Archived Damage Output In 1.9

[Sevak]

1.9 Damage Output
I brought this up in my thread "Important Changes" but that thread ended up being mainly about the /fix
issues. So here I wanted to discuss the damage in 1.9. In 1.9, Strength Potions now add three damage as opposed to the relative thirty percent of base damage as it was in 1.8. I was PvPing earlier and got this recording.

The player claimed he was not using resistance potions or god apples, but still was not dropping health at all. I couldn't even break the player's absorption hearts the entire fight. I had my usual traits, which include Axe Expert, and had Strength II Potions up constantly.

Not all fights have been this bad, I have been able to get some kills in 1.9, but even players with missing pieces of armor are hard to kill now. In 1.8 if one piece of armor popped you were dead 9/10 times. It also now takes 4 hits to kill a player without armor where in 1.8 it took 1 or 2. I have already heard the excuse "There's no point in PvPing I'll just lose armor durability," quite a few times due to how difficult is to get kills and the lack of value in god weapons. This is something I see needing to change immediately, the PvP is becoming frustrating and less interesting entirely.
@Lazzulai @65jes89 @spoonly @jquaile @Traxex20 @Tokugawryuu​

 

[greenman99]

Agreed!

 

[ItsNaga]

I Agree Sevak My Boy <3

 

[Tokuu]

I completely agree, the nerf to strength pots in 1.9 is something which has drastically hurt PvP. When you're doing sub 10% per hit to someone in build traits when you're completely potted up, there's something wrong. Fights last as long as armour does and that's really bad. It's almost impossible to fight anyone with any sort of counter trait build to you as no damage is done.
It is also incredibly easy to get inside saferooms now, with almost no deaths occurring outside of them. This is not what MassivePvP is about, and frankly it's becoming infuriating to even try.

 

[shinbun]

This along with the /fix changes are going to ruin pvp on the server. Along with premium changes, I feel a lot of valuable donators and other players may stop pvping and lose interest if this attack on pvp continues.

 

[Neckerei]

Yeah ive had many cases where sometimes an opponent i cannot even break the absorption the entire fight (And im hitting them) and other times i do so much damage to my opponent im dropping them 20+% each hit. Its deffinently inconsistent and with the the chances that a fight lasts till armor breaks is super high. Which in most cases isnt worth the god weapon becuase it takes so much to fix your armor you end up losing money. PvP at this point is just about the fun of fighting theres almost no room for profit at all.

 

[EternallyDarkX]

Pvp was broken the instant 1.9 came out ._. i miss the old /fix command... and there's just so many issues now, economy is broken, pvp is broken, prem is broken, everything kinda just killed itself when 1.9 came out (not blaming mods) ._.'

 

[Omnomivore]

1.9 Damage Output
I brought this up in my thread "Important Changes" but that thread ended up being mainly about the /fix
issues. So here I wanted to discuss the damage in 1.9. In 1.9, Strength Potions now add three damage as opposed to the relative thirty percent of base damage as it was in 1.8. I was PvPing earlier and got this recording.

The player claimed he was not using resistance potions or god apples, but still was not dropping health at all. I couldn't even break the player's absorption hearts the entire fight. I had my usual traits, which include Axe Expert, and had Strength II Potions up constantly.

Not all fights have been this bad, I have been able to get some kills in 1.9, but even players with missing pieces of armor are hard to kill now. In 1.8 if one piece of armor popped you were dead 9/10 times. It also now takes 4 hits to kill a player without armor where in 1.8 it took 1 or 2. I have already heard the excuse "There's no point in PvPing I'll just lose armor durability," quite a few times due to how difficult is to get kills and the lack of value in god weapons. This is something I see needing to change immediately, the PvP is becoming frustrating and less interesting entirely.
@Lazzulai @65jes89 @spoonly @jquaile @Traxex20 @Tokugawryuu​

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Thank you for your input on this PvP related issue. Do you have any suggestions for how these issue should be countered specifically? Feel free to expand even further, it is very helpful for staff when we have to look at adjusting things.

This along with the /fix changes are going to ruin pvp on the server. Along with premium changes, I feel a lot of valuable donators and other players may stop pvping and lose interest if this attack on pvp continues.

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I have to stop and ask you to take a look at your words here.

Staff are in no way attacking PvP. The server had to immediately comply with EULA and everything is still being balanced, observed, and worked on. The price on fix has already been nerfed once, and voting rates increased to help balance this out. It's not going to be perfect right away, but we are working on it.

 

[Sevak]

Thank you for your input on this PvP related issue. Do you have any suggestions for how these issue should be countered specifically? Feel free to expand even further, it is very helpful for staff when we have to look at adjusting things.



I have to stop and ask you to take a look at your words here.

Staff are in no way attacking PvP. The server had to immediately comply with EULA and everything is still being balanced, observed, and worked on. The price on fix has already been nerfed once, and voting rates increased to help balance this out. It's not going to be perfect right away, but we are working on it.

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Well reverting strength potions back to how they were in 1.8 if that is possible would probably fix the issue. Although I'm not sure if there were any other damage altercations that I'm not aware of.

 

[Omnomivore]

@ulumulu1510 What is possible, from a Tech perspective, in regards to altering potions effects (like strength potions in Sevak's example)?

 

[65jes89]

Strength potions could be reverted (my preference), or damage could be buffed globally. I can vouch though that between the lag and the damage issues makes Massive PvP pretty much unplayable. Hardly anyone dies other than safe room fights with no escape, which are honestly incredibly boring. It's pretty much just a waste pots and armor.

 

[Winterless]

Strength potions could be reverted (my preference), or damage could be buffed globally. I can vouch though that between the lag and the damage issues makes Massive PvP pretty much unplayable. Hardly anyone dies other than safe room fights with no escape, which are honestly incredibly boring. It's pretty much just a waste pots and armor.

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Hence why I use Archery traits, it's the only way to reliably deal damage at the moment.

 

[Sevak]

Another topic that I think is worth discussing that I forgot to mention in the original post is the damage output from archery is absolutely insane. People are complaining about being 2 shot by archers. I'm not sure about the reasoning behind this excessive damage from archery but I would assume there are people with very strong opinions about it. So I'll just bring that up here for everyone to talk about.
@Omnomivore

 

[Winterless]

Another topic that I think is worth discussing that I forgot to mention in the original post is the damage output from archery is absolutely insane. People are complaining about being 2 shot by archers. I'm not sure about the reasoning behind this excessive damage from archery but I would assume there are people with very strong opinions about it. So I'll just bring that up here for everyone to talk about.
@Omnomivore

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It's the fact that armorpen and harmstrike proc so often when using a bow, as the trait system dictates that it is a 30 percent chance to activate with a bow. When archer traits are not used, the bow is strong but not overpowered.

 

[Mightor]

Honestly, are people opposed to removing absorption and absorption2 traits as-well?

I found that ALMOST every single pvp build uses them, and they're just stupid to fight with. You land hits and don't knock down any hearts (which feels like you're making no progress), and then later in the fight someone's absorption will normally kick back in at random, and that unpredictability makes the fight less about skill. Like I hate it when someone's absorption breaks and then they get down to 60% and heal and boom, their absorption regens. I personally have hated absorption for a while now as it's the most overused trait that in reality should just be removed and then have all the other traits re-balanced around not having it.

Just my 2 cents. Otherwise yeah, boost that damage. Honestly probably like a +15% damage buff to everyone would be simpler than modifying the strength pots individually.

 

[Winterless]

Honestly, are people opposed to removing absorption and absorption2 traits as-well?

I found that ALMOST every single pvp build uses them, and they're just stupid to fight with. You land hits and don't knock down any hearts (which feels like you're making no progress), and then later in the fight someone's absorption will normally kick back in at random, and that unpredictability makes the fight less about skill. Like I hate it when someone's absorption breaks and then they get down to 60% and heal and boom, their absorption regens. I personally have hated absorption for a while now as it's the most overused trait that in reality should just be removed and then have all the other traits re-balanced around not having it.

Just my 2 cents. Otherwise yeah, boost that damage. Honestly probably like a +15% damage buff to everyone would be simpler than modifying the strength pots individually.

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Personally I quite like Absorption and would much rather have that in every trait build than something such as HarmStrike or Armorpen.

 

[spoonly]

Without using armorpen strike or harm strike, or not breaking a player's helmet, it is nearly impossible to do damage let alone kill someone.

 

[Jackmo_Jones]

Without using armorpen strike or harm strike, or not breaking a player's helmet, it is nearly impossible to do damage let alone kill someone.

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Pfffft even using my build that has Harmstrike, Armorpenstrike, Witherstrike, and Axeexpert I still can't kill people that aren't even good enough to get me in a single combo until I first break their helm and sometimes the boots too.

You get so much time to throw down heal pots with how slow you take damage that even a complete noob can stay alive under some serious punishment. It makes fighting more annoying than fun and I've actually just thrown a few matches because I flat out didn't wanna click anymore. I shouldn't have to speed click for 6 to 8 minutes straight every freaking fight. It's more of an endurance test than an actual test of skill.

 

[ulumulu1510]

@ulumulu1510 What is possible, from a Tech perspective, in regards to altering potions effects (like strength potions in Sevak's example)?

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With enough time to reasearch the situation before and after 1.9 changes, it should be possible to (almost) completly revert the potion effect to what it was before.

To tell everyone what is going on when you have to understand what potiin effects actually do. They usually get applied before we are able to hook into the game through bukkit, so we can't disable the +3 hearts (afaik), but we can detect when a hit is landed, check the potionseffects you have active, take three harts away from the damage and then "add" 30% again. Something along these lines is certainly possible.

If you compile me a list of the changed potioneffects @Sevak, I can tell you what is revertable and what isn't (and everything in between).

 

[65jes89]

With enough time to reasearch the situation before and after 1.9 changes, it should be possible to (almost) completly revert the potion effect to what it was before.

To tell everyone what is going on when you have to understand what potiin effects actually do. They usually get applied before we are able to hook into the game through bukkit, so we can't disable the +3 hearts (afaik), but we can detect when a hit is landed, check the potionseffects you have active, take three harts away from the damage and then "add" 30% again. Something along these lines is certainly possible.

If you compile me a list of the changed potioneffects @Sevak, I can tell you what is revertable and what isn't (and everything in between).

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There were actually only a couple changes:

• The duration of poison potions was reduced. Personally I think this is more than fair, and shouldn't really be reverted.
• Regeneration potions were reduced in length to match the length of other speed and strength and 1:30. This doesn't really make a big difference in the long run.
• Strength now does 1.5 hearts of extra damage per hit, instead of 260% as previously. This, I assume, is causing most of the complaints about damage.
• Weakness does 2 full hearts less damage per hit, as compared to one half of a heart previously. This should also be reverted (or just disabled entirely), as it is actually possible to completely null out someone's damage with this if they aren't using a strength potion.

 

[Kidmodo]

Could we just buff the Resistant traits or Expert traits. That would make the damage seem to be a little more

 

[Mightor]

This is from today. 1 pot, and even the pot wasn't really necessary I just felt compelled to throw one since my brain was telling me that I should be getting absolutely hammered.

BTW: The song is completely misleading. This wasn't epic or fun at all. I was listening to smooth classical music during this and it fit the mood perfectly.

Added Note: Using HealAlways. Only defensive trait needed anymore, completely replaces the need for Health pots. Every other trait is just offensive AF and still this battle was 0 kills, 0 deaths, 100000 damage to armor.

@ulumulu1510 : Your fix sounds like a really big hot-fix type solution. If you have more of these types of things in the code like "When you take damage, remove this and add this" remove them or PLEASE at least test them as sources of lag. I only notice unplayable lag during PvP, if all 10 of us at this battle were just standing around talking I guarantee there would be a less lag, so why is it that hitting each other causes lag? Obviously it isn't LWC.

 

[Neckerei]

Another topic that I think is worth discussing that I forgot to mention in the original post is the damage output from archery is absolutely insane. People are complaining about being 2 shot by archers. I'm not sure about the reasoning behind this excessive damage from archery but I would assume there are people with very strong opinions about it. So I'll just bring that up here for everyone to talk about.
@Omnomivore

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Last time i fought an archer with my normal trait set and god armor i got stun striked and the next 2 arrows killed me. Once your absorption breaks archers hit you for about 6+ hearts it seems.

 

[Jackmo_Jones]

I also have a recent clip of a 1v1 between @DoomDeath1313 and I where the fight legit lasted 11 minutes. Doom didn't die when I broke his helmet we fought for another 2 minutes after the helm broke and about 30 seconds after his boots popped he finally dropped.

I'd post the vid but it's not really exciting halfway through you can tell both of us just want it to end and our aim goes to shit due to fatigue from constant clicking.

Fights should not last that long it's freakin obnoxious. I come from a Call of Duty and Battlefield background where your death happens in milliseconds. Engagements just take too long now and its not fun at all.

 

[ulumulu1510]

@ulumulu1510 : Your fix sounds like a really big hot-fix type solution. If you have more of these types of things in the code like "When you take damage, remove this and add this" remove them or PLEASE at least test them as sources of lag. I only notice unplayable lag during PvP, if all 10 of us at this battle were just standing around talking I guarantee there would be a less lag, so why is it that hitting each other causes lag? Obviously it isn't LWC.

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I never implied this was anything then a "fix". There is a definit reason why developers don't like fixes and strive for solutions, but in the 1.9 case we are left with no choice.

If you want the perfect 1.8 PvP, it MUST be a 1.8 server. Please remember that without changing mojangs code (which we never do) we can't fully revert their changes. We have so far done what was possible, but even the their armor changes can't be reverted because it is far too deep in the lower layers of minecraft (not accesible to us).

There is no solution to these 1.9 revertion changes. There isn't. There are only fixes (well constructed ones, yes, but fixes). And I personally would rather not patch it around and do those 1.9 fixes all together, but the community (all of you) want us to do otherwise. We are doing our very best to not create any additional stress to minecraft, but having to monitor every hit, every potion effect to simply revert some behavior can certainly be a strain to the cpu. I have no actual time measurements, so I can't judge the situation properly.

So all I can offer is to research and do my best not to cause damage, but at the end of the day, we are just stuck with what 1.9 delivered us and have to deal with it. All of us.

 

[Jackmo_Jones]

Best solution I have seen so far was with traits. Why not just jack Unarmed/Axe/Sword expert up by a very large percentage?

They Quadrupled bow damage a while back when they were for all intents and purposes worthless so why not mess around with the other expert traits and see if we can get the Time To Kill closer to what it was in 1.8?

As it is now even if you remove all traits it is STILL hard to get kills on each other so this all really makes not one bit of sense to me. How in the hell were we supposed to get a kill if we had 1.9 attack speeds when we can't even get kills with no traits and jacked up attack speeds? What exactly was done on Massives side that is causing people to take no damage even when they have no traits to beef them up it's not like this on other servers.

 

[Winterless]

If that's the case @ulumulu1510 then why did you update to 1.9 AT ALL? Oh wait, "I don't care for the PvP community."-MonMarty

 

[Madus]

If that's the case @ulumulu1510 then why did you update to 1.9 AT ALL? Oh wait, "I don't care for the PvP community."-MonMarty

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What you are implying is simply wrong. The update to 1.9 was not done to annoy anyone or because there is parts of the community any staff member is indifferent about.
History tells us that when we are not running the latest minecraft version, we get fewer visitors, and the logical conclusion is that people want the newest version for some reason or another. I also doubt, although I have no data, that the majority wants to use 1.7, 1.6 or a later version. So if I am right, people want newer versions in the long run, even if changes are drastic right way. To answer your question the general consensus is that the tech department updates when we see fit from a technical POV. 1.9 made drastic changes to PvP and thus we could not apply all experience, thus we tried to revert disliked changes, it just seems we weren't thorough.

Also to anyone caring about the performance of changing potion effect results. Don't. That will be lightweight.

 

[Winterless]

What you are implying is simply wrong. The update to 1.9 was not done to annoy anyone or because there is parts of the community any staff member is indifferent about.
History tells us that when we are not running the latest minecraft version, we get fewer visitors, and the logical conclusion is that people want the newest version for some reason or another. I also doubt, although I have no data, that the majority wants to use 1.7, 1.6 or a later version. So if I am right, people want newer versions in the long run, even if changes are drastic right way. To answer your question the general consensus is that the tech department updates when we see fit from a technical POV. 1.9 made drastic changes to PvP and thus we could not apply all experience, thus we tried to revert disliked changes, it just seems we weren't thorough.

Also to anyone caring about the performance of changing potion effect results. Don't. That will be lightweight.

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So are any changes planned to damage output?

 

[65jes89]

So are any changes planned to damage output?

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I'm assuming they're planning to change the potion effects, and that he was referring to lag when he said the performance effect would be lightweight.

 

[Madus]

So are any changes planned to damage output?

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Not to my knowledge. I haven't got the chance to talk to any PvP staff members.

 

[spoonly]

Well if there truly is nothing we can do to increase damage, I would be on board with removing healthboost2 and absorption2 and making only healthboost1 and absorption1 available for use. People will actually have to use health pots and be somewhat decent at PvP to stay alive instead of just slapping on max heal traits and fighting till their helmet pops. Idk just a suggestion

 

[Winterless]

If there are no changes that can be made to damage, armor durability, or armor repair, it may have just started the culling of all PvPers on the server. Even now, quite early in the 1.9 PvP scene on this server, 90 percent of PvPers are starting to feel the strain of decreased armor durability and the boredom created by people taking 4 PERCENT per hit.

 

[Jackmo_Jones]

Well if there truly is nothing we can do to increase damage, I would be on board with removing healthboost2 and absorption2 and making only healthboost1 and absorption1 available for use. People will actually have to use health pots and be somewhat decent at PvP to stay alive instead of just slapping on max heal traits and fighting till their helmet pops. Idk just a suggestion

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Doesn't even make a difference I 3v1d Kidmodo, Feiooos, and Toku without any resistance or health traits and they still couldn't kill me. I even removed my boots and helm so they wouldn't break and I still didn't die. If damage isn't increased in some way then F this I don't enjoy 10 minute 1v1s it ceases to be fun after the first couple minutes and just ends up being a chore.

 

[feiooos]

Doesn't even make a difference I 3v1d Kidmodo, Feiooos, and Toku without any resistance or health traits and they still couldn't kill me. I even removed my boots and helm so they wouldn't break and I still didn't die. If damage isn't increased in some way then F this I don't enjoy 10 minute 1v1s it ceases to be fun after the first couple minutes and just ends up being a chore.

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Yes it feels like we don't have damage traits nor strength potion effects on. Actually, running 1 healing trait makes it hilariously impossible to die.

On a side note, I quite honestly would like you to stop hiding information to your advantage, like I've seen you do multiple times. You would have died if you did not have flywater. You didn't 1v3'd anyone. You hit and ran into water.

Everyone would die eventually due to the fact of no /bp access and that their armor would be shredded before they could save themselves.
Still, it takes too long to drop people's health, yes.

 

[feiooos]

This is from today. 1 pot, and even the pot wasn't really necessary I just felt compelled to throw one since my brain was telling me that I should be getting absolutely hammered.

BTW: The song is completely misleading. This wasn't epic or fun at all. I was listening to smooth classical music during this and it fit the mood perfectly.

Added Note: Using HealAlways. Only defensive trait needed anymore, completely replaces the need for Health pots. Every other trait is just offensive AF and still this battle was 0 kills, 0 deaths, 100000 damage to armor.

@ulumulu1510 : Your fix sounds like a really big hot-fix type solution. If you have more of these types of things in the code like "When you take damage, remove this and add this" remove them or PLEASE at least test them as sources of lag. I only notice unplayable lag during PvP, if all 10 of us at this battle were just standing around talking I guarantee there would be a less lag, so why is it that hitting each other causes lag? Obviously it isn't LWC.

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Don't abuse the potion stack glitch?

 

[Jackmo_Jones]

Yes it feels like we don't have damage traits nor strength potion effects on. Actually, running 1 healing trait makes it hilariously impossible to die.

On a side note, I quite honestly would like you to stop hiding information to your advantage, like I've seen you do multiple times. You would have died if you did not have flywater. You didn't 1v3'd anyone. You hit and ran into water.

Everyone would die eventually due to the fact of no /bp access and that their armor would be shredded before they could save themselves.
Still, it takes too long to drop people's health, yes.

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I hid no information and I'm sorry but land or water I can easily outrun you guys.

And couldn't I technically say you're hiding information by leaving out the fact the only thing that did any damage to me was the fireballs? Quit using flywater as a bs excuse. You use doors, and fireballs, and other bs stuff too so get over it.

 

[feiooos]

sigh im ez now =D

gonna stop changing the topic now.

 

[Winterless]

Don't abuse the potion stack glitch?

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Yeah, that needs to be fixed xD

 

[Mightor]

Don't abuse the potion stack glitch?

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They don't seem to care enough to fix it, I'm just using the features they give me as a player.