Archived Keep The Current Shop System For /tp Market

Eccetra · Mar 11, 2016

Now, I don't normally make threads about these things as I'm normally cool to go with the flow for updates, but I really feel this is something that needs to be adjusted. The new massivelock system is insanely hard to use for shops, and I wholeheartedly believe that keeping signshop would be a better and simpler choice for players. Let me explain the flaws here:

The market has, and always has had immense lack issues. Due to the number of chests in a small space, there isn't really much that can be done here. The particle effects of massivelock, even with /lock visualize turned off, makes the tps very significant in the market. Explained!
Due to the nature of massivelock, shop chests can only be used if they can be opened normally. Many shops in the market use a format where the item within the chest is displayed above it. This can no longer be done, as the chest cannot be opened in this way, vastly reducing market shop space.
The previous premise of the market was that one could purchase a shop space, and then create as many locked chests within that area free of charge. Each individual chest now has to be payed for seperately, and re-purchased if moved, greatly increasing the total cost of renting a market shop.
Finally, massivelock is simply very complicated and convuluted to use when making shops. Even after making a ticket and reading the guide over and over, I simply cannot figure out for the life of me how to use it!
- The command tree is very long and tedious to have to repeat over and over for different items.
- Item names which require a space between words are unusable unless the ID code is used.
- ~~To my knowledge, you can only sell items in stacks of 64.~~ That was just my lack of knowledge.
- It is very difficult to remember exactly what you are selling, where it is placed, and for what price.

I understand that massivelock is a plugin made by your very own tech-team, and you want to make the best use of it possible. I really don't think however that it is the best choice for the market. The previous setup was using LWC in survival worlds and signshop in the market, and I believe this setup worked rather well. Could the answer not be to use massivelock in survival and keep signshop for the market?

Signshop is very familiar to players, and as it is completely visual and created through the use of signs it is incredibly easy for new players to pick up and understand. Massivelock requires quite a bit of reading, and while it does offer up a much easier system for survival protection, I do not think this is suitable for a market filled with chests with different items, in different quantities for different prices.

If you did want to keep massivelock for the market however, I do have a few general ideas that may make their creation easier:

Make a separate plugin or parent command for the shop system. Something like /shopaccount or /marketshop, which allows players to access these commands without the need to go through the whole /massivelock child nodes to get to it.
- This could be possibly be intertwined with the current /buyregion renting of shops, allowing players to lock chests these regions for free as was previous.
Allow locked chests to be opened even when there is a block on top of them. I feel like this would be a simple change to make, but would make a whole world of difference.
Disable massivelock particle effects in the market or lower them altogether. They can be rather obnoxious.
Create a guide specifically for making market shops. The current massivelock guide is rather sparse, and while it is sufficent for teaching players how to secure their bases, it barely touches upon the shop system. I had to create a ticket to learn the command for changing a lock to shop mode.

I feel like I had further ideas, but they have slipped from my mind now.

Either way, I hope this was a sufficiently kind and detailed enough thread to get my point across and offer up some alternatives. Obviously you're free to take it or leave it, but I don't think I am the only one who finds the new system unnecessarily difficult. In fact, I don't think many people have even tried to convert their shopsigns yet!

If you have any good ideas or alternatives, please post them below!

Thankyou for reading, and I hope my voice can be heard if the majority also agrees.
- Eccetra

Wumpatron · Mar 11, 2016

I definitely feel like a video with someone going through the process would help immensely, it's one thing reading it and it's another actually seeing it being done. Perhaps that would be helpful? Just thinking if that would help make sense of how massivelock works.

Zacatero · Mar 11, 2016

I voted for "other" above and here is why.

I TOTALLY understand where you are coming from when u say

Eccetra said:
The new massivelock system is insanely hard to use for shops,

however...
This really only applies to the lock owner since actually buying stuff from the shop is rather easy.

Also i spoke with @ulumulu1510 the other day (and i tagged him so he can give his two-cents later).. and he had mentioned that the Chestshop plugin was abandoned by its owner. Somebody was kind enough to update it since it IS opensource.

Now when making shops in the faction worlds, its WAY more efficient since it costs 10r for a chest shop that u cant edit the item, quantity, or prices, when locking a chest is way more cost efficient and u can change the settings for free!! BUT since the market allows you to switch the chest signs for free as many times as you want... that doesnt seem to be an issue.

Eccetra said:
Could the answer not be to use massivelock in survival and keep signshop for the market?

I vote for this. Mainly because of your reason behind lag but also because of the way the market stalls work. This way you can open chests even if u cant normally open it because of the chestshopsign. Although to be honest i wouldnt mind a market redesign but thats a topic for another day.

Wumpatron said:
I definitely feel like a video with someone going through the process would help immensely, it's one thing reading it and it's another actually seeing it being done. Perhaps that would be helpful? Just thinking if that would help make sense of how massivelock works.

Let me run it down for you. here is the process to make a chestshop that only sells Cookies for 2r sell 1r for 10 of them.

Make the lock: /lock create CookieShop
Edit the mode: /lock edit mode Shop
Add the pricepoint (while holding a cookie): /lock edit ShopPrices add item B2 S1 Amount10

And that third part needs to be done for each and every item, if you want to have a single chest sell/buy different items.

Omnomivore · Mar 12, 2016

Madus and Ulumulu addressed the shop plugin the other day in teamspeak.

There are no current plans to immediately remove the current shop system in market as the current system is not very buggy and is perfectly functional.

Players can choose to use which market option they prefer for their shop.

ulumulu1510 · Mar 12, 2016

Eccetra said:
The market has, and always has had immense lack issues. Due to the number of chests in a small space, there isn't really much that can be done here. The particle effects of massivelock, even with /lock visualize turned off, makes the lag almost unbearable in the market.

When visualize is turned off, no particle packets are sent to you. The "lag" is an fps drop caused by the many many chests that area already there. Yes, I also experience fps drops if I run around with /lock visualize on, but I do not need to have it turned on all the time. Visualize is a feature to be turned off during regular gameplaye and should only be considered a help if you are setting up chests/locks/shops.

Eccetra said:
Due to the nature of massivelock, shop chests can only be used if they can be opened normally. Many shops in the market use a format where the item within the chest is displayed above it. This can no longer be done, as the chest cannot be opened in this way, vastly reducing market shop space.

Eccetra said:
Allow locked chests to be opened even when there is a block on top of them. I feel like this would be a simple change to make, but would make a whole world of difference.

See, that is why we want players input on plugins. This is a good suggestion and should definitely be considered. Off the top of my head, I am not sure how to implement this, but I am quite positive that it is possible.

Eccetra said:
The previous premise of the market was that one could purchase a shop space, and then create as many locked chests within that area free of charge. Each individual chest now has to be payed for seperately, and re-purchased if moved, greatly increasing the total cost of renting a market shop.

I for one wasn't aware of this, but a solution can surely be found. One way would be to not take money for locks in the market, which can surely be arranged.

Eccetra said:
Finally, massivelock is simply very complicated and convuluted to use when making shops. Even after making a ticket and reading the guide over and over, I simply cannot figure out for the life of me how to use it!

The command tree is very long and tedious to have to repeat over and over for different items.

Item names which require a space between words are unusable unless the ID code is used.

To my knowledge, you can only sell items in stacks of 64.

It is very difficult to remember exactly what you are selling, where it is placed, and for what price.

In regards to that, the answer is simple, but long: Shopping is a very new feature and Cayorion simply didn't have the time to write up the guide yet. We released it in this un-documented state to see what you can figure out by yourself and what you will use it for. And you were clearly misinformed:

Yes, the command tree is long. Make use of clicking your way through. In all of my testing I do never type more than /lock and click my way through the command tree. For adding new items you can then repeatedly click /lock edit ShopPrices add and then fill out the item you want to sale ( /lock edit ShopPrices add <Item> <price info>
- <Item>: use "hand" for the one you are holding, it's the most convenient way
- <Price Info>: Something like "B2 S1 A10". The format is the same you know from ChestShops, with the difference that you can specify the amount you want to sell/buy for said price. It is important not to have a space between the letters and the numbers.
- Ex: /lock edit ShopPrices add hand B2 S1 A10, while holding a cookie would let you (the owner) sell ten cookies for two regals and buy ten cookies for 1 regal.
As said, use "hand" for special items. This way you can sell lore items and enchanted goods.
See the above, specify the amount.
use /lock edit ShopPrices show, to see wat you are buying and selling (as the owner). Use signs or itemframes to show your customers which items are located in which chest. For buyers, it's super easy. They open the chest and instantly see what items they can and can't sell/buy when hovering over the item. The item lore will shop the buy/sell price and the amount.

Eccetra said:
I understand that massivelock is a plugin made by your very own tech-team, and you want to make the best use of it possible. I really don't think however that it is the best choice for the market. The previous setup was using LWC in survival worlds and signshop in the market, and I believe this setup worked rather well. Could the answer not be to use massivelock in survival and keep signshop for the market?

I, personally, say no. Sure, the plugin (chestshops) is still usable, but it has it's flaws (coding wise) and will get harder to maintain the longer it takes. It's death is so to say foreseeable and I personally consider it being in a "zombie" mode. When full documentation has been established for MassiveLocks shop feature and some feature additions like the ones you asked for are implemented, the system get's easier to use. MassiveLocks shop feature is much more powerfull than chestshops and first and foremost safe to use in the future. So as time goes by, everything will settle down.

Eccetra said:
Signshop is very familiar to players, and as it is completely visual and created through the use of signs it is incredibly easy for new players to pick up and understand. Massivelock requires quite a bit of reading, and while it does offer up a much easier system for survival protection, I do not think this is suitable for a market filled with chests with different items, in different quantities for different prices.

You can still describe a chest and its content with signs, noone is stopping you from that. A good shop owner will tell the players through signs: "Open me to buy carrots!". The player will then open the chest, hover the carrots and instantly see buy/sell prices and the amount.
And of course, you can sell bettroots, patatoes and other items in the very same chest! We, the tech deparment, have the feeling that this "open a shop as if it was your own chest" is easy to use for players, as long as the merchant is clever enough to guide his customer to the goods.

Eccetra said:
Make a separate plugin or parent command for the shop system. Something like /shopaccount or /marketshop, which allows players to access these commands without the need to go through the whole /massivelock child nodes to get to it.

We will/can't spit it up into another plugin, but the parent command is a good suggestion!

Eccetra said:
Disable massivelock particle effects in the market or lower them altogether. They can be rather obnoxious.

Disable them yourself

/lock visualize off

Eccetra said:
Create a guide specifically for making market shops. The current massivelock guide is rather sparse, and while it is sufficent for teaching players how to secure their bases, it barely touches upon the shop system. I had to create a ticket to learn the command for changing a lock to shop mode.

That will happen, don't worry. As stated above, the documentation will be expanded as soon as the 1.9 bugs are fixed and we get back to active development/documentation writing.

Tl;Dr: There is no short answer to this, read it or leave it

ulumulu1510 · Mar 12, 2016

What just sprung in to my mind: Most people will not need to use edit their shopaccount. When you first change the lockmode to shop, it will automatically set you as the shops account.It tells you this in the chat, you should watch out for that

You only need to edit that if you (in some future) want to set up a shop for someone else, or for example have a coleader as the shop account.

Zacatero · Mar 12, 2016

ulumulu1510 said:
What just sprung in to my mind: Most people will not need to use edit their shopaccount. When you first change the lockmode to shop, it will automatically set you as the shops account.It tells you this in the chat, you should watch out for that

You only need to edit that if you (in some future) want to set up a shop for someone else, or for example have a coleader as the shop account.

I've tried to set the shopaccount for somebody else. It wont let you. I believe its to protect another person from randomly loosing all their regals

Madus · Mar 12, 2016

znake1468 said:
I've tried to set the shopaccount for somebody else. It wont let you. I believe its to protect another person from randomly loosing all their regals

This. That is completely true. Otherwise you could steal other peoples money. But in the future where adding factions or possibly other types of accounts is possible this will be very useful. It is also there for game staff to use so they can change the shopaccount if needed.

Eccetra said:
Now, I don't normally make threads about these things as I'm normally cool to go with the flow for updates, but I really feel this is something that needs to be adjusted. The new massivelock system is insanely hard to use for shops, and I wholeheartedly believe that keeping signshop would be a better and simpler choice for players. Let me explain the flaws here:

I should probably start by saying thank you! The shop system is not finished it blatantly admit that the system is far from perfect and can be improved. Thus your input is valuable, in the end you are the user.

Eccetra said:
The market has, and always has had immense lack issues. Due to the number of chests in a small space, there isn't really much that can be done here. The particle effects of massivelock, even with /lock visualize turned off, makes the lag almost unbearable in the market.

Just disable it. Then it won't affect you. Perhaps a player specific setting to decrease or increase particle amounts would be nice

Eccetra said:
Due to the nature of massivelock, shop chests can only be used if they can be opened normally. Many shops in the market use a format where the item within the chest is displayed above it. This can no longer be done, as the chest cannot be opened in this way, vastly reducing market shop space.

Great observation, the solution is probably to make it openable anyway.

Eccetra said:
The previous premise of the market was that one could purchase a shop space, and then create as many locked chests within that area free of charge. Each individual chest now has to be payed for seperately, and re-purchased if moved, greatly increasing the total cost of renting a market shop.

No it doesn't increase the rent price. Locking a MassiveLock is a one time payment. The issue with ChestShop was that you had to pay just to adjust your prices, which was obviously not a good idea. Now you can change the prices free of charge. The current price for locks is almost nothing, but perhaps price just for the market should be discussed.

Eccetra said:
Finally, massivelock is simply very complicated and convuluted to use when making shops. Even after making a ticket and reading the guide over and over, I simply cannot figure out for the life of me how to use it!

The command tree is very long and tedious to have to repeat over and over for different items.

Item names which require a space between words are unusable unless the ID code is used.

To my knowledge, you can only sell items in stacks of 64.

It is very difficult to remember exactly what you are selling, where it is placed, and for what price.

The commands can be shortened down. That will be investigated.
It is true that typing the item names is a pain. Simply hold the item in your hand and type "hand". Also in the future it will /always/ be the item in your hand.
Nope simply wrong. You can sell in ANY amount you want. People can take a stack out, put the amount they want into their own inventory and then put the rest back. So the amounts can be anything from 1 to 2.304 (max space in player inventory).
I disagree with your last statement. You can place signs or blocks to easily see which shop is for what. You can check the prices wherever you are by typing a command, or you can check it by opening the chest.

Eccetra said:
I understand that massivelock is a plugin made by your very own tech-team, and you want to make the best use of it possible. I really don't think however that it is the best choice for the market. The previous setup was using LWC in survival worlds and signshop in the market, and I believe this setup worked rather well. Could the answer not be to use massivelock in survival and keep signshop for the market?

Signshop is very familiar to players, and as it is completely visual and created through the use of signs it is incredibly easy for new players to pick up and understand. Massivelock requires quite a bit of reading, and while it does offer up a much easier system for survival protection, I do not think this is suitable for a market filled with chests with different items, in different quantities for different prices.

No that compromise is not possible. ChestShop is abandoned and will stop working at some point. There is some bugs with it and those will not be fixed and could possibly be worse in the future. Not to mention all the general benefits of having a plugin in-house (we can adjust it however necessary for our players, better integration with other Massive plugins, sharding compatibility, etc).

I also disagree that ChestShop is easier to use. From a buyers perspective it is more intuitive to use the chest as if it were their own. It also offers more customisability for the shop owner. Now they can put arbitrary signs on the chest, beforehand it was fixed. Not to mention that using the same locking system for normal locks and shops only requires you to remember how to use one plugin.
When the commands become easier, and we also add tab completion for the price info, I believe this system will be no more difficult than chestshop.

Eccetra said:
If you did want to keep massivelock for the market however, I do have a few general ideas that may make their creation easier:

Make a separate plugin or parent command for the shop system. Something like /shopaccount or /marketshop, which allows players to access these commands without the need to go through the whole /massivelock child nodes to get to it.

This could be possibly be intertwined with the current /buyregion renting of shops, allowing players to lock chests these regions for free as was previous.

Allow locked chests to be opened even when there is a block on top of them. I feel like this would be a simple change to make, but would make a whole world of difference.

Disable massivelock particle effects in the market or lower them altogether. They can be rather obnoxious.

Create a guide specifically for making market shops. The current massivelock guide is rather sparse, and while it is sufficent for teaching players how to secure their bases, it barely touches upon the shop system. I had to create a ticket to learn the command for changing a lock to shop mode.

A new parent command could very much be possible.
Yes allowing to open them even if there is something above is nice.
Just disable the particles yourself.
The current shop system is not as easy as it could be. For now, look at it as an alternative. There will be improvements to the documentation and usage will be simplified. We don't encourage everyone to convert yet. But if you want go ahead.

Eccetra said:
Either way, I hope this was a sufficiently kind and detailed enough thread to get my point across and offer up some alternatives. Obviously you're free to take it or leave it, but I don't think I am the only one who finds the new system unnecessarily difficult. In fact, I don't think many people have even tried to convert their shopsigns yet!

If you have any good ideas or alternatives, please post them below!

Thankyou for reading, and I hope my voice can be heard if the majority also agrees.
- Eccetra

Again, thank you very much for your input. We need this kind of input to improve our plugins.[/QUOTE]

Eccetra · Mar 12, 2016

@ulumulu1510 @Madus Thankyou for your replies! I wasn't aware that chestshop had been abandoned, and I can see how this would be an issue. Hopefully a few of my ideas may have been helpful anyway to help make the new plugin easier to use!

One thing:

Madus said:
No it doesn't increase the rent price. Locking a MassiveLock is a one time payment. The issue with ChestShop was that you had to pay just to adjust your prices, which was obviously not a good idea. Now you can change the prices free of charge. The current price for locks is almost nothing, but perhaps price just for the market should be discussed.

When you buy a market shop, it allows you create as many chestshops as you like in that area for free. (This includes editing signs, changing prices and moving chests.) When created in a survival world / outside of the market, they cost you regals, which is why the market can be good investment. Currently, you still have to pay the extra cost for the massivelock system inside of the market, so it does increase the cost of setting up your shop altogether. I hope that made sense!

Madus · Mar 12, 2016

Eccetra said:
@ulumulu1510 @Madus Thankyou for your replies! I wasn't aware that chestshop had been abandoned, and I can see how this would be an issue. Hopefully a few of my ideas may have been helpful anyway to help make the new plugin easier to use!

One thing:

When you buy a market shop, it allows you create as many chestshops as you like in that area for free. (This includes editing signs, changing prices and moving chests.) When created in a survival world / outside of the market, they cost you regals, which is why the market can be good investment. Currently, you still have to pay the extra cost for the massivelock system inside of the market, so it does increase the cost of setting up your shop altogether. I hope that made sense!

Yes, you more or less repeated what I said.

Zacatero · Mar 12, 2016

Is it possible to make it so you don't have to pay for locks while in the market world?

Also just a side note I realized… If the massive lock plug in overrides any other plug-in for access reasons.. Doesn't this mean that people could potentially share shops? I know people have wanted to do this for a while. Like if I added somebody to all of the chest in my shop they could edit and use it right?

Madus · Mar 12, 2016

znake1468 said:
Is it possible to make it so you don't have to pay for locks while in the market world?

Also just a side note I realized… If the massive lock plug in overrides any other plug-in for access reasons.. Doesn't this mean that people could potentially share shops? I know people have wanted to do this for a while. Like if I added somebody to all of the chest in my shop they could edit and use it right?

You can add someone as leader and they will have the same permissions as you.

Eccetra · Mar 12, 2016

Madus said:
Yes, you more or less repeated what I said.

Um... I really don't want to argue, but I'm not following here.

"The issue with ChestShop was that you had to pay just to adjust your prices, which was obviously not a good idea."
Not in the market you didn't. You payed the 300 (or whatever) regals for the shop space, and you could put down and change as many chests within the area as you liked.
"No it doesn't increase the rent price."
In effect, it does. Let me try and explain:

With chestshop:
. Rent the market space for 300r
. That's it! All chestshops made within are free, so there are no extra fees.

With current massivelock:
. Rent the market space for 300r
. Pay 1r to create the shopaccount lock
. Pay 1r for each chest within the area you want to add to the lock to make it usable/buyable from.
. The total price for setting up the market shop would amount to amount 320r, depending on how many shops you had within.

Zacatero · Mar 12, 2016

Eccetra said:
Um... I really don't want to argue, but I'm not following here.

"The issue with ChestShop was that you had to pay just to adjust your prices, which was obviously not a good idea."
Not in the market you didn't. You payed the 300 (or whatever) regals for the shop space, and you could put down and change as many chests within the area as you liked.
"No it doesn't increase the rent price."
In effect, it does. Let me try and explain:

With chestshop:
. Rent the market space for 300r
. That's it! All chestshops made within are free, so there are no extra fees.

With current massivelock:
. Rent the market space for 300r
. Pay 1r to create the shopaccount lock
. Pay 1r for each chest within the area you want to add to the lock to make it usable/buyable from.
. The total price for setting up the market shop would amount to amount 320r, depending on how many shops you had within.

I don't mean to nitpick but isn't 20r extra as a one time payment worth it for a more stable plugin?

Eccetra · Mar 12, 2016

znake1468 said:
I don't mean to nitpick but isn't 20r extra as a one time payment worth it for a more stable plugin?

I am a huge cheapskate with my regals
wHAT IF A FACTION COMES ALONG THAT I WANT TO BUY AND IM 20R SHORT THO

Madus · Mar 12, 2016

Eccetra said:
Um... I really don't want to argue, but I'm not following here.

"The issue with ChestShop was that you had to pay just to adjust your prices, which was obviously not a good idea."
Not in the market you didn't. You payed the 300 (or whatever) regals for the shop space, and you could put down and change as many chests within the area as you liked.
"No it doesn't increase the rent price."
In effect, it does. Let me try and explain:

With chestshop:
. Rent the market space for 300r
. That's it! All chestshops made within are free, so there are no extra fees.

With current massivelock:
. Rent the market space for 300r
. Pay 1r to create the shopaccount lock
. Pay 1r for each chest within the area you want to add to the lock to make it usable/buyable from.
. The total price for setting up the market shop would amount to amount 320r, depending on how many shops you had within.

When I say used to. I mean when the market was released and you had to pay to make a shop. That was changed because it became overly expensive to change prices.

Zacatero · Mar 12, 2016

Remember that this 20r extra payment is a ONE TIME THING. since you can rearrange ur prices for free with the command.

Sephite · Mar 14, 2016

znake1468 said:
Remember that this 20r extra payment is a ONE TIME THING. since you can rearrange ur prices for free with the command.

If you don't lose your shop that is..

I also wanted to leave here that putting more than one item in a chest for selling and buying could be a problem (not if you only sell them), because other people can then fill up your chest with one item only (I learned that the hard way ages ago by using two signs on a double chest with the old system).

I'm looking forward to this new system.

One more question: Will faction shops be linked to the faction bank?

Madus · Mar 14, 2016

Sephite said:
One more question: Will faction shops be linked to the faction bank?

No that is not currently the case.

twinCatalysts · Mar 15, 2016

Sephite said:
If you don't lose your shop that is..

I also wanted to leave here that putting more than one item in a chest for selling and buying could be a problem (not if you only sell them), because other people can then fill up your chest with one item only (I learned that the hard way ages ago by using two signs on a double chest with the old system).

Nope. If it's on the same lock you can have them sell any item to any chest with that lock. This can, though, cause problems, for instance if you have a chest that sells food, and it's on the same lock, you could have it filled with cobblestone someone sold you, and it would destroy your organization. I'd reccomend a two lock system, one for buying and one for selling.

Sephite · Mar 15, 2016

twinCatalysts said:
Nope. If it's on the same lock you can have them sell any item to any chest with that lock. This can, though, cause problems, for instance if you have a chest that sells food, and it's on the same lock, you could have it filled with cobblestone someone sold you, and it would destroy your organization. I'd reccomend a two lock system, one for buying and one for selling.

That's not what I meant but a different problem to take care of, thanks for mentioning! :3

Zacatero · Mar 15, 2016

Sephite said:
That's not what I meant but a different problem to take care of, thanks for mentioning! :3

I think I know what you meant. Regarding the multiple items in a chest. I think the multiple items thing is better for buying than it is for selling.

Sephite · Mar 15, 2016

znake1468 said:
I think I know what you meant. Regarding the multiple items in a chest. I think the multiple items thing is better for buying than it is for selling.

Definitely. If you buy and sell cookies and milk in one chest (with nothing else on that lock), someone could eat (buy) all your cookies and fill it up with milk buckets (or the other way around) and your next customer won't find any cookies anymore (with no sign on the chest this customer might not even be aware that cookies can be sold there - I haven't looked closer at this yet to find out if there is a possibility to see what the chest sells or buys even if it's empty when you open it).
The next customer can then just sell cookies to you if he/she is a) aware that it's possible and b) if he/she buys some milk first to make some space in the chest.

Zacatero · Mar 15, 2016

twinCatalysts said:
Nope. If it's on the same lock you can have them sell any item to any chest with that lock. This can, though, cause problems, for instance if you have a chest that sells food, and it's on the same lock, you could have it filled with cobblestone someone sold you, and it would destroy your organization. I'd reccomend a two lock system, one for buying and one for selling.

Or you could have the larger quantity items on a different lock altogether. Let people come sell to you to restock your chest.

MDeeDub · Mar 21, 2016

@ulumulu1510 @Madus
Just wondering if any of these things have been addressed yet in updates? Not trying to come off as pushy, I know there is a lot going on, just was curious if there would be some sort of announcement for when things have been updated. Like opening chests even if there is a block above them or new parent commands.

ulumulu1510 · Mar 22, 2016

MDeeDub said:
@ulumulu1510 @Madus
Just wondering if any of these things have been addressed yet in updates? Not trying to come off as pushy, I know there is a lot going on, just was curious if there would be some sort of announcement for when things have been updated. Like opening chests even if there is a block above them or new parent commands.

The tech department has been given quite a huge task with the Eula update, so bare with us if we are a bit occupied with that work.

Madus has made bug fixes and small improvements to the shop system, but not more. Other usability features are developed between eula compliant features we are working very hard on, but are not top priority right now.

As much as we'd like to focuse on whatever we want to develope, the continuity of the server is the higher priority.

Savantly · Mar 22, 2016

Eccetra said:
Now, I don't normally make threads about these things as I'm normally cool to go with the flow for updates, but I really feel this is something that needs to be adjusted. The new massivelock system is insanely hard to use for shops, and I wholeheartedly believe that keeping signshop would be a better and simpler choice for players. Let me explain the flaws here:

The market has, and always has had immense lack issues. Due to the number of chests in a small space, there isn't really much that can be done here. The particle effects of massivelock, even with /lock visualize turned off, makes the tps very significant in the market. Explained!

Due to the nature of massivelock, shop chests can only be used if they can be opened normally. Many shops in the market use a format where the item within the chest is displayed above it. This can no longer be done, as the chest cannot be opened in this way, vastly reducing market shop space.

The previous premise of the market was that one could purchase a shop space, and then create as many locked chests within that area free of charge. Each individual chest now has to be payed for seperately, and re-purchased if moved, greatly increasing the total cost of renting a market shop.

Finally, massivelock is simply very complicated and convuluted to use when making shops. Even after making a ticket and reading the guide over and over, I simply cannot figure out for the life of me how to use it!

The command tree is very long and tedious to have to repeat over and over for different items.

Item names which require a space between words are unusable unless the ID code is used.

~~To my knowledge, you can only sell items in stacks of 64.~~ That was just my lack of knowledge.

It is very difficult to remember exactly what you are selling, where it is placed, and for what price.

I understand that massivelock is a plugin made by your very own tech-team, and you want to make the best use of it possible. I really don't think however that it is the best choice for the market. The previous setup was using LWC in survival worlds and signshop in the market, and I believe this setup worked rather well. Could the answer not be to use massivelock in survival and keep signshop for the market?

Signshop is very familiar to players, and as it is completely visual and created through the use of signs it is incredibly easy for new players to pick up and understand. Massivelock requires quite a bit of reading, and while it does offer up a much easier system for survival protection, I do not think this is suitable for a market filled with chests with different items, in different quantities for different prices.

If you did want to keep massivelock for the market however, I do have a few general ideas that may make their creation easier:

Make a separate plugin or parent command for the shop system. Something like /shopaccount or /marketshop, which allows players to access these commands without the need to go through the whole /massivelock child nodes to get to it.

This could be possibly be intertwined with the current /buyregion renting of shops, allowing players to lock chests these regions for free as was previous.

Allow locked chests to be opened even when there is a block on top of them. I feel like this would be a simple change to make, but would make a whole world of difference.

Disable massivelock particle effects in the market or lower them altogether. They can be rather obnoxious.

Create a guide specifically for making market shops. The current massivelock guide is rather sparse, and while it is sufficent for teaching players how to secure their bases, it barely touches upon the shop system. I had to create a ticket to learn the command for changing a lock to shop mode.

I feel like I had further ideas, but they have slipped from my mind now.

Either way, I hope this was a sufficiently kind and detailed enough thread to get my point across and offer up some alternatives. Obviously you're free to take it or leave it, but I don't think I am the only one who finds the new system unnecessarily difficult. In fact, I don't think many people have even tried to convert their shopsigns yet!

If you have any good ideas or alternatives, please post them below!

Thankyou for reading, and I hope my voice can be heard if the majority also agrees.
- Eccetra

You make shop chest by:
/lock create
/lock punch (the chest you want)
/lock mode shop (Changes your locks to shops)

Hold item in hand that you want to sell.
/lock edit shopprices add hand bO sO aO
(b = buy price, s = sell price, a = amount of item)
For lore items you have to price each individual item.
For things like enderpearls, you price once, and all similar items in that shop are priced the same automagically

It's actually really easy, and I prefer it over the old system, especially when you forget to format the sign correctly

MDeeDub · Mar 22, 2016

ulumulu1510 said:
The tech department has been given quite a huge task with the Eula update, so bare with us if we are a bit occupied with that work.

Madus has made bug fixes and small improvements to the shop system, but not more. Other usability features are developed between eula compliant features we are working very hard on, but are not top priority right now.

As much as we'd like to focuse on whatever we want to develope, the continuity of the server is the higher priority.

I certainly didn't mean to sound impatient, I was just curious if any changes had been made. I know you are all very busy and working hard.

Omnomivore · Mar 29, 2016

The current shop system will remain until MassiveLock shops are thoroughly bug-tested and functional.

Until then, feel free to use whichever shop mode you prefer.

Keep in mind that, eventually, MassiveLock shop will replace the current shop system at /tp market.

Archived Keep The Current Shop System For /tp Market

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