ways