The #throwoutyourgoditems Campaign

[65jes89]

Well, I've decided to follow thortuna's advice, and since PvPers have ruined the economy so much with all our god gear, I've decided to start this campaign. The idea is simple: throw out all of your god armor and the economy will magically fix itself! As show here:

o i suggest that if you all feel that there is to much of the gift4all items then encourage people to throw them away? If all pvpers throw them away and i know for a fact lots and lots of rpers threw them away as soon as they got them then you would reduce the problem on your own accord.

Click to shrink...

the problem with the economy is 100% our fault, and so it is 100% up to us to fix it. So, take a stand for yourself today and something will maybe probably happen! I don't guarantee it at all because this is actually extremely illogical! So grab that lava bucket and break those chests with god armor in em, and help fix the economy 1 diamond block at a time!

#lmfao
#FixTheEconomy
#Logic
#PleaseTellUsHowYou'reGoingToFixTheEconomy
#PleaseTellUsHowYou'reGoingToFixPvP
#TheSatireIsTooStrong
#Hashtag

@BenRekt I figured out the secret to fixing pvp

 

[65jes89]

In all sincerity, it's extremely frustrating when I get answers like this to well thought out threads like the one this reply was made on, and just complete denial of the problems on other threads. There is a problem, it's pissing people off, and despite asking for plans, making suggestions, replies, etc, there's still nothing being done.

This thread wasn't made to offend anyone, it's simply to show the frustrations of those of us who care about the server.

 

[krios41]

Have PvP'rs ever concidert a "payed protection"?
like, let a faction pay X amount of regals and you defent them for X amounts day's/weeks/months

pro:

• you get to fight the people that tried to raid a helpless faction
• you get money that is not reliant on Godgear
• ???
• Profit

Con:

• i don't know, i'm not a pvp'r i'm just making a fancy lsit for teh sake of making a list.
• I also just tried to make a sugestion without giving it much tought
• ???
  
• you realy should fill in teh cons for me, no joke.

 

[65jes89]

Have PvP'rs ever concidert a "payed protection"?
like, let a faction pay X amount of regals and you defent them for X amounts day's/weeks/months

pro:

• you get to fight the people that tried to raid a helpless faction
• you get money that is not reliant on Godgear
• ???
• Profit

Con:

• i don't know, i'm not a pvp'r i'm just making a fancy lsit for teh sake of making a list.
• I also just tried to make a sugestion without giving it much tought
• ???
  
• you realy should fill in teh cons for me, no joke.

Click to shrink...

That used to happen a lot, but no longer happens anymore because roleplayers now just refuse to fight at all, including even allowing their allies to defend them. I really have no idea how this relates to the topic though.

 

[BenRekt]

Have PvP'rs ever concidert a "payed protection"?
like, let a faction pay X amount of regals and you defent them for X amounts day's/weeks/months

pro:

• you get to fight the people that tried to raid a helpless faction
• you get money that is not reliant on Godgear
• ???
• Profit

Con:

• i don't know, i'm not a pvp'r i'm just making a fancy lsit for teh sake of making a list.
• I also just tried to make a sugestion without giving it much tought
• ???
  
• you realy should fill in teh cons for me, no joke.

Click to shrink...

Why would RPers hire people to fight when they aren't willing to surrender, or ever fight, and just go to Regalia until the raiders leave? PvP on Massive has never been more pointless than it is now, with god weapons literally being worth a stack of wood.

 

[Querack]

The simple answer is just remove Gift4all

 

[krios41]

I was just trying to be helpfull tho... ^~^

 

[FireFan96]

I just got rid of all my gift4all armor sets...

Well, actually the mobs got the gift4all armor sets and I repaired em to death
But hey, It's a start.

 

[Caedit]

People could work towards removing the economy from PVP entirely. You don't need PVP to be profitable, because PVP should be fun in of itself. I mean, we all /love/ how interactive, well made, and skillful PVP is don't we? So who needs a reward for PVPing when you can just PVP for fun.

Only god items have become worthless, diamonds, gold, and all the other staples of the economy should still be fine to trade. I'm sure people will still be buying and selling building materials as well. Just separate the economy's need for PVP to support it and you're done.

 

[65jes89]

People could work towards removing the economy from PVP entirely. You don't need PVP to be profitable, because PVP should be fun in of itself. I mean, we all /love/ how interactive, well made, and skillful PVP is don't we? So who needs a reward for PVPing when you can just PVP for fun.

Click to shrink...

Because if it's the fun in pvping itself Massive loses 10 times out of 10. Massive pvp isn't altogether that fun, the economy, politics, etc. is.

 

[Kibaa]

wait i'm lost what's the current problem?

 

[FireFan96]

Too much god armor, so throw it all out to bring prices up.

 

[BenRekt]

People could work towards removing the economy from PVP entirely. You don't need PVP to be profitable, because PVP should be fun in of itself. I mean, we all /love/ how interactive, well made, and skillful PVP is don't we? So who needs a reward for PVPing when you can just PVP for fun.

Only god items have become worthless, diamonds, gold, and all the other staples of the economy should still be fine to trade. I'm sure people will still be buying and selling building materials as well. Just separate the economy's need for PVP to support it and you're done.

Click to shrink...

Massive PvP is laggy, boring, especially because nobody fights even when on an equal playing field, and there is no incentive to fight when everything is worthless. There is no reason to play besides to hang out with people you know (which can be done on any other server / game).

 

[Querack]

Massive PvP is laggy, boring, especially because nobody fights even when on an equal playing field, and there is no incentive to fight when everything is worthless. There is no reason to play besides to hang out with people you know (which can be done on any other server / game).

Click to shrink...

I'm sure the server will pull through in the future

 

[BenRekt]

I'm sure the server will pull through in the future

Click to shrink...

Doubt it, the lag, the victim mentality of 90% of the factions and the broken economy have always been here. I want to have some hope but there have been too many empty promises to count.

Add in the new EULA, gifts4all and no fix for hit-registration after ~3 years, I don't think a lot of people will continue to buy premium out of wanting to support the server.

 

[Aespair]

Well, I've decided to follow thortuna's advice, and since PvPers have ruined the economy so much with all our god gear, I've decided to start this campaign. The idea is simple: throw out all of your god armor and the economy will magically fix itself! As show here:

the problem with the economy is 100% our fault, and so it is 100% up to us to fix it. So, take a stand for yourself today and something will maybe probably happen! I don't guarantee it at all because this is actually extremely illogical! So grab that lava bucket and break those chests with god armor in em, and help fix the economy 1 diamond block at a time!

#lmfao
#FixTheEconomy
#Logic
#PleaseTellUsHowYou'reGoingToFixTheEconomy
#PleaseTellUsHowYou'reGoingToFixPvP
#TheSatireIsTooStrong
#Hashtag

@BenRekt I figured out the secret to fixing pvp

Click to shrink...

Alternately you could give all of your God gear to me

 

[Alj23]

@65jes89

I'll admit I laughed a little bit when I first read this thread. The satirical nature was spot on.

With that being said, and with all due respect, I feel as though you are asking for the extreme to be done when it comes to server changes. Now, don't get me wrong, sometimes the extremes work. But sometimes they go horribly wrong and have they completely unintended affects.

If we were to wipe all God Armor from the server, what keeps the prices from experiencing hyperinflation? I'm not sure if you're assuming that God Armor will go back to the original 2000 regals it started at when we changed from silver. There's a possibility that since no one would have God Armor after a wipe, we could see prices of 4000 or 6000 regals. Of course, once more people started producing armor the prices would fall and level back out, but we would literally be right back to where we are now.

It would be because we never fixed the original problem, the supply and ease of getting the armor. I wrote a thread about the supply side of MassiveCraft awhile back here. You might have seen it. It analyzes the ease and ways people make stuff on MassiveCraft, and the changes we could make to bring balance to it. It proposes fixes to some problems that exist in a balanced and gradual way, instead of going straight to the extreme. I believe that these fixes are more viable to being implemented, and offer a lot more room for staff tweaking and general acceptance than just removing everything.

I understand the frustration that resulted in this thread. I understand why you made it satirical. I don't agree that it was the best move, but I understand your reasoning behind it. I'm going to be in MassiveCraft TS for most of the day today. I encourage you and anyone else reading this to come talk to me and offer their views and opinions on anything that concerns them. I'll be creating a Google Document so everyone can write down what they wish to say, and from there I can collect your work and possibly path it into a cohesive and structured document/proposal.

 

[65jes89]

@65jes89

I'll admit I laughed a little bit when I first read this thread. The satirical nature was spot on.

With that being said, and with all due respect, I feel as though you are asking for the extreme to be done when it comes to server changes. Now, don't get me wrong, sometimes the extremes work. But sometimes they go horribly wrong and have they completely unintended affects.

If we were to wipe all God Armor from the server, what keeps the prices from experiencing hyperinflation? I'm not sure if you're assuming that God Armor will go back to the original 2000 regals it started at when we changed from silver. There's a possibility that since no one would have God Armor after a wipe, we could see prices of 4000 or 6000 regals. Of course, once more people started producing armor the prices would fall and level back out, but we would literally be right back to where we are now.

It would be because we never fixed the original problem, the supply and ease of getting the armor. I wrote a thread about the supply side of MassiveCraft awhile back here. You might have seen it. It analyzes the ease and ways people make stuff on MassiveCraft, and the changes we could make to bring balance to it. It proposes fixes to some problems that exist in a balanced and gradual way, instead of going straight to the extreme. I believe that these fixes are more viable to being implemented, and offer a lot more room for staff tweaking and general acceptance than just removing everything.

I understand the frustration that resulted in this thread. I understand why you made it satirical. I don't agree that it was the best move, but I understand your reasoning behind it. I'm going to be in MassiveCraft TS for most of the day today. I encourage you and anyone else reading this to come talk to me and offer their views and opinions on anything that concerns them. I'll be creating a Google Document so everyone can write down what they wish to say, and from there I can collect your work and possibly path it into a cohesive and structured document/proposal.

Click to shrink...

My problem isn't necessarily that my plan isn't being used. My problem is that there is no plan other than letting the gift4all's "settle out," or the above suggestion from thortuna. I just want to see something, anything done to fix it, at least partially. And in all honesty, I'd rather see 4000 regal armor sets than 40 regal ones. If we reduce the armor supply that much, it will eventually get lower, but the way the server is currently set up, the armor is not going to go anywhere but further down.

This thread was not so much aimed towards my issues with thortuna's response to my thread on armor, but rather the frustration which most pvpers are feeling as of late about pretty much everything. God armor, fix/repair, damage, lag, etc. It's rare that the pvp community ever gets any kind of response from staff members for weeks after they ask something, and staff hardly, if ever bother to ask the pvp community their opinions on something before they implement it. That's what I have a problem with.

 

[leichendame]

Massivecraft is still the best server ever in my book.It's so amazing.I rarely play other servers and when I do they are mini-game servers.I'm not obsessed with MC I'm obsessed with Massivecraft.Unlike other faction servers we actually build bases that look nice your average non Massivecraft player would cry upon seeing some of these builds.We have RP and like 500 pages of lore.We have traits that I couldn't live without.So I fully support these God4Alls I want this server to stay up.Also maybe more god is a good thing we have the merchants losing money so more chances for others to rise.And pvp is mostly centered around a few factions.With these god4alls so many new players can PVP and makes it feel more realistic.The fact that these are newer players makes it look like they are Militia and you are the Imperial Army.So yeah.I support God4Alls for the sake of the server.

 

[Zacatero]

In all sincerity, it's extremely frustrating when I get answers like this to well thought out threads like the one this reply was made on, and just complete denial of the problems on other threads. There is a problem, it's pissing people off, and despite asking for plans, making suggestions, replies, etc, there's still nothing being done.

This thread wasn't made to offend anyone, it's simply to show the frustrations of those of us who care about the server.

Click to shrink...

This Thread really insinuates that the staff don't care about the server. Which they do. I doubt any of them would be taking all this shit for free if they didnt care.

 

[TheFinitePeach]

I like the satire @65jes89 I think a good analogy to this is a guy who's watching a train wreck in slow motion. He know's whats happening, he's known whats going to happen for a while but he's still powerless to stop it. I feel like at some point if changes were made this could have been avoided but at this point the supply is so ludicrously high even if the incoming supply was reduced to zero the surplus could quite possibly last for years.

 

[65jes89]

This Thread really insinuates that the staff don't care about the server. Which they do. I doubt any of them would be taking all this shit for free if they didnt care.

Click to shrink...

Honestly I'm not going to bother arguing with you anymore. I disagree, and have stated why I do so, and yet you refuse to actually say anything about my counterarguments, and instead just bringing up new things you think I did incorrectly. I do not think they do not care. I do think they are completely ignoring the problem however, or at least just refusing to give us any acknowledgement that they are attempting to fix it.

 

[MonMarty]

These numbers are either rounded up or down for ease of calculations, and they may not be entirely representative as the exact dating for EULA conversion is not yet covered by a month. We cannot get accurate financial data until the end of April, but this at least a shot at it.

Server income for 2016-01-01 to 2016-02-01 was 6400
Server income for 2016-03-01 to 2016-04-01 was 6000

From a Eula swap perspective, we lost 6% income. That's totally manageable. But this comes from sales increase on Gift4All. Premium went from 6000 to 4500, losing 25%. This loss is made up by 66% Gift4All, counted to 1000, and then some little minor things here and there. So basically in conclusion, Gift4All is making the server lose very little in terms of financial stability after the Eula change, something a lot of people predicted was going to end MassiveCraft.

6000 Dollars a month for running Massive seems pretty sweet right? multiply that by 12 and you get a stacking 72,000 a year. Thing is that we pay taxes. Then also the server upkeep is expensive (with anti DDoS protections and what not), hosting from an expensive hosting service in Texas last time I checked. What actually comes out at the end of the day is slightly below an average Chinese factory employee in terms of wages, which is just enough for Cayorion to validate working on MassiveCraft full time. Only Cayorion takes the profits from MassiveCraft. No staff member receives any money from the donations or Gift4All systems.

The thing is. the EULA situation got everyone sort of scrambling and tossing stones into a dark pond with no clear bottom, we had no clue how to predict the loss of premium sales or the success of other sale packages. So when looking at the Gift4All, there's obviously great advantages in that it nearly undoes whatever income loss the server suffered, but then all the attached problems arise. So what can we do about those?

• We can consider increasing the price. Making it less appealing to purchase by it being more expensive. This may lose us income however, as it mostly thrives off not seeming "too" expensive. Originally the set price was actually 15 USD, almost double, but myself and some other Directors campaigned to have it lowered. We can discuss raising it again.
• Thortuna raised up the idea of an armor shredding event with mobs specifically geared towards eating up armor but with super rare loot. I don't fully know the logistics of whether this is even possible or will be implemented, but I'm sure tuna will give it her attention.
• Find some sort of plugin to exchange Gift4All items into Regals. This is going to be very difficult. Cayorion indicated that the Quest system at least is too "dumb" to recognize items in players hands. Now I know for a fact that most roleplayers dont care for the Gift4All items and just /trash them or throw them on the street when they are roleplaying. I think it would help everyone if for example there was a command that could sell all these things for a fixed 100 Regals each price.
• Coming up with new cool server boosts that can be given to everyone. If Gift4All becomes less necessary because there is other Boost4All purchases that people like, maybe we can consider phasing them out or making them so expensive they truly are just a novelty.

What probably doesn't help is:

• Twisting Thortuna's message out of context to the point where she gets irritated and demotivated to help.
• Trolling the staff and players who are spending effort to try and help out.

Try to keep things productive please. Remember that everyone is just stabbing in the dark at the whole financial stability situation. The staff are just a little bit more informed because we have access to bookmaking and financial ledgers to show where money comes in and how players react to change in terms of purchases.

 

[65jes89]

I'm just going to address the last section for now, I'll get to the bottom later.

Twisting Thortuna's message out of context to the point where she gets irritated and demotivated to help.

Click to shrink...

First off, this was not meant to target thortuna. She just happened to be the one who said it. Secondly, I really don't think it was at all out of context. I was essentially told on my thread, which I had spent a decent amount of time on, that we should fix it ourselves by throwing away our own stashes, because gift4all's legally cannot be removed, which turned out to be false. So that honestly did annoy me quite a bit, and I don't think it was at all out of context. Exaggerated, sure. But not out of context.

Trolling the staff and players who are spending effort to try and help out.

Click to shrink...

This was literally the only way I could get a halfway decent answer from staff. I waited a pretty reasonable amount of time, in my opinion, for a decent answer to my thread, other than the answer which I have above satirized. I got no other suggestions on an alternate way to fix the problem from any staff members, until now you, which I had to create this thread to get your attention, apparently. So in my opinion, this thread has achieved its purpose and was rather productive in getting a decent answer from the staff.

I'll reply to the rest of the thread in a bit.

 

[Jackmo_Jones]

These numbers are either rounded up or down for ease of calculations, and they may not be entirely representative as the exact dating for EULA conversion is not yet covered by a month. We cannot get accurate financial data until the end of April, but this at least a shot at it.

Server income for 2016-01-01 to 2016-02-01 was 6400
Server income for 2016-03-01 to 2016-04-01 was 6000

From a Eula swap perspective, we lost 6% income. That's totally manageable. But this comes from sales increase on Gift4All. Premium went from 6000 to 4500, losing 25%. This loss is made up by 66% Gift4All, counted to 1000, and then some little minor things here and there. So basically in conclusion, Gift4All is making the server lose very little in terms of financial stability after the Eula change, something a lot of people predicted was going to end MassiveCraft.

6000 Dollars a month for running Massive seems pretty sweet right? multiply that by 12 and you get a stacking 72,000 a year. Thing is that we pay taxes. Then also the server upkeep is expensive (with anti DDoS protections and what not), hosting from an expensive hosting service in Texas last time I checked. What actually comes out at the end of the day is slightly below an average Chinese factory employee in terms of wages, which is just enough for Cayorion to validate working on MassiveCraft full time. Only Cayorion takes the profits from MassiveCraft. No staff member receives any money from the donations or Gift4All systems.

The thing is. the EULA situation got everyone sort of scrambling and tossing stones into a dark pond with no clear bottom, we had no clue how to predict the loss of premium sales or the success of other sale packages. So when looking at the Gift4All, there's obviously great advantages in that it nearly undoes whatever income loss the server suffered, but then all the attached problems arise. So what can we do about those?

• We can consider increasing the price. Making it less appealing to purchase by it being more expensive. This may lose us income however, as it mostly thrives off not seeming "too" expensive. Originally the set price was actually 15 USD, almost double, but myself and some other Directors campaigned to have it lowered. We can discuss raising it again.
• Thortuna raised up the idea of an armor shredding event with mobs specifically geared towards eating up armor but with super rare loot. I don't fully know the logistics of whether this is even possible or will be implemented, but I'm sure tuna will give it her attention.
• Find some sort of plugin to exchange Gift4All items into Regals. This is going to be very difficult. Cayorion indicated that the Quest system at least is too "dumb" to recognize items in players hands. Now I know for a fact that most roleplayers dont care for the Gift4All items and just /trash them or throw them on the street when they are roleplaying. I think it would help everyone if for example there was a command that could sell all these things for a fixed 100 Regals each price.
• Coming up with new cool server boosts that can be given to everyone. If Gift4All becomes less necessary because there is other Boost4All purchases that people like, maybe we can consider phasing them out or making them so expensive they truly are just a novelty.

What probably doesn't help is:

• Twisting Thortuna's message out of context to the point where she gets irritated and demotivated to help.
• Trolling the staff and players who are spending effort to try and help out.

Try to keep things productive please. Remember that everyone is just stabbing in the dark at the whole financial stability situation. The staff are just a little bit more informed because we have access to bookmaking and financial ledgers to show where money comes in and how players react to change in terms of purchases.

Click to shrink...

It's a little concerning that even with the Gift4alls the server still made less this month. Those Gift4alls have vastly reduced in numbers so that means the next financial period will be much worse. If it's true that all the donations barely make a livable wage I would think it won't be long before Massive isn't sustainable anymore. :/

 

[Addrion]

I don't know where you're getting this idea that Thortuna was wrong when she told you that something obtained through Gift4All couldn't be removed from the server after the purchase. This is 100% true. It is different when it comes to features given from buying premium, we inform the person who gets the premium that these may change. That would be something like us deciding to remove a command because it gave an advantage we didn't foresee, or removing a plugin that premiums were given access to because it is out of date or broken. A Gift4All is an item that you plainly purchase. Removing them from the server would require us to give a refund to the person who purchased them since they no longer have the item they paid for.

You can rest assured that members of the staff do read your posts, just generally they are not worth responding to. Most threads have ideas in them that were already discussed and awaiting implementation, or contain ideas we could never use. Responding to these would be a waste of time and effort. Instead we take the good ideas and try to find a way to use them. Your previous ideas fell into the second category, ideas we could never use. Removing the items on the server that people paid to have put onto the server would be a logistical and legal nightmare.

I do have a couple questions for anyone who is concerned about the Gift4All:

1: What alternative item ideas do you have to replace them? (These should be things you would actually want to pay money for.)

2: Would you rather have your armor worth 20r and a server to play on, or not have Gift4All and risk losing this server?

Because the answer to #2 can't be the second option unless you can provide helpful answers to the first. We cannot remove something that is helping to pay for the server unless we have something to replace it.

 

[BenRekt]

I don't know where you're getting this idea that Thortuna was wrong when she told you that something obtained through Gift4All couldn't be removed from the server after the purchase. This is 100% true. It is different when it comes to features given from buying premium, we inform the person who gets the premium that these may change. That would be something like us deciding to remove a command because it gave an advantage we didn't foresee, or removing a plugin that premiums were given access to because it is out of date or broken. A Gift4All is an item that you plainly purchase. Removing them from the server would require us to give a refund to the person who purchased them since they no longer have the item they paid for.

You can rest assured that members of the staff do read your posts, just generally they are not worth responding to. Most threads have ideas in them that were already discussed and awaiting implementation, or contain ideas we could never use. Responding to these would be a waste of time and effort. Instead we take the good ideas and try to find a way to use them. Your previous ideas fell into the second category, ideas we could never use. Removing the items on the server that people paid to have put onto the server would be a logistical and legal nightmare.

I do have a couple questions for anyone who is concerned about the Gift4All:

1: What alternative item ideas do you have to replace them? (These should be things you would actually want to pay money for.)

2: Would you rather have your armor worth 20r and a server to play on, or not have Gift4All and risk losing this server?

Because the answer to #2 can't be the second option unless you can provide helpful answers to the first. We cannot remove something that is helping to pay for the server unless we have something to replace it.

Click to shrink...

Last I checked there were already like 3-4 posts with some GOOD replacements for Gifts4All by myself and @pokyug . Pokyugs idea's would be easy as hell to implement but I don't think its gotten any attention because the only posts that get any real attention are the super outrageous ones, like this one, for example.

 

[Jackmo_Jones]

As much as I rely on the servers economy for a large portion of my MassiveCraft enjoyment I honestly believe out of the servers problems it is lowest priority. Highest priority is obviously keeping the server afloat, second would be fixing damage so people wanna PvP in the first place because why do we even need weapons and armor if nobody enjoys the PvP and nobody does it. Worst comes to worst the economy is the easiest thing to fix. I know staff like to take a hands off approach with the economy to allow us to create our own but in the end the economy could be fixed by simply opening a server shop where we can unload all our extra gear for regals. Once supplies dissipate a bit they can remove the shop and let us have full control again.

From what they have said they are trying to find solutions for the damage and we all know they for sure are doing what they can to bring in donations so they are working and IMO their focus is where it should be at this moment. The economy can't really get any worse and there are things in place like the voting regal increase if people just flat out cannot figure a way to make money from the economy.

 

[Thortuna]

We have noticed yours and pokyugs suggestions, its why its not rejected, we have written them down, we also already had some of the same idea @BenRekt but implementation and figuring out how to do everything and make it eula compliant is taking a bit of time.

 

[Addrion]

Last I checked there were already like 3-4 posts with some GOOD replacements for Gifts4All by myself and @pokyug . Pokyugs idea's would be easy as hell to implement but I don't think its gotten any attention because the only posts that get any real attention are the super outrageous ones, like this one, for example.

Click to shrink...

I am pretty sure I read the thread from Pokyug who was under the impression that some frankly difficult features would be easy to implement [Ideas of making custom lore items to replace armor4all] This would require a custom program to be made to allow for variable feature selection, he also integrated flat out impossible ideas like a peach colored lore which isn't even available in minecraft formatting, same with pink. The last idea was pretty decent, and I told Thortuna I liked the idea of a lore item list that gave everyone a random item. Paradoxically this is the easiest one to do, but the one he believed would be the hardest.

My above question stands, if I offered you a set of enchanted gold armor for $9 per piece would you buy it? I don't think you would, I wouldn't buy it either. So we are left without any income from the idea. Which in my opinion makes it a not so "GOOD" idea due to the lack of income it would generate. We have some rather great ideas that I feel will be fun, enticing and entertaining for other people but unfortunately we are waiting on plugin development to use them, which takes time.

 

[Nightbye1]

not to be negative but this seems like one of those famos plots from jes to get every one vulnerable then he goes nuts on a killing spree.... just saying... but hey what do i know XD he may want to actually fix the economy

 

[Savantly]

People could work towards removing the economy from PVP entirely. You don't need PVP to be profitable, because PVP should be fun in of itself. I mean, we all /love/ how interactive, well made, and skillful PVP is don't we? So who needs a reward for PVPing when you can just PVP for fun.

Only god items have become worthless, diamonds, gold, and all the other staples of the economy should still be fine to trade. I'm sure people will still be buying and selling building materials as well. Just separate the economy's need for PVP to support it and you're done.

Click to shrink...

Too much god armor, so throw it all out to bring prices up.

Click to shrink...

The Economy is completely dependant on supply and demand. God armor gets demanded when players....
A) Shred their Armor in the darkroom (Mostly PvPers)
B) Shred their armor in PvP (Mostly PvPers)
C) Transferring a chest full of god gear, magically fall into a pit of lava and die. (Mostly PvPers)
D) Storages are magically world edited out of the factions universe.

All these things have happened to me at one point in the server. So this does happen. God armor tends to rise in supply when....
A) The server changes to 1.8 enchanting (Which made enchanting way easier, which I mentioned on a separate post)
"250 EXP levels before the 1.8 update was just enough to make 183 lv30 enchants.
Now with the enchanting system on the server 250 EXP is enough to make 829.9 enchants.
That means its 4.5 Times easier to enchant. 4.5 times more easy to obtain the enchants you need.
4.5 times more easy to get a god sword. 4.5 times more easy to get god armor.
It is far easier to make god armor than there is demand for it. Its almost as easy as the fishing ages to get god armor now. Not quite, but close.
That is why it is bad."
B) Gift4Alls give players all the god gear they need to play the game. (Over the past 5 days I've received 2 sets of god armor and about 10 god tools/weapons). I don't know about you, but players don't need much more than that much gear in a week, and if they do then thats 2 less gear sets that they will go out and make.
C) Looting Cowboys1919's storage, he had over 18 doublechests by the time he had stopped fishing (Even after selling gear in his richshop for months). Fishing made it possible to get a set of god armor every 2-3 hours (Not to mention the enormous amount of EXP that could be used for enchanting)
Suggesting to remove pvp from the economy makes no sense what so ever. Because without PvP there is no demand and with no demand there are no sales made on the market. Not to mention that people really only use diamonds to make diamond gear for pvp or make beacons for their darkroom (Which they train in to get their stats up).

Doubt it, the lag, the victim mentality of 90% of the factions and the broken economy have always been here. I want to have some hope but there have been too many empty promises to count.

Add in the new EULA, gifts4all and no fix for hit-registration after ~3 years, I don't think a lot of people will continue to buy premium out of wanting to support the server.

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False, players keep saying that people won't buy premium after in-game benefits are removed, roleplayers account for a good amount of the servers premium donations. And what do they get out of it? Nothing lol
@MonMarty Is there a way of verifying how many roleplayer donate to the server? And btw your avatar weirds the shit out of me xD

I don't know where you're getting this idea that Thortuna was wrong when she told you that something obtained through Gift4All couldn't be removed from the server after the purchase. This is 100% true. It is different when it comes to features given from buying premium, we inform the person who gets the premium that these may change. That would be something like us deciding to remove a command because it gave an advantage we didn't foresee, or removing a plugin that premiums were given access to because it is out of date or broken. A Gift4All is an item that you plainly purchase. Removing them from the server would require us to give a refund to the person who purchased them since they no longer have the item they paid for.

You can rest assured that members of the staff do read your posts, just generally they are not worth responding to. Most threads have ideas in them that were already discussed and awaiting implementation, or contain ideas we could never use. Responding to these would be a waste of time and effort. Instead we take the good ideas and try to find a way to use them. Your previous ideas fell into the second category, ideas we could never use. Removing the items on the server that people paid to have put onto the server would be a logistical and legal nightmare.

I do have a couple questions for anyone who is concerned about the Gift4All:

1: What alternative item ideas do you have to replace them? (These should be things you would actually want to pay money for.)

2: Would you rather have your armor worth 20r and a server to play on, or not have Gift4All and risk losing this server?

Because the answer to #2 can't be the second option unless you can provide helpful answers to the first. We cannot remove something that is helping to pay for the server unless we have something to replace it.

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Have you not read my Thread?

 

[Savantly]

I am pretty sure I read the thread from Pokyug who was under the impression that some frankly difficult features would be easy to implement [Ideas of making custom lore items to replace armor4all] This would require a custom program to be made to allow for variable feature selection, he also integrated flat out impossible ideas like a peach colored lore which isn't even available in minecraft formatting, same with pink. The last idea was pretty decent, and I told Thortuna I liked the idea of a lore item list that gave everyone a random item. Paradoxically this is the easiest one to do, but the one he believed would be the hardest.

My above question stands, if I offered you a set of enchanted gold armor for $9 per piece would you buy it? I don't think you would, I wouldn't buy it either. So we are left without any income from the idea. Which in my opinion makes it a not so "GOOD" idea due to the lack of income it would generate. We have some rather great ideas that I feel will be fun, enticing and entertaining for other people but unfortunately we are waiting on plugin development to use them, which takes time.

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MC Color Guide? I've looked at the command for giving a player a lored item. Giving players a players different colored lore items is completely feasible xD
Pink color not available? &d <--- Color for pink
But yeah, peach you can't get.

 

[Addrion]

Have you not read my Thread?

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Should be pretty obvious that I read your thread when I talk about specifics of it in my posts like:

This would require a custom program to be made to allow for variable feature selection, he also integrated flat out impossible ideas like a peach colored lore which isn't even available in minecraft formatting, same with pink.

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ArmorSet4All
Would allow for the player buying to:
1. Pick an armor of their choosing (Leather, or Chain).
2. (Player)'s (Fancy/Party/Assassin/Etc.) Cap/Curiass/Leggings/Boots
3. Choose from basic enchants or derp enchants.
Ex. Flame 1, Fortune 1, Outgoing 1, Trippy 1, Swag 3
4. Custom lore, alternative lore color (Like Peach or Pink)

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Edit: &d is listed as "Light purple" and looks that way to me.

 

[65jes89]

My above question stands, if I offered you a set of enchanted gold armor for $9 per piece would you buy it? I don't think you would, I wouldn't buy it either.

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Do you actually think people are paying $9 for a piece of god armor? Because they're not. They're doing it for the recognition and to support the server. Nobody in their right mind would pay $9 for a piece of god armor, nor would they pay for a piece of enchanted gold armor. They would pay $9 to support the server. The only difference is that one of these options ruins the economy and the other does not.

I don't know where you're getting this idea that Thortuna was wrong when she told you that something obtained through Gift4All couldn't be removed from the server after the purchase. This is 100% true. It is different when it comes to features given from buying premium, we inform the person who gets the premium that these may change. That would be something like us deciding to remove a command because it gave an advantage we didn't foresee, or removing a plugin that premiums were given access to because it is out of date or broken. A Gift4All is an item that you plainly purchase. Removing them from the server would require us to give a refund to the person who purchased them since they no longer have the item they paid for.

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I'm essentially going to rewrite the same thing I wrote on my other thread concerning this matter, but I'll do it anyways in case something was unclear in that other post.

This is from the Shop Terms and Conditions page. (https://www.massivecraft.com/shop-terms)

We likewise reserve the rights to fully remove products without any refunds at all.

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To me this sounds exactly like what it says. MassiveCraft/Cayorion reserves the right to fully remove a product without any refunds at all. The Gift4Alls are products. Massive reserves the right, therefor, to fully remove Gift4Alls without any refunds at all. I don't really understand what about this doesn't state that the server cannot remove the gift4alls without refunding the players. And again, the most that people could care about the gift4alls are as a sentimental thing... not much more than one of the voting items with their name on it. Because, again, nobody in their right mind would pay $9 for a god armor piece. They donate for the recognition and to help the server, and the armor piece is a sentimental thankyou item, that happens to have a use as a god armor piece and is ruining the economy.

You can rest assured that members of the staff do read your posts, just generally they are not worth responding to.

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In that case just remove the entire damned feature suggestion section.

Most threads have ideas in them that were already discussed and awaiting implementation, or contain ideas we could never use.

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Then perhaps if we actually ever heard anything about features before they were implemented we could save a hell of a lot of time writing suggestion threads.

Responding to these would be a waste of time and effort.

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As is the time that we put into the posts then.

1: What alternative item ideas do you have to replace them? (These should be things you would actually want to pay money for.)

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There are so many threads on this it's not even funny. Maybe check some of those posts that you deemed a waste of time and effort to respond to?

2: Would you rather have your armor worth 20r and a server to play on, or not have Gift4All and risk losing this server?

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Erm... the middle like several threads have suggested? Lower the enchants, turn the items to gold, whatever... See further up in this post as to why it doesn't really matter if the enchants are lowered.

We can consider increasing the price. Making it less appealing to purchase by it being more expensive. This may lose us income however, as it mostly thrives off not seeming "too" expensive. Originally the set price was actually 15 USD, almost double, but myself and some other Directors campaigned to have it lowered. We can discuss raising it again.

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Personally, I'd suggest a tiered system like what supposed to eventually happen the last time all of the EULA business happened. If not, then allow for people to choose the amount they donate, perhaps?

• Thortuna raised up the idea of an armor shredding event with mobs specifically geared towards eating up armor but with super rare loot. I don't fully know the logistics of whether this is even possible or will be implemented, but I'm sure tuna will give it her attention.

• Find some sort of plugin to exchange Gift4All items into Regals. This is going to be very difficult. Cayorion indicated that the Quest system at least is too "dumb" to recognize items in players hands. Now I know for a fact that most roleplayers dont care for the Gift4All items and just /trash them or throw them on the street when they are roleplaying. I think it would help everyone if for example there was a command that could sell all these things for a fixed 100 Regals each price.

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Both sound fine to me. Dozens of other ideas similar to these have been suggested on other threads with purposes entirely dedicated to ideas like these.

From a Eula swap perspective, we lost 6% income. That's totally manageable. But this comes from sales increase on Gift4All. Premium went from 6000 to 4500, losing 25%. This loss is made up by 66% Gift4All, counted to 1000, and then some little minor things here and there. So basically in conclusion, Gift4All is making the server lose very little in terms of financial stability after the Eula change, something a lot of people predicted was going to end MassiveCraft.

6000 Dollars a month for running Massive seems pretty sweet right? multiply that by 12 and you get a stacking 72,000 a year. Thing is that we pay taxes. Then also the server upkeep is expensive (with anti DDoS protections and what not), hosting from an expensive hosting service in Texas last time I checked. What actually comes out at the end of the day is slightly below an average Chinese factory employee in terms of wages, which is just enough for Cayorion to validate working on MassiveCraft full time. Only Cayorion takes the profits from MassiveCraft. No staff member receives any money from the donations or Gift4All systems.

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If gift4all is truly the only thing keeping Massive afloat... Well then I don't know. Because gift4alls have had a very obvious drop in number as of late... Of course the economic effects of them are still around...

 

[MonMarty]

Well. I'm in a bit of a dilemma. Saying Massive can survive without gift4all leads people to assume we should scrap it. If I say Massive cannot survive without it, players get pessimistic and announce the end of Massive. If I say we need less donations, people actually stop donating "because someone else will" and if I say we need more donations, players get pessimistic and announce the end of Massive.

There seems to literally not be a good answer at all. So I'll just say nothing about the financial situation : D

Just know that Massive will continue "even if we have to host it from a home computer" according to Cayorion's words.

 

[65jes89]

Well. I'm in a bit of a dilemma. Saying Massive can survive without gift4all leads people to assume we should scrap it. If I say Massive cannot survive without it, players get pessimistic and announce the end of Massive. If I say we need less donations, people actually stop donating "because someone else will" and if I say we need more donations, players get pessimistic and announce the end of Massive.

There seems to literally not be a good answer at all. So I'll just say nothing about the financial situation : D

Just know that Massive will continue "even if we have to host it from a home computer" according to Cayorion's words.

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I would say the good answer would be replacing gift4alls, as suggested countless times in the last few weeks...

 

[Addrion]

I feel like you have a bit of a misunderstanding of things I have said. Just because I said we don't respond to everything doesn't mean it isn't valuable. Sure lots of ideas are impossible, but would be cool if they were able to be done. But to say that making a suggestion thread is pointless if nobody tells you good job seems a bit depressing. I stated in my original post that "Instead we take the good ideas and try to find a way to use them". It is true that some threads get responses, those are usually ones that have ambiguity to their desires or something we may want to use, but would like more input. If you don't get a response it is likely any good idea you posted was clear enough for us to understand and implement it if we can without more input.

You also seem to think that people donate to get recognition and not just for the item. I will admit this may be the case for some people, it still seems odd to me that people are donating for the $9 armor or tool rather than the $5 cake or stew. Also strange that even out of the $9 purchases more people buy the weapons or armor, and not many buy the hoe or fishing rod. It seems to me like this is because the do want that item more than the recognition. I asked if you could offer other items you would actually pay money for and instead of giving a suggestion you just try to tell me to go read other threads. Which doesn't really provide me with much to work with. I wanted to know what You would actually want and pay for but instead you told me to go look at what other people want.

 

[Zacatero]

I just want to point out that Jes the shop term thing is referring to the premium thing which is listed as a donation since you aren't getting anything physically from it but instead are getting more privileges which can be removed at any time because of what addrion said about unforeseen command things or whatnot

 

[Addrion]

I would say the good answer would be replacing gift4alls, as suggested countless times in the last few weeks...

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From a Eula swap perspective, we lost 6% income. That's totally manageable. But this comes from sales increase on Gift4All. Premium went from 6000 to 4500, losing 25%. This loss is made up by 66% Gift4All

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2: Would you rather have your armor worth 20r and a server to play on, or not have Gift4All and risk losing this server?

Because the answer to #2 can't be the second option unless you can provide helpful answers to the first. We cannot remove something that is helping to pay for the server unless we have something to replace it.

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What Marty is saying is that when we swapped over to EULA compliance in our premium package we saw a decrease of 25% in revenue. 66% of this was made back by Gift4All. Meaning that about 17% of our income is from Gift4All.

As I stated and Marty suggested, we cannot remove the Gift4All unless we have something that can conceivably cover the gap that removing Gift4All would generate. Saying "Just remove it" does't help to generate ideas of what we can do to make up for the money that would not be generated without it. We have looked at suggestion threads, ideas we agree with we will attempt to integrate, but until we can support the server without the Gift4All I would say it is highly unlikely to be removed.