Archived Removal Or Editing To The Potion Crafting

[twinCatalysts]

This feature, when created, was flawed to a degree. It allowed the instantaneous creation of potions, which while powerful in itself, it was strongly offset by the fact that you only get 1/3 the potions you got from actually brewing.
This has now been thrown in the metaphorical garbage, and it now makes 3 potions for each ingredient; the same that it would through regular brewing. (Except it also makes 3 potions per one bottle, for some reason)

This has many, MANY negative repercussions and I believe this feature should be either removed, or turned back into the 1/3 potion formula from before.

First: PVP will be drastically effected. People will be able to craft potions on the battlefield when carrying the right ingredients, allowing them to technically carry up to 192 potions in 4-5 inventory slots. That's more than 3 double chests of potions in 5 inventory slots.

Second: It will completely demolish any sort of market that existed for potions beforehand, even though that was small due to inflation already.

Third: Alchemy in itself will become a useless skill, the only reason to ever brew is to get resistance potions, and nobody would brew enough to get to concoction level 8 when they could just craft every other potion.

This feature has many negative repercussions, and has no purpose even existing. It's only use is to make the game incredibly easier, and there is no reason for that. This will make the game incredibly boring to many people, and I am almost certain that people will begin leaving the server for this.

 

[HeartAched]

Oh I'm about to die? Let me just splash 192 potions of insta health 2! Great idea

 

[65jes89]

Nope. Sorry, but go to hell. I mean that in the nicest possible way . Honestly, I can't tell you how much damned time I spend brewing potions. I mean, like honestly, I spend hours and hours brewing potions. And then they're pretty much immediately all used the first time there's a major fight. In all honestly, it's the exact same thing as an autobrewer, except those were disabled to reduce lag. And there's is still reason to train alchemy, as you have the mcmmo pots, and most people use absorption and resistance potions, at the very least. When auto brewers were broken, it inhibited pvp quite a bit. I mean, for the power factions at least, who can, and frequently do, have 5-10 players on and fighting at once, 20 double chests of health potions will last maybe two hours. Max. In comparison, it probably took, at least an hour, hour and a half to brew all those potions, assuming the brewer didn't have to stop to get more ingredients, fill up water bottles, etc. But now, it's pretty much the same thing as adding autobrewers back, just without the lag.

As for crafting potions in battle, I don't think anyone will do taht anyway, as it takes up a lot of space in your inventory to make a full batch of pots, but if it really becomes a problem, staff can just disable /wb in pvp active, which will only allow fighters to brew strength and speed, which I don't think is really a very big deal, nor will it affect pvp much.

For the market, yeah whatever. The potion "market" was pretty much non-existent tbh. If anything, this will boost the gold market, as people will likely make more potions, which require large amounts of gold to make.

As for alchemy, so what? Alchemy is pretty difficult to train (imo it's the hardest skill to train), and it really doesn't do much but brew resist potions once you get past 500. So I don't really see what the problem with that is. Alchemy is the newest mcmmo skill, and pvp was just fine before, and I think it will be just fine now.

Finally, I honestly doubt anyone would leave because potions become craftable... Honestly if the only reason you play massive is to make potions go sit in a creative single player world and brew pots all day. I mean that in the nicest possible way.

Honestly, this has pretty much 0 negative repercussions, and will do nothing but improve pvp accessibility, which is a definite positive for massive. Adding in potion recipes is really just a workaround to re-add a vanilla feature which was disabled by massive.

 

[Alj23]

Nope. Sorry, but go to hell. I mean that in the nicest possible way . Honestly, I can't tell you how much damned time I spend brewing potions. I mean, like honestly, I spend hours and hours brewing potions. And then they're pretty much immediately all used the first time there's a major fight. In all honestly, it's the exact same thing as an autobrewer, except those were disabled to reduce lag. And there's is still reason to train alchemy, as you have the mcmmo pots, and most people use absorption and resistance potions, at the very least. When auto brewers were broken, it inhibited pvp quite a bit. I mean, for the power factions at least, who can, and frequently do, have 5-10 players on and fighting at once, 20 double chests of health potions will last maybe two hours. Max. In comparison, it probably took, at least an hour, hour and a half to brew all those potions, assuming the brewer didn't have to stop to get more ingredients, fill up water bottles, etc. But now, it's pretty much the same thing as adding autobrewers back, just without the lag.

As for crafting potions in battle, I don't think anyone will do taht anyway, as it takes up a lot of space in your inventory to make a full batch of pots, but if it really becomes a problem, staff can just disable /wb in pvp active, which will only allow fighters to brew strength and speed, which I don't think is really a very big deal, nor will it affect pvp much.

For the market, yeah whatever. The potion "market" was pretty much non-existent tbh. If anything, this will boost the gold market, as people will likely make more potions, which require large amounts of gold to make.

As for alchemy, so what? Alchemy is pretty difficult to train (imo it's the hardest skill to train), and it really doesn't do much but brew resist potions once you get past 500. So I don't really see what the problem with that is. Alchemy is the newest mcmmo skill, and pvp was just fine before, and I think it will be just fine now.

Finally, I honestly doubt anyone would leave because potions become craftable... Honestly if the only reason you play massive is to make potions go sit in a creative single player world and brew pots all day. I mean that in the nicest possible way.

Honestly, this has pretty much 0 negative repercussions, and will do nothing but improve pvp accessibility, which is a definite positive for massive. Adding in potion recipes is really just a workaround to re-add a vanilla feature which was disabled by massive.

Click to shrink...

"In the nicest way possible."

Insults player multiple times.

 

[twinCatalysts]

Snip.

Click to shrink...

If they do disable /wb in battle, that will give defenders an advantage, as they would be able to go into a home and use the workbench in there (also you can make the strength potions literally in the 2x2 grid)

It will not boost the gold market, as it will not improve the demand for gold. You will still be making the same amount of potions just instantly, as health potions are basically a necessity. It's like food, you only ever need to make more of it if you get more people.

"As for alchemy, so what? Alchemy is pretty difficult to train (imo it's the hardest skill to train), and it really doesn't do much but brew resist potions once you get past 500. So I don't really see what the problem with that is. Alchemy is the newest mcmmo skill, and pvp was just fine before, and I think it will be just fine now." Yes I agree. Alchemy is the hardest skill to train. So why would you ever bother training it? It takes a lot of brews to get to level 500, and what would be any other purpose for brewing than to get it there?

And the reason I say that people would likely start leaving isn't because it is about brewing. It is incredibly unbalanced. There's a reason that potions are so tedious and take so long to make; because it's a negative. It adds balance. Because really, what are the downsides to making potions? You lose a little bit of resources that pretty much has no use other than making potions and they're boring to make. Now what are the upsides? They're an absolute necessity for combat and can do a bunch of other great things (most downplayed due to traits, though)
What the server has done is tipped the already very fragile balance all the way to the positive (unless you consider the resources to be a big downside, which they really arent). That is a horrible choice in any game.

Now I recognize making something slow and tedious isn't the best choice in balancing, and there could be far better ones, but ultimately, taking away the negative without adding in a new one isn't a good choice of actions. With their previous model of 1 potion, there was a new negative, you get far less potions. And no, a 2 potion model wouldn't work either as it would not be a strong enough negative to offset a positive as strong as instant creation, people would just figure "What the heck, it's just one potion, I might as well just make them the fast way"

Also, if you find potion brewing to be that excruciating, maybe find somebody who doesn't?

 

[65jes89]

If they do disable /wb in battle, that will give defenders an advantage, as they would be able to go into a home and use the workbench in there (also you can make the strength potions literally in the 2x2 grid)

It will not boost the gold market, as it will not improve the demand for gold. You will still be making the same amount of potions just instantly, as health potions are basically a necessity. It's like food, you only ever need to make more of it if you get more people.

"As for alchemy, so what? Alchemy is pretty difficult to train (imo it's the hardest skill to train), and it really doesn't do much but brew resist potions once you get past 500. So I don't really see what the problem with that is. Alchemy is the newest mcmmo skill, and pvp was just fine before, and I think it will be just fine now." Yes I agree. Alchemy is the hardest skill to train. So why would you ever bother training it? It takes a lot of brews to get to level 500, and what would be any other purpose for brewing than to get it there?

And the reason I say that people would likely start leaving isn't because it is about brewing. It is incredibly unbalanced. There's a reason that potions are so tedious and take so long to make; because it's a negative. It adds balance. Because really, what are the downsides to making potions? You lose a little bit of resources that pretty much has no use other than making potions and they're boring to make. Now what are the upsides? They're an absolute necessity for combat and can do a bunch of other great things (most downplayed due to traits, though)
What the server has done is tipped the already very fragile balance all the way to the positive (unless you consider the resources to be a big downside, which they really arent). That is a horrible choice in any game.

Now I recognize making something slow and tedious isn't the best choice in balancing, and there could be far better ones, but ultimately, taking away the negative without adding in a new one isn't a good choice of actions. With their previous model of 1 potion, there was a new negative, you get far less potions. And no, a 2 potion model wouldn't work either as it would not be a strong enough negative to offset a positive as strong as instant creation, people would just figure "What the heck, it's just one potion, I might as well just make them the fast way"

Also, if you find potion brewing to be that excruciating, maybe find somebody who doesn't?

Click to shrink...

To start off, I'm pretty sure the only person I've ever met who brews for free is blizz, and he's not available 24/7.

And defenders can just put potions in chests, or just run inside. Doesn't really matter one way or another. If they're out of pots and have to run in, that gives the attacker ample time to run if needed and get stuff out of their backpack. Seems fair enough to me.

I don't think the gold thing is quite true. I don't think you quite understand how many potions pvp factions use... I have a pot room with about 200 double chests in it. About half of those are dedicated to health pots. On monday, I brewed 20 double chests of health potions. It took around 2 hours, as i had to stop annd get glass once or twice. Last night, all those pots were gone. And I mean, SunKiss is an incredibly small pvp faction right now. It's pretty much just 4 or 5 pvpers who are actually active atm. But in 4 days, we used 20 double chests of pots between just a couple people. So, since then, I haven't gotten around to brewing, as I haven't yet had time. Now, I can craft some potions and quickly use up some gold. Then, the next time I run out, I can also immediately make potions. Now, if I had to brew, however, there would be a couple days of down time before I used this gold to brew potions. So, I'm using just as much gold, sure, however, I'm using it more frequently, meaning that over an extended period of time I'll use quite a lot more gold, increasing the demand for it, and raising the price, which in massive's current economy, is generally a good thing.

As for the alchemy thing, I think you proved my point for me... don't really see what you're trying to argue with that.

Crafting potions isn't really unbalanced. It's essentially just a natural part of minecraft, except ordinarily it would require an autobrewer. (Which, btw, is incredibly easy to make). And Massive didn't intentionally disable it either, it was a side effect of slowing down hoppers to the point where they're pretty much useless. The negative is the cost for gold, because, although a dub or two of potions is cheap, it really adds up over time. A stack of gold blocks currently goes for around 300r (that's at the lower end of the range). A stack of gold blocks makes 9 stacks of gold, which in turn make 9 stacks of nuggets, so one stack of blocks makes 5184 stacks of gold nuggets. It takes 8 stacks of nuggets to make a stack of glistering melons, equating out to 648 stacks of melons. This then is mutliplied by 3, so you make 1944 potions, or 36 double chests, of health potions per stack of gold blocks. Let's say that lasts SunKiss a week. That means I'm spending 300r a week on health potions. That's literally almost as much as my land tax for the week (370r). And that's a very conservative estimate, for a low number of people. I honestly don't even want to think about Deldrimor. So, no, I think there's already plenty of negatives to making potions.

 

[twinCatalysts]

You're not looking hard enough, because there are multiple people in Tyberia willing to brew free of charge (myself and a member)

Good point there, I will concede on that.

I don't see your point here though. You will be using the same amount of gold to make the same amount of potions, as the need for them hasn't changed, only the time that it takes to create them. Need = Demand not Accessibility. The only effect on demand would be immediately after the introduction, in order to stockpile as many potions as possible as fast as possible, and then that effect would go away as people began to make them as they needed them. If you were purchasing your gold before, this change would not effect the amount you needed, and if you weren't purchasing gold, then it has no effect on demand.

I think I misunderstood what you said there then, it seemed quite contrary to what I was saying.

There are differences between this and an autobrewer:
A larger upfront price (land and resources)
And, it's /not/ instant
You still have to wait for potions to be made using that, with this that is not true.
And frankly, I'm not arguing that vanilla potions /aren't/ unbalanced, because they're one of the most unbalanced parts of the game imo. I believe that autobrewers not working on massive is a good thing for balance, actually.

What else are you going to use your gold for? It's not as if losing gold is a big deal. If you're paying for it maybe, but I'm quite sure a faction can get spare gold from mining and darkrooming without having to pay for most of it.

And besides, when the positives of brewing are /that/ powerful, that they become a necessity, you are going to need strong negatives to balance it, and I, personally, don't believe that the cost of the materials is enough for that.
Consider this.
The cost of a double chest of potions is usually about 40r
If 300r pays for enough ingredients for 36 double chests
Actually, let's just make it so that it's 360 for 36 double chests and make it appear as if it's even more expensive.
That's 10r per double chest.
If we take out 10 more r for the glowstone, sand, whatever else is needed
We still find that 20 of those r are paying for the time it takes to brew. A luxury tax you have to pay to not take the time to brew your own potions.
That's half the cost.
Half the cost, half the negatives
You want to take away that half
And, if that negative was enough to stop potions from being viable to make, more pvper's would just /buy/ their potions, because that's instant too. Not all of them mind you, but more. And I think we both agree that, they really aren't. They'd rather make their own and that's why the potion market is weak. It's not that bad that you have to brew; most of the time not even bad enough to pay for the work.

 

[MonMarty]

I think Cythyan helped implement manual potion crafting thus rendering this thread obsolete. Can someone confirm?