Archived The Issue Of Overclaiming

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Visarovich

Visarovich

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I know, I know, its a drastic change compared to all the other suggested 'changes' in this section of the forums, but hear me out. Massivecraft consists of two components; roleplay and factions. The roleplay world (Regalia) is for roleplayers, they go there to roleplay with whatever lore the server and other roleplayers have provided for them. A roleplay world for roleplayers. Then there is the factions world. Supposedly a world where factions compete with each other for dominance over the map known as Essalonia. However, what is there to compete over in this world exactly? I can confidently say that I'm not the only one who doesn't really play on this world because its 'dead'. When Regalia gets around 100 players at its height on a daily basis, the factions world generally gets 20-40 players at such times, 60 if we're being generous. This is just one of the many obvious hints showing that the factions world is 'dead'. Why? Simply put, because there is nothing to do, especially for a factions world.

Think about it, what exactly can one do in Essalonia as a factions player? You can grind and gather materials, make money, build something big or PvP. But why would anyone join the factions world for these things? The dubs of diamonds you got, what are they for? That building that took you 3 months to complete is finished, now what? You've killed the players of an enemy faction in PvP and roasted them for the 50th time this month, now what? If people specifically like gathering, they would play a survival world, perhaps with friends on a realm world. If they like building, they could just as well go to a creative server. If they like roleplaying, they might as well go to Regalia. And if they like PvPing, they might as well do so in a PvP- or a HCF server. Basically, there is nothing about Massivecrafts factions world that makes it unique. And if you argue it has TNT disabled, it does, just like any other Towny server out there. If you argue it has traits, let me ask you, are you going to spend all your time flywatering around the map when you join the factions world?

There have been futile attempts to save the factions world in terms of creating goals to achieve to increase activity, PvP, immersion etc. Bounties, CoK & CoN, war declarations are just a few of these examples, all of which have resulted in failure. So I propose a drastic change to turn the factions world into a factions world; add overclaiming. Why exactly? Because it creates an unlimited amount of goals to achieve, since it will give a purpose to PvP, diplomacy, gathering, grinding and moneymaking. It adds a risk/reward system that it currently lacks. Let me explain why:

PvP: By adding overclaiming PvP will obviously be much more important, killing enemies could result in overclaiming other factions or your own faction getting overclaimed if you're reckless. Just imagine all those pointless battles that took place so far that resulted in nothing more than a 'god weapon extra' turning into potential conquests of land, allbeit small in some cases. PvP would be a decisive factor in conquests of other factions and the defense of your own faction. It wouldn't be pointless anymore.

Diplomacy: If overclaiming is implemented, allies will be more than just banter buddies in ally chat, they will be the ones you entrust with supporting your defense when your faction is about to fall. You will need allies to help out if your faction is in trouble. Right now, defense has no benefits and no costs. Its pointless. Diplomacy in general in pointless right now. Right now enemies aren't rivals you want to and can conquer, but rather just people you can kill in their territory and vice versa.

Grinding, gathering & moneymaking: Right now the only reason one could have to gather materials and make money is to get access to expensive materials for a specific building they want to build. If overclaiming is added, storage can be gained and lost, so one will need to gather items to fuel a war-machine to ensure a well-supplied army, something that is rather pointless nowadays.

Only in terms of building will it be a negative change, as overclaiming would mean factions will try keeping more power than land, which will lead to smaller, less impressive builds. But then again, is this a Towny world or a factions world?

Id like to see the factions world thrive again. Diplomacy, wars, rivalries, all aspects that make a factions world a factions world that are currently severely lacking. As of now, I think most people would agree that the factions world is more a Towny world than a factions world. Im interested to see what your opinions on this matter are, so that we can hopefully find a way to make factions great again.

@MonMarty @Doraiaky @Sevak @Herecy @Morbytogan @Winterless @Ieso @jquaile @Violettee @morrc5 @hardname12 @JepTheLegend @MDJTHEHERO @FubeTheMangler @NomiGeorge @iBeSlurping
 
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Those that would be able to deal with this proposal wouldn't be the ones most impacted by it. It would be the small number factions that would ultimately get killed and their work overclaimed, leaving the server and not returning because they have nothing keeping them here.

If massive was originally designed around standard faction gameplay, sure overclaiming would be fine. But the culture of massivecraft is about building something that takes some effort, making it look good, and then having it. Overclaiming would just put those weeks of man hours to waste, all because you died in a 30 second fight. 2 weeks of building lost in 2 minutes? It just wouldn't work out.
 
FireFan96 said:
Those that would be able to deal with this proposal wouldn't be the ones most impacted by it. It would be the small number factions that would ultimately get killed and their work overclaimed, leaving the server and not returning because they have nothing keeping them here.

If massive was originally designed around standard faction gameplay, sure overclaiming would be fine. But the culture of massivecraft is about building something that takes some effort, making it look good, and then having it. Overclaiming would just put those weeks of man hours to waste, all because you died in a 30 second fight. 2 weeks of building lost in 2 minutes? It just wouldn't work out.
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Massivecrafts factions is indeed a towny server as youre implying. But thats what i said at the end, it would mean people would make smaller builds to safeguard them, and those that still want to build big can still do so in creative. Those weeks of man hours are already wasted if you do nothing with the base youve created, all those builds, theyre just as meaningless as those in creative. Overclaiming would mean builds are worth being defended or it would mean people look for other ways to keep them, i.e. Getting allies that can protect you or what not.
 
Visarovich said:
As of now, I think most people would agree that the factions world is more a Towny world than a factions world
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I would just like to point out that this server is the original vision behind the factions plugin, so by that logic anything we do is that of a faction server. Massivecraft has never been like other faction servers. This is the original factions server

I do not think over claiming is a good idea. massive has always been a Haven for people who want to play survival multiplayer but don't want to put effort into a build just for it to get destroyed or taken away from them when they log off.
 
I agree with the implementation of limited overclaiming, to a certain extent. Perhaps, if implemented, overclaiming should not apply to those factions deemed as peaceful to maintain a fair balance. As I have mentioned in previous remarks, any form of destruction in large quantities to the structures and builds of the community, as well as obsidian walls of protection and such would compromise the identity that Survival has established over the years. Regardless, I believe it's apparent the factions system must be reworked in a way that satisfies the factions-oriented playerbase but also finds common ground with peaceful, roleplay Survivalists.

Many of the views held in this suggestion echo some of my own, which I discussed in a lengthy assertion here - https://bit.ly/2lRCnOE.
 
How about factions being able to pay regals, perhaps per month, similar to shops, to be peaceful? This way peaceful factions can get out of the way of the regular factions environment if they so wish, while still playing a role in what goes on in that world

@MonMarty
 
I believe this will completely destroy small factions of new players. Players who cannot defend themselves will lose power and be completely overtaken by these large factions that have tons of members. Who is going to stop Asteria from claiming my entire faction with their extra 400 claim chunks?

Also, has anyone discussed connected claims in regards to this? Maybe I missed something in the original post, but factions would have to be right next door to each other to even use this unless the claim connection requirement was turned off.
 
Yeah im pretty much becoming a full time rper if overclaiming becomes a thing. I want to make a big beautiful city (this pretty much puts the whole 'lol nothing to do' argument in the trash too, theres plenty to do, players are just bad at finding things to do), but why tf should I bother if retards will overclaim it and shit all over it lul

And here thinking my 5 min ramble of a siege idea was bad lol
 
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Riley0628 said:
I believe this will completely destroy small factions of new players. Players who cannot defend themselves will lose power and be completely overtaken by these large factions that have tons of members. Who is going to stop Asteria from claiming my entire faction with their extra 400 claim chunks?

Also, has anyone discussed connected claims in regards to this? Maybe I missed something in the original post, but factions would have to be right next door to each other to even use this unless the claim connection requirement was turned off.
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If we continue using the 'small factions and new players card' factions will always remain a towny server. Look at how many people join the server on a daily basis and how many of them actually stay. Small factions with few people should obviously be weaker than big factions with lots of wealth. That how it it goes. That how its always been. By avoiding to add any risk/reward or competition to the factions world it will remain a towny world, and there are more populated and better towny servers out there than Massive.
 
MyCatBubbles said:
Yeah im pretty much becoming a full time rper if overclaiming becomes a thing. I want to make a big beautiful city (this pretty much puts the whole 'lol nothing to do' argument in the trash too, theres plenty to do, players are just bad at finding things to do), but why tf should I bother if retards will overclaim it and shit all over it lul

And here thinking my 5 min ramble of a siege idea was bad lol
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As I said in the post, if you want to build a big beautiful city, you can possibly opt in to become a peaceful faction, perhaps for a (monthly) fee. Besides, once you've built the city, then what, walking around it becomes boring really quickly. And if that isnt enough, theres always a creative world if you so badly want to build something big. If there is the danger of overclaiming, will you not be more cautious, more serious about enemy threats and more open to recruit new people you dont know and form alliances with other factions that actually have a purpose?
 
Visarovich said:
Besides, once you've built the city, then what, walking around it becomes boring really quickly. And if that isnt enough, theres always a creative world if you so badly want to build something big. If there is the danger of overclaiming, will you not be more cautious, more serious about enemy threats and more open to recruit new people you dont know and form alliances with other factions that actually have a purpose?
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Nope. But what it will do is what it does on EVERY OTHER FACTIONS SERVER which is he won't build the city at all. Either they don't build the city so they don't risk losing it or it getting destroyed. Because why spend all that time just for some pvp ready faction to come kill a couple people and take some chunks from the city. Or if they do build it, just never go outside or do anything so you don't risk losing power. Neither of those solutions would make Massive's faction world better in my opinion.
 
Visarovich said:
As I said in the post, if you want to build a big beautiful city, you can possibly opt in to become a peaceful faction, perhaps for a (monthly) fee. Besides, once you've built the city, then what, walking around it becomes boring really quickly. And if that isnt enough, theres always a creative world if you so badly want to build something big. If there is the danger of overclaiming, will you not be more cautious, more serious about enemy threats and more open to recruit new people you dont know and form alliances with other factions that actually have a purpose?
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The problem is, the current narrative around peaceful is literally just around to cancel out any sort of activity with the broader factions community by removing all sorts of ways to pvp and create conflict (I've brought up an idea that could make both sides happy, I think you know it (if not lmk) and as I have a good knowledge of everyone elses opinion on peaceful, I think mine is the one that bridges the most gaps) I want to participate in the factions community and prove it by building a city, so peaceful as it currently stands is a no no. I'll tell you what I'll do once I build up my city: I'll write fac lore cause that's what I'm interested in, I'll PvP, I'll do my best to give my faction some character, recruit players and teach them skills etc. that won't be done if people could steal all my work (We're a faction with stupidly big goals and alot on our plate). I could find plenty to do outside of stealing other players hard work and dedication, if you can't find anything outside of that that's more of a you issue rather than a massive issue.
 
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Zacatero said:
Nope. But what it will do is what it does on EVERY OTHER FACTIONS SERVER which is he won't build the city at all. Either they don't build the city so they don't risk losing it or it getting destroyed. Because why spend all that time just for some pvp ready faction to come kill a couple people and take some chunks from the city. Or if they do build it, just never go outside or do anything so you don't risk losing power. Neither of those solutions would make Massive's faction world better in my opinion.
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Thats just not true
 
MyCatBubbles said:
The problem is, the current narrative around peaceful is literally just around to cancel out any sort of activity with the broader factions community by removing all sorts of ways to pvp and create conflict (I've brought up an idea that could make both sides happy, I think you know it (if not lmk) and as I have a good knowledge of everyone elses opinion on peaceful, I think mine is the one that bridges the most gaps) I want to participate in the factions community and prove it by building a city, so peaceful as it currently stands is a no no. I'll tell you what I'll do once I build up my city: I'll write fac lore cause that's what I'm interested in, I'll PvP, I'll do my best to give my faction some character, recruit players and teach them skills etc. that won't be done if people could steal all my work (We're a faction with stupidly big goals and alot on our plate). I could find plenty to do outside of stealing other players hard work and dedication, if you can't find anything outside of that that's more of a you issue rather than a massive issue.
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I dont know about any idea of yours on this matter, so feel free to link it or whatever. But when it comes to 'bridging the gap'. I really dont believe thats ever going to happen. The server has to make a decision on whether to be a factions server or a towny server. Tnt will still be disabled ofcourse so building proper bases is still possible. And please give me a list of 'stuff to do' in the longrun that are better without overclaiming. Because with overclaiming, keeping your faction standing will be one on its own. Expanding it will be one, taking over rivals will be one. Or aa i mentioned for those who so badly wish to play a towny style world, maintaining a good production to afford the costs of being peaceful.
 
This would just make pvp even more dead then it is and everyone would be afraid to fight in fear of being overclaimed. So it's a no from me
 
Visarovich said:
Thats just not true
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You honestly believe this won't happen? I'm telling you it will LOL I've seen factions servers that have overclaim.

So let me ask you, Why would anybody build something nice and spend all that time designing it, collecting resources, and building... just to die a couple times and have it all taken or destroyed?
 
Zacatero said:
You honestly believe this won't happen? I'm telling you it will LOL I've seen factions servers that have overclaim.

So let me ask you, Why would anybody build something nice and spend all that time designing it, collecting resources, and building... just to die a couple times and have it all taken or destroyed?
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I too have played on such servers, and its just not like you said. If people know that dying a couple times would mean losing a base do you think they will go about factions the exact same way as before? No, in a different environment people use different means to survive and thrive. Dying a couple times can lead to you losing your base, so what will people do? People will make smaller bases, sure. Only the truly great factions will have truly great bases, as befits their status. Factions will put more effort into recruiting and maintaining new players as they're more important. Is your faction under attack? Get the enemy of your enemy to fight with you to defend your base. Not for a single god weapon worth jack shit like nowadays but to prevent your no.1 rival from getting a chance to massively increase their wealth or power. This would mean shit that people do have a purpose and an effect on the factions environment. Unlike the current situation where literally nothing has any purpose.
 
I just don't see this working on Massive. You can suggest that it might, but because Massive for years and years as advertised itself as a place for people to play factions without worrying about your stuff getting destroyed or overclaimed overnight, I don't see it being something that works.
 
Visarovich said:
Yeah so lets settle with the current situation where there aren't even any PvPers around to begin with
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There are a few, most of them are just inactive because they have nothing to do, and this will definitely not encourage new players to pvp as well, it will make them stray from it.
 
People won't fight if deaths will mean losing something that significant. Server could use a way to properly siege bases to make raids more threatening, but straight up taking them from people permanently is too much.
 
Knyxo said:
People won't fight if deaths will mean losing something that significant. Server could use a way to properly siege bases to make raids more threatening, but straight up taking them from people permanently is too much.
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If deaths dont mean losing something significant thatll also mean that PvP is not worth going for. That is exactly the state the server is in now, PvP is not worthwhile, therefore having proper alliances and rivals arent worthwhile and grinding or mass producing items for war isnt worthwhile. There has to be some sort of penalty for getting constantly raped by another faction, just like how there should be some form of reward for beating another faction, thats the whole factions competition that this server currently lacks.
 
Visarovich said:
I dont know about any idea of yours on this matter, so feel free to link it or whatever. But when it comes to 'bridging the gap'. I really dont believe thats ever going to happen. The server has to make a decision on whether to be a factions server or a towny server. Tnt will still be disabled ofcourse so building proper bases is still possible. And please give me a list of 'stuff to do' in the longrun that are better without overclaiming. Because with overclaiming, keeping your faction standing will be one on its own. Expanding it will be one, taking over rivals will be one. Or aa i mentioned for those who so badly wish to play a towny style world, maintaining a good production to afford the costs of being peaceful.
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-Write fac lore
-Build a beautiful city, not asterian tier lul. As you can recruit unlimited players this should never end too as you'll constantly need to build houses to house the noobies (bonus points if you make massive landmarks that dwarf regalias landmarks and make it an actual living breathing city with a set theme)
-Recruit new players, make them building, pvp, survivalist gods
-Make a large, undefeatable pvp squad that could 'take over' Essalonia (bonus points if it's with recruits and have a solid rp reason instead of 'lul we want resource', give people an idea to rally behind or against)
-With your city, dabble into factions rp (Might need some variant of peaceful for this to work smoothly)
-Become og capitalists, richest on the server (bonus points if your recruits make bank aswell)
-Host events in your faction (Horse races, tourneys etc. you can think of stuff to host)
-Help build up other peoples faction if you think yours is perfect and get them to do everything above ^ This'll never end as there will always be factions being made.

^ Literally thought these ideas up in 2 mins, give me a few hours and I can get pages upon pages of things to do that don't involve 'lol take over destroy and drive people off the server urrrgg' All of these ideas make survival grow and expand and you'll never be short of work. Like I said, if you can't think of anything to do besides overclaiming, thats a you problem, not a massive problem.
 
Visarovich said:
As I said in the post, if you want to build a big beautiful city, you can possibly opt in to become a peaceful faction, perhaps for a (monthly) fee. Besides, once you've built the city, then what, walking around it becomes boring really quickly. And if that isnt enough, theres always a creative world if you so badly want to build something big. If there is the danger of overclaiming, will you not be more cautious, more serious about enemy threats and more open to recruit new people you dont know and form alliances with other factions that actually have a purpose?
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The main draw of the factions server, I believe, is the safety of the builds. This is the whole reason that it is a medieval world. This enables people to actually live above ground and create things that aren't obsidian cubes. I feel that you don't get the main draw of creating a build. It is the same reason people paint, play music, or do anything creative. It is an expression of themselves, a creative outlet, and I believe the biggest thing, a hub for players. Players want to have their own homes, items, and places to feel safe. Players can't live in enemy territory.
 
Visarovich said:
If we continue using the 'small factions and new players card' factions will always remain a towny server. Look at how many people join the server on a daily basis and how many of them actually stay. Small factions with few people should obviously be weaker than big factions with lots of wealth. That how it it goes. That how its always been. By avoiding to add any risk/reward or competition to the factions world it will remain a towny world, and there are more populated and better towny servers out there than Massive.
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And I believe that small factions are a vital part to the server. They are full of players who do not know what they are doing, of course, but conflicts arise (most of the time) because of the raids on small factions by large factions. If large factions simply own everything, conflict is almost pointless, I believe.
 
Oh hell no.

I'll be polite here and avoid saying this idea is terrible, but quite frankly I have difficulty envisioning a world where this would be beneficial to the server. The server needs new blood, and that new blood comes from new players. Speaking as a former new player who was pwned by big bad pvpers for quite some time before I got better, I can tell you having your entire faction destroyed because some asshat who happens to have joined a month earlier than them and has god gear is a pretty solid "okay, time to leave the server" experience. Please don't tell me that only wimps quit over that shit - they have no stake in the server, and no experience but a negative one; from where I stand, it's a totally rational response.

Adding "also I can literally steal your base" into the equation is, with all due respect, lunacy. Factions are essentially based around being able to build bases your enemy cannot destroy or infiltrate, the ability to create safe havens. This, to me, would be akin to adding in tnt and letting people blow up enemy bases, like it is on many other Factions servers, something which is simply not acceptable here. If a player has the ability to steal land from their opponents, simply for getting a kill, possibly one based on luck rather than skill, Massivecraft, in my opinion, is simply no longer worth playing in the Factions world. This seems wholly antithetical to the spirit of factions, and I strongly oppose your suggestion. Good day
 
The most retarded idea i could ever think of massive will never AND should never consider an overclaiming idea, survival would flood empty and stop to exist, like come the fuck on lmfao
 
I respectfully disagree with a lot of these points. Building in survival is a different experience than in creative, and we also have a creative server. Gathering materials and darkrooming is better here than in a survival world, because those materials and that money can be used, bragged about, lent to others! And I like it ;w; It's calming, refreshing, and fun to see the stark contrast in chat while others are fighting and I'm supporting my allies. I feel important, I feel like we're all one great city against the other warriors. There's a place for every kind in a city like this, you need farmers and warriors and builders and suppliers and strategists and funding! There are many times more players and friends to be had here than you could fit in a (not free) realm. There are a good chunk of factions players who are very much NOT there to pvp. If we implemented this, there would be no point for them to play anymore. They don't have gear, or they're on an old setup that can't possibly hope to see pvp, or they're just bad at pvp, or they don't enjoy it in the least, and so on. Homes that were painstakingly built and items of meaning could be easily taken over, mercilessly so in the case of some pvpers. That wouldn't be thrilling, it'd be rage-quit inducing. New factions wouldn't even have a chance, even less so than they have now.
 
To 90% of you casuals saying "muh stuff will be taken by pvpers"

YOU CAN GO PEACEFUL.

IF YOU ARE NOT UP FOR THE CHALLENGE, YOU CAN OPT IN FOR PEACEFULNESS.

This is for bold factions that are willing to put things on stake so their fights have actual meaning.

Half of these replies can be safely dismissed because they did not factor in the potential for peacefulness.
 
Edrom said:
IF YOU ARE NOT UP FOR THE CHALLENGE, YOU CAN OPT IN FOR PEACEFULNESS.
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You need to pay. Nobody's gonna give up their material savings for something that they don't want to exist in the first place while they watch everyone around them burn. It's not sustainable and they'll just leave.
 
I don't think that a large change should be included as the core of another large change. Having factions pay to be peaceful (or any implementation of the peaceful factions to the masses) is a separate change that would need to be implemented and balanced.
 
However, this could be an interesting idea if this was implemented in an entirely separate world. A PvP overclaiming world. The only problem with this alternative is that we don't have enough PvPers to get it up and running very soon after its release, so we'd need more new players to do it.

Edit: the factions disc seems to be discussing something similar; a KOTH style thing once a week(?) to battle for an overclaimable outpost, go check it
 
Emkaloua said:
However, this could be an interesting idea if this was implemented in an entirely separate world. A PvP overclaiming world
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One thing that Id hope that the failure of Crisis of Kings and Eotor has taught us is that if it's something that isn't forced you won't get a lot of people to participate. So for it to work at all it would have to be all or nothing. That being said, I truly believe that people will quit. or they won't actually involve themselves in PvP, they'll actually be outside less.

As I said before. I do not think this will work on massive in any capacity. Sure you can say that you can pay for peaceful, but if you are the ones that need peaceful, you are already being raided into the ground and out of money. So that idea isn't feasible
 
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