Pending Review The Issue Of Overclaiming

Discussion in 'Factions' started by Visarovich, Sep 13, 2019.

  1. Jalapeno690

    Jalapeno690 Doge of Helvetica

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  2. Herecy

    Herecy Demon king & Founder of Wrath

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    i refuse to play with "peaceful factions" being a thing to begin with. Therefore, this post seems very obsolete.
    However, with factions truly being in a stagnant phase i could see ANY of these suggestions greatly improving the server. The only reason i say that is because there isnt shit happening, and pvp was always the only thing that made factions exciting and gave people initiative to build and be someone.
     
  3. Zacatero

    Zacatero give a quack to wingback
    1. *✴︎ Cadun ✴︎*

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    PVP by itself did not, no. If that were true, this idea would be a resounding success with the community. This idea in theory would inact more PVP, if and only if the majority of the players actually stayed playing, or even go outside their base anymore due to fear of dying and getting their stuff overclaimed.
     
  4. Morbytogan

    Morbytogan King of Desolation, Emperor of the Isolated Empire

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    Tbh I think my outpost idea was better, and it was much better received by others. The premise is this:

    - Creative Gates range is limited and ally tp is forbidden.
    - The server has castles / outposts built around the map.
    - Each week there would be a KOTH for each outposts. The winning faction of the KOTH would then get given that outpost for that week and would have the power to /tp to it.

    This would provide meaningful PvP as the winner gets a benefit (however it is not overpowered) of being able to tp around the map. Further, it would encourage players to explore more if they cannot simply /tp everywhere which would lead to more of an adventuring side of MassiveCraft opening and would make the server feel more alive as people run past both abandoned and thriving factions.

    I feel that it would be exciting new content for the server and shouldn't be too hard to set up. It could even be written into Lore. It also does not require the idea of "peaceful factions" which many players are strongly against.

    <0/


    @Edrom @Visarovich @Herecy
     
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  5. AlcibiadesS

    AlcibiadesS

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    I really like @Morbytogan's idea, and even if it didn't include the restrictions on gates or /tp I think that it would still attract people. Having more places to tp to is always welcome for pretty much everyone in a faction, and it gives big bragging rights that can attract new players to joining those factions. Plus, even if you couldn't edit the whole build itself, it'd probably be a good idea to have a portion like outside that they could like, set up shops or creative gates. That would give those outposts even more value.
     
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  6. Jalapeno690

    Jalapeno690 Doge of Helvetica

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    @kniferharm @ZACGAMR7 @Winterless take a quick look at this
     
  7. Winterless

    Winterless would never ERP
    1. Argost

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    I think it'll just lead to a deathballing of factions who don't have enough PvPers to compete, and it'll lead to factions being raided into the ground whilst it takes them 3x as long to mount any kind of counter-offensive.

    I think it'd work well on a new world though
     
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  8. AlcibiadesS

    AlcibiadesS

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    Another idea for the outposts, you could have "strategic resources" at each one that whichever faction that takes it over gets to claim. For example, cows, sheep, pigs, and even mooshrooms. Or maybe just a bunch of materials like iron or some tools or food or whatever. Certain outposts could "produce" different resources. A quarry outpost might have ores as loot while the farmland would have food or animals, a castle/tower would have tools and weapons, an alchemist's shop would have potions, etc. That way different factions would prioritize different outposts. Smaller factions with less PvPers could contend for the lumberyard or quarry or such, to get wood, stone, that sort of thing. I'd imagine most factions with the force high enough would try to go for animals or the weapons/potions. Rarer materials too. This way you essentially have "tiers" of PvP in which the outposts with bigger rewards would attract more players. And that's not to stop smaller factions from actually using the alliance system and forming a larger band to raid one outpost then share the loot and share the space through permissions. All this would require is announcing what loot would be "produced" by each outpost and what other things you gain by stationing there (such as shop/gate areas).
     
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  9. Morbytogan

    Morbytogan King of Desolation, Emperor of the Isolated Empire

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    I don't see why this would occur. Could you explain further?
     
  10. Winterless

    Winterless would never ERP
    1. Argost

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    Because a PvP faction can claim one of these outposts and have an easy pivot point by which to attack any faction nearby to it. Any of these factions that wish to stage a counter-offensive would have to spend a presumably substantially higher amount of time travelling to the enemy base to stage a counterattack. It seems to me like the equivalent of giving PvP factions exclusive access to ally f home and raid portals.
     
  11. Morbytogan

    Morbytogan King of Desolation, Emperor of the Isolated Empire

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    I can see your point, however please remember these outposts would be relatively scarce, and that just as one can attack from an outpost, they could also be attacked at the outpost.
     
  12. Winterless

    Winterless would never ERP
    1. Argost

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    Sure, but it adds an extreme level of map traversibility for PvP factions that would allow them to easily launch an attack on faction with comparatively low chances of a counter-attack or being detected.
     
  13. Morbytogan

    Morbytogan King of Desolation, Emperor of the Isolated Empire

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    True, but I also believe that it would create a great incentive for the “noob” factions to work hard in becoming more defended, and improving their military. A number of players I have spoke to (who do not usually engage in PvP) have already expressed a keen interest in contesting these Outposts and even getting their friends into it. I believe it would certainly increase interest in PvP and factions survival in general as it is no longer a stale battlefield where one side can just run inside where you might get a meaningless kill occasionally for a fairly high risk - instead it is a battle for territory in a living, dynamic survival world. Map control would be constantly changing as factions contest Outposts and it would certainly spark some new life into factions. Granted - it will not save factions. No single change could; we need a great series of changes and additions of content. But this could be one addition which would require very little tech work, especially as the KOTH plugin is already underwork. We need to flood the world with content and this could be one step of that. It would certainly be more interesting than your standard King of the Hill as it actually has an impact on the PvP scene instead of one guy being able to darkroom a bit easier.
     
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  14. Zacatero

    Zacatero give a quack to wingback
    1. *✴︎ Cadun ✴︎*

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    We need changes that are committed to. If Crisis of Kings was forced upon every denizen of the factions world it wouldn't have failed. But these changes need to be something that can work with this playerbase and the values and ideals that have defined Massive. The overclaim idea does not.
     
  15. Winterless

    Winterless would never ERP
    1. Argost

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    I think this idea falls under the camp of a "negative incentive" where the "incentive" is "get better or you and your faction will be run into the ground". Honestly, we've seen that idea play out a bunch in different forms on this server and I don't think it's going to work if we just keep throwing different iterations of the same core concept at people. There should be a positive incentive to get involved, not a necessity to get involved for fear of your faction being a minute's notice away from being raided by the faction outpost close to you.

    Honestly, I think people just don't want to admit that it is a far easier and more convenient choice for a faction to build underground or quit entirely when faced with the prospect of having to raise an army to compete in PvP. There isn't enough of a positive reason to get involved, only negative reasons and situations that compel them into defending, even if they're hopelessly outmatched, outskilled, and out-equipped.

    I do not think that removing a core part of the survival experience for the last several years on massive (portals, ally f home) and then spoonfeeding it back to people counts as something that would increase activity. Battle for territory is ultimately meaningless if it has no longterm effect, goal, or auxiliary rewards associated with it. At that point, it's pushing numbers on a screen.

    Honestly? I disagree that it'll have any longterm effect on the PvP scene and people's interest in it. All I see from this is raids slowing down, and people taking longer to repot and longer to arrive in the first place. The fundamental PvP experience that you get when you arrive is exactly the same as before - which is for many boring, inconsistent/laggy, and without seemingly any deeper reason or motivation. It's fundamentally still expedient; all that this idea changes is the part building up to it, which is hardly the issue with PvP at the moment.
     
  16. MyCatBubbles

    MyCatBubbles Massivecrafts Schizo

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    I think I've already put this thing to rest. People still want to participate in factions, but they don't want to participate to the point where their shit gets completely jacked. The current narrative around peaceful is complete isolation, people don't want to be completely isolated (maybe aside from Asteria) and still do want to try to pvp etc.
     
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  17. Jemo_

    Jemo_ Refugee
    1. Thaelith

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    Dumbest proposal I've heard to be implemented on this server.
    Let's break it down.

    • What's the appeal of (factions) Massive? The pvp? I'm sorry but no, there are a lot of faction servers where there's pot pvp and McMMO. The diplomacy? Yes, but not completely, cause no noob joins and sticks for the diplomacy, because they're new and can't participate in it. The medieval factions? This was the appeal for me to stick when I first joined, the time and effort people put into it building an amazing environment. It felt like an actual medieval esque world, with towns, cities, camps, towers, roads etc. Most people who joined my faction always said something along the lines of "Woah this looks amazing" (my builds aren't of the highest quality, but compared to other servers they were amazed). They could be part of a city inside of a medieval world. With overclaiming most people won't bother building nice things. ((Also it's not cause you guys can't build you have to be overtaking people's nice builds))
    • Peaceful factions is something we had before, but why did they exist? It were factions where there was only RP and building going on. The players had 0 interest in PvP, or they were landmarks that needed to be kept around. Most factions are polyvalent, there are PvPers, builders, RPers and people who just want to play survival or explore. What you would end up with these peaceful factions you guys are proposing is a further divide between all these groups. History has shown that dividing groups on Massive has led to less activity (RP and PvP being more divided leading to the dying of factions).
    • Why is the outpost idea dumb? I don't know how many people are aware of the "core" idea, but it the outpost idea is just a version of that but worse. Why? What's the point of building cities if the fights happen outside them, fighting in cities and towns is pretty bloody fun. Also requires a lot of Tech work.
    • How can the outpost idea be good? Simple, outposts are implemented together with the core. Holding outposts grants small bonusses, whilst the core is the "big target". Outposts are variable and could provide protection for the core (making it harder to destroy or whatnot).
    • What's the actual issue why everyone is so annoyed? The player base is going down. Why? I can't give an actual explenation, but I can speculate. First of all: MineCraft is getting old (even though with the nostalgia hype right now, the playerbase is less eager to be as dedicated and is more likely to play solo survival for once or some minigames or whatnot. Not hours of dedication playing on a server). Second: The update to 1.13 is taking it's toll, people are losing confidence in the "soon" spamming of the staff. They need to be clear, if it's gonna take a while just say so. I've been told soon in JANUARY. I know it's hard, but be honest to us. Next: the endgame is dull and easy to get to. My first years on Massive were a huge grind, 2012-2014 was just me getting to know the server, gearing up, grinding McMMO, understanding what to do. When I started again after the server reset, I had a faction, god armor, 'lots' of regals within 2 weeks. Suddenly there was nothing else to do but pvp and build, but that sure get's boring. Further: Staff keeps pleasing PvPers and new players aren't bloody PvPers. Every smallest whine of PvPers immediatly got a response, this has really not helped anyone else. The dynmap show caused people to go hunt new players, the no creating faction costs has new players making factions and not understanding the steep skill curve they have to deal with on Massive. All the mechanics and stuff is hard for newer players to deal with. Also people make more AF and "freeze" random assets and buildings without using them, just to sell (SHEARSY). Not a lot of buying builds is happening right now. Ruins used to be overtaken by noobs, giving them a second life. People didn't destroy unclaimed cities for no reason etc. Finally: A bunch of stuff has been changed to increase the server population, but it hasn't been working, maybe having adverse effects. We should first focus on the things already implemented and making it so they're working as intended and remove the ones that are not working instead of turning a blind eye and keep implementing new stuff.
    In summary: Overclaiming destroys the entire appeal of Massive, peaceful factions are not the solution to fix that problem. The outpost idea is just the core and could be implemented with it.
    Radical ideas and suggestions are spawning because of people getting annoyed at the server. It's not updating, no endgame, PvPers and other survivalists clash due to staff only thinking about the PvPers and firs we should focus us on what we have (optimizing it) instead of implementing more and more stuff.


    Plenty of spelling mistakes, bad sentences and shitty explenations can reside in this post. But I'm not in the mood to actually reread it and I don't think it's worth it anymore, no one listens anyways.
    Also when I'm talking about the server, I'm talking about the faction part of it.
     
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  18. Edrom

    Edrom

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    "People still want to participate in factions, but they don't want to participate to the point where their shit gets completely jacked"

    You are implying that the current peaceful factions think the occassional pvp they get on their doorstep is something they enjoy
    They don't
    You are saying that peaceful factions DON'T want an ability to be peaceful, which is absolutely wrong. It is peaceful factions that came up with the idea.

    You are only coming up with convoluted ideas that painstakingly try to "bridge" the several ways of playing on Massive.
    This is naive. Have you not learned from the failures of previous big attempts to create competition and tension (CoK/CoN for example)?
    They tried bridging every type of faction and playstyle and failed.

    The current narrative around peaceful is complete isolation, people don't want to be completely isolated (maybe aside from Asteria) and still do want to try to pvp etc.

    If that were true, we wouldn't have a problem right now. They can do all of that but yet aren't doing it, because what you are saying is simply wrong and totally misguided.
    The current state of factions is IDEAL according to what you are saying, and yet it is NOT improving.
    They CAN pvp, but won't. They don't try to defend their bases, they just stay inside all day. How can you possibly think that they enjoy the pvp.

    Fuck trying to bridge the gap. It is clear to anyone who isn't foolishly blinded by how they want the factions world to be, how it actually is.
    It has a lot of factions that play exactly like towny. They do a myriad of things, like building, focusing on getting money, roleplaying, or just trying to have a fun time with friends. They don't pvp. They do not like pvp. They do not think pvp adds anything to their gameplay experience. They do not make pvp more enjoyable for others. They would LOVE peacefulness.

    And you know what? It's time we finally cater to their needs. They are an integral part of factions. So why not give them the exact experience they want? I say, make peacefulness available for anyone who wants it. And to the the ultra noobs in this thread who cower at the thought of having to do some actual gameplay work on the server -- I don't care how these factions get it. As long as it is accessible to them, whether through appliance or through a low low cost of regals.
    So fuck it. They are towny? Give them the best damn towny experience they can get.

    and now, moving on from catbubbles, for everyone else reading:

    HERE COMES THE GREAT PART FOR PVPERS...


    If you think like a one dimensional drone, you'll go

    > peaceful factions? but uhhh. this is a pvp server! doesnt fit with the identity! what will I do without my once a month occassional attack on a noob town where I get 1 god bow and 4 diamonds! im gonna quit!

    And I'm sorry, but that's just stupid. If you think one step further, you'll go

    > hold on. If peaceful factions can go peaceful, the pvping factions can implement changes that would be GREAT for the pvpers, but would always be shut down because "the peaceful factions dont like it". We can now have more impactful wars, put more on the line, but potentially gain more.
    its like you couldnt eat your steak because the baby can't chew it. NOW THE BABY HAS A PACIFIER!

    It's like you had a racecar, but with someone stepping on the brakes permanently. NOW THAT PERSON IS OUT OF YOUR RACECAR!

    This is why peacefulness is the greatest idea ever.

    THE TOWNY PLAYERS CAN HAVE A PERFECT PEACEFUL EXPERIENCE,
    AND THE PVPERS CAN HAVE SOMETHING THAT RIVALS HCF, AS IF THE FACTIONS WORLD IS 100% PVP ORIENTED

    a perfect towny experience and a perfect pvp experience right next to each other in the same world

    "Isolation"
    They'll be on the exact same world. There will be trading. There will be interaction. Just not pvp wise.
    A peaceful faction might finally have the time and breathing space to grow. When they are ready, they could look at what is happening on the pvp side and go "Alright, we're ready. Time to start pvping too." Without having to be dickslapped and demotivated right from the get-go.


    THIS IS THE IDEAL FACTION SITUATION
    AND IF THIS SITUATION IS IN PLACE, THE POTENTIAL FOR DEVELOPING BOTH THESE GAMEPLAY EXPERIENCES WILL BE TREMENDOUS. You can add sieges, outposts, overclaiming potentially, gradually and in a controlled manner. The potential for new ideas and experimentation is endless.


    I now hope you can see how this situation benefits all.

     
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  19. MyCatBubbles

    MyCatBubbles Massivecrafts Schizo

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    Alright, I'm doing this..

    'You are implying that the current peaceful factions think the occassional pvp they get on their doorstep is something they enjoy
    They don't
    You are saying that peaceful factions DON'T want an ability to be peaceful, which is absolutely wrong. It is peaceful factions that came up with the idea.'

    First off, the PvP community recognizes that elytra raiders who roll up to be assholes are not pvpers. The 'occasional pvp' isn't PvP at all. And I'm not saying peaceful factions don't want an ability to be peaceful, I'm bridging a gap to keep people who want to be able to start conflict and players who don't want to get elytra bombed by people you call 'pvpers'. I've brought up an idea to allow that that could be beneficial.

    'You are implying that the current peaceful factions think the occassional pvp they get on their doorstep is something they enjoy
    They don't. You are saying that peaceful factions DON'T want an ability to be peaceful, which is absolutely wrong. It is peaceful factions that came up with the idea.


    The thing is why my idea could work. Is because players can be peaceful, and people can still go ahead and create conflict with them. The reason CoK/CoN failed were because we never had any safeguard to allow more talent to come in, create actual meaningful factions lore, conflicts, etc. and was simply too much tech work tacked ontop of a stupid point farming system. My idea has very little tech work, and is short, simple and sweet and is incredibly modular. Reinstating taxes for peaceful faction will require a good amount of tech work if you want to automate the process, which should be done as eventually staff will fall off the boat having to manually grab money from peaceful factions.

    'Fuck trying to bridge the gap. It is clear to anyone who isn't foolishly blinded by how they want the factions world to be, how it actually is. It has a lot of factions that play exactly like towny. They do a myriad of things, like building, focusing on getting money, roleplaying, or just trying to have a fun time with friends. They don't pvp. They do not like pvp. They do not think pvp adds anything to their gameplay experience. They do not make pvp more enjoyable for others. They would LOVE peacefulness.'

    With that sentence you're completely shitting on each group of players who do want to work together, who want to work alongside pvpers, rpers etc. As a faction owner full of rpers I could tell you a good amount of them are interested in working alongside me to grow something big in our faction if there were proper changes to disable the randomly raiding asshats that ruin factions currently. And you're under this assumption that I want to enable pvpers to just swoop in and kill whenever, I'm not for that, but I could tell you very much that rpers and people who 'dont want to pvp' would be down to pvp if they've had a long breather and to focus their attention back to their own faction rather than having to defend yourself from asshats who want to constantly raid you (Think a siege system with a long cooldown. Its demoralizing to have yourself be raided constantly and having to be on your guard whenever you go out to build on your faction, it only makes you hate pvp more and more. However let them have no fear of being unexpectingly raided and let them spend their own time on their faction to build it up etc. and I can guarantee you they'll be much more open and acceptive of pvp if it came their way occasionally btw if i really have to say it, your thoughts on 'occasionally' being raided are not occasional if its daily, each second day etc. occasional is like, each month)

    'And you know what? It's time we finally cater to their needs. They are an integral part of factions. So why not give them the exact experience they want? I say, make peacefulness available for anyone who wants it. And to the the ultra noobs in this thread who cower at the thought of having to do some actual gameplay work on the server -- I don't care how these factions get it. As long as it is accessible to them, whether through appliance or through a low low cost of regals. So fuck it. They are towny? Give them the best damn towny experience they can get.'

    This is exactly the issue I have with your proposals. Peaceful factions should only be directed to those who actually want to follow massivecrafts factions credo, that being roleplay, beautiful builds, factions 'culture' and lore, and using those ideas to drive conflict and pvp. Not every noob with a small wooden box and no drive to make anything bigger or better than that should be able to. And if you don't like it? Join peaceful factions that do follow it and make them bigger and better because those are the factions that should truly be benefitting from peaceful as they're doing the most work.

    Anyways I'm continuing on as you're basically hitting a lot of my issues still:

    'HERE COMES THE GREAT PART FOR PVPERS...

    If you think like a one dimensional drone, you'll go
    > peaceful factions? but uhhh. this is a pvp server! doesnt fit with the identity! what will I do without my once a month occassional attack on a noob town where I get 1 god bow and 4 diamonds! im gonna quit!

    And I'm sorry, but that's just stupid. If you think one step further, you'll go

    > hold on. If peaceful factions can go peaceful, the pvping factions can implement changes that would be GREAT for the pvpers, but would always be shut down because "the peaceful factions dont like it". We can now have more impactful wars, put more on the line, but potentially gain more.
    its like you couldnt eat your steak because the baby can't chew it. NOW THE BABY HAS A PACIFIER!'
    It's like you had a racecar, but with someone stepping on the brakes permanently. NOW THAT PERSON IS OUT OF YOUR RACECAR!


    First off, terrible strawman. As far as I'm concerned PvPers have had no issues to a 'monthly occasional attack'. If any pvper wants to correct me go ahead but I'm fairly certain pvpers don't want to raid for lulz for easy god gear and diamonds, they want to create conflict, and we should allow that by implementing some sort of system that could be great for pvpers (yes the system you very terribly tried to argue against with whatever the fuck that racecar thing was)

    '"Isolation"
    They'll be on the exact same world. There will be trading. There will be interaction. Just not pvp wise.
    A peaceful faction might finally have the time and breathing space to grow. When they are ready, they could look at what is happening on the pvp side and go "Alright, we're ready. Time to start pvping too." Without having to be dickslapped and demotivated right from the get-go.'

    Unfortunately, players should still interact pvp wise if they choose to go peaceful. I want to have a decent sized rp orientated faction so peaceful will benefit me, but I want to be able to pvp aswell (Which would be drove through rp reasons) hence as to why I've mentioned a siege system so I could still be raided and raid, I know a lot of factions who'd like to do what I mentioned aswell and implementing a 'pvp or no pvp' system like your peaceful proposal will absolutely kill PvPRP factions like mine to the point where we'll have to choose 'Alright boys, we gonna be full pvp or full rp', thats bullshit, we should be able to do both because that's how massive was in its prime time.
     
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