The Concept Of Being Raided

[TheBatman1016]

While you have some valid points, not everyone wants to lose all of their items that took hard-earned regals to get in a fight that they stand no chance in. But, if you can hide indoors, why would you surrender? You're safe inside. I know that it's very unrealistic, but, if you want realistic combat, go get some friends, armor, and weapons, then stab each other for fun (that was sarcasm. Don't actually do it). You're playing a video game. Do you expect everything to be realistic?

Now, what if some people want to RP, but not in the Regalian settings, or with the same rules and lore? What if the RPers want to build their own kingdom in Minecraft and not have it be griefed to Hell? If having a faction was restricted to PvPers, then there would be far fewer people on the server as some just want to build up a city and RP there. You can't claim land if you don't have a faction. Builders and RPers need factions just as much as PvPers do.

Hanging their flag up, that seems fair enough. But, still, it's humiliating, as is a public surrender.

I understand that you don't mean that only PvPers get factions, but not everyone has regals to surrender with. Joining an empire can create enemies with the empire's enemies. That means more raiding, more loss of items. While the empire might be willing to help you in this, perhaps they won't.

Saying that, "And if you really can't fight, then just surrender," and actually meaning it, would basically grant PvPers the ability to go to any peaceful building or RP-based faction and just get some free cash or items whenever they want.

TL;DR: Basically, some people build their faction for the purpose of claiming their buildings so they cannot be griefed or to have a safe place to RP but with different rules than Regalia has. Should they be forced to pay for their lack of interest in PvP?

If anyone is so seriously displeased with the state of PvP at MassiveCraft and the lack of different people to PvP with, then why don't you bring some of your friends onto the server to PvP with you? Or maybe talk more with the staff about how you think they can improve PvP. You can't just draft people into the world of PvP.

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You make some really good points here. You mention that a public surrender/flag hanging would be humiliating to the defending faction, which to a degree, it is. But what thats part of what it is. Its an option to surrender that everyone and everyone can do, and if you don't PvP, I don't see how embarrassing it could be to be beaten by a PvP faction. In your closing statement you also recommend that we bring our friends onto the server to PvP with us. First off, PvP is very tough to get into, and takes a lot of dedication of grinding/paying for premium/ etc. So it is hard to get someone new to the server to become a PvPer. Second, personally, a lot of my friends did play on massive actively. However, in recent months about 90% of them have left. The situation is abysmal in the PvP community right now.

Anyways, I guess PvP'rs are just a little upset that once they have beaten a faction, they can just hide indoors when they do not feel like fighting anymore, and there is no incentive to surrender. That is what we are trying to fix. Thank you.

 

[The Genie]

You make some really good points here. You mention that a public surrender/flag hanging would be humiliating to the defending faction, which to a degree, it is. But what thats part of what it is. Its an option to surrender that everyone and everyone can do, and if you don't PvP, I don't see how embarrassing it could be to be beaten by a PvP faction. In your closing statement you also recommend that we bring our friends onto the server to PvP with us. First off, PvP is very tough to get into, and takes a lot of dedication of grinding/paying for premium/ etc. So it is hard to get someone new to the server to become a PvPer. Second, personally, a lot of my friends did play on massive actively. However, in recent months about 90% of them have left. The situation is abysmal in the PvP community right now.

Anyways, I guess PvP'rs are just a little upset that once they have beaten a faction, they can just hide indoors when they do not feel like fighting anymore, and there is no incentive to surrender. That is what we are trying to fix. Thank you.

Click to shrink...

Ah, true. Like, it takes hours and hours to even get the pathetic mcmmo stats of combat skills at 500. I suppose that it is extremely irritating for PvPers who have nothing else to do on the server at the moment, no PvP factions to raid, so they resort to smaller factions. Honestly, I don't really see the point of waiting indoors, because it seems like a waste of time to me. Like, if you're a small faction, chances are a surrender won't cost any more than 100r.

Honestly, I can't really think of any solution to that issue. Maybe that's because I'm uncreative, or just feeling lazy. I think a decent amount of the fear of PvP that some factions have is due to a lot of the raiders having ridiculously high mcmmo stats and amazing items, and, if by some miracle they DO get the raider low, if they're premium (as many big PvPers are), they can just wait for Pacifist to be restored by running in circles and not lose any items and just come back to fight more.

 

[Sephite]

Maybe there is simply no solution to this problem and we have already the best way of dealing with it.

Why?

Well, we try to find fair solutions of raiding a faction. What is fair? For PVPers it seems to be a fight or a surrender, for RPers fair would be the choice not to fight at all, because they don't force PVPers to RP either.

Lets sum it up again: There are PVPers, who put a lot of time into their gear, skills and McMMO stats, who can simply overrun RPer who put most of time and effort in RP and are armed with maybe just spirit and god armour. If the PVPer attacks now for the first time it's mostly a surprise attack and that gets the PVPers maybe some god gear or building materials. The RPer has now two choices if they don't want to give in: Hide or fight. In most cases it's the first one, simply because they just don't have the skill, the gear (anymore, due to the surprise attack), the stats, the weapons. In my eyes the RPer takes the battle just to another level by sitting it out. It's not really fun to be restricted to some areas, not to be able to gather items without the fear being slaughtered (I assume here no underground bases) - so it gets a mental fight. Who will give up first?
If the PVPer gets bored the RPer wins this fight, but he can still never be sure when the next attack follows. Thus some RPers rather surrender (because they want to harvest their crops or build in peace). So I believe if you simply attack often enough surprisingly, you can break their spirit and they surrender. In other words: you have already the power to force them to surrender.
Maybe it's just a bit harder and more frustrating to raid RPers then PVPers after all, but because PVPers see them as easy target they start complaining in the forums that they don't get their money so easily of players who actually can't/won't fight with weapons.

If you take now away the possibility of sitting it out, most RPers will leave the server, because it will be PVPers ruling the survival world (quite fair, isn't it?). So what will be the result? As already said in this thread: There will be just PVPers left to fight against. Again the same people who are fighting against each other already, but with less RPers in the world, taking away a huge part of the server. So why having a nice medieval town, why having lore items? How about just underground obsidian bases... oh wait, that doesn't sound like Massivecraft anymore but like any other faction server.

So maybe - just maybe - it's ok how it is. Maybe it's good that RPers can sit it out and are not forced to surrender, because this contributes to the balance of RP and PVP - and PVPers gaining only from suprise attacks if a RP faction is involved.

But let's not give up yet, because the PVPers seem to be very upset about all this:

How would you get someone who doesn't care about fighting to either defend themselves or surrender in a fair way? How do you get anyone to do anything? You need to give them a reason, an incentive. What could that be? Normally surrendering factions are LOSING something and not gaining. That's the whole point of the story after all. So how do you get someone to lose something willingly?

One approach could be that if the losing faction (Faction A) is forced to surrender somehow, how about the winning faction (Faction B) being forced to defend them for ___ weeks (maybe 4 weeks/30 days - the time frame the truce after a raid at the moment?) against any other raiding faction coming along after them, even if that raiding faction is an ally of faction B?
Faction B would have to ally faction A (not just truce) and if they fail (or don't want) to defend them, they could have to pay back the tribute to faction A.
For RPers this could maybe be woven into the story of the faction (being overtaken and ruled by a stronger enemy) and it would also mean that they gain someone who fights for them if they surrender, which would be particularly good for the new and small factions.
It could also result to the RPers taking up the weapons more often, because the more they surrender, the more fighters they will have on their side, resulting again in bigger battles.
Small and new PVP factions, who are simply not strong enough to face the stronger PVP faction, could maybe even learn from their new allies and
for the winning PVPers this could mean more fights, because they would have to fight in certain circumstances even their allies (that doesn't mean that they need to stay enemies after that) and there would be an actual fight if the RP faction gets defended by other factions (even the smallest and youngest ones).
It could also result in smaller PVP factions not overrunning RP factions if said RP factions have lots of enemies (cause if the RPers surrender, the PVP faction would be forced to fight against the other enemies of that faction)
This idea might also stir up existing alliances, bringing a new wind into the PVP world?

I don't know how this would be monitored, how much/if staff would be needed and if there is any abuse possible, but let me know what you think (please without being rude :3)

(I'm neither a fighter, nor a role player yet, so I tried to approach this problem as fair as possible from both sides and I was thinking what would make ME surrender)

 

[MokeDuck]

i love it!!! there is a very simple way to do that! simply announce that you will stop hiding only if they will defend you.
yay, thanks

 

[VillainousStache]

Many PvPers (Not all...) are likely wanting MassiveCraft to become just like All the other faction servers. A lot of PvPers might think roleplay has no place in a factions server. I myself have visited other factions servers, and the only things people build are cannons and huge cobble boxes with water on it. The Roleplay aspect is what makes MassiveCraft unique. People have the right to build beautiful structures and cities in factions worlds in survival mode, showing off their skills. In other factions servers, people would just blow those up and take their stuff. Asking RPers to fight you instead of fighting the people who can fight is like forcing a desk worker to create a Quantum Computer. It's just not going to work. People in Massivecraft have the right to choose how they want to play. Either become a dangerous PvPer being able to Solo entire factions or become a magnificent builder capable of building beautiful cites. A master survivalist or a nobleman/noblewoman owning their own county and rolelplaying. But then there is the other question:Why not surrender? Because people simply don't want to because they know it's only a temporary solution. Let's say there is a moderately rich faction with about 15 members. T hey're raided, and they want to surrender, thus paying max tribute. Month passes, that PvP faction might not be ethical and just begin raiding that faction again. It's like beating up someone and saying,"Pay me $50 and I won't beat you up for a month." It just doesn't make sense, because they'll just come back and take your money constantly.

I understand that it gets boring raiding just PvP factions. But you can't expect a desk worker to be able to understand complex physics just because you're bored of your physicist buddies. Sure, you can raid RP factions, but don't expect them to come out and fight you. You may get bored, but that's just how life works. Not everyone is like you. You may want to go in and kill them all, but still, they don't share your interests. And I know, "It's not realistic, we need to be able to open doors and break blocks" But that is the main reason I play massivecraft. People can't come into my house and destroy it or steal all my things I worked hard for. I've watched a few YouTube videos, one containing some officials on the server (I'm not disclosing who) and a server reviewer. One of them said something along the line of this "People want to make their beautiful cities, let them. People shouldn't be able to destroy that just because they had a bad day." The fact that MassiveCraft PvP is different from all the other factions servers is what makes MassiveCraft different. In the other factions servers, only those who got on in the beginning of the server can become great and powerful, and they destroy the weak. In MassiveCraft, people who Logged on 5 Months ago Can become great and powerful. I understand that MassiveCraft isn't only a RP server. But it also isn't a only PvP server. If you want MassiveCraft to become just another Factions server, just think of how different MassiveCraft is. And think of how the difference makes it better for the majority.

 

[Alj23]

Many PvPers (Not all...) are likely wanting MassiveCraft to become just like All the other faction servers. A lot of PvPers might think roleplay has no place in a factions server. I myself have visited other factions servers, and the only things people build are cannons and huge cobble boxes with water on it. The Roleplay aspect is what makes MassiveCraft unique. People have the right to build beautiful structures and cities in factions worlds in survival mode, showing off their skills. In other factions servers, people would just blow those up and take their stuff. Asking RPers to fight you instead of fighting the people who can fight is like forcing a desk worker to create a Quantum Computer. It's just not going to work. People in Massivecraft have the right to choose how they want to play. Either become a dangerous PvPer being able to Solo entire factions or become a magnificent builder capable of building beautiful cites. A master survivalist or a nobleman/noblewoman owning their own county and rolelplaying. But then there is the other question:Why not surrender? Because people simply don't want to because they know it's only a temporary solution. Let's say there is a moderately rich faction with about 15 members. T hey're raided, and they want to surrender, thus paying max tribute. Month passes, that PvP faction might not be ethical and just begin raiding that faction again. It's like beating up someone and saying,"Pay me $50 and I won't beat you up for a month." It just doesn't make sense, because they'll just come back and take your money constantly.

I understand that it gets boring raiding just PvP factions. But you can't expect a desk worker to be able to understand complex physics just because you're bored of your physicist buddies. Sure, you can raid RP factions, but don't expect them to come out and fight you. You may get bored, but that's just how life works. Not everyone is like you. You may want to go in and kill them all, but still, they don't share your interests. And I know, "It's not realistic, we need to be able to open doors and break blocks" But that is the main reason I play massivecraft. People can't come into my house and destroy it or steal all my things I worked hard for. I've watched a few YouTube videos, one containing some officials on the server (I'm not disclosing who) and a server reviewer. One of them said something along the line of this "People want to make their beautiful cities, let them. People shouldn't be able to destroy that just because they had a bad day." The fact that MassiveCraft PvP is different from all the other factions servers is what makes MassiveCraft different. In the other factions servers, only those who got on in the beginning of the server can become great and powerful, and they destroy the weak. In MassiveCraft, people who Logged on 5 Months ago Can become great and powerful. I understand that MassiveCraft isn't only a RP server. But it also isn't a only PvP server. If you want MassiveCraft to become just another Factions server, just think of how different MassiveCraft is. And think of how the difference makes it better for the majority.

Click to shrink...

While this was a slight necro, a feel you need a response to some of the very incorrect statements you have made in this comment.

PVPers do not want to make MassiveCraft like every other factions server. Quite the opposite. We enjoy our nice bases for a variety of reasons just as much as the next PVPer or Role-player. While yes, being able to blow your way into someone's base would solve the problem, it would create more problems then it's worth. So no, PVPers do not want to make MassiveCraft like every other PVP server out there. Trust me, PVPers do not want people to be able to blow holes into bases, because the same tactic might just be used against them.

As for people being allowed to play the game how they like it, I understand this. It's unfortunate though that RPers playing the game how they like to negatively impacts the PVP experience sometimes, and vice versa. Yes, being raided when you can't fight back isn't fun. But gearing up for raids and going to factions just to be met with silence and disregard when you can see five people inside five different houses is also not fun.

I've used this comparison before. Take note that in both situations, what is happening is not a breaking of the rules, just a large slap in the face that decreases enjoyment for one party: How would you feel if every single person you attempted to RP with completely ignored you, sometimes told you to go away, or just outright insulted you before telling you to go away? The same thing is happening to PVPers. We show up somewhere, ready to fight, and are either completely ignored, or are insulted for being "war mongering people who have nothing better to do that ruin other people's fun" and then are told to go away.

Neither side broke any rules, just their actions led to a decrease in enjoyment for one party involved.

 

[The Genie]

Although, while I earlier said that having to hang the winning faction's banner in your base is humiliating, you know what's even worse? Having to find RPers or builders that have virtually no PvP stats to get kills and feel good about yourself.

(again, not all PvPers are like this, just a few!)

 

[Sephite]

Why exactly do we go on about how this is a problem, instead of discussing the possible solution I posted?

 

[Jackmo_Jones]

I fear there is no solution at this point RP has much too strong a hold on this server and people looking in from the outside see this quite clearly. I mean just glancing at the forums 95% of what is discussed is RP. No player who is searching for a new PvP server to play on is gonna look at this favorably and since pvpers are such a small minority it seems (whether true or not) that very little effort goes into our side of the community and really any effort on that part just pisses off the vast majority (RPers) who then for some odd reason feel victimised.

I don't see both sides coexisting and this issue is the sole reason for my friends and my own inactivity. Just sick of waiting for things to get better.

 

[BenRekt]

I fear there is no solution at this point RP has much too strong a hold on this server and people looking in from the outside see this quite clearly. I mean just glancing at the forums 95% of what is discussed is RP. No player who is searching for a new PvP server to play on is gonna look at this favorably and since pvpers are such a small minority it seems (whether true or not) that very little effort goes into our side of the community and really any effort on that part just pisses off the vast majority (RPers) who then for some odd reason feel victimised.

I don't see both sides coexisting and this issue is the sole reason for my friends and my own inactivity. Just sick of waiting for things to get better.

Click to shrink...

Sick of waiting for things to be better as well, haven't really seriously played in Massive in about 2 months.

It makes me sad to think about how amazing PvP was on this server just only last year. Well, not much else to say but that it was good while it lasted.

 

[Sephite]

I fear there is no solution at this point RP has much too strong a hold on this server and people looking in from the outside see this quite clearly. I mean just glancing at the forums 95% of what is discussed is RP. No player who is searching for a new PvP server to play on is gonna look at this favorably and since pvpers are such a small minority it seems (whether true or not) that very little effort goes into our side of the community and really any effort on that part just pisses off the vast majority (RPers) who then for some odd reason feel victimised.

Click to shrink...

Well I actually try to make things better but most PVPers seem to ignore my post above and don't even comment on it. So I guess the problem about no discussions about PvP lies in the fact that PVPers are simply not the wordy type...
I also don't quite get how being slaughtered and not being able to do something about it is an odd reason to feel victimised. As described above it's like having a bully at school that leaves you alone for the day once you gave him your lunch money.
The situation would look much different though if said bully helps you against other bullies for a week after you gave him your lunch money:

One approach could be that if the losing faction (Faction A) is forced to surrender, how about the winning faction (Faction B) being forced to defend them for ___ weeks (maybe 4 weeks/30 days - the time frame the truce after a raid at the moment?) against any other raiding faction coming along after them, even if that raiding faction is an ally of faction B?
Faction B would have to ally faction A (not just truce) and if they fail (or don't want) to defend them, they could have to pay back the tribute to faction A.

Click to shrink...

Spoiler: possible results

• For RPers this could maybe be woven into the story of the faction (being overtaken and ruled by a stronger enemy) and it would also mean that they gain someone who fights for them if they surrender, which would be particularly good for the new and small factions.
• It could also result to the RPers taking up the weapons more often, because the more they surrender, the more fighters they will have on their side, resulting again in bigger battles, maybe animating them to try it themselves if they have the opportunity to fight along with well known PVPers
• Small and new PVP factions, who are simply not strong enough to face the stronger PVP faction, could maybe even learn from their new allies and
• for the winning PVPers this could mean more fights, because they would have to fight in certain circumstances even their allies (that doesn't mean that they need to stay enemies after that) and there would be an actual fight if the RP faction gets defended by other factions (even the smallest and youngest ones).
• It could also result in smaller PVP factions not overrunning RP factions if said RP factions have lots of enemies (cause if the RPers surrender, the PVP faction would be forced to fight against the other enemies of that faction)
• This idea might also stir up existing alliances completely, bringing a new wind into the PVP world?

I don't see both sides coexisting and this issue is the sole reason for my friends and my own inactivity. Just sick of waiting for things to get better.

Click to shrink...

Would the above suggestion animate you to come back?

 

[FighterBoi]

Just a penny of my thoughts.

PvP community:
-feels that rp community is being harsh on them.
-feels that theres a decrease of fighters due to various reasons (some leaving due to vampires being too op , some because they feel that pvp in massivecraft isnt hardcore enough )

Rp community:
-Feels that pvp community is forcing them into pvp

Which is basically whats happening and its like racism , rp being a certain race and pvp being a certain race . It is very difficult to resolve this issue , even seperating the worlds wont be a good way to resolve this because there would be a great decrease in this community thing like u know what I mean , the community is seperated and it aint good

 

[Jackmo_Jones]

Would the above suggestion animate you to come back?

Click to shrink...

No, it really wouldn't because I don't care about loot (I'm already rich IG) and I don't really even care about winning the war or fight I'm involved in. I just wanna fight something and I want that something to fight back.

I'm not big into steamrolling RP facs it's pretty boring and not really satisfying at all. I want more PvPers on the server that will actually raid my fac or allow me to raid them. Just to put in perspective how bad things have gotten on this server just a year ago when I was still with Atheria we would get raided almost every day and we had about 5 large PvP factions gunning for us at any given time. Now fast forward to the creation of my fac and present day. My fac BlackFlag I kid you not has been raided MAYBE 8 times in the 5 or so months it has been a faction and at one point we had around 30 people with at least 5 on at any given time. My fac is also designed to encourage people to raid. My walls are short and easily pearlable, I built on decently flat land so there's room to fight and strafe, and I even built by water so the Flywater noobs can play it safe. Even with all that still nobody came to raid.

It saddens me thinking back to my Atheria days. Every time I logged on I would hope to see "Raid!!!" instantly pop in faction chat and more often then not that hope would be granted. Now I barely even see people in ally chat getting raided let alone my own fac.

 

[Sephite]

No, it really wouldn't because I don't care about loot (I'm already rich IG) and I don't really even care about winning the war or fight I'm involved in. I just wanna fight something and I want that something to fight back.

I'm not big into steamrolling RP facs it's pretty boring and not really satisfying at all. I want more PvPers on the server that will actually raid my fac or allow me to raid them. Just to put in perspective how bad things have gotten on this server just a year ago when I was still with Atheria we would get raided almost every day and we had about 5 large PvP factions gunning for us at any given time. Now fast forward to the creation of my fac and present day. My fac BlackFlag I kid you not has been raided MAYBE 8 times in the 5 or so months it has been a faction and at one point we had around 30 people with at least 5 on at any given time. My fac is also designed to encourage people to raid. My walls are short and easily pearlable, I built on decently flat land so there's room to fight and strafe, and I even built by water so the Flywater noobs can play it safe. Even with all that still nobody came to raid.

It saddens me thinking back to my Atheria days. Every time I logged on I would hope to see "Raid!!!" instantly pop in faction chat and more often then not that hope would be granted. Now I barely even see people in ally chat getting raided let alone my own fac.

Click to shrink...

Aye, so do I get it right, that the problem isn't RPers not coming out and fighting, but the lack of PVPers alltogehter, because with more PVPers there would be no need to go after the RPers?

And PVPers are not staying on this server... why? Because there isn't anyone to fight against? And that's again because newbies get told that they suck at PVP? Or because of the rules and that certain things are not allowed on Massivecraft but would be allowed on an off-the-rack PVP server? Vampires that are too OP and kill the fun of PVP? Or even all of that?

By the way: I wasn't around last year, but I would like to know how the system worked around PVP back then. I experienced the war declarations, but what was before that?

 

[BenRekt]

Aye, so do I get it right, that the problem isn't RPers not coming out and fighting, but the lack of PVPers alltogehter, because with more PVPers there would be no need to go after the RPers?

And PVPers are not staying on this server... why? Because there isn't anyone to fight against? And that's again because newbies get told that they suck at PVP? Or because of the rules and that certain things are not allowed on Massivecraft but would be allowed on an off-the-rack PVP server? Vampires that are too OP and kill the fun of PVP? Or even all of that?

By the way: I wasn't around last year, but I would like to know how the system worked around PVP back then. I experienced the war declarations, but what was before that?

Click to shrink...

Back then there was the idea that only the weakest of the weak factions would not go out to fight people raiding them, which led to a lot more personal, intense wars. Hell, I would go out naked and try to kill enemies outside.

Over time it became more acceptable to hide inside, and staff sort of encouraged this by making it harder to raid people (raid rules, war decs, etc.). Also, the lag continued to get worse and worse up to the point that many people gave up on the server because it was mess.

The most recent major loss of players was due to the insanely ridiculous trait bugs which were really only recently fixed and balanced, but then having vampires added upset the whole balance again (this is also one of the reasons people want races back: they were pretty well balanced).