Archived Different Tiers Of Factions?

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favoured

favoured

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Okay, here's the gist of this suggestion. Separate factions into different tiers/classes, each of them with their own cost and benefits.

Reasons:
Currently factions seem to be too indistinct as a word. If you state "I own a faction", it could mean you lead 3 members, or that you lead 100. This leads to a conflict between what people think a faction should cost and what indeed a faction is. People often state "factions should cost huge amounts of money, it needs to send people a message that owning a faction is like owning a kingdom" while some people just want to band together with 3-4 of their friends and make a small hamlet. By separating factions into different tiers, it might solve some of this faction pricing debate.

The Meat of The Idea:
Factions will be separated into the following tiers:


Village-
-Max limit of 15 members. .
-Costs 175 silver.
-Member and Officer ranks, as well as the leader. Titles are available, as well as truces/alliances/ enemies. Alliance chat is available.

Town-
-Max limit of 40 members.
-costs 300 silver, villages can upgrade by paying 125s.
-Member and Officer ranks, as well as the leader. Titles are available, as well as allies, truces, and enemies. Alliance chat is available. The faction has the 30% damage reduction benefit inside of its borders.

City-
-Max limit of 70 members.
-costs 400 silver, towns can upgrade by paying 100 silver.
-Recruit, member, officer, and leader ranks are available. Titles are available, as well as allies, truces, and enemies. Alliance chat is available. There is a 35% damage reduction inside of the faction borders.

Metropolis-
-Max limit of 150 members
-Costs 600 silver, cities can upgrade by paying 200 silver.
-All current faction classes are available, however there will be an additional 2 classes will be added which can be customized for specialization. Titles are available, as well as allies, truces, and enemies. Alliance chat is available. There is a 40% damage reduction inside of its borders.

City-state-
-Max limit of 200 members
-Costs 800 silver, metropolises can upgrade by paying 200 silver.
-There are 8 customizable classes, including the normal faction classes. The city-state can also have 2 people with the "leader" rank. Titles are available, as well as allies, truces, and enemies. Alliance chat is available. The city-state can also function as a small empire by acquiring up to 3 "vassal factions". There is a 40% damage reduction inside of the borders.

Capital-
Max limit of 500 members, will never degrade no matter what member count.
-costs 1500 silver, city-states can upgrade by paying 500 silver.
-There are 10 customizable classes, including normal faction classes. The Capital can have up to 5 people with the "leader" rank. Titles are available, as well as allies, truces and enemies. There is both an alliance and empire chat. The capital can form an empire of up to 12 factions, which function the same as vassal factions but without growth restrictions. The capital can have up to 5 vassal factions. There is a 40% damage reduction inside of its borders.

Vassal Factions:
Members of an city-state may create a town for free if they are at a certain rank inside of the faction, determined by faction perms set by leader. This town instantly inherits all truced and enemied factions of the mother faction. The town also enjoys a 35% damage reduction, but cannot enemy or truce independently. The vassal faction can upgrade to a city, with a 40% damage reduction, but may go no further than that.
 
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favoured said:
I doubt raids would be impossible. I mean, unless the faction's a city-state or a capital, it seems to be still fairly viable, and if the faction happens to be a capital, I figure they deserve the protection at that point, considering they had to have used more than 3000 silver for this, as well as kept a faction healthy for a decent amount of time. However, I'm not a very active pvper, so if the damage reduction's too high I can always lower it a bit if it is truly impossible to kill anyone on higher tier faction's land. Also, when has there ever been a time in Massivecraft history where 40+ godpvpers came together? Heck, even with the current system of factions that would be near impossible to stop. As to the troll factions, there's a reason benefits are limited to hamlets and towns, Also, there have been quiet a few troll pvp factions in the past, they aren't as rare as one might think, its not as if the 200 silver price point is a invincible shield. As to the endgame thing, there's nothing wrong with some options for further progression. If you feel like keeping a 30 player town for all eternity, good for you. If you want a huge empire or city-state, go for it.

Also, you keep saying that you have to recruit to get to higher tiers, which is wrong. If you want a metropolis, you have to recruit. If you want a city (the equivalent of a current faction), you just need money. Also, you don't have to levelhop exactly. If you have 600 silver, you can just pay it to get a city.

EDIT: Going off for the night, be back next morning.
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If you think that the 200 silver pricetag doesn't protect from troll factions, you are dead wrong. This server is not PLAGUED by the derp. It would be if your idea went through. Having stupid Townyclone baby villages and stuff would just open up the floodgates. And make more factions. More then we could possibly ever need. The land claim rule would be impossible to follow. Everything would be too full with tiny towns everywhere. Like, it'd be like what happened with the Kelmorian spawn. There wasnt even room to breath. Everything was factions onto of factions. It'd just be like that.. everywhere. Everywhere!
And, I didnt mean 40+ God PVPers. But, 3 or 4, plus like 30 other people to get up to that point (potentially all alts, just so that the god PVPers can get the damage reduction) and, no, it wouldn't be impossible to stop. Because nothing is unstoppable. And certainly not unraidable. In fact, I'd argue that a bunch of God PVPers might be easier to raid then defend against. Why? People arent good at defending. Its very evident in Siege and Castles. But, the ridiculous damage reduction (yes, if you knew anything about anything related to how anything works, you'd know its a ridiculous amount) would cause an INSANE increase in difficulty raiding even Mecharic. Like, he could stand up to the forces of Mag if they were to raid him (and I mean like, a team of their seven strongest versus him), just by the fact that he'd have essentially a set of iron armor over his 88-96% damage reducing God armor. Any damage that would have been done before, after being factored in to the god armor damage reduction, would be reduced again by 60%.

Your idea doesn't further progression. Your idea inhibits progression. And, it does it in a way where thousands of silver will go up in smoke just for people to get ridiculous and pointless buffs to their factionland just because they were able to slap together 60+ people for a week or two. Its a bad idea. It limits how everybody plays for all time. It creates a MASSIVE gap between noobs and veterans. It causes people to have to play on the server for multiple months to get even close to having a similar experience to regular factions. And it causes there to be unnecessary variables that make even more silver and time have to be wasted to satisfy this weird want to go higher then previously available. And in reality it barely makes empires possible, so its reason for implementation arent really as valid as taken at face value. It will create far more factions then necessary, but they will be phantom factions that can hardly brush their teeth in their state.
 
favoured said:
Thalan79 I was actually referring to some faction pricing threads. I was going to post a thread agreeing with one person who stated that factions should be over 1000s when I thought about what a faction is exactly. If we make the price of a faction 1000s, most of us imagine people buying factions to make grand empires with. However, there are people who just want a small community of friends to rule a faction with, so I thought I could possibly make something that would settle the faction pricing thingy rather nicely. If someone wants to play with 2 of his friends, he doesn't have to grind mobs for 40 hours, and if a random noob wants to own a capital faction, well, he'll have time to contemplate his decision while he's grinding.
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I don't think you know "what a faction is exactly." A Faction: A small, organized group. Or, a large organized group. Involved in a larger political group.
A faction is not a nation, by any means.
And people dont always play factions like kingdoms or nations. Like, for example, I want to play my faction, OuterHeaven, as a buisness. And I intend to. Your system treats me as if I am trying to start a nation. And I'm not. There is no room for me in your system. And getting a usable title costs far more then it should for something usable.
And then, your upgrades past it make me HAVE to upgrade to be able to stay afloat among the rest of the OP city states and capitals.
I'm not going to say much more on the matter unless you decide to again try to refute me, because I know Cay knows what he's doing-- and if he were to have a lapse of judgement, the staff will catch him before this would theoretically go through.​
 
favoured said:
Ah, could you clarify why? I'll see if I can address your concerns if you see any flaws in the suggestion.
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Well you see, last week I created a faction. I spent the good ol' 200s on it. Right now it is extremely small, with about 7 members in it. However, I hope that it will grow into a large empire some day. I don't want to continually have to pay hundreds of silver just to get a few upgrades. As it is, I have to spend all my earnings on building materials for housing, infrastructure, etc.. Even if for some reason this would unfortunately be implemented, it would be the fact that factions "downgrade" when they lose members, that I hate. I mean, say I have 70 members at one period of time, but then they go inactive and become auto kicked or something like that, my faction would be downgraded a tier and I would have lost all that silver I spent upgrading it, and it wouldn't even be my fault. It would be the members who left my faction's fault.
 
As a warning, any who post offensive content or excessively abuse ratings will be punished as this thread has just been brought to my attention.
 
Though i would like to improve the current faction Situation (See the threads) i have to disagree with this as it is way too complicated. What i would like would be an empire or sub faction System to bring different factionscloser together.
 
Personally, I like the concept. But, it appears to create too many disadvantages and not enough advantages to balance them out. Perhaps an advantage to having more players is some bonus claiming power. Also, tiny little groups should be able to enemy and ally too. Lastly, the whole paying for a bonus thing is ridiculous.

Overall, like the idea, but it needs some work. The idea of separating factions into different tiers is good, but maybe it could be left there, since it could be useful to know what kind of faction you're getting into.
 
I don't see anything that makes this idea worth implementing. All we'd end up with is tons of noob factions, and then the people who have money would be able to make themselves literally unraidable. The only wars that would be declared anymore is the noob faction leaders getting mad because someone stole a watermelon, and then that war ending in five minutes. The really good wars are done by the servers most powerful factions, and those would be completely gone. The whole system sounds cool, but in reality, it would blow up in your face, and all the "poop" in the world would hit the fan.
 
Okay, so here's what I've seen in the replies on this thread.

1) The idea of having a Hamlet makes it too easy for trolls to make factions.
Response: Yeah, I'll admit that Hamlets do make it a bit too easy for someone to get a faction. I'll either buff the amount it costs to get a Hamlet, or just remove it entirely from the suggestion.

2) The damage reduction is too ridiculous
Response : I'll nerf the damage reduction to make it so while city-states and capital's still have more than the average faction currently, its not that ridiculous.

3)People are concerned about how much money it would cost to get an average faction
Response: If you do the thinking, it really doesn't cost as much as it looks. You can get a Town tier faction for 300s, which is what a lot of people voted for on the faction pricing thread, and it comes with most of the benefits of a faction. However, after some thinking the higher tier factions might be a bit too pricy with the damage reduction nerfs, so I'll nerf the higher end ones.

4)You have to pay to get more members
Response: Currently, there is only 1 faction on Massive that has more than 60 members, at least to my knowledge. Therefore, a City tier faction would probably be able to suit most faction's, considering the amount of members for each average faction currently. A city faction will only cost around 350-500 silver now (haven't decided as I'm typing this), so I don't think its as extreme as some of you are making it out to be.

Also, what's with people going on mass "read more" rating spree's? About half of them don't seem to even make any sense... Anyway, if I haven't addressed your concern with this post, I apologize due to a relative lack of time currently. To sum it up, I've edited the main idea to be a lot less drastic in its changes and silver requirements, to make it less of a "more money, more power" situation.
 
I went to the 11th page of /f list, still only see one faction with 72 members.
 
KSTRandom said:
I don't think you know "what a faction is exactly." A Faction: A small, organized group. Or, a large organized group. Involved in a larger political group.
A faction is not a nation, by any means.
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Tell that to any faction that has created an empire ever. Their response will likely be "RAID THE NOOB!". I know because I've run multiple factions that could have been considered empires or nations. The most prominent being Hisoka, which was so massive I was able to create 5 factions out of it, each of which possessed 2 towns. So, my response to the first part of your post is a simple "lolm you are completely wrong" because this isn't the real world, it is a game on a server where "faction" can mean anything from an army (9thLegion) to a civilization (Hisoka).
 
Kirby12352 said:
Uhm....yeah...no.
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Do you have any idea how hard it is to keep a faction with even 50 members running? At any given moment around 1/2 to 2/3rds of them will never be coming back to the server. When I ran Hisoka, the faction topped out at 109 members, but only managed to sustain 80 or so on average. That was with 16 officers, plus myself, 10 towns, numerous allies, and loads of money. It is amazingly hard to simply sustain a true city like Hisoka was, so I do not find it at all surprising that none exist on MassiveCraft. It's easy to build a city mind you, harder to populate one.
 
Mecharic I feel yah Mech. When the faction Thaelyn was still around, it was a large powerhouse. I believe we topped out at around 150 members, with at least 1/2 of them being relatively active in the faction. To those who have never been in a position of authority in a faction that big, which still actively recruited at least 3 new members a day, you have no clue how hard it is. Every one of those new members want a house, title, job, etc in the faction. If they are like most new recruits, they are impatient and want it as soon as they join the faction. Dealing with new members was only a quarter of the battle. Each officer had to deal with internal affairs, external affairs, and everything in between.

Point being... Ohh... it's hard. A hard life.
 
I propose the following class system:
Band, Town, City, Kingdom

Band:
  • 2-12 individuals - Small bands of fellow fighters, travelers, singers, merchants. They are fairly common and easy to organize.
  • 75s to create - It's cheap to purchase traveling gear and some tents.
  • Claims 1 chunk per player - They don't need to farm, they live off the land through hunting and foraging.
  • Cannot ally other factions - because since when did a small band of freelancers have allies?
  • Simplified Leadership - Everyone is an officer, no faction leader exists. Bands are often friends or traveling companions, they vote (or fight) over what will be done. Only the collapse of the bonds that bind can these bands be broken (if everyone leaves the band disbands). (Officers, Recruits) "Everyone has a voice in this Band of Brothers"
  • /f create band <name>
Town:
  • 12-40 individuals - Towns are small entities that do not house large populations, but need to sustain themselves with various small families.
  • 150s to create (75s to upgrade) - It is more expensive to trek out and settle a new town due to resources and paperwork. Ah, paperwork...
  • claims 4 chunks per player - Towns need to feed themselves, thus, farms are needed for food, and space is needed for the town hall and warehouses for food storage.
  • Cannot Enemy Higher Class Factions - Towns don't make enemies. That would be silly. Since when has "Winter Village" waged a war against "City of the Gods" eh?
    • If they join a city they get the cities enemies and allies, but keep their own original allies/enemies.
  • Medium Leadership - All members are officers, except for faction leader. Towns of this size often do votes on what they must do, if they argue at all which is rare. (Leader, Officers, Recruits) "Do today what you did yesterday, and all will be peaceful."
  • /f create town <name> | /f upgrade town <name> | /f join City <name(of city)> [become protectorate of city]
City:
  • 40+ individuals - Cities are not small hovels sitting inside a measly porticus. They are large entities with populations far greater than a mere town, there isn't a practical limit to their size really. They are often surrounded by walls of stone, with castles or at the least forts/holdfasts.
  • 300s to create (150 to upgrade) - It is common knowledge that cities do not build themselves - they need a massive amount of resources and supplies in order to become a great city. They are centers of trade, and often have loads of money.
  • 8 chunks per player - Cities need to feed large populations. The vast majority of their territory is generally made up of farmland with a number of small or medium sized farming towns scattered through them. The city itself is usually very dense, with up to 4 people in a single chunk.
  • No Enemy/Ally restrictions, can join Kingdoms/Empires, can take on protectorates - Cities are forces to be reckoned with. They can take into their care small towns, often setting a tax on them or using them as farming communities and military outposts. They can also build or break an empire depending on the way they swing.
    • Notice: If they join a kingdom, all protectorates join that kingdom. City loses ability to make enemies on it's own. Cities take on the enemies of towns they protect.
  • Complex Leadership - Cities have a Lord or Lady leading them, with many lesser nobles and military leaders and merchant princes that help organize the entire mess. While the Lord or Lady posseses final power, the city cannot run with their strength alone. (Leader, Officers, Members, Recruits) "Lords and Ladies would be nothing without their people's support."
  • /f create City <name> | /f upgrade City <name> | /f accept protectorate <name(of town)> [accept a town as your protectorate] | /f join Kingdom <name (of kingdom)> | /f leave Kingdom <name(of kingdom)> (will cause auto-enemy of Kingdom and all member cities).
  • City-State Chat - /ch S(state): Allows chatting between the various protectorates of the city and city members.
Kingdom:
  • 40+ individuals - Kingdoms are lead by the capitol city. The capitol city is merely the city in which the crown sits upon their throne.
  • 900s to create (600s upgrade price) - Roads must be built! Bribes Paid, Armies Hired, Fleets Constructed, Weapons Forged! Kingdoms are not cheap things to make!
  • 100s MONTHLY payment to remain a city - Similar to above, Roads must be Maintained, Armies Fed, Fleets Supplied, Weapons Upgraded, Officials Bribed, Thrones Built! Maintaining a kingdom is very expensive.
  • No Enemy/Ally Restrictions, can add cities to the Kingdom - Kingdoms are not forged from a single city, they are built out of many cities! They must protect those cities however, and take on any enemies those cities get. Likewise, cities protect the kingdom, an enemy of the kingdom is an enemy of all the cities.
  • Complex Leadership - Kingdoms are MUCH more complex, but the capitol is the same as an ordinary city. (Leader, Officers, Members, Recruits). The King must balance politics with member cities on his own, as a true king can.
  • /f create Kingdom <name> | /f upgrade Kingdom <name> | /f accept City <name(of city)> | /f kick City <name(of city)
Here's how it would work in practice:
Faction Nations.png

Translated to Forum Talk: Kingdom Factions can control City Factions, and share enemies. Enemy a Kingdom (or be enemies by one) and all of it's cities enemy you by default. Their protectorate towns ALSO enemy you by default. Likewise, ally a Kingdom (not joining, allying) and all of your Protectorates, Cities, and Towns will ally them by default. They will be unable to enemy any cities or towns that are part of the other kingdom ("Your kingdom forbids enemying this <town/city> because you are allies!"). This will cause wars between "Coalitions" and "Empires" and "Kingdoms" to be REAL. All towns and cities that are part of the Kingdoms involved will be enemies of each other, and thus at war. They will be able to kill one another and fight. Empires/Kingdoms/ext will be able to organize without allies knowing via Kingdom Chat, as will City-States and their protectorates. Thusly, there are different levels of government/organization that work similar to how the real world works. Naturally, actual numbers have been altered due to this being a game, real cities have tens of thousands of people in them. Good luck with that though!

So, lets see what happens with my idea.
 
Alj23 said:
Point being... Ohh... it's hard. A hard life.
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Yeah, sitting on top of hundreds of people... ordering them around... sitting in a guilded chair with all the power of the world... lol

Seriously though, until I purchased 40 dc's of sandstone from Sevrish the most silver I'd ever spent at one time was on tributes to people like McMuffin55 who raided my noob-built faction to get my silver -_-
 
Mecharic
That is a great idea, and I love the detail you put into it. I am glad you are taking this matter somewhat seriously (or extremely seriously, whatever makes you feel better).
However, I do not support it, mainly because I feel it takes away from the faction plugin. I like how the term "faction" is left extremely open ended by the standards currently set in place by the current plugin, and I do not want it to be quantified simply because there are a few people who demand that everything be extremely clear and precise. The plugin as of now is just fine, minus some minor things (the price of making a new faction the only thing I really see being debated, and maybe some command options). I do not see the reasoning for making it into what your proposal would have it.
To quote your own words:
So, my response to the first part of your post is a simple "lolm you are completely wrong" because this isn't the real world, it is a game on a server where "faction" can mean anything from an army (9thLegion) to a civilization (Hisoka).
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By implementing your idea, you would limit what a faction means, which is not something that should be done in my opinion.
 
Thalan79 said:
Mecharic
That is a great idea, and I love the detail you put into it. I am glad you are taking this matter somewhat seriously (or extremely seriously, whatever makes you feel better).
However, I do not support it, mainly because I feel it takes away from the faction plugin. I like how the term "faction" is left extremely open ended by the standards currently set in place by the current plugin, and I do not want it to be quantified simply because there are a few people who demand that everything be extremely clear and precise. The plugin as of now is just fine, minus some minor things (the price of making a new faction the only thing I really see being debated, and maybe some command options). I do not see the reasoning for making it into what your proposal would have it.
To quote your own words:

By implementing your idea, you would limit what a faction means, which is not something that should be done in my opinion.
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Hmmm... I was hoping that would be a bit of a compromise because it needed both members and money (meaning that a lazy guy like me couldn't make a kingdom). While I do agree that there should always be wiggle room I also think that too much wiggle room is bad for the roleplay of MassiveCraft. EX: I once ran a faction with 3 members, all of them my accounts. The faction was a town and COULD have expanded into a large enough slab of territory to be considered a large town - with only 3 members. My suggestion is more to expand the abilities of factions over time while also ensuring that recruitment continues - the 100s a month for a kingdom is a major money sink too.
 
Mecharic
I get what you're saying, but I kinda like the amount of wiggle room there is. Also, given that premiums make something like 75s month for existing, all a kingdom would need is two premiums and they would be set forever. So I think what would happen is we would see a lot of 32 to 64 chunk kingdoms in the world, filled with premiums only. Take that as you will, positive or negative, but that is not something I would like to see.
 
Well currently I'm pretty hopeful that the money benefit for premiums will get nerfed, as if it isn't I might have to move all the prices up in this suggestion up a few hundred silver...
 
Thalan79 said:
Mecharic
I get what you're saying, but I kinda like the amount of wiggle room there is. Also, given that premiums make something like 75s month for existing, all a kingdom would need is two premiums and they would be set forever. So I think what would happen is we would see a lot of 32 to 64 chunk kingdoms in the world, filled with premiums only. Take that as you will, positive or negative, but that is not something I would like to see.
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Well, I was going off of the old silver value... triple all of my values because of Premium Payment. And make the monthly payment 500s instead of 100s.
 
Thalan79 said:
Mecharic
Which would only really make it so Premiums can maintain kingdoms. Again, take it as you will, good or bad.
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I didn't make the whole premium benefits thing... go complain to Cayorion and MonMarty about their complete destruction of all things silver related. So, if premiums didn't get 75s per month would my idea have better quality?
 
Mecharic
I never said that I felt the premium thing was a terrible idea, I actually like it in theory. However, seeing how you are making this idea after they made theirs, it is kinda you job to make your idea fit within what the server is at.
As to your question, I still don't think that it's a great idea. Quality was never in question, as your idea is extremely well written in my opinion. I just don't want to see factions become like towny, which your proposal would lead to. But to answer your question, yes it a higher quality, but that doesn't really matter to me mainly because that means discounting part of the server (because at that point you might as well throw out factions entirely, along with the economic system) and because I don't agree with changing the core of factions at this time.
 
Lately I've noticed the community suggesting a lot of new things: premium features, new chats, and in this thread, a rework of the beloved factions plugin. I personally would love to see a rework of the faction plugin to allow people to begin expanding on things, namely empire creation. While at this moment I am in no position to sit down and start thinking up some new features (also on a tablet, so hard to type and autocorrect and shizz), I think it would be beneficial to create another thread where everyone can go in and suggest their changes and additions to factions, and comment on other people's ideas, offering only constructive criticism. What do you guys think?
 
Mecharic
Close. I want the core of factions to remain the same.
Now, I am open to altering it so we can have empires/nations in addition to factions, as well as changing some of the mechanics (adding in a /f mute command, an /f warps, even the /f ban as well as upping the base price so its a little harder for noobs to create factions.) However, I would like to add to the factions plugin so its more open and more adaptable, not change it and force others to play the 'Empire' game.
Alj23
That is an excellent Idea, and I support it fully.
 
Cool, that sounds like it could turn out to be really productive.
 
Mecharic said:
Tell that to any faction that has created an empire ever. Their response will likely be "RAID THE NOOB!". I know because I've run multiple factions that could have been considered empires or nations. The most prominent being Hisoka, which was so massive I was able to create 5 factions out of it, each of which possessed 2 towns. So, my response to the first part of your post is a simple "lolm you are completely wrong" because this isn't the real world, it is a game on a server where "faction" can mean anything from an army (9thLegion) to a civilization (Hisoka).
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Well, actually, no. I'm not wrong. Because thats exactly what I said. A faction can mean anything. It isnt confined to a city or an empire and so it shouldnt be treated as such. It should be left free as it is, other then mabye some tweaks to the current system like an empire option that allows you to add factions to your empire
and empire chat and stuff
 
I don't see this ever happening, I doubt such a major change would ever happen and there are too many stubborn people who would put up a massive tantrum anyway. Too much resistance to change on massivecraft.
Though!
This would add so much depth to the factions aspect of the game for the people who play on this server because of the fact that it is home to the factions plugin.
It is a great idea that would increase the importance of factions, though it would require a lot of tweaking so it suits everyone.

Though from this idea I think we can take a few feasible ideas, such as;
Your idea about having more ranks classes/ranks other than recruit/member/officer. Perhaps factions could create as many of their own ranks as they need. Like /f rank create trusted-recruit
:)
 
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