Why Isn't There Non-ailor Nobility?

[ZZaque]

Today I'd like to discuss something that I'd long kept quiet about, now while I wish to discuss these topics, I do not wish to cause drama, these are opinions, and therefore may not be correct, or with the majority of Massivecraft. Though, I'd like to think they have some degree of logic. THIS IS A DISCUSSION NOT A FLAME.


Feel free to offer suggestions of how one could give a non-Ailor opportunity and entice roleplay other than sewer roleplay, it'd be nice to see others opinions on solutions.


This post pertains to the suggesting of features/discussion of what we can do to provide roleplay opportunity to non-Ailor.

Spoiler: Original post; Read if you like

Question one: No non-Ailor nobility? Not likely.


I pose this with evidence with the fact that this rule in place is nonsensical to me. That is like saying all of America is white. And represented by white people.While the majority of the House of Representatives is of white background, America's Hispanic and African American population continues to grow far quicker than the white population and this portrays into the representation in the governmental system. Now, in comparison to Massivecraft, having every noble become an Ailor makes no sense, especially after the Qadir Invasion. You had better believe there are places (counties, baronies, duchies) with majority Qadir, or Elves, within the Regalian lands. Take Texas for example, who is becoming more and more Latino as more time passes, so certainly some counties and duchies would have influxes of minorities over time in Regalia. And these places sure as heck would not want a Ailor ruling over them. Every county in Florida, for example is not represented by the dominant ethnic group (Caucasian), so neither should the ruling counts, duchesses, lords and so on in Regalia. Because in the places where the majority is a minority, they'd take advantage of that, and put someone who could represent them in or revolt otherwise. Now this isn't to say that any non-first class citizens should be able to be nobles, or even that these nobles could be on the same level in places like the Noble Assembly, but they should have some vote and they should derive some representation for those minorities.




Question 2: Ailor supremacy causes a lack of motivation to play non-Ailor [above ground].


In my ENTIRE three year tenure on Massivecraft I've totalled one character as an Ailor, so this opinion may be biased. I've come to find that only allowing Ailor to become something great really puts a bore into roleplay. Many times, as I've played two years as Kaleel, I found myself bogged down and unwilling to play him simply do to the fact that the higher up he gets the more the clamp comes down on my neck for where he can go and what he can do. It de-motivates me to cause interesting RP. There's little to no reward (that I see) for causing roleplay outside the sewers as a minority character.


Wouldn't it be way more fun to have Qadir and Chien'ji all lobbying for different things in the Noble Court and trying to push their agendas for their constituents? Not to mention a Chien'ji was grandfathered into the noble system, so why not let Qadir and Chien'ji have some type of noble role, especially with the 11th creed being created.


In my experience I've struggled so hard to get to a place where any Ailor can get in less than a month. It's taken two years to gain this type of prestige, and he's not even rewarded at all for what he's done. I find myself less and less motivated to continue to play my Qadir as his options thin out.


It's not only me that feels this way I hope. The sewers are where the minority characters thrive, and rightfully so but their should be more opportunity for those who work so hard above ground as well whether their skin is vanilla or not.


[This does not apply to the beast races, sorry]

 

[ZZaque]

Reserved.

 

[Legoclub22]

They don't have to come to Regalia if they don't like it there. Regalia is an Ailor Empire, and thus ruled by Ailor. If the other races don't like that, they don't have to move to Regalia. They should have remained in their homelands. From an IC perspective, it makes perfect sense, and I don't see any reason why someone could disagree OOCly of ICly with the IC reasons.

As for diminishing roleplay... That is true, I suppose. But if you want things handed to you easily, make an Ailor character. If you choose to be a Qadir or Slizzar, don't expect any breaks. You'll have to work hard for what you want, and just as you should.

 

[Conflee]

I have to agree a little here, on the general point of playing something that ISNT Ailor is a bit daunting and limiting, especially when you first start off.

Most events focus on Ailors, or at least Humans. Which, makes sense, a majority of characters ARE Ailor. But it makes people playing the less represented races feel like there isn't much going for them. I can't recall a single Mekket focused or impacting event, at all.

But, again, it is an Ailor Empire. It makes sense. Im hoping to see Sewer RP Develop more to include specific events and things to cater to the non-human races.

 

[ZZaque]

They don't have to come to Regalia if they don't like it there. Regalia is an Ailor Empire, and thus ruled by Ailor. If the other races don't like that, they don't have to move to Regalia. They should have remained in their homelands. From an IC perspective, it makes perfect sense, and I don't see any reason why someone could disagree OOCly of ICly with the IC reasons.

Click to shrink...

I understand that Ailor control Regalia and they didn't have to move here and such. I'm simply stating that it makes little sense for the representation of places that hypothetically could be dominated by a minority culture in Regalia to be Ailor, it's just the same as a Qadir Count ruling a bunch of Ailor.

 

[Johto_Jo]

It's likely frustrating as an ooc standpoint to find that you're unable to do a variety of things all because of the racial views that are upheld ic. While /I'm/ not bothered by the oppression personally, I could see that others could certainly feel discouraged if they had a specific character in mind and found that they were unable to create them on the server due to racism.

What if I wanted to play an orcish baron? It'd be highly unlikely unless a lot of time and effort were put into surpassing loopholes and making juuuuust the right friends-- i.e., see Jared Silverhand, whom worked for nearly 4 years in ooc's time to get to the position he's in now, and only was able to do so as a presumed ailor.

An imaginary world shouldn't suppress creativity, it should expand and encourage it. <: This is definitely a valid question, @DrunkFailure
Also, I adore your new username.

 

[Speedl0rd]

Also, I adore your new username.

Click to shrink...

It reminds me of my dad.

 

[Conflee]

Maybe if certain non-ailor races could hold low-nobility, it would help. But, its established in Lore Regalia is Racist, so unless something like this passed through the Noble Assembly- which the Jingoist Party has a tight grip on at the moment- I doubt it will change.

Still, with the Rumor Court and Noble Assembly as a thing now, any changes are theoretically possible.

 

[MonMarty]

I'll try to keep my response to arguments as short as possible.

That is like saying all of America is white. And represented by white people.While the majority of the House of Representatives is of white background, America's Hispanic and African American population continues to grow far quicker than the white population and this portrays into the representation in the governmental system

Click to shrink...

This is a false comparison. You are comparing a modern society to a medieval/renaissance fantasy universe that is fictional. The first problem that is exposed is the fact that you are making a false demographic comparison as well as a cultural comparison. From a couple searches, it's pretty obvious that in some southern states during the colonial era there was more non-whites than there was whites. Was non-white nobility thinkable during those days? Absolutely not. "Those days" are much closer culturally and time mentality speaking to Aloria, than modern day USA.

There is a sub note here. The page here defines that the population is actually 21% Elven. That is really sizable and there are some really rich Elves. With the 11th creed in place in 303 AC, the legal pathway to allowing Elven nobility is actually 100% complete. It's just that there is currently no OOC method in which characters can go from 0 to noble in logical progression because the noble system was devolved. At the same time none of the Elves that are currently roleplayed seem vaguely competent (politically speaking) or classy (behaviorally speaking) to qualify as something the nobles would be comfortable with. The vast majority of them are either jungle SJW's, Sewer trodders or Elves that speak with cockney accents.

Can I say though, the whole "whites versus non whites" rhetoric feels uncomfortable to me. You're turning this into an racist rhetoric thing when it doesn't have to/shouldn't be. Ailor is not synonymous to white. Ailors cover a wide variety of skin tones and skin colors, which yes, exclude the sub saharan and middle east varieties, but to "summarize in comparison" Ailor as "whites" is drawing on scare tactics to make a point.

Now, in comparison to Massivecraft, having every noble become an Ailor makes no sense, especially after the Qadir Invasion

Click to shrink...

I think this is because you're appealing to the idea of Noble replacement that occured. This goes by the assumption that the Regalian government did not purge all the Qadir that were "noble" for a time span of 3 months and had them executed for being grand traitors to the Regalian Empire. Similarly to the Norman Conquest of England, and the subsequent Baron's rebellion and English Civil Wars, unloyal nobility were purged and replaced with cultural cousins of the ruling party. Anyone who would have gained nobility during the Qadir occupation would surely have been cast out or executed so this is a moot point.

You had better believe there are places (counties, baronies, duchies) with majority Qadir, or Elves, within the Regalian lands

Click to shrink...

The Regalian city has the highest non-Ailor percentages, and even then there is only a 41% non-Human clut of which half is even Elven. That is because of metropolitan gravitation. The actual numbers of non-Ailor in the countryside where the nobility have their titles, is much much lower. The only region that has a high number of foreigners is the Etolia regions on the east, which is where the Fongs rule their lands.

Take Texas for example, who is becoming more and more Latino as more time passes, so certainly some counties and duchies would have influxes of minorities over time in Regalia.

Click to shrink...

Texas is land connected to Mexico. Between Regalia and Farahdeen (or any other continent with major populations) are oceans larger than the north sea and sometimes even the atlantic ocean. This makes this point moot.

Because in the places where the majority is a minority, they'd take advantage of that, and put someone who could represent them in or revolt otherwise.

Click to shrink...

Except most races don't have citizenship and often just live in unregistered slums. In most cases they are probably just happy enough to be alive and exist, and would probably risk not drawing the ire of the militant racist state that has a habit of committing mass genocide against unreliable races ex. vultar heretics, Allar, etc.

I've come to find that only allowing Ailor to become something great really puts a bore into roleplay.

Click to shrink...

This is an opinion. I personally am of the opinion that you "buy into" an experience when you play a different race. If you find this experience boring, you chose the wrong experience. You can't make apple juice with pears and make bread with venison. It's a weak metaphor, I know, but we're of the opinion that when you intentionally play a Non-Ailor, you buy into the oppression and difficulty factor.

I found myself bogged down and unwilling to play him simply do to the fact that the higher up he gets the more the clamp comes down on my neck for where he can go and what he can do.

Click to shrink...

What has your character actually do, or have done in the past, to strive towards a noble title? The only thing I remember about your character is that they married a woman that practices polyandry. From an OOC perspective all I remember you do is complain at me, and then at baba as to why we didn't want to give you nobility straight off the bat. I may be wrong and uninformed, there are segments of the community that I barely have contact with, but I would vaguely be under the assumption that if Kaleel made any major political overtures, created roleplay for others or hosted events, I would have heard about it.

Not to mention a Chien'ji was grandfathered into the noble system

Click to shrink...

You are creating a really false dichotomy between your presence on the server and drfong's presence on the server in relation to how it should translate to titles. drfong can be seen as an exception to the title regulations because:

• drfong served as a lore staff member helping with lore concepting.
• drfong served as lore staff member helping with Character apps.
• drfong hosted for numerous years the fong park / haunted mansions.
• drfong has hosted numerous events for the nobility and common people.
• drfong has been a prolific and helpful person in the community, helping players and staff alike better their work and mood in general.
• drfong has even assisted in-roleplay generation with the brute squad and various other organizations support.

drfong worked hard for whatever exceptions are made towards him, and in line with Meritocracy ethic that rules our thinking as staff, has more than deserved whatever privilege we bestow upon him in reward for his community service. Obviously I cannot compare your track record with his since you're younger and have spent less time on the server, but if we make this a "He is in there, so I should have the ability too", then you need to have something more to show for. Non-Ailor face increased difficulty when it comes to processing into nobility, this is a conscious choice you make when you play a non-Ailor. drfong should never be part of any argument to support loosening the restrictions on certain groups of players because he cannot be compared to average players.

THIS IS A DISCUSSION NOT A FLAME.

Click to shrink...

I don't think it is currently a discussion. You are citing problems and arguments, but your discussion lacks a conclusion. You are not suggesting a clear idea of what you would like to happen or what you think might be a workable compromise between what you want, and what we have stated before. I cannot properly reply to the conclusion of what you want to achieve, so please elaborate by expanding on what you precisely want to achieve.

I am 100% in disagreement with you that the way everything is currently set up, that it can be disheartening for non-Ailor who want to become Nobles. That being said, from the rhetoric of your post, it seems like you're arguing in favor of a system that should just allow you to be noble with 0 input effort and just receive said reward in your lap because "it makes sense". I cannot subscribe to that, so until there is some sort of clear vision here, I cannot attempt to work a compromise or at the very least explain why we take a contrary point.

I welcome the continuation of this discussion, but it really needs to have an actual outcome in sight that is going to act as the case and not just be a compilation of complaints and arguments.

On a last note: please remember this is a story about Humans. About Human domination and the Regalian Empire fighting the Demon invasions. This is not a story about a utopian racial harmony. Other races are implemented to keep content fresh and interesting, not to diversify the population because racial diversity should be interesting by itself. I (personally anyway) attach more value than the roleplay between characters detached from what race they are, than how their racial juxtaposition has its own appeal.

Lole who was I kidding. Me writing concise? Absolutely not.

 

[_Grimmy_]

jungle SJW's

Click to shrink...

Thankyou for this gem.

 

[spoonly]

your attention to detail on some of this fairy tail rp shit is concerning

 

[ZZaque]

I'd like to start off by saying that this post wasn't a boo hoo pity me post, it was a legitimate thing that I wanted to discuss, more specifically, with you Marty and the community. And yes, I offered no clear answer, and that was a flaw in my original post.

Onto my rebuttals.

Can I say though, the whole "whites versus non whites" rhetoric feels uncomfortable to me. You're turning this into an racist rhetoric thing when it doesn't have to/shouldn't be. Ailor is not synonymous to white. Ailors cover a wide variety of skin tones and skin colors, which yes, exclude the sub saharan and middle east varieties, but to "summarize in comparison" Ailor as "whites" is drawing on scare tactics to make a point.

Click to shrink...

I did not ever intend to make the African American/White scare tactic a thing. It was the simplest comparison I could make, and I /hate hate hate/ bringing race into things, I felt it was necessary for the sake of making the point. I've always seen Ailor as the Caucasian and the Qadir/Songaskia as the Fertile Crescent (Middle Eastern)/African folk. It wasn't a scare tactic and never was intended to be, I worded myself very carefully to AVOID that situation while still trying to make the point. I apologize if it came off as offensive or derogatory or 'scare tactic'-esque. I want to make that very clear that was not the intention. And to be fair, I was weary to even include this to start with but, unfortunately I felt as if I had to otherwise my point wouldn't be made.

This is a false comparison. You are comparing a modern society to a medieval/renaissance fantasy universe that is fictional. The first problem that is exposed is the fact that you are making a false demographic comparison as well as a cultural comparison. From a couple searches, it's pretty obvious that in some southern states during the colonial era there was more non-whites than there was whites. Was non-white nobility thinkable during those days? Absolutely not. "Those days" are much closer culturally and time mentality speaking to Aloria, than modern day USA.

Click to shrink...

I would like to say that while this is true, there was also civil unrest and several slave rebellions to varying degrees of success, it wasn't dandelions and roses. And while there was no non-white nobility, there were varying levels of success that non-whites had, depending on the state and the precise time period you look at.

There is a sub note here. The page here defines that the population is actually 21% Elven. That is really sizable and there are some really rich Elves. With the 11th creed in place in 303 AC, the legal pathway to allowing Elven nobility is actually 100% complete. It's just that there is currently no OOC method in which characters can go from 0 to noble in logical progression because the noble system was devolved. At the same time none of the Elves that are currently roleplayed seem vaguely competent (politically speaking) or classy (behaviorally speaking) to qualify as something the nobles would be comfortable with. The vast majority of them are either jungle SJW's, Sewer trodders or Elves that speak with cockney accents.

Click to shrink...

This is something I was talking about in my final statement of my original post, opening up pathways for non-Ailor to have access to opportunity. Perhaps this is an answer to another one of your arguments where you stated that I had no conclusion, only open ended questions. This could be the start of something rather interesting, and while the competence of the elven scene is.. sub-par currently, offering incentives to play a competent elf could change that. As I've played an Elf for a long period of time, I can say that it's rewarding if you choose the correct route, but with the Nenya taken to the sewers and Shayin no longer at the lead, I abandoned my elf due to lack of direction. Introducing nobility to the elves might revive the scene? Who knows. It's out there.

I think this is because you're appealing to the idea of Noble replacement that occured. This goes by the assumption that the Regalian government did not purge all the Qadir that were "noble" for a time span of 3 months and had them executed for being grand traitors to the Regalian Empire. Similarly to the Norman Conquest of England, and the subsequent Baron's rebellion and English Civil Wars, unloyal nobility were purged and replaced with cultural cousins of the ruling party. Anyone who would have gained nobility during the Qadir occupation would surely have been cast out or executed so this is a moot point.

Click to shrink...

Point taken, I'll take the Loss on this one.

The Regalian city has the highest non-Ailor percentages, and even then there is only a 41% non-Human clut of which half is even Elven. That is because of metropolitan gravitation. The actual numbers of non-Ailor in the countryside where the nobility have their titles, is much much lower. The only region that has a high number of foreigners is the Etolia regions on the east, which is where the Fongs rule their lands.

Click to shrink...

To be fair, I don't know these numbers, I was only making a direct correlation to real life and assuming it was the same for Regalia, I felt as though Regalia was like America, and it was the melting pot so there had to be some place where there were majority of non-Ailor. What I didn't account for is that only Regalia (the city) was the melting pot, while the rest remained majority Ailor. For whatever reason I always invision Regalia as 'the land of opportunity' when it's surely not that at all. Definitely informative on my end, thank you.

Texas is land connected to Mexico. Between Regalia and Farahdeen (or any other continent with major populations) are oceans larger than the north sea and sometimes even the atlantic ocean. This makes this point moot.

Click to shrink...

Taking the Loss on this one too, I was ignorant and just spurted out something about the Texas/Mexico border. A more accurate depiction in Aloria would be say... Farah'deen immigrants moving to Al-Alus, or the Caliphene Republic. As there is far less water separating them and they are of the same ethnic background.

Except most races don't have citizenship and often just live in unregistered slums. In most cases they are probably just happy enough to be alive and exist, and would probably risk not drawing the ire of the militant racist state that has a habit of committing mass genocide against unreliable races ex. vultar heretics, Allar, etc.

Click to shrink...

Regalia is not America. Got it. Silly American liberties that I take for-granted coming into play, here.

This is an opinion. I personally am of the opinion that you "buy into" an experience when you play a different race. If you find this experience boring, you chose the wrong experience. You can't make apple juice with pears and make bread with venison. It's a weak metaphor, I know, but we're of the opinion that when you intentionally play a Non-Ailor, you buy into the oppression and difficulty factor.

Click to shrink...

But with the eleventh creed in place... would it not alleviate some of the struggles of Qadir/Elves? Obviously when you play a Allar, or a Mekkett, there's going to be hard resistance, but playing as a first class citizen, you would expect less resistance than a beast race, but that is not so. Regalia is a police state so, oh well, right? Could you perhaps better explain the eleventh creed in IC and OOC terms and what the purpose was so I could make a more educated opinion?

What has your character actually do, or have done in the past, to strive towards a noble title? The only thing I remember about your character is that they married a woman that practices polyandry. From an OOC perspective all I remember you do is complain at me, and then at baba as to why we didn't want to give you nobility straight off the bat. I may be wrong and uninformed, there are segments of the community that I barely have contact with, but I would vaguely be under the assumption that if Kaleel made any major political overtures, created roleplay for others or hosted events, I would have heard about it.

Click to shrink...

Alright. Here we go.

For some time I've had the goal of making Kaleel the first non-Ailor noble, and with some degree of success. He married Apollonia Tzavaras some years ago (two-ish) before or during the Qadir occupation (it blurs together at this point). She married Lorenzo Martinez (under the old noble system where we needed points for activity, substance, etc. to become noble) and Kaleel remarried Apollonia while she was married to him to gain some weird polyamorous duke-consort title as Lorenzo's 'step-husband' (as I have no idea what to call the second husband's relation to the first husband through polyamory) the Tzavaras were given nobility eventually and the old nobility system was diced shortly after.

Following the upgrade of the Tzavaras and while the old system was still in place I contacted you, Shuik, and Baba as I had felt my recent contributions (With Eira Sorenvik and the Crimsons--- seeing as when Eira began her corruption Kaleel was one of say, three active Crimsons) were completely thrown out the window. I complained because I felt as though I was disregarded and cast aside and daughtermelon received recognition, while I (felt like) I was working hard. I asked Shuik if there was any way to get Kaleel land, he referred me to Baba (who was very helpful and supportive of my cause) and stated that there was a way but it was an very uphill battle. I knew that, I'd been carrying a metaphorical mountain for some 2-odd years at that point. I began a quest to gain support for Kaleel, but to no avail as the noble system was once again changed, and the de-evolution and your retirement to management meant there was no more Emperor to please, and no hope at all for Kaleel to gain land. Kaleel's name is "synonymous with Eira at this point" if you want me to make a claim to fame. (And it was not me that stated that. A character told Kaleel those exact words)

I wasn't looking for a hand out, I simply was looking for any way at all to further what I wanted for my character. Understandably so.

You are creating a really false dichotomy between your presence on the server and drfong's presence on the server in relation to how it should translate to titles. drfong can be seen as an exception to the title regulations because:

Click to shrink...

I did not intend to undermine DrFong in anyway, he's been rewarded for his contribution (rightfully so) and I've even partook in his crazy schemes at one point or another. I have nothing but respect for him, trust me, you can ask anyone in my chats. And you're correct, I am also younger and I've not been on the server as long as he. I know he was allowed to have this special permission for a reason, but simultaneously I wanted use his ability to be allowed into nobility as a pinhole for me to say that 'If he is Chien'ji and it goes so well, then perhaps others with characters that are not Ailor could grab a foothold as well and cause an interesting noble dynamic'. My accomplishments, or transgressions are nothing compared to Fong's tenure here and it was wrong of me to come close to that assumption.

I am 100% in disagreement with you that the way everything is currently set up, that it can be disheartening for non-Ailor who want to become Nobles. That being said, from the rhetoric of your post, it seems like you're arguing in favor of a system that should just allow you to be noble with 0 input effort and just receive said reward in your lap because "it makes sense". I cannot subscribe to that, so until there is some sort of clear vision here, I cannot attempt to work a compromise or at the very least explain why we take a contrary point.

Click to shrink...

I will offer you a clear vision, then, or as clear as I can make it. I stated in my last paragraph of my original post that I wanted some sort of system that offered incentives for non-Ailor first class citizens something to work toward above ground, so for those of us that don't subscribe to the crime roleplay that the non-Ailor character dominate(?) we have something to entice us.


You had mentioned in another post that one may be able to become an Ambassador of Regalia to another state, or perhaps the other way around. That'd be a cool and unique thing to be able to work toward, in my opinion, perhaps we can start there. Not Nobility, but something strive to.


I will also update the original post to reflect that we wish to come to a discussion not an argument, and find a resolution to my/others feelings.

 

[Tibertastic]

lol

in a religion that actively wants you to trample on the lower races you give them a duchy?

 

[ElderShrub]

Just my two cents! Basically from an IC perspective there are no non-Ailor nobility for two reasons.

One, because Regalia doesn't care much for representation of the people. They are Ailor and want to see Ailor become more powerful.

Two (Going out on a limb here), being a noble by definition makes you an Ailor. It is very likely that if Northerners or Ithanians where not fully integrated into Ailorian society they would not be considered Ailor. Once a culture becomes fully integrated into Regalia they can begin to form their own nobles. After all Ailor, Songoska and Chi'en-Ji are all different races of human, and race is by no means a fixed thing (unlike species).

Now I would argue that there are also good OOC reasons for allowing Ailorian nobility. Simply, it adds a pull factor to being Ailor. Quite frankly, Ailor are boring. They have no distinctive interesting traits or special skills. I'm an Ailor all day, every day, and I want to try something different. But I am not an Ailor noble, that is different, that is fun. It's the same reason why magic is illegal. If it wasn't, everyone would be a mage. If Ailor supremacy wasn't a thing no-one would play Ailor. It helps establish a level of "normality" to a fantastic world, giving the deception of the world being far more mundane than it actually is and as a result empowering your character through their uniqueness. So, rather counterintuitively, banning magic and enforcing Ailor supremacy actually empowers character by making them seem more unusual and fantastic.

On a final note here that I do not expect Marty to read but I want to say it anyway.

this is a story about Humans.

Click to shrink...

This is kind of like saying that the Lord of the Rings is a story about a Hobbit's quest to throw a magic ring into a volcano. While it is true, it misses a lot of the other characters and their actions and reactions to the story. Also Massive, by it's nature, is less of a single story as it is a collection of unique and individual but connected stories occurring within the same fictional universe without any real overarching theme.

Edit: Although I should say, when he stops getting stabbed I am totally up for seeing Kaleel or other Songoska become noble. There isn't a huge pull to play Songoska anyway.

 

[Timisc]

This probably means near to nothing coming from me but I feel I'll throw it in anyway.

I currently only play Nelfin characters and both of which I had/have pretty well involved in the noble scene, not titled obviously but somewhat respected or maybe just tolerated, the point being it's possible if you work hard enough. As stated, choosing a non-Ailor race just makes for a challenge which is one of the main reasons I play Nelfins. I will say however I have not and do not play a competent enough character at the moment to become nobility as much as they both want it.

I've been playing my Shendar for months now and he started off as a criminal assassin that was greedy and wanted nothing else except money. Now he's become a guard and has possibly made his way up to being a captain with higher ups on his side and now strictly cares for his family.

At one point I felt there was absolutely nothing to do with him but I kept at it and pushed through the boring RP and eventually things started to happen. I find there are these dry spells that happen but you just have to figure something out and push through it.Again the point just being if you work hard enough in roleplay, you may get what you want. If you don't then work harder.

 

[MonMarty]

I will offer you a clear vision, then

Click to shrink...

I wanted to quickly add, the paragraph which this replies to was intended to start with "I am 100% in agreement". My habit for disagreeing must have caused a Freudian slip.

Either way I will write up a more constructive response when I wake up in the morning.

 

[WildRoze]

Though I don't know much about the noble scene nowadays I can add to the limited roleplay power you mention.

Personally I play a yanar that wants to own a tailory. I knew from the start that if I played an Ailor it be less difficult to do that seeing as they are the number one race around but I ask you, where is the fun in that. To me it sounds more fun roleplaying the under dog trying to fight to remain at the top! It is kinda good for roleplaying to have one main race that others can bounce of of. If everyone was suddenly loved and respected what would we roleplay about?

I guess this applies less to nobility but like previous points stated before, its an ailor city. But I see nothing stopping people from trying. As long as we respect each other oocly and don't icly.

 

[Manatee_]

They don't have to come to Regalia if they don't like it there. Regalia is an Ailor Empire, and thus ruled by Ailor. If the other races don't like that, they don't have to move to Regalia. They should have remained in their homelands. From an IC perspective, it makes perfect sense, and I don't see any reason why someone could disagree OOCly of ICly with the IC reasons.

As for diminishing roleplay... That is true, I suppose. But if you want things handed to you easily, make an Ailor character. If you choose to be a Qadir or Slizzar, don't expect any breaks. You'll have to work hard for what you want, and just as you should.

Click to shrink...

I dislike the idea of it being IMPOSSIBLE to obtain nobility as a non Ailor, though. Make it difficult? Sure. Impossible? That discourages RP, because it's not like you can RP in a Songaskia empire.

 

[ChensSpaghetti]

I dislike the idea of it being IMPOSSIBLE to obtain nobility as a non Ailor, though.

Click to shrink...

Jared is an Isldar. They have to strive for it, and do a lot for plot. Waaay more of a challenge, and a lot more fun if you ask me.

 

[ChensSpaghetti]

DrFong

Click to shrink...

I'm pretty sure @DrFong was nobility before Chi'en-Ji were even a thing in the lore. Plus, he continues to actively cause a lot of roleplay and development.

 

[Conflee]

If I remember, it would have theoretically been possible for say, a Nelfin or maybe even a Quadir or Dwarf to gain some minor titles in the Imperial Favor system, if they worked hard at it, but now that that is not a thing, it is a bit barren .

 

[Deetrip]

Roleplay doesn't have to be in Regalia either, you're just likely going to have to build your own cities and there is a chance you will get raided. Aloria is vast, and if you have enough friends (say people with the same complaints as you) go, build your own rp location.

 

[Conflee]

Roleplay doesn't have to be in Regalia either, you're just likely going to have to build your own cities and there is a chance you will get raided. Aloria is vast, and if you have enough friends (say people with the same complaints as you) go, build your own rp location.

Click to shrink...

I mean, the rest of the world is currently overrun by Bone Horrors and leaving the city is near on impossible atm, so we cant really. But also, nobody roleplays outside of Regalia, with a very few rare exceptions. Even official towns in factions maps dont get RP.

 

[Conflee]

I mean, the rest of the world is currently overrun by Bone Horrors and leaving the city is near on impossible atm, so we cant really. But also, nobody roleplays outside of Regalia, with a very few rare exceptions. Even official towns in factions maps dont get RP.

Click to shrink...

Addon to my own comment: Nobody even RPs outside of the MAIN STREET of Regalia hardly either, so expecting it OUTSIDE the city entirely is very optimistic lol.

 

[Deetrip]

I mean, the rest of the world is currently overrun by Bone Horrors and leaving the city is near on impossible atm, so we cant really. But also, nobody roleplays outside of Regalia, with a very few rare exceptions. Even official towns in factions maps dont get RP.

Click to shrink...

I haven't experienced any RP outside of Regalia, mostly I just have been getting massacred. I simply think it would be a nice change if there was somewhere other than Regalia that people would gather, I'm aware there are /tp options.

 

[FireFan96]

There's also that alternate Qadir palace nobody uses, which could be used to RP a viable enemy for Regalia

 

[MonMarty]

I dislike the idea of it being IMPOSSIBLE to obtain nobility as a non Ailor, though.

Click to shrink...

I wanted some sort of system that offered incentives for non-Ailor first class citizens something to work toward above ground

Click to shrink...

There may have been some miscommunication somewhere along the lines of making inquiries. I was always under the impression you requested nobility for your Kaleel character without putting any work into it and applying for it off the bat. I distinctly remember most of the talks to be centered around the fact that non-Ailor weren't permitted to make use of either application system. This is true. There is no active way for Non-Ailor to become noble by title registry, and that in itself is largely because we think it's unrealistic for a noble family to have maintained a historical claim when they are not Ailor. The registry system is usually reserved for nobles who are second third or higher generation. Before the noble system devolved, there were actually ways to achieve nobility in-character in a combination of Imperial visits, political planning and smart PR. I'm a bit at a loss on how to represent this in the current system though. Since I retired from roleplay and lost interest in running the various in-depth sections of the previous noble system iteration, there seems to be no clear way from an OOC perspective to achieve it.

So in summary, it's not that even under the previous system a non-Ailor could not become noble. Hypothetically speaking even Ztril could have become noble. We just don't have an OOC roadmap to follow to achieve it because nobody spent any sizeable time to think about. A suggestion on how to incorporate such should satiate the lore requirement of it being difficult to achieve in-character, but I am not entirely sure how strongly you want to make it depend on other players. Floating between roleplay groups as I do, to my understanding marrying a Tzavaras was a bad political move for a character with aspirations as there are various reasons why politically speaking the Tzavaras family isn't just ignored, but outright not taken seriously in higher political circles. Then there's the added weight of the murder investigation still running against the family head regarding the supposed assassination attempt on Lorenzo Martinez.

I don't have an answer to providing an OOC roadmap to nobility for non-Ailor besides saying "be more like drfong" which is really unhelpful, I know. With my To-Do list as big as it is, I don't think I can feasibly jam another task in there that takes away time from myself. I'm open to suggestions on how to resolve this lack of feature.

because it's not like you can RP in a Songaskia empire.

Click to shrink...

You can. Take a direct right when you use /tp Regalia and there is a teleport gate to Al-has'Hambra, the Songaskian Palace in Farahdeen. It's not big, I know, but it is "Roleplay in the Songaskia Empire"

 

[_Grimmy_]

You can. Take a direct right when you use /tp Regalia and there is a teleport gate to Al-has'Hambra, the Songaskian Palace in Farahdeen. It's not big, I know, but it is "Roleplay in the Songaskia Empire"

Click to shrink...

Shouldn't that be partly on fire and scattared with some rubble since you know..The dead rose and wanted to murder everything, assuming that nobody had the idea to go ''Hey magic*insert antimagic''

 

[diCardinale]

Quadir

Click to shrink...

https://forums.massivecraft.com/threads/psa-dont-be-a-jackanape-spell-qadir-correctly.25179/

 

[Conflee]

A suggestion on how to incorporate such should satiate the lore requirement of it being difficult to achieve in-character, but I am not entirely sure how strongly you want to make it depend on other players.

Click to shrink...

One potential suggestion would be having allowances for people who have performed duties for Regalia, such as those who serve valiantly in wars, someone who prevented an assassination of a noble, have been running successful business ventures that provide necessary services, or have served as guards for a certain time.

A "Special Case" thing could be added to the Title Registry where you explain what your reasoning behind feeling your character should be considered, and add a rule where any Special Case Registrations have to be specifically approved by staff, instead of just surviving the 2 weekends like the rest.

 

[MonMarty]

Shouldn't that be partly on fire and scattared with some rubble since you know..The dead rose and wanted to murder everything, assuming that nobody had the idea to go ''Hey magic*insert antimagic''

Click to shrink...

Should it be? What makes you think the whole world is dying and only Regalia is safe? I think some progression somewhere details the Songaskia pearl cities. Though it may not be published yet. Or at all.

 

[_Grimmy_]

Though it may not be published yet. Or at all.

Click to shrink...

Kind of this and the whole dome of protection thing, the fact that there could and probably were things three times the size of a 2 story house just running around on a murderous rampage

 

[Conflee]

Kind of this and the whole dome of protection thing, the fact that there could and probably were things three times the size of a 2 story house just running around on a murderous rampage

Click to shrink...

Speaking of said dome, a little off topic, shouldnt that be down by now, since the machine that made it you know, blew up?

 

[Magivore]

I haven't been in the noble system for a little over two years now. My noble, nor the family, really allowed me to see enough in the noble scene IC and OOC. The only thing I can really respond with is:
1. A Qadir as a noble only after a length of time when the whole city was taken by them shouldn't spark any keen ideas for one to be involved, or they would have to be met with quite some resistance. You're a citizen, not a loved individual. Sorry. Supremacy is potent, and in a society not nearly modern, should be extremely expected.
2. No non-Ailor characters can't make it anywhere? I am currently using a Slizzar, and I got the Tzavaras household to sign a document that I, the Slizzar, sketched up with both the Durant and Tzavaras name on it. There is also Eyrok, whose character actively got to work for the Kades (if I remember right) to form things such as the Lapis collars, as well as he actually influenced the whole race when it got rewritten! Last, but not least, I can never say a time I've not seen DrFong stand at the front of Regalia, helping a lot of players that most folk don't have the patience, nor attention span, for. The fact that non-Ailor nobility don't exist is either because the people don't want to strive for it OOC, or people earned it. I'm happy be a malicious lil' crap, and probably won't take any other routes. I'm probably not the only one who thinks that.

It's not a question of the race used, but the merits earned by the people who are going for it.

 

[ZZaque]

No non-Ailor characters can't make it anywhere? I am currently using a Slizzar, and I got the Tzavaras household to sign a document that I, the Slizzar, sketched up with both the Durant and Tzavaras name on it. There is also Eyrok, whose character actively got to work for the Kades (if I remember right) to form things such as the Lapis collars, as well as he actually influenced the whole race when it got rewritten! Last, but not least, I can never say a time I've not seen DrFong stand at the front of Regalia, helping a lot of players that most folk don't have the patience, nor attention span, for. The fact that non-Ailor nobility don't exist is either because the people don't want to strive for it OOC, or people earned it.

Click to shrink...

I never said that it was impossible, I simply stated that their should be a gateway past committing two+ years of your life to fighting the system and in some cases getting lucky. Even my own Character is in a place I never thought possible up until this point.

 

[ZZaque]

A "Special Case" thing could be added to the Title Registry where you explain what your reasoning behind feeling your character should be considered, and add a rule where any Special Case Registrations have to be specifically approved by staff, instead of just surviving the 2 weekends like the rest.

Click to shrink...

I like this idea, but I feel like possibly through player quests the same effect could be achieved. Possibly use Player Quest to Supplement the same thing that the old noble system brought to the table? You could quest a visit to the Emperor, and with the written support of others, or even OOC accomplishments written into the 'description' section of the player quest, possibly convince the Emperor to give you a title. All of this could be changed with a few words added to a document, rather than implementing an entire system.

And there could be varying degrees of rewards, those who save an Ailor from death could get a pat on the back, while othrs could gain land, or a special title, or be granted to be an Ambassador of Regalia (offering unique player quest option for that person, and possible even a vote in the Noble Assembly?)
@MonMarty

Floating between roleplay groups as I do, to my understanding marrying a Tzavaras was a bad political move for a character with aspirations as there are various reasons why politically speaking the Tzavaras family isn't just ignored, but outright not taken seriously in higher political circles.

Click to shrink...

Mind you, Kaleel is still a Duke-Consort whether they're taken serious or not, and if you ask anyone Kaleel is the most serious of the jolly-band-of-nitwits known as the Tzavaras. I took up that mantle to basically use the Tzavaras as my doorstop, screw the name, everyone sees Kaleel as Kaleel (I think? Hardly anyone addresses him as Tzavaras), and as far as I know he's taken seriously. Not to mention up until his recent spiral into alcoholism, almost everyone that he bothered to make friends with liked him.

Kaleel has several accomplishments, just like any other non-Ailor, but as I mentioned above, maybe that's a way those of us that devote years into our non-Ailor characters to be given some drive keep on creating interesting roleplay and defying the laws and minds of Regalia.

Enough about me justifying myself.

 

[Magivore]

I like this idea, but I feel like possibly through player quests the same effect could be achieved. Possibly use Player Quest to Supplement the same thing that the old noble system brought to the table? You could quest a visit to the Emperor, and with the written support of others, or even OOC accomplishments written into the 'description' section of the player quest, possibly convince the Emperor to give you a title. All of this could be changed with a few words added to a document, rather than implementing an entire system.

And there could be varying degrees of rewards, those who save an Ailor from death could get a pat on the back, while othrs could gain land, or a special title, or be granted to be an Ambassador of Regalia (offering unique player quest option for that person, and possible even a vote in the Noble Assembly?)
@MonMarty



Mind you, Kaleel is still a Duke-Consort whether they're taken serious or not, and if you ask anyone Kaleel is the most serious of the jolly-band-of-nitwits known as the Tzavaras. I took up that mantle to basically use the Tzavaras as my doorstop, screw the name, everyone sees Kaleel as Kaleel (I think? Hardly anyone addresses him as Tzavaras), and as far as I know he's taken seriously. Not to mention up until his recent spiral into alcoholism, almost everyone that he bothered to make friends with liked him.

Kaleel has several accomplishments, just like any other non-Ailor, but as I mentioned above, maybe that's a way those of us that devote years into our non-Ailor characters to be given some drive keep on creating interesting roleplay and defying the laws and minds of Regalia.

Enough about me justifying myself.

Click to shrink...

It's not just Kaleel that needs the achievements, though. I am sorry to be really rude, but I don't really know what you have motivated other than roleplay scenarios. I haven't done much, I can say, but the points I gave were people who influenced OOC so much that it could become IC (not including myself, I just put my name down as an example of folks who love to participate in higher affairs despite being non-Ailor). It's really easy to make IC matters OOC, but the reverse takes a lot of work that many players haven't yet done or never will do. There is a reason that some of the heavily superior role-players (such as ones who easily can write for a very suitable living) and staff members on this server tend to be nobles; they do a lot of stuff that benefits both story and rule.

 

[Manatee_]

Kaleel is the most serious of the jolly-band-of-nitwits known as the Tzavaras.

Click to shrink...

d i v o r c e d

 

[ZZaque]

t's not just Kaleel that needs the achievements, though. I am sorry to be really rude, but I don't really know what you have motivated other than roleplay scenarios.

Click to shrink...

This isn't just for me. This post isn't even about me. It's about the incredible difficulty associated with being a non-Ailor and the cap on their roleplay. Not everyone wants to take 3 years, or make just the right friends to be something. I believe their should be work involved but not the overarching odds that most players have upon being non-Ailor. It's discouraging. And I don't mean they should be handed land, simply an option outside of being a noble-assistant, or changing their identity after 3 IRL years to become a noble.

You don't need to be a dick when I'm literally trying to help people that play non-Ailor. Taking shots at me is rather low of you. Just becuase I have a vested interest in advancing non-Ailor roleplay doesn't mean I'm trying to become some roleplay god or even say 'IM THE BEST ROLEPLAYER EVER LOLOLOL'.

Literally trying to help people. I repeat.


[I'm putting myself out here on this one, this post isn't about me but in order to use an example, I'll be using myself here]

And maybe some people don't want to be a basic Ailor but want a way to contribute without literally putting forth such amounts of effort that they think about Massive outside of their time here, in the real world, I certainly have to do that to keep Kaleel relevant, I'm sure other do the same thing. I want to contribute to the story of Massivecraft but I don't support being an Ailor whatsoever. And I'm not the only one.

I've only brought up myself and my character because Marty (And now you) brought up the Tzavaras. I justified myself. End of story. I'd prefer to keep my character (and myself) out of the discussion from here on seeing as while it effects him, it's not about him.

~~~~

On a less defensive note. Is there a way to offer incentives to roleplay in the Qadir Palace? Or the other places in Regalia? Because the majority of RP happens in the same places every day and I think that harms roleplay too.

 

[Magivore]

This isn't just for me. This post isn't even about me. It's about the incredible difficulty associated with being a non-Ailor and the cap on their roleplay. Not everyone wants to take 3 years, or make just the right friends to be something. I believe their should be work involved but not the overarching odds that most players have upon being non-Ailor. It's discouraging. And I don't mean they should be handed land, simply an option outside of being a noble-assistant, or changing their identity after 3 IRL years to become a noble.


[I'm putting myself out here on this one, this post isn't about me but in order to use an example, I'll be using myself here]

And maybe some people don't want to be a basic Ailor but want a way to contribute without literally putting forth such amounts of effort that they think about Massive outside of their time here, in the real world, I certainly have to do that to keep Kaleel relevant, I'm sure other do the same thing. I want to contribute to the story of Massivecraft but I don't support being an Ailor whatsoever. And I'm not the only one.

I've only brought up myself and my character because Marty brought up the Tzavaras. I justified myself. End of story.

Click to shrink...

Sorry, but they really should just start trying harder. Just like anything, the only way to get somewhere is by putting forth the initiative that most others don't. Not only this, but the placement in society that races are at are very defined. If you wish to contribute to the story of MassiveCraft, being an Ailor noble, in fact, would be only one of the many places you can start. Usque, for example. I can't honestly tell you a single Ailor in that group, yet their notoriety skyrocketed because they put forth the effort by asking staff members to do activities, sparking roleplay among the sewers, and then getting so far as to hit the surface. I get what you mean by saying it should be easier for players to get to that point, but nevertheless, as mentioned by Marty, people should know what they are getting into by being Ur or Dwarf in a culture ruled by Ailor in medieval times. A proud Reverend shouldn't be a possessed Estel cult leader who mugs people for a living, as should a trained warrior (which are a mass of the character population) whom always carries a weapon not be a Reverend. Rewards should come to more than those who sign a name and write up a thread, or those who affect 3 characters within a friend group rather than 13 they have no idea about: at least by my opinion. I hope I haven't caused you any aggression.