Why Isn't There Non-ailor Nobility?

Grinning_Greaser said:
at least by my opinion. I hope I haven't caused you any aggression.
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The only aggression I had was the fact that you attacked me and my character when this thread isn't supposed to be about that.

And yes, people can try very hard to make something of themselves, and the Usque are a good example. But you're missing the point, there isn't supposed to be a 'sign up and win the lottery every time' mentality to this. I offered a suggestion that compromised so there was no thread, and work had to be put forward, while still offering incentives for people to TRY and WORK for what they want.

And isn't it a bit odd that Ailor can 'sign up and be noble' while those of us who do not (despite me having a Ailor noble character I can not say I particularly find her interesting) are offered nothing but busting our backs to get half of what an Ailor can get? There needs to be something that equates this equation, this discussion isn't bout offering non-Ailor nobility anymore, just something to reward them for their efforts, you know?
 
I'll put in my two cents then;

For the past three and a half years, my main character was a priest (Basium and now Aethelred). I started off as an Old Gods priest (lore likes to change quickly and at the time, Old Gods was still acceptable for nobility). Sure, Basium was a noble, but he was third in line and would never actually reap benefits of nobility other than having some financial backing for his alcoholism. But I digress.

I started as an Old Gods priest, back before the lore change. I was the only person to ever express interest, and had to basically work out and design activities for him on my own. Then we switched to Unionism, and I was a curate, then Reverend. And I sat at Reverend for a year and a half, attempting to try and get to the next rank. I attempted to gain power, to write writs of sin against bad people, I even held the first Unionist wedding service on the Server. I spent years, literal years, trying to move up to the next rank. I devoted my character to something that only one other person in the server had ever actually attempted to play. And I stuck with it, and tried new ideas, and saw where they failed and succeeded. And in the end, I ended up killing Basium off, in a very ironic religious way. And then I took up a Reverend with the Coens (Aethelred) and I finally got a step up after two and a half years of trying. And that position wasn't even one that I knew existed, and then I was a High Reverend.

You know what I did next when I finally got my goal? I kept pushing, and trying to gain something with my character. I had set out goals for him and I wanted to achieve them. To help me with this, I was an active member of the server. I attempted to help push the clergy along so that it actually had some value. I joined the Crimsons and began convicting heretics. All because I knew that I wanted something, and did not want to simply have it handed to me. I put in my time... and even today only a handful of people actually recognize the promotion (people continue to call Aethelred a Reverend and I've been a Minister for four months now).

But all that came out of actively attempting to affect a large part of the server, and especially attempted to impact the nobility, because I knew that to gain power in nobility, you need to be known.

When it comes to Kaleel, what I see is a qadir wandering around and strong-arming people. He doesn't care if he makes friends, only that he succeeds. And when it comes to nobility, you need to be able to make some friends. If you want to break down that barrier that's there, you need to do activities that show the ailor nobility that a qadir is worthy of ruling over others. You need to actively show you have grace and elegance to stand among families that have gone back for generations. You need to hold events that aim to impress, you need to strive to peacock, and you need to actually do something other than pursue justice. You are attempting to be the first Qadir to be granted a title, so you must replicate those you wish to stand with. Simply arguing that it isn't fair for players who choose ailors won't get you closer. And if they forget what you did already, then you shrug it off and try again. The road isn't closed, it just winds back and forth and up the mountain.
 
Doc_Cantank said:
I'll put in my two cents then;

For the past three and a half years, my main character was a priest (Basium and now Aethelred). I started off as an Old Gods priest (lore likes to change quickly and at the time, Old Gods was still acceptable for nobility). Sure, Basium was a noble, but he was third in line and would never actually reap benefits of nobility other than having some financial backing for his alcoholism. But I digress.

I started as an Old Gods priest, back before the lore change. I was the only person to ever express interest, and had to basically work out and design activities for him on my own. Then we switched to Unionism, and I was a curate, then Reverend. And I sat at Reverend for a year and a half, attempting to try and get to the next rank. I attempted to gain power, to write writs of sin against bad people, I even held the first Unionist wedding service on the Server. I spent years, literal years, trying to move up to the next rank. I devoted my character to something that only one other person in the server had ever actually attempted to play. And I stuck with it, and tried new ideas, and saw where they failed and succeeded. And in the end, I ended up killing Basium off, in a very ironic religious way. And then I took up a Reverend with the Coens (Aethelred) and I finally got a step up after two and a half years of trying. And that position wasn't even one that I knew existed, and then I was a High Reverend.

You know what I did next when I finally got my goal? I kept pushing, and trying to gain something with my character. I had set out goals for him and I wanted to achieve them. To help me with this, I was an active member of the server. I attempted to help push the clergy along so that it actually had some value. I joined the Crimsons and began convicting heretics. All because I knew that I wanted something, and did not want to simply have it handed to me. I put in my time... and even today only a handful of people actually recognize the promotion (people continue to call Aethelred a Reverend and I've been a Minister for four months now).

But all that came out of actively attempting to affect a large part of the server, and especially attempted to impact the nobility, because I knew that to gain power in nobility, you need to be known.

When it comes to Kaleel, what I see is a qadir wandering around and strong-arming people. He doesn't care if he makes friends, only that he succeeds. And when it comes to nobility, you need to be able to make some friends. If you want to break down that barrier that's there, you need to do activities that show the ailor nobility that a qadir is worthy of ruling over others. You need to actively show you have grace and elegance to stand among families that have gone back for generations. You need to hold events that aim to impress, you need to strive to peacock, and you need to actually do something other than pursue justice. You are attempting to be the first Qadir to be granted a title, so you must replicate those you wish to stand with. Simply arguing that it isn't fair for players who choose ailors won't get you closer. And if they forget what you did already, then you shrug it off and try again. The road isn't closed, it just winds back and forth and up the mountain.
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That was strangely beautiful...
 
Doc_Cantank said:
When it comes to Kaleel, what I see is a qadir wandering around and strong-arming people. He doesn't care if he makes friends, only that he succeeds. And when it comes to nobility, you need to be able to make some friends. If you want to break down that barrier that's there, you need to do activities that show the ailor nobility that a qadir is worthy of ruling over others. You need to actively show you have grace and elegance to stand among families that have gone back for generations. You need to hold events that aim to impress, you need to strive to peacock, and you need to actually do something other than pursue justice. You are attempting to be the first Qadir to be granted a title, so you must replicate those you wish to stand with. Simply arguing that it isn't fair for players who choose ailors won't get you closer. And if they forget what you did already, then you shrug it off and try again. The road isn't closed, it just winds back and forth and up the mountain.
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This, well, this has some good points for me. But I'd also like to bring the argument that Eira Sorenvik is similar to Kaleel in the 'strong-arm' factor and the 'only wanting to push her own agenda'. She is noble (for how much longer who knows). Kaleel has a personality, you know it all too well after working with him for some time in the Crimsons, and I think that your statements about him are valid.

So then I pose /this/ question, dear Doc. Should you alter your characters wishes for your own desire, or keep him how he is meant to be played and find a way to get where you want to be? Kaleel is not a leader, he's a soldier, he fights for the city (in his mind) and not for himself. He wants to represent those with little representation and HIS goal is not to gain land (it's my goal for him, that doesn't directly correlate to his thoughts. And he gained Duke-consort position through luck, and Apollonia), but simply fight the injustice that he sees in the city. He is a strong arm because that's the life he lives, and you state that he should be elegant, he can have a certain degree of this but he's a crude man that enjoys a bit of the Qadir liberal-lifestyle through his words, by not caring how he speaks (for the most part). If I were to suddenly change him to be like every other noble, concerned about the way he looked, dressed and acted, that would strip me of the entire point. Kaleel's entire basis is to find his path, and take what he can get from it.

People OOCly like/dislike Kaleel because of the way he is, and I would NEVER change him for the sake of my own desire. He adds a wrench to the noble scene, he's the wild card. And mind you, I made my goal for Kaleel a reality, he's technically a noble. The only non-Ailor noble, I could call it a day.

This throws into my original thought process that I didn't make this post entirely for myself. Kaleel's chances of being landed are slim at best unless I wanted to change him to be a cookie cutter noble, which there's no chance of that and a topic for another post altogether. Though, there are some Qadir and Elfs (though not currently, in Marty's words) could be elegant, and deserve a chance. Perhaps even allowing Eleven nobility could revive the scene, I certainly would partake in such a thing, I played an elf for a long time and enjoyed it.

And while my argument was that players should be able to be nobility whether they're Ailor or not is unfair, which I have been proven wrong, and rightfully admit. I remain with my amended statement with Marty's response in mind that there should be something to look toward eventually (with work) as a non-Ailor character. I say this because not everyone has two and a half years to throw at a character and hope to the Spirit that they have the luck to make the correct friends and political allies to become what they want (And some of these people want a challenge, but not a 1/10000000 odd challenge, which is what they're at). Simultaneously it should not just be handed out to any bucko on the street, there would be work involved.

Ailor get nobility as their special thing to look at and work toward but non-Ailor have nothing but defying discrimination. My point is valid.
 
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Scrihbe said:
Fong's non-Ailor, isn't he? He's a pretty highly-regarded noble.
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He had exceptions made for him because he has been a very active member of the community for years- hes ex-staff, plans events, helps with staff events IE the haunted mansion this year, etc a lot of stuff.
 
Do you think there'd be room for non-criminal positions of power open to other races? Diplomats/merchants who can influence the city?

I recall talks in the past of roles like that for Elves and Qadir. And wasn't there some sort of official Maiar or Slizzar embassy a long time ago?

Staff are spread a bit thin at present, but maybe that would be a project for new RP and lore staff to manage.
 
LeafMC said:
Do you think there'd be room for non-criminal positions of power open to other races? Diplomats/merchants who can influence the city?

I recall talks in the past of roles like that for Elves and Qadir. And wasn't there some sort of official Maiar or Slizzar embassy a long time ago?

Staff are spread a bit thin at present, but maybe that would be a project for new RP and lore staff to manage.
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Conceptualized, but we never had time to put too much effort into it. It always has to strike the fine balance of being rewarding to achieve, but not too easy to achieve so it pisses off players who worked hard to earn privilige elsewhere. That latter part is often the hardest part to get just right and often causes the majority of the spite towards me/my implementations.

Ex. see: Mithril Clique conspiracy theory. iMcMuffins "MonMarty Pet" theory, etc.
 
MonMarty said:
Mithril Clique conspiracy theory.
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I'll quickly expand on the Embassador concept:

Babayonce and I had a one hour meeting about it once in which we discussed the potentiality of at least Elven and Qadir embassadors. The idea there was to create an application based system where players could apply to become embassadors which grants partial instant nobility, but there was a catch. The player was required to do monthly/multi weekly tasks which were often detrimental to their relations with the other nobility and regalia. For ex. the Empire of Songaskia asks Embassador X to dig up some dirt on noble Y or have a law passed that makes Z no longer possible (for example racial religious discrimination of Songaskia by the confessions of Melennar).

Eventually this idea was just stuffed into a high hat and shelved. We didn't have the manpower to keep generating these tasks, especially since I'm so thin spread right now that I'm even having trouble maintaining the Guild Wars game, the current update almost being 2 weeks overdue. I don't think we currently have any new aspirants that would vaguely be competent enough to fulfill this role. Not that they aren't competent, rather, we "hired" them for different tasks which they are very competent in. The noble programme has always been a super niche of both Babayonce and myself and with extension Shuikenai. I'd be at a loss who else to assign to this sort of content generation besides myself, which quickly becomes a "Kill the Guild Wars game, or don't implement the Embassy system". It's a tough coin toss.

Granted another reason why this never occurred is because we didn't see anyone in the community who played the non-Ailor races who seemed to have the same level of effort, dedication and activity of say, the likes of Doc_Cantankerous, catcat1305, BillyTheScroofy, some of whom would later fold into staff membership partially also because they had so much input.

I don't know myself if this argues for too-high expectations, or whether it means that the rest is simply too unwilling to put a fair amount of effort in. You make the judgement call.
 
DrunkFailure said:
The only aggression I had was the fact that you attacked me and my character when this thread isn't supposed to be about that.

And yes, people can try very hard to make something of themselves, and the Usque are a good example. But you're missing the point, there isn't supposed to be a 'sign up and win the lottery every time' mentality to this. I offered a suggestion that compromised so there was no thread, and work had to be put forward, while still offering incentives for people to TRY and WORK for what they want.

And isn't it a bit odd that Ailor can 'sign up and be noble' while those of us who do not (despite me having a Ailor noble character I can not say I particularly find her interesting) are offered nothing but busting our backs to get half of what an Ailor can get? There needs to be something that equates this equation, this discussion isn't bout offering non-Ailor nobility anymore, just something to reward them for their efforts, you know?
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I do not believe I attacked you? I just said I do not know what you have done aside from the mention, said myself I haven't done much, and even apologized to say such a statement. I apologize that I had come off as an assailant of sorts. And still, I disagree with this. As I said before, I see very few folks whom take the initiative for said rewards. Despite now that nobility is not what is in question, I still do not believe there isn't enough for non-Ailor. That's all I really have to say left. I don't really think having a title you can apply for on the forums to put on an application is nearly as important as being known IC and OOC by people as being a great character. Is that not really why this thread was made, to be rewarded for good actions? That's the best goal, and in many cases the goal, of characters and their authors... in my opinion, at least!
 
I've roleplayed with Kaleel quite a bit as my Reverend and I can agree with Doc that he can be seen as quite a rough-arm . I don't believe I've seen him attempt any politicking.

Anyway, my advice for non-ailors is not to chase specifically titles, for the most part that is a blind endeavour and won't leave you feeling any happier. The title system right now values roleplayers who make more gain in institutional power or influence rather than their title itself.

Work your way up, not to a title. Make friends, get favours. Try to reach high places in the guard charters and then you'll have political weighting. What I'm trying to say is that non-Ailor's path to nobility will always be dirty one way or another.
 
Tiber_ said:
I've roleplayed with Kaleel quite a bit as my Reverend and I can agree with Doc that he can be seen as quite a rough-arm . I don't believe I've seen him attempt any politicking.
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I never stated I disagreed with his positioning as a rough arm. That doesn't mean he does not have friends, though. He has some political influence, even if it is minimal.

This thread isn't even about him, omg

Grinning_Greaser said:
Despite now that nobility is not what is in question, I still do not believe there isn't enough for non-Ailor. That's all I really have to say left. I don't really think having a title you can apply for on the forums to put on an application is nearly as important as being known IC and OOC by people as being a great character.
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The reward would come after this. I don't want hand outs to anyone for power.
 
Ok i literally skipped past all the replys so if this has been said already i would like to know but you don't have to tell me. In regalia the ailor think they are the best race ever (kind of like elves from what i've read) and sense that is one rising way of unisom, they think that ailor are the overall strongest, and they are smart. So yes regalia is being kind of selfish and they backed up this thought by saying some races like tigrans may be strong, but they are not always smart. Same goes for urs. (people who get aggrivated easily i'm not trying to flame or offend anyone's characters.)
 
CptSprinkleface said:
Ok i literally skipped past all the replys so if this has been said already i would like to know but you don't have to tell me. In regalia the ailor think they are the best race ever (kind of like elves from what i've read) and sense that is one rising way of unisom, they think that ailor are the overall strongest, and they are smart. So yes regalia is being kind of selfish and they backed up this thought by saying some races like tigrans may be strong, but they are not always smart. Same goes for urs. (people who get aggrivated easily i'm not trying to flame or offend anyone's characters.)
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I imagine the Beast Races- Urs, Tigrans, Slizzar, Dakkar, ETC- would not be counted in this. Even were Regalia to have some amazing wave of Jacobinism , the majority of people still think of the Beast Races as dumb- which, no offense to anyone playing them yada yada- they are in general.
 
conflicttFTW said:
I imagine the Beast Races- Urs, Tigrans, Slizzar, Dakkar, ETC- would not be counted in this. Even were Regalia to have some amazing wave of Jacobinism , the majority of people still think of the Beast Races as dumb- which, no offense to anyone playing them yada yada- they are in general.
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CptSprinkleface said:
Ok i literally skipped past all the replys so if this has been said already i would like to know but you don't have to tell me. In regalia the ailor think they are the best race ever (kind of like elves from what i've read) and sense that is one rising way of unisom, they think that ailor are the overall strongest, and they are smart. So yes regalia is being kind of selfish and they backed up this thought by saying some races like tigrans may be strong, but they are not always smart. Same goes for urs. (people who get aggrivated easily i'm not trying to flame or offend anyone's characters.)
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I even stated in the original main post that this didn't apply to beast races, only the elves and qadir as they are first class citizens
 
Non-Ailors can be Nobles if adopted by a Noble Family, but from what I can tell this is rather rare.
I only know of two Non-Ailor Nobles: Jared Kade(Played by LumosJared) and Aerith Ecliviva(Played by me).
That being said, Its probably against the rules for a Non-Ailor Noble to be in charge of a Noble Family, because that makes it a Non-Ailor Noble Family. Has to be run by Ailors.
 
hi i'm late as all hell but.
i'm with marty and the like on this - if you're playing a race other than ailor, expect more & different challenges.

DrunkFailure said:
Feel free to offer suggestions of how one could give a non-Ailor opportunity and entice roleplay other than sewer roleplay, it'd be nice to see others opinions on solutions.
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as for this, there's plenty of opportunity around. just gotta work more for it. anything that an ailor can achieve, another first-class citizen can be achieved - it's just a good deal harder. hell, in my opinion, that gives more opportunities, since there's so many ways to go about things and you can't just take the easy route.
 
Sozzer said:
as for this, there's plenty of opportunity around. just gotta work more for it. anything that an ailor can achieve, another first-class citizen can be achieved - it's just a good deal harder. hell, in my opinion, that gives more opportunities, since there's so many ways to go about things and you can't just take the easy route.
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I can't say I disagree, but the purpose of the post was to provide a medium that could satisfy non-Ailor that want something that they could work for but not enter two years of work behind, some people may wish to put in the work to make something of their character, such as myself or anyone really, but some don't have that sort of time and there should be something there for them too. It's nonsensical to punish those who try by citing that they can't throw hours of work into schemes and plans. They might still provide roleplay for others; just not as much as the other guys and they are left behind.

As the thread devolved from 'Non-Ailor Nobility' to 'Something provided so they can strive for soemthing cool' as there's no clear roadmap for nobility for non-Ailor at the moment.


Im going to throw another opinion in the dirt to be thought at; Offering soemthing to achieve will cause roleplay to improve because by offering incentives you gain interest. If there is something out there for non-Ailor it will improve their quality of roleplay and by proxy, others too.
 
DrunkFailure said:
I can't say I disagree, but the purpose of the post was to provide a medium that could satisfy non-Ailor that want something that they could work for but not enter two years of work behind, some people may wish to put in the work to make something of their character, such as myself or anyone really, but some don't have that sort of time and there should be something there for them too. It's nonsensical to punish those who try by citing that they can't throw hours of work into schemes and plans. They might still provide roleplay for others; just not as much as the other guys and they are left behind.

As the thread devolved from 'Non-Ailor Nobility' to 'Something provided so they can strive for soemthing cool' as there's no clear roadmap for nobility for non-Ailor at the moment.


Im going to throw another opinion in the dirt to be thought at; Offering soemthing to achieve will cause roleplay to improve because by offering incentives you gain interest. If there is something out there for non-Ailor it will improve their quality of roleplay and by proxy, others too.
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let me rephrase this, since you seem to have entirely missed my point somehow.
there are incentives, and there's no need to put two years of work into it. there are things which will need that much work. many of these would take just as much for an Ailor as for any other race, be it due to there being no system surrounding it, or due to there being little to no current focus on it for any number of reasons. if you want something you don't have to sit a large amount of effort behind, then set your goals lower. it's as simple as that. there's numerous things you can put the effort in for that won't take nearly as long, just remember that bigger goals will take proportionally more effort and work behind them.
 
Can we all just agree that my Dra'lonais, my Shendar, and my Slizzar, should all definitely be noble?

Just imagine a a Slizzar in a fancy noble suit, with a little wig.
 
Let me actually elaborate. Really long periods are being thrown around like years X or 3 years Y. Reaching somewhere does not take years on Massive. You can probably reach where you want to be in roleplay in less than 2 months. It all depends on how much effort you put into things.

Take Doc for example. Doc started his road to ministry years ago, but in the time span before he got there, there were massive periods of time when he was just gone. What really made him noticed and picked up, was what he was doing as Aethelred Coen. I speculate it's because he was immediately exposed also to a larger political family and had people who he could work with to achieve things.

That points out two matters:
  • In order to progress, you need to make sure the people around you want to work just as hard as you. If people around you are sort of like whatever, it's much easier to just not do anything.
  • In order to progress, you need to not get intimidated by the hypothetical time it can take. It does not take years. It takes weeks and months, but given how roleplay tends to progress on this server versus servers that have full years in weeks, that's actually not a lot of time spent on the server in total if you also have school/college/a job.
 
MonMarty said:
Let me actually elaborate. Really long periods are being thrown around like years X or 3 years Y. Reaching somewhere does not take years on Massive. You can probably reach where you want to be in roleplay in less than 2 months. It all depends on how much effort you put into things.

Take Doc for example. Doc started his road to ministry years ago, but in the time span before he got there, there were massive periods of time when he was just gone. What really made him noticed and picked up, was what he was doing as Aethelred Coen. I speculate it's because he was immediately exposed also to a larger political family and had people who he could work with to achieve things.

That points out two matters:
  • In order to progress, you need to make sure the people around you want to work just as hard as you. If people around you are sort of like whatever, it's much easier to just not do anything.
  • In order to progress, you need to not get intimidated by the hypothetical time it can take. It does not take years. It takes weeks and months, but given how roleplay tends to progress on this server versus servers that have full years in weeks, that's actually not a lot of time spent on the server in total if you also have school/college/a job.
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I come from a group where the plots we write take a week at the most, but then we usually jump right into the next one.
RIP Dark Karis
 
Another helpful tip that applies to what Marty said above, but also Life in general: Break it down.

You can have a massive plan that will span a year or more, just make sure you break it down into easy to manage steps. Its like, you dont go order a steak and then shove the steak, the plate its on, and the whole damn table in your mouth. You cut the steak into bits, and go from there. And if some of it falls on the floor, be ready to adapt, IE get a baked potato too.
 
I've thought of it as something similar to the Elder scrolls or Dragon Age, or a dozen other RPG's. Different races will have different drawbacks, strengths, and of course, backgrounds. Unlike in real life, I think the racial tension and bigotry is good as it fuels a lot plots, dynamics, and just general roleplay than if more races were treated equally. There's little point in having so many fantasy races if they'll all be treated similarly.

It's very difficult compare real world, modern day countries to a medieval fantasy world. If pressed to do, I wouldn't choose America or any European country. Each has come a long, long way in civil rights, understanding and tolerance. Much longer than Regalia has had time for. You would have to back hundreds of years to make a more accurate comparison. A better modern day parallel might be South Africa where segregation laws, sadly, still exist.

Even with the influx of Qadir and Ch'ien-Ji, and 11th Creed, I wouldn't expect to see very many non-Ailor held titles beyond a certain point. Laws may change, but opinions and temperaments do not change with them. Regalia's government resembles the feudal system, so nepotism can be expected, if not guaranteed.

To conclude, yes it is harder for non-Ailor to become higher mobility, but not impossible. You do not need to become a cookie cutter noble, but you do have to work harder at it than Ailor. Is that unfair? Yes. Why is it okay, then? Because you choose your character's race.
 

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