Why Massivecraft Is Not Pay To Win

[TheComputerGeek2]

Read entire post BEFORE commenting
and remember, flame/derailing content will be removed

What is Pay2Win?
Pay2Win means that no matter what you are trying to do, if you pay enough money, you don't have to do it. Pay2Win means that if you pay enough, you can do anything and beat anyone at anything. For example, if I wanted to get a higher axes skill than Traxex20, I could just pay a good amount of money and suddenly have my axes higher than his without me even having to do anything. As it is, I am a premium, but no amount of donating will get my axes higher than his.

How We Know MassiveCraft Is Not Pay2Win
For those who have not noticed, there is no way to pay MassiveCraft to ensure that you win against anyone. Premium, while it does have an advantage over non premiums, by no means does this ensure victory, thus the 'win' part of the pay2win, is missing. Furthermore, even with premium, you have to actually put in effort to be strong, another characteristic that differs from the pay2win system. In pay2win, you ensure you have a victory simply by donating more than the other player. Now, I have not used any of the mcMMO faction xp boosts, yet, my swords skill is a lot higher than some people who do use it (5th on swords currently). If this was pay2win, I wouldn't have that, simply because someone would have donated to have their mcMMO skills bumped.

So What Is Premium And The Donation Shop If Not Pay2Win?
Think of MassiveCraft as a subscription based software application. The application may allow you to use some features, and for some people that might be enough, but if you pay for a premium subscription, you get all the shiny new features. There is one fixed entry price for everyone. Everyone that has the full edition has the same features. While they will generally be able to overpower a non premium user, this is far from pay2win as they still have to work for it, in fact, I know a few people who are non premium and kill premiums on a semi regular basis. The other donations are like having additional resources temporarily dedicated to your project, provided by the seller. For example, if you had rented a compute engine, and an exceptionally large traffic flow came through for a while, you might want to temporarily have more power dedicated to it. It only makes things a little easier for a short amount of time. And like I mentioned previously, the faction mcMMO xp bonus really isn't a pay to win, I mean, otherwise, I would be much lower on the swords leader board as I have never used that shop item.
As far as game play is affected much, there are only 2 levels, premium and non premium. In pay2win, you would have many tiers of donators, where all it comes down to is who paid more. With MassiveCraft, you pay to enter, not to win.

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[MonMarty]

All of this ruling, all of this sayings.
This is a thread and I'll keep my opinion short and not well founded, because it's my tought. (It's like religion, you don't have any hard arguments you believe or think this way, you just do.)
Massive, is indeed, pay to win.
And actually I have an argument. 15%.

Click to shrink...

So, in short, you have an opinion, which you don't know why you have it, but you refuse to change it.

I think for the purpose of a discussion and discourse thread, that's kind of an entry that isn't helpful.

 

[Jemo_]

So, in short, you have an opinion, which you don't know why you have it, but you refuse to change it.

I think for the purpose of a discussion and discourse thread, that's kind of an entry that isn't helpful.

Click to shrink...

I have an opinion, which I will stand for, that I have no reasoning of but my own experience.
It's like someone asking you how to do a hard task that you've been doing for years on years, you know how you should you do this but you can't explain the exact way for another to do.
I can start a discussion but my ideas have been busted 20 times before, thus from now on I only state my opinion for it. Is it so bad? Well yes, I think that as much I'll state my opinion I'll give my reasonings, but I'll leave it there before people start breaking me down AGAIN.
Here have some reasonings.

-15%
-Traits really do change all pvp aspects a small buff on this concludes in Massive change, also gathering of stuff is 10 times faster with premium traits.
-No item drop, this makes people feel scared whilst pvping and make them play worse
-Bp, extra inventory for pots, building materials, just extra space that can save up valuable time+your life in pvp.
-The title, people would not joint my faction when I was a non prem, even when my premium friends called up people. Once I became premium the same people who were online suddenly wanted to join.
-Money, 750 will allow for an instant faction. Please let people unite for a faction, not pay.
-Portals, create a portal for fast travel. Saving valuable time, making money making much more easier + raiding too.
-Cannons, why won't you let non premiums use them? It's so unfair, if you do this why not take the ability to use a portal? I mean it's littarly super efficient in pvp, if you're a 'noob' faction and have some cannons installed you can easily weaken the enemy and have more chance in winning in battle.
-Faction power, this has been buffed so hard. I don't see why non premiums should have 20 chunks houses and premiums 60 chunks cities all by themselves?
-Mcmmo, faster exp gain would just make people joining and paying giving the advantage in months. Also reduced time, would make people in fights/people doing tasks wait 10 times longer to do the big load/fast gathering.
-(not sure if still here, but heads. Heads have value which will give premiums a + in money gaining.)
These all seem so small, but like I've said a million times before, you need to have experienced both sides to understand this.
I can't explain it, that's the problem, but this all together gives an amazing buff. Pvp wise and game wise, also RP wise because of certain traits.

I hope you understand that I have given up on fairing out non prems and prems because I've been shotdown so much before.
The only way I can think of making a fair community again is by adding the old ways with diamond armor and iron armor and races. Premiums weren't that interested in non prems and it was good as for balancing the game out.

I hope I made it right, but I don't need an awnser on this as I've gotten enough counter arguments already. Just take this into discussion as an idea and good luck.

 

[Alj23]

MassiveCraft is not Pay2Win because all the things that we get a result of premium or pay for, like the XP bonuses, can be bought with regals, which any player can generate.

I have never spent a single dollar of my own IRL money on MassiveCraft, but I have paid regals to someone to donate numerous times. Where the money came from doesn't matter, just that it was donated. All the premium features I have benefited from I worked to get. And any other player is capable of doing it too. If a non premium wants premium bad enough, he will raise the regals them himself, and find someone who's selling premium, and eventually get it. From there, if he wants to buy one of the bonuses for his faction, there are people that will buy it for him in place of regals.

Spoiler

I personally don't use IRL money because one I don't have a lot of it just laying around, and two I don't have access to a payal. Paying with regals seemed like the only alternative solution to being able to become premium, and the server being donated to.

 

[TheComputerGeek2]

I have an opinion, which I will stand for, that I have no reasoning of but my own experience.
It's like someone asking you how to do a hard task that you've been doing for years on years, you know how you should you do this but you can't explain the exact way for another to do.
I can start a discussion but my ideas have been busted 20 times before, thus from now on I only state my opinion for it. Is it so bad? Well yes, I think that as much I'll state my opinion I'll give my reasonings, but I'll leave it there before people start breaking me down AGAIN.
Here have some reasonings.

-15%
-Traits really do change all pvp aspects a small buff on this concludes in Massive change, also gathering of stuff is 10 times faster with premium traits.
-No item drop, this makes people feel scared whilst pvping and make them play worse
-Bp, extra inventory for pots, building materials, just extra space that can save up valuable time+your life in pvp.
-The title, people would not joint my faction when I was a non prem, even when my premium friends called up people. Once I became premium the same people who were online suddenly wanted to join.
-Money, 750 will allow for an instant faction. Please let people unite for a faction, not pay.
-Portals, create a portal for fast travel. Saving valuable time, making money making much more easier + raiding too.
-Cannons, why won't you let non premiums use them? It's so unfair, if you do this why not take the ability to use a portal? I mean it's littarly super efficient in pvp, if you're a 'noob' faction and have some cannons installed you can easily weaken the enemy and have more chance in winning in battle.
-Faction power, this has been buffed so hard. I don't see why non premiums should have 20 chunks houses and premiums 60 chunks cities all by themselves?
-Mcmmo, faster exp gain would just make people joining and paying giving the advantage in months. Also reduced time, would make people in fights/people doing tasks wait 10 times longer to do the big load/fast gathering.
-(not sure if still here, but heads. Heads have value which will give premiums a + in money gaining.)
These all seem so small, but like I've said a million times before, you need to have experienced both sides to understand this.
I can't explain it, that's the problem, but this all together gives an amazing buff. Pvp wise and game wise, also RP wise because of certain traits.

I hope you understand that I have given up on fairing out non prems and prems because I've been shotdown so much before.
The only way I can think of making a fair community again is by adding the old ways with diamond armor and iron armor and races. Premiums weren't that interested in non prems and it was good as for balancing the game out.

I hope I made it right, but I don't need an awnser on this as I've gotten enough counter arguments already. Just take this into discussion as an idea and good luck.

Click to shrink...

Yes, in this context, it is actually bad to state an opinion without backing it up.

Now, as you would have seen if you actually read the full post, this is not a pay to win but a pay to enter. You seem to not understand what pay2win actually means. This is a pay to enter, there is no way to top other premiums simply by paying more. Now, I am far from being a top donator, but, my stats are actually better than some of theirs, even though they have been putting hundreds into the server. Please read the original post more carefully. You did not address my point about premium and the donator shops while trying to make your own about it, which frankly, makes your argument much weaker. Pay2win means that you can pay to beat almost anyone.

 

[TheComputerGeek2]

So you never looked at the 15% buff and the traits + bp. I hope that you understand that would be the core of my arguments.

Click to shrink...

You missed the pay2enter.

 

[Mecharic]

MassiveCraft is pay to win the same way the sky is a ceiling: it's a matter of perspective.

 

[SkyScraper]

No matter what you say, no matter what arguments you give, MassiveCraft is pay to win. You may get these perks with regals as well, but using your own money allows you to get them faster than others, allowing for easier gameplay. Heck, back not long ago only premiums were allowed to wear diamond armor till popular demand got us to where we are today. 15 percent less PVP damage? 750 free regals per month? Portable BPS and CBs? 60 chunks worth of Faction power? Additional traits? Simply put, donating here gives you a higher chance of winning others scoreboard wise, or PVP wise. You also get perks which makes your life easier. This, is what Pay to Win is. Sigh. Though MassiveCraft isnt insanely deep in P2W perks, based on the hundreds of servers I went to, it's definitely near the top.

I mean no offense, thread starter, but I have no idea where you got your Pay to Win definition from.

UrbanDictionary:
pay-to-win
Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.

Blizzard:
Pay to win is when a game company sells stuff that gives an in game advantage through micro transactions

-End of rant-

However, it may very well just be a matter of perspective, and I believe I've made mine extremely clear.

 

[krios41]

UrbanDictionary:
pay-to-win
Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.

Click to shrink...

i see you used urbandictionary for that defenition, wich makes it in my eyes, invalid
(you haven't seen the crap on there, i just can't take things from there serious)

To everyone that thinks massive is p2w, let me tell you:
It's not, i'm premium and my mcmmo stats are good enough for decent pvp.
but no matter how you look at it, that 15% damage reduction i get? it doesn't help at all. Quiet often i find myself running away from a nonpremium in teh wilderness just because, if i don't, i get killed. When i check out that persons stats, often, they are lower then mine.
Whatever you say, premium (and mcmmo stats) means nothing if you lack skill.
I fully agree with thecomputergeek2 on his defintion and explenation.

 

[Mecharic]

I will now take this time to note that as a Premium pretty much half the server could kick my ass xD

 

[BenRekt]

MassiveCraft is Pay2Win, stop lying to yourself.

The bonuses received from premium are required if you want to really enjoy your experience in PvP, especially when it comes down to the fact that Premiums take 15% more damage and have 3 extra trait slots along with the extra trait points.

Keeping that in mind, Pay2Win the way Massive does it does not mean Massive is a bad server, it is needed to support the server. Plenty of games can be called Pay2Win, but that doesn't mean they are bad games.

 

[Lord_ArchAngel]

So pay2win confirmed?

 

[enderdragon]

Funny how it's always premiums arguing that it's not pay to win. Not saying I disagree it's just an observation.

 

[The Genie]

For example, if I wanted to get a higher axes skill than Traxex20, I could just pay a good amount of money and suddenly have my axes higher than his without me even having to do anything. As it is, I am a premium, but no amount of donating will get my axes higher than his.

Click to shrink...

Okay, so I didn't really keep the entire part of the post I was commenting on, but this sorta sums it up in general (at least to me). You get perks from premium. There's nothing wrong with that. The server needs the donations from premium and such to stay running, and if that means I occasionally get my ass kicked by a premium who put more time and effort into playing on this server, so be it.

First off, I'm a non-premium, but I have been premium before. Those were fun times. It gives you some pretty cool buffs, but they don't guarantee you'll win every fight.

This can be compared to League of Legends, for instance. If you don't buy Riot Points, then you have to use IP to get champions which means you don't get runes as soon, which will affect your strength in game, but in both of these situations, just putting in the time and effort will compensate for any slight advantages that those who pay receive. Premiums get regals so they can get more gear, and they also have the /fix command, but that is necessary to keep the server running. They also have the bonus traits and they don't lose their armor.

I understand if some people find premium a bit unfair, but that's how the whole world is, but worse: it's a pay-to-win world (except in the real world it's far more pay to win than here), but no matter what the situation is, dedication, passion, and hard work will always trump a few bucks.

Also, I have a rather relevant story from my own life, although in this case, natural intelligence is the advantage I'm talking about.

So, I'd say I'm fairly smart. I was in the advanced classes my whole life. Kids would get pissed off at me because I was getting grades they had to work hours for to get in regular classes, while I was easily getting A's in advanced my whole life (and also because I was a bit of a sarcastic smart-ass, and I still am). There were a lot of kids like that in my classes.

But, when some of them got into high school, they didn't know how to work hard. A few of the more academically-inclined kids who started in the regular classes are doing better than most of the people I was with in the advanced classes. It's because they never had to work hard and didn't know how to. They expected everything to be handed to them on a silver platter.

Okay, so now that story-time is over, I'd like to say just how irrelevant that seems now that I'm reading it, but it still has value. Just because you're premium doesn't mean you're the best. You have an advantage, but if you don't work hard and have dedication, you are nothing. A non-premium who actually gives a damn or two will probably always beat you.

EDIT:
Believe it or not, the screw-ups in my story actually aren't me. Just want to put that out there, not exactly sure why. Stay in school, kids (yes I'm still in school).

Even more edits: basically I got rid of the bit that made me look like a total dumbass because I really shouldn't talk about things I don't know much about.

 

[indyfan98]

I have an opinion, which I will stand for, that I have no reasoning of but my own experience.
It's like someone asking you how to do a hard task that you've been doing for years on years, you know how you should you do this but you can't explain the exact way for another to do.
I can start a discussion but my ideas have been busted 20 times before, thus from now on I only state my opinion for it. Is it so bad? Well yes, I think that as much I'll state my opinion I'll give my reasonings, but I'll leave it there before people start breaking me down AGAIN.
Here have some reasonings.

-15%
-Traits really do change all pvp aspects a small buff on this concludes in Massive change, also gathering of stuff is 10 times faster with premium traits.
-No item drop, this makes people feel scared whilst pvping and make them play worse
-Bp, extra inventory for pots, building materials, just extra space that can save up valuable time+your life in pvp.
-The title, people would not joint my faction when I was a non prem, even when my premium friends called up people. Once I became premium the same people who were online suddenly wanted to join.
-Money, 750 will allow for an instant faction. Please let people unite for a faction, not pay.
-Portals, create a portal for fast travel. Saving valuable time, making money making much more easier + raiding too.
-Cannons, why won't you let non premiums use them? It's so unfair, if you do this why not take the ability to use a portal? I mean it's littarly super efficient in pvp, if you're a 'noob' faction and have some cannons installed you can easily weaken the enemy and have more chance in winning in battle.
-Faction power, this has been buffed so hard. I don't see why non premiums should have 20 chunks houses and premiums 60 chunks cities all by themselves?
-Mcmmo, faster exp gain would just make people joining and paying giving the advantage in months. Also reduced time, would make people in fights/people doing tasks wait 10 times longer to do the big load/fast gathering.
-(not sure if still here, but heads. Heads have value which will give premiums a + in money gaining.)
These all seem so small, but like I've said a million times before, you need to have experienced both sides to understand this.
I can't explain it, that's the problem, but this all together gives an amazing buff. Pvp wise and game wise, also RP wise because of certain traits.

I hope you understand that I have given up on fairing out non prems and prems because I've been shotdown so much before.
The only way I can think of making a fair community again is by adding the old ways with diamond armor and iron armor and races. Premiums weren't that interested in non prems and it was good as for balancing the game out.

I hope I made it right, but I don't need an awnser on this as I've gotten enough counter arguments already. Just take this into discussion as an idea and good luck.

Click to shrink...

I agree completely. Though it is not P2W, it is very difficult to defeat a premium. There is a reason I hide in a bunker every time I see that dreaded orange name in the wilderness. A F2P will likely never beat a high-level premium. I wish there was a lower level cap to the damage bonuses of a skill, and everything past that was just a score. I've been around for a while. The gap has been widened and closed several times. Overall, the balance has improved, but new things still pop up.

 

[TheSilverSpectre]

pay-to-win[/URL]
Games that let you buy better gear or allow you to make better items then everyone else at a faster rate and then makes the game largely unbalanced even for people who have skill in the game without paying.

Click to shrink...

Urban dictionary is not a credible source in the slightest, its a form of social media designed for humor if nothing else

 

[TheSilverSpectre]

I remember being a non premium, and idolizing most premiums, thinking "Oh, when i become one, i will be a MC God" Well im not as you can tell, i still royally suck, and while i have noticed the advantages, Its hardly an impossible task to beat one. Premium is just extra momentum, nothing more, nothing less

 

[Kidmodo]

First off, I'm a non-premium, but I have been premium before. Those were fun times. It gives you some pretty cool buffs, but they don't significantly give you an edge over non-premiums. They're very helpful, but they don't really directly impact PvP or anything, other than the mcmmo experience boost, but you still have to put in a lot of time and effort for results.

Second, before anyone comes whining about how over-powered premium is, premium doesn't make people strong, it's just that lots of good PvPers here are premium as they wish to help keep the server running. If a non-premium and a premium who had the exact same mcmmo stats, gear, skill, and computers (and all other variables), I'd say the premium would win roughly 55% of the time. I haven't done the math, but I guess it makes sense with the 15% damage reduction. Still, that's not a huge deal.

Click to shrink...

I laughed. I stopped laughing. Started laughing again. And now I am typing this.

First off Premium is the most important thing when it comes to PvP besides actually knowing how to PvP with weapons and potions. One of the main reasons is that premiums get to keep their god armor passive true or flase, while all non-prems lose everything no matter what happens. Meaning that you have to constantly make more gear if they die often and spend more money on gear that they lose, also this makes them targets to PvPers since we can also get god gear out of killing them.

Secondly the 3 less traits and -75 points and not able to use and 2 traits is another factor that directly impact PvP since I can just put on speed2 and just chase down any non-prem without to much to worry about. Why? Because he would have to use speed2 potions which he would eventually run out of making them easy prey for someone that knows what they are doing.

Thirdly the 55% win rate is just flat out wrong. Me and @Wannag would probably be a good example of this in kitpvp fights. Since when we fight he usually wins 3 out of 5 fights, with every fight lasting until one runs out of health potions due to us being pretty even in PvP on this server. But if I were to go on my non-prem account he would win every single fight just due to the fact that the 15% buff would make me hit less making him not have to heal as often. Him using 2 traits which I wouldn't have access to (making him more of a tank and not have to use speed2 pots if he uses that trait). So my 2 out of 5 fights will go down to 0 even though we have the exact same mcmmo stats, gear, skills and computers and all other variables (maybe not ping if his Netflix is on <3).

*Edit: Vamps remove the whole trait argument but then that 15% becomes really important since I am sure anyone from Liath or Arthas can tell you about the 3-4 shots that vamps can do.

 

[The Genie]

I laughed. I stopped laughing. Started laughing again. And now I am typing this.

First off Premium is the most important thing when it comes to PvP besides actually knowing how to PvP with weapons and potions. One of the main reasons is that premiums get to keep their god armor passive true or flase, while all non-prems lose everything no matter what happens. Meaning that you have to constantly make more gear if they die often and spend more money on gear that they lose, also this makes them targets to PvPers since we can also get god gear out of killing them.

Secondly the 3 less traits and -75 points and not able to use and 2 traits is another factor that directly impact PvP since I can just put on speed2 and just chase down any non-prem without to much to worry about. Why? Because he would have to use speed2 potions which he would eventually run out of making them easy prey for someone that knows what they are doing.

Thirdly the 55% win rate is just flat out wrong. Me and @Wannag would probably be a good example of this in kitpvp fights. Since when we fight he usually wins 3 out of 5 fights, with every fight lasting until one runs out of health potions due to us being pretty even in PvP on this server. But if I were to go on my non-prem account he would win every single fight just due to the fact that the 15% buff would make me hit less making him not have to heal as often. Him using 2 traits which I wouldn't have access to (making him more of a tank and not have to use speed2 pots if he uses that trait). So my 2 out of 5 fights will go down to 0 even though we have the exact same mcmmo stats, gear, skills and computers and all other variables (maybe not ping if his Netflix is on <3).

*Edit: Vamps remove the whole trait argument but then that 15% becomes really important since I am sure anyone from Liath or Arthas can tell you about the 3-4 shots that vamps can do.

Click to shrink...

Well, fair enough. Sorry if I said stupid stuff. xP I am no PvP expert and should probably leave that area of this to people who are more informed on this.

 

[MagicalWetToast]

Read entire post BEFORE commenting
and remember, flame/derailing content will be removed

What is Pay2Win?
Pay2Win means that no matter what you are trying to do, if you pay enough money, you don't have to do it. Pay2Win means that if you pay enough, you can do anything and beat anyone at anything. For example, if I wanted to get a higher axes skill than Traxex20, I could just pay a good amount of money and suddenly have my axes higher than his without me even having to do anything. As it is, I am a premium, but no amount of donating will get my axes higher than his.

How We Know MassiveCraft Is Not Pay2Win
For those who have not noticed, there is no way to pay MassiveCraft to ensure that you win against anyone. Premium, while it does have an advantage over non premiums, by no means does this ensure victory, thus the 'win' part of the pay2win, is missing. Furthermore, even with premium, you have to actually put in effort to be strong, another characteristic that differs from the pay2win system. In pay2win, you ensure you have a victory simply by donating more than the other player. Now, I have not used any of the mcMMO faction xp boosts, yet, my swords skill is a lot higher than some people who do use it (5th on swords currently). If this was pay2win, I wouldn't have that, simply because someone would have donated to have their mcMMO skills bumped.

So What Is Premium And The Donation Shop If Not Pay2Win?
Think of MassiveCraft as a subscription based software application. The application may allow you to use some features, and for some people that might be enough, but if you pay for a premium subscription, you get all the shiny new features. There is one fixed entry price for everyone. Everyone that has the full edition has the same features. While they will generally be able to overpower a non premium user, this is far from pay2win as they still have to work for it, in fact, I know a few people who are non premium and kill premiums on a semi regular basis. The other donations are like having additional resources temporarily dedicated to your project, provided by the seller. For example, if you had rented a compute engine, and an exceptionally large traffic flow came through for a while, you might want to temporarily have more power dedicated to it. It only makes things a little easier for a short amount of time. And like I mentioned previously, the faction mcMMO xp bonus really isn't a pay to win, I mean, otherwise, I would be much lower on the swords leader board as I have never used that shop item.
As far as game play is affected much, there are only 2 levels, premium and non premium. In pay2win, you would have many tiers of donators, where all it comes down to is who paid more. With MassiveCraft, you pay to enter, not to win.

Rules of Responding
These rules are intended to keep this discussion civilized and productive, if you find them too demanding, then it is likely that you should not be responding to this thread.

• No Flame, this includes both direct and indirect attacks
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• If you have a question, you must still be specific about what points you are talking about as well as clarify what exactly you do not understand and why it does not make sense. If the answer already appears within the post, your post will be rated with a read again but not replied to as it means that you did not carefully read the post. There is no point in having unneeded posts pointing out every little detail that was missed simply because someone did not feel like reading the entire post.
  
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Click to shrink...

Note:
My opinions are my own and you do not have to agree with them I am simply stating my point of view.

-prem is a necessity to pvp
-the prem service makes this server pay to win (that is not a bad thing)
-without prem you have a disadvantage in every way
-your survival chance is lessened significantly without prem in a 1v1
-in a situation where you are fighting in a situation with a non prem vs 2 or more prems you have no chance
-the boosts you can buy provide a advantage
-to kill a prem as a non prem semi regularly requires lots of skill, tactics, and for you opponent to be below par of your pvp skill
-the people who regularly pvp and are known for pvp are all premiums
-saying "everyone has the full edition has access to the same features" is like saying everyone with the full edition is like having a backpack with all the things you need if you put someone in a forest with a everything they need they are alot more likely to survive than a person with only a small amount or supplies

 

[SkyScraper]

Urban dictionary is not a credible source in the slightest, its a form of social media designed for humor if nothing else

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I'll happily give you Pay to Win definitions from other websites as well. What I gave is just two of the many websites out there. How about from 3 gaming industry recognized companies?

mmoChampion:
Pay to Win means that you can obtain anything, whether its XP, gear, stat increases, etc. that is not obtainable by the general normal account. An Example would be an item ( can be anything really) that you can buy for $5 but lets say that a normal account would take 3-6 months to earn the same thing daily.

Warcraft:
Pay to Win would be when they introduce gear (or otherwise similar means) to attain stats that give you an actual gameplay advantage over everyone else, and that it can't be obtained without shelling out the real money or otherwise a longer amount of time.

Supercell:
Pay to win is if you can buy something that gives you an advantage over those that don't pay.

Trust me, they're all over the internet. Search around. ~

Also, did I mention that the reduced mcMMO cooldown allows for faster skullsplits or serrated strikes? Heck, even super breakers and tree fellers. I mean, that's gotta not be pay to win right?

 

[TheSilverSpectre]

I'll happily give you Pay to Win definitions from other websites as well. What I gave is just two of the many websites out there. How about from 3 gaming industry recognized companies?

mmoChampion:
Pay to Win means that you can obtain anything, whether its XP, gear, stat increases, etc. that is not obtainable by the general normal account. An Example would be an item ( can be anything really) that you can buy for $5 but lets say that a normal account would take 3-6 months to earn the same thing daily.

Warcraft:
Pay to Win would be when they introduce gear (or otherwise similar means) to attain stats that give you an actual gameplay advantage over everyone else, and that it can't be obtained without shelling out the real money or otherwise a longer amount of time.

Supercell:
Pay to win is if you can buy something that gives you an advantage over those that don't pay.

Trust me, they're all over the internet. Search around. ~

Also, did I mention that the reduced mcMMO cooldown allows for faster skullsplits or serrated strikes? Heck, even super breakers and tree fellers. I mean, that's gotta not be pay to win right?

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Think what you will, we arent unbeatable gods, or even gods for that matter

 

[Mecharic]

Why are we having this argument? If you think you need to pay to win then pay and support Massive. If you don't then win without prem. It's that simple.

 

[Tuxyz]

I'll preface this post by saying that I have paid for premium for myself, for other people and bought it with both regals and real money, and I have done it for months on end, I am not going to call myself a veteran of the server, but I have been part of a lot of things and spent countless hours on this server in both low and high level PvP for 2 years.

I will now take this time to note that as a Premium pretty much half the server could kick my ass xD

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I think that this argument is pretty irrelevant as someone who buys a 99% damage resistance could still lose versus people who have 0% damage resistance and no other advantage but skill & experience.

Money buys you an advantage on this server, I think that we can all agree on that point. Whether or not you buy it with your money, or you pay someone else to buy it for you, real money is spent to the server.

So in the end the exchange will always be money for perks and advantages.

Okay, so I didn't really keep the entire part of the post I was commenting on, but this sorta sums it up in general (at least to me). You get perks from premium. There's nothing wrong with that. The server needs the donations from premium and such to stay running, and if that means I occasionally get my ass kicked by a premium who put more time and effort into playing on this server, so be it.

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I agree.

This can be compared to League of Legends, for instance. If you don't buy Riot Points, then you have to use IP to get champions which means you don't get runes as soon, which will affect your strength in game, but in both of these situations, just putting in the time and effort will compensate for any slight advantages that those who pay receive. Premiums get regals so they can get more gear, and they also have the /fix command, but that is necessary to keep the server running. They also have the bonus traits and they don't lose their armor.

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Comparing massive to league is not fair imo, in League it is fully possible to play the game at either
1. A small disadvantage (Not having access to all the champions, and as such not being as versatile)
But a highly ranked player (Top 0.1%) can easily play only one champion and still excel, so this is easily worked around without any real loss.

2. No disadvantage
If you play for long enough you have EXACTLY the same things as everyone else, as someone who spent way too much money on League and still not having any advantage from it (Skins too addictive qq) I know this way too good.

Premiums gain things that non premium players simply don't have, this is probably necessary, but I am not here to discuss the premium system.

I understand if some people find premium a bit unfair, but that's how the whole world is, but worse: it's a pay-to-win world (except in the real world it's far more pay to win than here), but no matter what the situation is, dedication, passion, and hard work will always trump a few bucks.

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I mostly agree, but saying that it's unfair is simply derailing the initial point, we are discussing whether or not Massive is pay2win.
Honestly, if I had seen more good PvPers fight without premium I could give a better reflection on this, but I think the fact that over the duration of 2 years in active PvP factions I never saw top PvP fighters fight without premium speaks for itself.

I think that the system is slightly unfair, but it has balanced itself out with players buying premium for other players for regals, making enough regals per month for premium is plenty easy for it to be available for those that really want and can use it.

Just because you're premium doesn't mean you're the best. You have an advantage, but if you don't work hard and have dedication, you are nothing. A non-premium who actually gives a damn or two will probably always beat you.

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Somewhat true.

Think what you will, we arent unbeatable gods, or even gods for that matter

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Of course premium doesn't mean that you will all of a sudden start slaughtering experienced veterans of the server, but take two copies of a good PvPer and give one premium, who do you think will win?

The one with premium will always win in a fair fight.

Also, it's not only about the fight itself, but the long run.

Premiums will get more stats, armor, money etc, and as such will be richer, stronger and better off in the long run and in the immediate fight.


I noticed that I am sounding incredibly negative towards premium in this post, and that's not the case, I think that current premium is pretty fair, especially since the barrier of having a credit card isn't there, since you can buy it with regals.

 

[MyCatBubbles]

Probably the only thing that does bug me about Premium is pacifist and not losing your inv, xp and armor on death. I am 100% okay with everything else as I myself have taken out my fair share of premiums as a non prem.

 

[KyleDinny]

There is aspect that are pay to win in my opinion, as such the item drop is a little too harsh for the non premiums that have the constant worry of losing their items when fighting and a premium just has to worry about a 30 second grace period in which the only worry is splashing potions on the floor until they get the notification.

It is harder to kill a premium as a non premium and to be honest the reward for doing so should be larger, not smaller since you don't get anything 90% of the time due to the reason above.

In all however, I do believe that premium has had the most care and attention given by both the player-base reporting things they deem extraordinarily overpowered and the staff taking on board the suggestions and improving on the system it has been more balanced than it ever has been in my opinion. Maybe not the 50% mcmmo boost but I don't really mind. Just get your hard hats on and train it yourself.

 

[Oxoman]

I think the key point that is being ignored here is the statement:

"As far as game play is affected much, there are only 2 levels, premium and non premium. In pay2win, you would have many tiers of donators, where all it comes down to is who paid more. With MassiveCraft, you pay to enter, not to win."

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While I totally agree that premium is a huge advantage in PvP, the point being made here was that, once premium, shelling out more and more cash won't really get you a great deal more advantage. If we look at a game like Clash of Clans, buying gems let's you skip ahead to the part of the game where you win. The more you spend, the more you win, with tiny little fractions of strategy and skill. In MassiveCraft, once you're premium, you have to work to win.