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Jomdorr

Jomdorr

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I don't personally make many jokes these days, but when I do I like to pull a few crackers, normally I keep them in faction chat rather than general. But of late I'm seeing some heavy over exaggeration of mutes for jokes in general. I don't like this. Neither do 90% of all players on massive. If you look at your complaints section nearly every third thread is bbb muting somone for in my eye what was a reasonably funny joke. Like seriously some of them are good clean jokes borderline "trolling" and relatively funny. So my suggestion would be to change the mutable definitions of trollolololololing

If said troll joke was designed to maliciously make fun of and degrade said player then mute
If said troll was specifically designed to throw off or make a fool of said gullible player then mute
If its just plain funny then laugh (it seems like none of your staff have a sense of humour a rarely see any of them lol in general)

The most important part right here... Staff talk to the receiving end of the joke and ask "are you offended" then mute said player (this in my eyes is justified reasoning for an hour ban ill sit there and take it if I offended someone rather than staff judging my funnies as pure troll), cause by Jove they might have laughed at that joke to, and all the staff have done has put down a reasonably funny player made them feel bad when trying to make others feel good, this just makes our staff seem plain evil, which will drive away players.

Hopefully my suggestion will taken into account and not disregarded on the first look, there are many of us who think this needs to be adjusted ever so slightly, cause I don't want to chat in general anymore and massive craft is beginning to become less social and if I'm totally honest I don't enjoy not being able to joke without being insta muted. I now spend most of my time in places that will appreciate my humour.
 

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Jomdorr said:
I don't like this. Neither do 90% of all players on massive.
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Where did you get this statistic?

Righty-ho, time to reply to the thread itself <3

I'll be referring to this for the majority of this reply: http://www.massivecraft.com/massivecraft-chat-rule-change

As you probably know, the state of General before ^Rule change was implemented was dire and terrible. People were being banned/muted/jailed everyday for 'Trolling' or #'s in general. It became a literal attack on staff in many ways. The second someone #'s or trolls, a chain reaction starts in the chat and our poor game staff are left spamming the /mute /jail and /ban command left right and center to punish people for inciting spam and yadayadayada. People became frustrated and it became incredibly strenuous in the staff.

We also recognize that with the player number growth, moderating General and Premium becomes more unfeasible. It is already becoming hard to control the conversation topic with a couple of staff members towards over 100 players, and this will only become harder.
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It's incredibly difficult to moderator minor chat misuses, and as such, the rules were changed to acknowledge and work towards this.

General and Premium will now only be moderated for offensive content, described as racist, discriminatory, sexist, vulgar, or otherwise unwanted language.
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The thing with trolling, is that it can easily offend anyone. In the real world, just the same as on the internet, you must censor your words and be careful with your language. I know you stated that we could literally ask the person it's directed at to see whether or not they are offended, but that's a lot harder than you envision. Imagine this: After we grow, we could easily have about 500+ players online. Someone makes, what we staff believe to be, an offensive comment without saying the name of a player. We staff cannot speak to every single player and ask whether that comment offended them, can we?

Trolling, as defined by UrbanDictionary
(Oxford dictionary says it's something to do with fishing [I dont even] and isn't correctly defined for the internet)
Being a *Insert totally fluffy comment* on the internet because you can. Typically unleashing one or more cynical or sarcastic remarks on an innocent by-stander, because it's the internet and, hey, you can.
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Any joke, trolling or not can be taken offensively, and it's down the staff to recognise whether or not it is.

I understand that jokes are said and people do laugh. Heck, I laugh at a ton of the jokes in General and I even contribute to a ton of them also. There is a thin line which us staff must moderate still, and due to our relinquished moderation of minor chat rulebreaks, we sternly punish those which are due punishment.
 
I commend your ability to poll 2800 players and gather an accurate response figure. You should work for polling agencies.
 
Kirby12352 said:
I wish you people who are complaining about this would actually think before you make a stupid complaint because you got muted for an hour. I would say more, but Tom basically covered everything.
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I have not been muted I just suggested a change
 
Tom1804 said:
Where did you get this statistic?

Righty-ho, time to reply to the thread itself <3

I'll be referring to this for the majority of this reply: http://www.massivecraft.com/massivecraft-chat-rule-change

As you probably know, the state of General before ^Rule change was implemented was dire and terrible. People were being banned/muted/jailed everyday for 'Trolling' or #'s in general. It became a literal attack on staff in many ways. The second someone #'s or trolls, a chain reaction starts in the chat and our poor game staff are left spamming the /mute /jail and /ban command left right and center to punish people for inciting spam and yadayadayada. People became frustrated and it became incredibly strenuous in the staff.


It's incredibly difficult to moderator minor chat misuses, and as such, the rules were changed to acknowledge and work towards this.


The thing with trolling, is that it can easily offend anyone. In the real world, just the same as on the internet, you must censor your words and be careful with your language. I know you stated that we could literally ask the person it's directed at to see whether or not they are offended, but that's a lot harder than you envision. Imagine this: After we grow, we could easily have about 500+ players online. Someone makes, what we staff believe to be, an offensive comment without saying the name of a player. We staff cannot speak to every single player and ask whether that comment offended them, can we?

Trolling, as defined by UrbanDictionary
(Oxford dictionary says it's something to do with fishing [I dont even] and isn't correctly defined for the internet)


Any joke, trolling or not can be taken offensively, and it's down the staff to recognise whether or not it is.

I understand that jokes are said and people do laugh. Heck, I laugh at a ton of the jokes in General and I even contribute to a ton of them also. There is a thin line which us staff must moderate still, and due to our relinquished moderation of minor chat rulebreaks, we sternly punish those which are due punishment.
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I simply disagree, how many can you honestly say you have muted in 100% knowledge that the other side were offended, there are still people on this server that laugh along but players still get muted, this is why I want it to change, the system needs a slight tweak, I disagree with the over extreme mutes given
 
Complaining about a mute is rather silly, its usually no longer than an hour.... an hour.. that is not that long, any longer and the person either did something they were definitely not suppose to be doing.
 
MonMarty said:
I commend your ability to poll 2800 players and gather an accurate response figure. You should work for polling agencies.
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Of the ten people i regularly speak to only one has anything nice to say about the servers overkill on mutes, you can't get around the fact that your complaints system shows majority about the over kill on mutes.
 
TazeHD said:
Complaining about a mute is rather silly, its usually no longer than an hour.... an hour.. that is not that long, any longer and the person either did something they were definitely not suppose to be doing.
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An hour for a joke is over kill that's the entire piont of this thread
 
Jomdorr

The fact that you post a troll face picture along with your "complaint" just makes me not even bother to take it seriously. So here, let me draw you a pony!

TWFds72.png
 
To you people who rated me a Read More: I didn't literally mean YOU yourself got muted, but most of the people who complain about this are people who got muted. If I still deserve a read more, by all means leave it, but otherwise, take it off please. Jomdorr Joshy54100
 
As staff members slowly came to the conclusion that public chats like General were becoming impossible to moderate, we also figured out that players weren't learning from 5 to even 30 minute slaps on the wrist.

We don't like giving punishment, nor do you like receiving punishment. Yet this rule was implemented because players that could be just like you and your friends had said things that aren't allowed, and we had muted you only for short periods of time. That being said, you still didn't listen, and it seemed unfair that people were getting away with multiple rule-breaking comments because of the fact that they could sit through a short mute.

All in all, it boils down to one simple fault: the players' inability to listen and comprehend warnings and short-term mutes. To be honest, as a community you have behaved very negatively towards everybody else - and while this may not be you, this could represent one of your friends. As a result of these repeated actions, we simply can't let you guys get away with this when others have to put up with it.

If you want to stop the "extreme" punishments, then start by looking at yourself and your community and seeing what you can fix there. Because from a statistical standpoint, I can say that the current punishment rule is justified considering the amount of wrongdoing that goes on in the chats daily.
 
Kirby12352 said:
To you people who rated me a Read More: I didn't literally mean YOU yourself got muted, but most of the people who complain about this are people who got muted. If I still deserve a read more, by all means leave it, but otherwise, take it off please. Jomdorr Joshy54100
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The entire reason they get muted is because hp the staff believe it to be offensive. Some of it just plain isn't offensive. The hour mutes are overkill ergo this suggestion.
 
Jomdorr said:
The entire reason they get muted is because hp the staff believe it to be offensive. Some of it just plain isn't offensive. The hour mutes are overkill ergo this suggestion.
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The hour mutes might be a little long, I do agree. Maybe it could be shortened to like half an hour. Any shorter though, and people might decide to break the rule again.
 
BigBellyBuddah said:
Jomdorr

The fact that you post a troll face picture along with your "complaint" just makes me not even bother to take it seriously. So here, let me draw you a pony!

TWFds72.png
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Please read the post. Don't instantly assume it's some stupid complaint, especially since this section of the forums isn't meant for complaints. Also, I'm sure Jomdorr would appreciate it if you would take his post seriously. It's not fair for him to make a decent thread but then everyone instantly dismiss it. Just, always try to see if this would work, look at from both sides, and see if what he is saying is really true. That is all.
(I mean no offense... don't take this offensively!)
 
Jomdorr said:
I'm suggesting a change not complaining
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But I gave you a pony! Would you like a puppy instead?

Joshy54100 said:
Please read the post. Don't instantly assume it's some stupid complaint, especially since this section of the forums isn't meant for complaints. Also, I'm sure Jomdorr would appreciate it if you would take his post seriously. It's not fair for him to make a decent thread but then everyone instantly dismiss it. Just, always try to see if this would work, look at from both sides, and see if what he is saying is really true. That is all.
(I mean no offense... don't take this offensively!)
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As I stated above my /lovely/ pony. The fact that he would add a troll face to his post just immediately makes me not take him seriously.
 
Imboring56 said:
As staff members slowly came to the conclusion that public chats like General were becoming impossible to moderate, we also figured out that players weren't learning from 5 to even 30 minute slaps on the wrist.

We don't like giving punishment, nor do you like receiving punishment. Yet this rule was implemented because players that could be just like you and your friends had said things that aren't allowed, and we had muted you only for short periods of time. That being said, you still didn't listen, and it seemed unfair that people were getting away with multiple rule-breaking comments because of the fact that they could sit through a short mute.

All in all, it boils down to one simple fault: the players' inability to listen and comprehend warnings and short-term mutes. To be honest, as a community you have behaved very negatively towards everybody else - and while this may not be you, this could represent one of your friends. As a result of these repeated actions, we simply can't let you guys get away with this when others have to put up with it.

If you want to stop the "extreme" punishments, then start by looking at yourself and your community and seeing what you can fix there. Because from a statistical standpoint, I can say that the current punishment rule is justified considering the amount of wrongdoing that goes on in the chats daily.
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I dissagree entirely, my entire suggestion is that massive checks the potential offended third party, with take less than a minute to do, please read the third paragraph. This is a tweak, I have not suggested a chance to the severity despite thinking its overkill I'm well aware of the chats past.
 
Kirby12352 said:
The hour mutes might be a little long, I do agree. Maybe it could be shortened to like half an hour. Any shorter though, and people might decide to break the rule again.
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If I have directly offended somone then I will sit out an hour, until then its too severe
 
Well every staff member posting in this thread had completely misunderstood the entire point to this thread. It was a simple fix to a simple problem but clearly you guys are set in your ways to understand the validity of this suggestion. If someone would be so kind as to lock it before its gets flamey I'd appreciate it. Imboring56 lockmister
 
Jomdorr,
Ah, that is my bad. I did not read that section clearly enough, thank you for pointing it out.

While this would be helpful to offenders, having to search for that offended third party simply isn't feasible with our player base. We're not going to ask around after a joke that could or could not be taken as offensive has been made. We're not going to ask, "Hey guys, who thinks that <player>'s joke was offensive?" in General chat.

Not only could people that hold grudges against you say no simply to spite you, but it would yield inaccurate results and be time-consuming amongst the staff. As a result, we try to think from the views of really anybody, which is why we mute. If you want to make a joke in General or another public chat, you could do one of two things before you post it:
  • Run over the question (make sure that it is appropriate for that chat, make sure that it does not hold blatant offensive content, or that it could be taken offensively by some users, even if a very small part of the player base)
  • Ask a team member (we don't bite! ask us to see if it would be appropriate to run that joke through General; we'll often give you a fast and concise reply)
However, asking a third party would simply not be a reliable method on picking and choosing our punishments, and it would simply be better to rely on the judgment of the staff currently working as seen from /modlist. Some staff are much more strict than others, while some are very lenient. You are simply going to have to deal with the way we handle some things, because chat moderation is heavily opinionated, and in this case we'd always want to rely on the opinion of a staff member for a direct punishment.
 
Also, I cannot lock this thread, as it is out of my jurisdiction. I'll ask MonMarty to do so though.
 
Jomdorr said:
Well every staff member posting in this thread had completely misunderstood the entire point to this thread. It was a simple fix to a simple problem but clearly you guys are set in your ways to understand the validity of this suggestion. If someone would be so kind as to lock it before its gets flamey I'd appreciate it. Imboring56 lockmister
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I understood the point. I looked in hawkeye logs for mutes in general issued by BigBellyBuddah. He issued one tempmute in the last 2 weeks against a player in General for making a sexually inappropriate joke. Every other mute issued was for Help and Trade, one purpose channels that are not "funzies channels".

Is that muting overkill?

Additionally, you haven't logged on the server for roughly 10 days, giving you no first hand experience, giving you no first hand experience, and making your evaluation based on third party opinions.

I hope you understand people in general have a hard time taking you serious with the above in mind, and the generally unserious manner you presented this suggestion.
 
Imboring56 said:
Jomdorr,
Ah, that is my bad. I did not read that section clearly enough, thank you for pointing it out.

While this would be helpful to offenders, having to search for that offended third party simply isn't feasible with our player base. We're not going to ask around after a joke that could or could not be taken as offensive has been made. We're not going to ask, "Hey guys, who thinks that <player>'s joke was offensive?" in General chat.

Not only could people that hold grudges against you say no simply to spite you, but it would yield inaccurate results and be time-consuming amongst the staff. As a result, we try to think from the views of really anybody, which is why we mute. If you want to make a joke in General or another public chat, you could do one of two things before you post it:
  • Run over the question (make sure that it is appropriate for that chat, make sure that it does not hold blatant offensive content, or that it could be taken offensively by some users, even if a very small part of the player base)
  • Ask a team member (we don't bite! ask us to see if it would be appropriate to run that joke through General; we'll often give you a fast and concise reply)
However, asking a third party would simply not be a reliable method on picking and choosing our punishments, and it would simply be better to rely on the judgment of the staff currently working as seen from /modlist. Some staff are much more strict than others, while some are very lenient. You are simply going to have to deal with the way we handle some things, because chat moderation is heavily opinionated, and in this case we'd always want to rely on the opinion of a staff member for a direct punishment.
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I just don't want get muted for something that was meant a genuine joke. The staff are to harsh. As much as this seems like effort. That's cause it is, nothing in life is easy, this method tweaks the chat moderation so if people are offended they can either seek out staff or staff can identify them as best they can and solve this properly. Also you last post pionts out that staff are muttering regardless of weather the people on the receiving end is actually offended which is wrong. I've not seen many complaints about general before, people were muted for clearly offensive statements its now out of control in my eyes
 
I personally have my own personal way of handling mutes which marks the severity with which I will mute someone. If I see something mute worthy I go through a process.

1. I check the person for previous mutes. I see If they have been muted before, what for, and for how long. What I see here determines step 2, except in some cases where outstanding actions call for more severity.

2. First time offenders get hit with either a warning or a 30 minute mute depending on content. Some obvious wrong chats (very case by case) get this as well.
Prior mutes of 15 minutes or less get a 30 minute mute.
Prior mutes of 20 or 30 minutes get a 1 hr mute.
Prior mutes of 1 hr get a 3 hr mute.
Prior mutes of 3 hrs get a 1 day mute.
Prior mutes of 1 day get a 3 day mute.
Past this point I start dishing out temp bans.

Other staff have their own systems of judgement, but this is mine. I can make decisions pretty quickly and efficiently this way when I am moderating the chats. I don't typically moderate the chats closely (namely general that I don't) so if I see something offensive it is because it either stood out or someone else found it offensive and pointed it out.

Tom and imboring have pointed out already, very well, why the rule change was implemented.

If people don't want to get muted for something offensive, then they simply should keep it out of the global chats.
 
MonMarty said:
I understood the point. I looked in hawkeye logs for mutes in general issued by BigBellyBuddah. He issued one tempmute in the las 2 weeks against a player for making a sexually inappropriate joke.

Is that muting overkill?
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Your staff muted a guy for saying the cake is a lie, it's the oldest joke running yes that's overkill...
 
Jomdorr said:
Your staff muted a guy for saying the cake is a lie, it's the oldest joke running yes that's overkill...
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Can you show me the context, the time, the target, the mute issuer, so I can actually look about the background? I highly doubt a staff member would mute someone for that joke unless the background begs it so be so.
 
Omnomivore said:
I personally have my own personal way of handling mutes which marks the severity with which I will mute someone. If I see something mute worthy I go through a process.

1. I check the person for previous mutes. I see If they have been muted before, what for, and for how long. What I see here determines step 2, except in some cases where outstanding actions call for more severity.

2. First time offenders get hit with either a warning or a 30 minute mute depending on content. Some obvious wrong chats (very case by case) get this as well.
Prior mutes of 15 minutes or less get a 30 minute mute.
Prior mutes of 20 or 30 minutes get a 1 hr mute.
Prior mutes of 1 hr get a 3 hr mute.
Prior mutes of 3 hrs get a 1 day mute.
Prior mutes of 1 day get a 3 day mute.
Past this point I start dishing out temp bans.

Other staff have their own systems of judgement, but this is mine. I can make decisions pretty quickly and efficiently this way when I am moderating the chats.

Tom and imboring have pointed out already, very well, why the rule change was implemented.

If people don't want to get muted for something offensive, then they simply should keep it out of the global chats.
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If only the other staff were as nice as you about it. And thus global has become boring, I like the massive that was social, and jokes were jokes, and funny was funny. And over the top had a reasonable line.
 
MonMarty said:
Can you show me the context, the time, the target, the mute issuer, so I can actually look about the background? I highly doubt a staff member would mute someone for that joke unless the background begs it so be so.
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I recall this, there may be a staff complaint about it. Someone was muted for asking for a cake recipe in help and then answering themselves with "the cake is a lie" (also in help).
 
Then the answer to this thread is fairly simple, and the premise of the argumentation is wrong. I would have a strong word with the game staff if they were being overly draconian with jokes in General, but this doesn't seem to be the case.

Help and Trade channels are one-purpose channels. Jokes do not answer the question or fill the purpose of the channel, and therefor receive the same punishment of channel misuse, regardless of the content of the joke.
 
Omnomivore said:
I recall this, there may be a staff complaint about it. Someone was muted for asking for a cake recipe in help and then answering themselves with "the cake is a lie" (also in help).
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I didn't see him use help chat? To reply that is
 
MonMarty said:
Then the answer to this thread is fairly simple, and the premise of the argumentation is wrong. I would have a strong word with the game staff if they were being overly draconian with jokes in General, but this doesn't seem to be the case.

Help and Trade channels are one-purpose channels. Jokes do not answer the question or fill the purpose of the channel, and therefor receive the same punishment of thread misuse, regardless of the content of the joke.
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Many of these players are first time offenders and do not read the rules. Still hardly fair, how do you expect to encourage new player growth if you have such a hard by the book attitude. You need to develop a united universal method to handle it, some staff are lenient some are harsh in my eyes over the top this is unfair on some players. If he had read the rules does he really seem like somone who would go out of his way to abuse chat systems. Nope.
 
I'd personally like the staff to drop any and all prevention based moderation on any of the chat channels, but in general it's been found that people prefer the moderated situation where the quality of the channels are ensured. Trade and Help are purpose driven channels. Anything that is not related to the primary channel, either helping, or offering or requesting items or services, does not belong there, no matter how hilarious it is.

That begs the question however, is this a thread about requesting us to stop moderating Help and Trade for channel misuse, or a general move from the immediate mute, to a more warning driven system? The two are stating to blur and I don't quite see what the point of the thread it anymore between the two.
 
Well then ill re-focus, there should be a universal warning of a first time offence 5 minute mute, second time should be the hour mute (if it gets to this stage then you are just not listening), this should apply to the rules for offensive chat and the misuse of chats. It's very rare to get repeat offenders. So there is no need for such a large punishment.

I'd personally like to see massive craft team develop a specific team of people that deal directly with player disputes in chat, specialists in chat so that it is easier for players to understand what the correct standard of chat should be, your team are divided on how to administer punishment, thus confusing the newer players as to what the standard should be, some staff will let things slide others like bbb just can't stand the sight of one error.
 
If I can overcome your general patronizing attitude and demeanor, I will take it to the next staff meeting to figure out what happened to the warning first standard, though I already know the response.
 
Originally I wanted to see massive team approach offended players. But I boring has quite rightly pointed out you may not allways know who the offended could be
 
MonMarty said:
If I can overcome your general patronizing attitude and demeanor, I will take it to the next staff meeting to figure out what happened to the warning first standard, though I already know the response.
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I live in a household full of autistic brothers i do not mean to sound this way the Internet is difficult to put across emotion when I spend all my time around people who are as blunt as me. I mean no offence.
 
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