Archived Reforming The Surrender Terms

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Gumee

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Alright, so I recently had an encounter where a faction attempted to "surrender" to us. Now, I know this system has been designed to keep it as fair as possible. However, it's still very geared towards inhibiting PvP. The way I view it from my experience is that a faction can literally pay off a faction to leave it alone for 30 days. They have "the right to pay for peace". Now, for a server that likes to be "realistic" (at least I gather that from the RP community), that's horrifically inaccurate. If a party views the opposing party's surrender terms as inadequate in real life, there's nothing that would prevent them from denying the surrender. For a faction of our small size, 800 regals is max tribute. I'd consider that pocket change in the grand scheme of things. 800 regals doesn't nearly equal the potential a faction can gain from raiding. Basically, a faction could have thousands of regals worth of material to be obtained through raids, however they can just through 800 regals at us and prevent us from raiding for a month. However, if we were to surrender to a mega faction like Asteria or Tyberia we'd have to pay them over 2000 regals. Doesn't that seem a bit wack? Now, don't worry I'm not here to just complain.

Here's my suggestions for how to reform the strategy so that it's more fair:
1) Consider making Max Tribute based on the amount of players in a singular faction. Either make it so it's based on the size of both factions or potentially even a fixed amount. This somewhat limits factions from inviting a bunch of random noobs/alts/inactive members just to increase their max tribute.
2) Consider making it so that they have to pay more for a longer treaty. For example, they can surrender for 15 days, for less money than surrendering for 30 days. This will promote people to consider surrendering for less time to save money, but at the risk of being raided again sooner. This is also better for PvPers who don't feel like waiting a whole month just to kill people from a faction while still giving the option to the surrendering party.
3) Consider adding another repercussion for surrendering, like offering the party they are surrendering their weapons, leaving them weakened like surrendering should.

I'd like to here other ideas from people, especially about suggestion 1. I really think the current calculation is unjust, and I'd like to hear other's ideas because personally I don't think my ideas were all that much better than the current system in regards to max tribute.
Thank you.
 
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Max Tribute should not be changed. It protects the smaller factions from having to pay a lot to have people leave them alone.

I'm sorry I'm just a bit confused on this. I'm hearing that you don't like the way the tribute works because you are the smaller faction... Something that can be changed with recruitment.
 
Max Tribute should not be changed. It protects the smaller factions from having to pay a lot to have people leave them alone.

I'm sorry I'm just a bit confused on this. I'm hearing that you don't like the way the tribute works because you are the smaller faction... Something that can be changed with recruitment.


We don't want to recruit. Our faction consists of trust as we've all known each other for well over two years. We share everything and whenever we play we're usually in a skype call. Adding someone new into our faction would be incredibly awkward for all the existing members and it's a conflict we debate constantly. Every Vanosian is a Vanosian for life, that loyalty is hard to come by.

And yes it protects small factions from paying a lot, but what about small factions who need the funding war provides?
 
Perhaps... An idea would be the tribute would go on the surrenderers side always instead of smaller only. In the event that a new faction is surrendering they are most probably the smaller one anyway.
 
I'm going to start off by making something obvious. Today Asteria surrendered to Vanos. Looking at the calculations in the spoiler below, you can see why Vanosians would be upset over the tribute they receive over something they'd be forced to pay. Also a small disclaimer, I am just starting to learn about the surrendering mechanics. I believe my calculations are righ, and I have made them painfully simple and thorough. Please feel free to correct anything I might have gotten wrong.

I think this could be fixed by editing the equation used to calculate max tribute. Right now I believe the equation is: 50 regals per each faction member on the victor's side + a 300 regals base fee. Now imagine this crazy scenario, a single person in their own faction has managed to raid and force a surrender on a super faction such as Asteria or Raptum. If that faction surrenders to the single person (x=1), the following equation works out to: 50x+300=350. This means the minimum tribute anyone can get from a faction is 350 regals, as long as they are a single player. This information is pretty useless but serves as a good basis for the rest of the suggestion.
Asteria surrenders to Vanos
50x+300=Max Tribute
50(10)+300=MT
500+300=MT
800=MT
Vanos can only ever earn 800 regals from a surrender, maintaining our personal faction rules on recruitment.

Vanos Surrenders to Asteria
50x+300=Max Tribute
50(288)+300=MT
14,400+300=MT
14,700=MT

The difference in price is 13,900r, in favor of Asteria. Asteria is notably a larger faction than Vanos, a 278 member difference at the time this post was created. Now, if Asteria somehow forced a surrender on Vanos, they would be making a huge sum, even though they are a larger faction and in theory, should be able to actually force a surrender. Vanos, however, was able to force a surrender on Asteria today and only received a mere 800r comparatively, despite the task being theoretically harder.

The modification to the equation should be based on a conditional provision. As follows:
SurrenderedFac ≤ Victor's Member Count: 25(VMC) + 200 = MT
SurenderedFac > Victor's Member Count: 25(SMC) + 200 = MT

This system will allow smaller or equal factions to maintain ability to function after a surrender, as their loot is based on the VMC, not their own MC. As you can see the regal boni have also been reduced comparatively, which will further their protection as newer factions. Respectively, there is a bigger bonus for smaller factions in regards to forcing surrenders on larger factions. I think it is agreeable that being the small dog in a fight is harder, and by beating a larger entity, more reward is deserved. This system gives more of reward for accomplishing greater tasks, and protects smaller factions by limiting their surrendering fee.

Asteria surrenders to Vanos
Asteria MC > Vanos MC
25(SMC)+200=MT
25(288)+200=MT
7,200+200=MT
7,400=MT

Vanos surrenders to Asteria
Vanos MC ≤ Asteria MC
25(SMC)+200=MT
25(10)+200=MT
250+200=MT
450=MT

This difference is still quite large, 6,950r, but this time it is in favor of the smaller faction. It is easy for a large faction to raid and force a surrender on a smaller one. The expense should not be held against the smaller factions. In this system, smaller factions would have benefit against larger counterparts, while larger entities would be encouraged to 'pick on someone their own size'. They way surrenders currently work, having them shoved down player's throats forces situations of inequity, like what happened today at Vanos. If a system benefited an underdog, perhaps there would not be a fuss over the terms of surrender. I'd also like to add that the surrender fees are reasonable in comparison to the amount in the respective faction banks. Asteria currently has 30,790r in their bank, a 7,400r surrender fee makes sense.
 
You clearly dont understand the raid rules or failed to read them all together. The tribute in any war is 50 regals per member of the faction that is smaller so if you have 10 members and the opposing faction has 300 it would go by your numbers since you are the smallest faction no matter if you are the attacking or surrendering faction.

You can always negotiate for smaller tribute or lower tribute time for lower amounts the rule is that you cant make them pay max tribute for 15 days. If the max tribute is paid it is truce for 30 days. If they want to pay half for 15 days that is up to you to decide if you want to accept.

You are also encouraged to offer different surrender terms. Go look at the war declarations, people ask for heads, public surrender or the execution for the members of their faction in a public manner. So all of these things you are asking for already exists.
 
You clearly dont understand the raid rules or failed to read them all together. The tribute in any war is 50 regals per member of the faction that is smaller so if you have 10 members and the opposing faction has 300 it would go by your numbers since you are the smallest faction no matter if you are the attacking or surrendering faction.

You can always negotiate for smaller tribute or lower tribute time for lower amounts the rule is that you cant make them pay max tribute for 15 days. If the max tribute is paid it is truce for 30 days. If they want to pay half for 15 days that is up to you to decide if you want to accept.

You are also encouraged to offer different surrender terms. Go look at the war declarations, people ask for heads, public surrender or the execution for the members of their faction in a public manner. So all of these things you are asking for already exists.
Don't think you quite got what he's asking tuan :P

He's saying that the terms are too low, not too high, since he has a relatively small faction. Personally, I'm inclined to agree with you anyways (just recruit a few people and you have a higher tribute), but I just wanted to clear that up.
 
For a faction of our small size, 800 regals is max tribute.
However, if we were to surrender to a mega faction like Asteria or Tyberia we'd have to pay them over 2000 regals.

I dont think i did @65jes89 From his statements above he seems to believe the tribute in the same war would be different if the roles were reversed. When infact if Asteria raided Vanos and Vanos wanted to surrender it would still go by Vanos'es member count since they are the smaller faction in the equation.

For reference, this page is excellent at answering almost all the questions and definately adress most points in this thread
https://wiki.massivecraft.com/Warfare_Rules
 
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In reply to your comment about reality and tributes, it's very well known that if somebody offers the right amount of money, their enemy will stop, and probably come back later because they know that poor bugger is exploitable. When the Germans lost WWII, sanctions were put in place as well as fines, essentially the Germans were paying the Allied Forces to stay away (at least that's what I recall from pre GCSE history with a cleft pallete teacher). And besides, Aloria has no direct relation to the real world, aside from building themes, accents and dress codes, should we really be trying to match MC with Earth's customs? On the other hand, you are right. 2k for a temp truce doesn't sound fair at all. I hope you excel!
 
I dont think i did @65jes89 From his statements above he seems to believe the tribute in the same war would be different if the roles were reversed. When infact if Asteria raided Vanos and Vanos wanted to surrender it would still go by Vanos'es member count since they are the smaller faction in the equation.

For reference, this page is excellent at answering almost all the questions and definately adress most points in this thread
https://wiki.massivecraft.com/Warfare_Rules

Yes, that information was unclear regarding which faction max tribute is based off.

However, I think the main point is misunderstood. When you surrender, you lose. By definition you lose. So how come it doesn't necessarily feel like a victory? It's a really cop out option, espeically when a smaller faction is raiding. As I've already stated Max Tribute < The potential profit from war. Therefore it isn't a valuable decision to accept a surrender. The surrender doesn't have any weight to it, there's hardly any repercussion to the faction. 800 regals is nothing for a faction as large as Asteria.
 
If you declared war and waited for it to be approved then you would get more of a physical reward for it.

But the point with the surrendering is if somebody wants to surrender with Max tribute you are REQUIRED to accept it and truce for 30 days. It's not a choice to accept max tribute.

Also 800 really is a lot for asteria. Large factions have lots of land and lots of taxes to pay and lots of new buildings to fund.

And as I've previously stated. Your faction being the smaller one.. That's the reason Max tribute fees like nothing.
 
The entire point of the tribute system is to give faction a break. Asteria for example is being raided by atleast 3 factions at the moment. That means there are 15 hours every day they can have raiders around their base killing their people. To give them a chance to get a break or lower this amount of possible time raided they can surrender to one or two or all of these so their members can get settled in. If there was no option to surrender you could basically raid and raid and raid them and eventually nobody would be in that faction anymore or they would possibly also leave the server due to it not being fun for builders to be raided constantly for example. This is not a anti PvP move it is to accomodate the rest of the server that consists of builders, survivalists, miners, farmers that simply dont want to be raided all the time. This way raiders get paid atleast some money to leave them alone and they can gear up and get items and skills to actually possibly fight back. If you just raid every new player to death until they leave before they can actually get into the server and understand it your community of pvpers will never grow
 
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