Archived Revising The Trait System: Races And Classes

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Gumee

Gumee

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How PvP should function, is a topic of much debate. Personally, I've always been an advocate of minimalist PvP. No enchants, no potions, and no gapples; only plain armor and a weapon. However, very few share those ideals and I have grown to like the traits system. The traits system is unique to massive and has a lot of potential. It's one of the reasons that I've stuck around despite the formerly aristocratic PvP system. However, it had its flaws and obviously needs rework. So here's my suggestions for a new and improved system.

I'm going to divide traits up into two categories, PvP and PvE. Furthermore, I'm going to characterize PvP traits as "Classes" and PvE traits as "Races". Players can then choose from a preset roster of Class and Races. These Classes and Races would be balanced and tweaked by staff, then tested by players. That way things will remain relatively balanced.

Here's an example:
Player 1 is an Orc Berserker and Player 2 is a Qadir Archer.

Race: Orc
Traits: Carnivore, Poison Immune etc
Class: Berserker
Traits: Axe Expert, Speed 1, Archery Vulnerable,

Race: Qadir
Traits: Healsunlight, nightvision
Class: Archer
Traits: Archery Expert, Sword Vulnerable, PoisonStrike

(These traits assigned to each race and class is just hypothetical and serve as placeholders for the example). In this match up, The archer has the advantage, as the berserker is weak to archery. For the orc to gain an advantage it would have to switch to another hypothetical class such as "knight", whom would use sword to exploit the weakness of the archer. This would also add some strategy into raiding, as factions would have to balance their invading force to cover all weakness or exploit weakness of a target. Much like how traits are now, the Race traits could be canceled in PvP, to avoid any additional advantages and maintain a completely PvE exclusive presence. I think it would be better to keep Race traits in PvP, to give back the freedom of choice that removing the traits feature would present. As in the example, the archer has poison strike, but the Orc race prevents that trait from being effective. A side note I'd like to add, is that a significant cool down should be placed on switching races/classes to prevent people from over exploiting a weakness. If a raid team doesn't do significant scouting and raids with a bad composition, they shouldn't be able to immediately change class/race and rush back in and overwhelm defenders. Likewise for defenders, if their defending composition isn't great then they shouldn't be able to teleport back in and wipe the raiders after witnessing their composition.

The main idea here, is to create a class and race system that balances pvp and creates additional variability (Breaks the meta of having a raid full of potted up axe wielders or bow spam flywater archers). I think that some collaboration between staff and players in designing these classes/races would produce a system that everyone could be happy with.
 
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Gumee said:
How PvP should function, is a topic of much debate. Personally, I've always been an advocate of minimalist PvP. No enchants, no potions, and no gapples; only plain armor and a weapon. However, very few share those ideals and I have grown to like the traits system. The traits system is unique to massive and has a lot of potential. It's one of the reasons that I've stuck around despite the formerly aristocratic PvP system. However, it had its flaws and obviously needs rework. So here's my suggestions for a new and improved system.

I'm going to divide traits up into two categories, PvP and PvE. Furthermore, I'm going to characterize PvP traits as "Classes" and PvE traits as "Races". Players can then choose from a preset roster of Class and Races. These Classes and Races would be balanced and tweaked by staff, then tested by players. That way things will remain relatively balanced.

Here's an example:
Player 1 is an Orc Berserker and Player 2 is a Qadir Archer.

Race: Orc
Traits: Carnivore, Poison Immune etc
Class: Berserker
Traits: Axe Expert, Speed 1, Archery Vulnerable,

Race: Qadir
Traits: Healsunlight, nightvision
Class: Archer
Traits: Archery Expert, Sword Vulnerable, PoisonStrike

(These traits assigned to each race and class is just hypothetical and serve as placeholders for the example). In this match up, The archer has the advantage, as the berserker is weak to archery. For the orc to gain an advantage it would have to switch to another hypothetical class such as "knight", whom would use sword to exploit the weakness of the archer. This would also add some strategy into raiding, as factions would have to balance their invading force to cover all weakness or exploit weakness of a target. Much like how traits are now, the Race traits could be canceled in PvP, to avoid any additional advantages and maintain a completely PvE exclusive presence. I think it would be better to keep Race traits in PvP, to give back the freedom of choice that removing the traits feature would present. As in the example, the archer has poison strike, but the Orc race prevents that trait from being effective. A side note I'd like to add, is that a significant cool down should be placed on switching races/classes to prevent people from over exploiting a weakness. If a raid team doesn't do significant scouting and raids with a bad composition, they shouldn't be able to immediately change class/race and rush back in and overwhelm defenders. Likewise for defenders, if their defending composition isn't great then they shouldn't be able to teleport back in and wipe the raiders after witnessing their composition.

The main idea here, is to create a class and race system that balances pvp and creates additional variability (Breaks the meta of having a raid full of potted up axe wielders or bow spam flywater archers). I think that some collaboration between staff and players in designing these classes/races would produce a system that everyone could be happy with.
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skimmed through it and only saw the word flywater mentioned one or two times, you've came a long way. Anyway the idea is pretty good, hopefully it doesn't get archived like a lot of the threads on here
 
I think we should all be forced to wear leather armor and fight with sticks.
 
One thing to keep in mind, just recently traits were re-introduced but several that disable with a PvP flag. This was due to high demand from PvPers. So I don't believe they will get ANOTHER rework after such a short time unless PvPers end up disliking the rework. Also, classes was an idea being toyed with by Gethelp introduced by another Idea thread involving HCF classes. These classes were determined by the armor you wear. So classes involving traits would be rather rendudant. Interesting idea though. Its just a bit of a step back as races use to be a thing, even though they weren't as fleshed out as this.
 
@Kaezir
Kaezir said:
One thing to keep in mind, just recently traits were re-introduced but several that disable with a PvP flag. This was due to high demand from PvPers. So I don't believe they will get ANOTHER rework after such a short time unless PvPers end up disliking the rework.
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This update was a step in the right direction, but it is far from a complete solution. There was immediate backlash from the community (here). Even though there hasn't been much time to test it out, I will make the claim that it isn't enough. To take a quote from another post (here):

Nyrock said:
There seems to be one set way of fighting. Granted, you can choose sword or axe, but anything beyond that is pointless. To PvP on Massive, you must have a certain "skill set" and have a lot of potions. Same armor, weapons and fighting styles make PvP bland, especially to those who are either unskilled, or simply dislike that playing style. (People want more variety, the ability to use different skills and playing styles to create a more entertaining and diverse PvP enviroment)
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@Nyrock

The thing that I appreciated most about traits was the strategy it offered. Vanos was successful because we were able to find a combination of traits that created a new meta, which I'll break down. There were five us, all wielding bows. Two were stunners, two were dps, and 1 was a "flex". The stunners ran traits like slow strike, stun strike, nausea strike, blindness strike, and various debuffs. The two dps ran traits like harm strike, wither strike, poison strike, holy, and other various damaging traits. The "flex" ran a few dps traits like harm strike, but also had a bit of melee build in them. They'd run around and jab at people that were behind cover, or melee after someone who was out of reach for a primary archery. They played a mix role and this allowed us to counter other trait builds (like if someone were to flywater away, we'd send the flex to chase them back to shore). This team building and strategy making is what was fun to my faction four months ago. We were able to dominate other factions of equal PvP prowess. We were even able to hold our own against several factions of higher wealth and experience. I will admit, this was completely broken. If all 5 of us were present and coordinated via skype, we were incredibly difficult to stop.

The point of that tangent is to talk about the importance of a check and balance system to still grant pvpers the variability and uniqueness we want, without being boring or over powered or broken. That's the purpose of this suggestion. To develop a system where pvp is requires more thought than just farming mcmmo and swarming with one trait build. The separation of races and classes was to compromise and keep traits, like flywater, that broke pvp out of builds but still useful in a pvp sense. All while keeping the ability to have a level of uniqueness to the build.

Kaezir said:
Also, classes was an idea being toyed with by Gethelp introduced by another Idea thread involving HCF classes. These classes were determined by the armor you wear. So classes involving traits would be rather rendudant.
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I originally decided to write this post on prior experiences of mine. I was staff on a server that had a similar set up with classes and it worked beautifully. In fact it mirrored massive in a lot of ways. There was an extensive questing world, pvp world, and a towny world. There were several classes, each one defined by armor. For example, there was a marksmen class which had archery perks and abilities, but to use them they had to be wearing all leather. There was a scout class that got speed 2 and jump 2, but they had to wear gold helmets and boots with iron chest plate and iron leggings. The reason for the armor differences was to balance the classes out so that no heavy hitter had diamond armor, and no healer or support class was a complete glass cannon. However, with the application of traits, it's possible to write these checks and balances into the code itself. Like the sword vulnerable example in the original post. As for the redundancy of traits and classes, I maybe misspoke. The class/race system would replace the current trait system. It would be an entirely new system that just recycled certain traits into the classes/races.

Kaezir said:
Its just a bit of a step back as races use to be a thing, even though they weren't as fleshed out as this.
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On a side note, I'd like to point out that in my factions attempt at a PvP conquest, we heard several remarks from factions of various wealth and experience that they missed the races plugin. I wouldn't call it a step back, but rather an updated version that takes the foundation of the races plugin and adds the wisdom gained from the traits plugin.

Tl;dr I bolded all the important stuff.
 
Gumee said:
Tl;dr I bolded all the important stuff.
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Several PvPers requested traits to be turned off during PvP. More or less I didn't see any of the PvPers who requested this change post in that thread. I would certainly be curious to get their insight on the matter and if they find the change they sought after not to be the solution after all. @Sevak

As for the races. Once again, it is a step back from what evolved into traits. With races you're forcing not just PvPers, but PvEers as well to play a certain way. I like the ability to freely swap abilities and not be forced to build a certain way. Having that freedom taken away greatly impacts how people play and forces them into a corner. Sure people miss the race plugin but it was upgraded into traits for a reason.

But personally I dont see the point of races or classes with traits if we will have classes implemented through an armor system.
 
Traits is like driving an Opel or Renault car with a spoiler. It's kind of pointless when you think about it, because everything is still the same aside from an abnormal deviation that doesn't do anything.

There was a lot of movement on the idea that, while traits offered strategy, that a considerably larger part of the players/PVP'ers disliked extra layers of strategy because it complicated PVP unnecessarily, or because it wasn't compatible with skills gained on other PVP servers. There's obviously some people that disagree, but the strategy as a value in itself does not beat up against the arguments presented against it at this point.
 
Kaezir said:
Several PvPers requested traits to be turned off during PvP. More or less I didn't see any of the PvPers who requested this change post in that thread. I would certainly be curious to get their insight on the matter and if they find the change they sought after not to be the solution after all. @Sevak

As for the races. Once again, it is a step back from what evolved into traits. With races you're forcing not just PvPers, but PvEers as well to play a certain way. I like the ability to freely swap abilities and not be forced to build a certain way. Having that freedom taken away greatly impacts how people play and forces them into a corner. Sure people miss the race plugin but it was upgraded into traits for a reason.

But personally I dont see the point of races or classes with traits if we will have classes implemented through an armor system.
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I think we need to stop trying to implement new things and just stick with what we have that works. My main concern with adding in new systems is that they never seem to receive a positive reception from the PvP community (Traits, Vampires). If it aint broke, don't fix it. PvP is fine right now. No one can complain about damage. No one can say it isn't skill based. Keep it this way... please.
 
Kaezir said:
But personally I dont see the point of races or classes with traits if we will have classes implemented through an armor system.
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That's still not the main directive of the plugin. If you're already adding a class system through armor, then that's cool. The reason I still reference traits in this post is to make the information more digestible. Don't view it as traits, view it as perks or buffs or what have you. The only reason I dislike the armor idea is because:
MonMarty said:
a considerably larger part of the players/PVP'ers disliked extra layers of strategy because it complicated PVP unnecessarily.
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As a staff member on the previous server I am referred to, I found myself answering questions about how classes worked frequently. Players asking me "What armor goes with what class" and similar arguments about the complexity of pvp that it brought. I'm going to break down how one of those classes worked, and then explain how to integrate it into this system I am referring to. Then I'll address points brought up by MonMarty and Kaezir.

My favorite of the classes was the marksmen. It was forced to wear all leather armor and had additional damage with a bow. It had a passive regen potion effect and had access to the magicspells leap spell. Now, here's how I would spin it using this system on massive. Give it the same effects that it would have with archery expert, harm strike, and sword vulnerable. Potentially some more fluff traits to balance it with additional classes. (Like giving this class poison strike and another class poison immune). What I'm suggesting, is essentially recreating a system similar to type effectiveness in pokemon. Or even simpler, rock/paper/scissors. Archer beats axe wielder, axe wielder beats sword wielder and sword wielder beats archer; with a few additional quirks like the introduction of a healer or support class that takes advantage of those "aura traits" referred to ages ago.

MonMarty said:
There was a lot of movement on the idea that, while traits offered strategy, that a considerably larger part of the players/PVP'ers disliked extra layers of strategy because it complicated PVP unnecessarily, or because it wasn't compatible with skills gained on other PVP servers. There's obviously some people that disagree, but the strategy as a value in itself does not beat up against the arguments presented against it at this point.
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This is all very valid. It's a split discussion and I made several points to appease the majority of the community. The race/class split was to keep traits that were annoying in PvP, but had PvE viability out of PvP. And if you want to discuss complexity, I for one dislike the potion/enchant/fix system currently. You need to grind potions which are kinda broken being that hoppers are disabled, and crafting is obscure. I brought it up to a staff member the other day in ally chat who didn't know you could actually craft potions. Enchanting is a hassle as you have to be moderately wealthy, and the fixing is obscure as there are several ways to repair gear (/fix, mcmmo anvils, regular anvils). About that compatibility argument, yes not every server will run this system. But thats kinda the point. If I want to PvP I can go on a number of PvP focused servers like badlion and mineplex. But this is a fantasy factions rpg server that has a pvp aspect to it. I play here for a different experience and I continue to play here because I can't find another server with this level of uniqueness. The motor skills required to pvp (fast clicking and reflexes) is translatable into anything. It doesn't change how you hit a person, it just changes how you have to approach a pvp fight. These advantages won't make it so that every time a person with a bow fights a person with a sword, one will always win. It simply gives an edge over the other that makes pvp more interesting and group fights more flavorful.

Kaezir said:
With races you're forcing not just PvPers, but PvEers as well to play a certain way. I like the ability to freely swap abilities and not be forced to build a certain way. Having that freedom taken away greatly impacts how people play and forces them into a corner. Sure people miss the race plugin but it was upgraded into traits for a reason.
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I can address this in the same way the supreme court would address a matter of constitutionality. Who's rights are more important? The race/class system was to provide a separate, but equal appeal to both PvPers and PvEers. The traits wouldn't define them, but rather be perks. By adding this system of traits being removed upon PvP engagement, you're taking freedom to class build away from PvPers and granting it solely to PvE. And like I aforementioned, if you want to talk about forcing a play style, forcing certain armaments per class is kind of forcing a play style. Players would be able to freely switch between classes/races within reason, so it's not like they're auto locking to one build.
 
Sevak said:
I think we need to stop trying to implement new things and just stick with what we have that works. My main concern with adding in new systems is that they never seem to receive a positive reception from the PvP community (Traits, Vampires). If it aint broke, don't fix it. PvP is fine right now. No one can complain about damage. No one can say it isn't skill based. Keep it this way... please.
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I'm going to have to disagree with you here. PvP isn't equal. There's a wealth imbalance. There are factions with no god gear or access to dark rooms or that can easily provide materials for PvP. They aren't able to equally participate as factions like Raptum or Deld who's wealth is so overwhelming it makes PvP unfair from the start. A class system wouldn't guarantee equality, but if Deld comes to swarm another fac with all one trait build like previously, at least they would have options to fight back. I mean, I know for a fact that you complained about PvP being dead and no one wants to PvP anymore. People are scared of losing what they own because its so minimal in comparison to what you have. The first step to revitalizing PvP is to create reasons for people to want to engage and feel they have a chance of success.
 
Gumee said:
Or even simpler, rock/paper/scissors. Archer beats axe wielder, axe wielder beats sword wielder and sword wielder beats archer
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I feel like that removes a large portion of the skill aspect. If it is to be a game of build vs build, it should be who builds better and not this.

The rock/paper/scissors adds a superficial, if anything, layer of strategy. It'll turn into a game of people switching builds mid raid.
 
Gumee said:
I'm going to have to disagree with you here. PvP isn't equal. There's a wealth imbalance. There are factions with no god gear or access to dark rooms or that can easily provide materials for PvP. They aren't able to equally participate as factions like Raptum or Deld who's wealth is so overwhelming it makes PvP unfair from the start. A class system wouldn't guarantee equality, but if Deld comes to swarm another fac with all one trait build like previously, at least they would have options to fight back. I mean, I know for a fact that you complained about PvP being dead and no one wants to PvP anymore. People are scared of losing what they own because its so minimal in comparison to what you have. The first step to revitalizing PvP is to create reasons for people to want to engage and feel they have a chance of success.
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How do traits give people the feeling that they have a chance of success? People not having gear is how you start on any server. Believe it or not I didn't spawn in with double chests of god weapons. I worked my way up. PvP isn't unbalanced because people don't have god weapons and stats. Old players are always going to have more than new players and that's just the way it is.
 
Sevak said:
I think we need to stop trying to implement new things and just stick with what we have that works. My main concern with adding in new systems is that they never seem to receive a positive reception from the PvP community (Traits, Vampires). If it aint broke, don't fix it. PvP is fine right now. No one can complain about damage. No one can say it isn't skill based. Keep it this way... please.
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While "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" is a sentiment crime in our book, it accurately sums up our attitude to tech right now. I think a better way of saying it, "There's other stuff broke, other stuff to fix".
 
Kaezir said:
I feel like that removes a large portion of the skill aspect. If it is to be a game of build vs build, it should be who builds better and not this.

The rock/paper/scissors adds a superficial, if anything, layer of strategy. It'll turn into a game of people switching builds mid raid.
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If you refer to the original post, I address that issue.
Gumee said:
A side note I'd like to add, is that a significant cool down should be placed on switching races/classes to prevent people from over exploiting a weakness. If a raid team doesn't do significant scouting and raids with a bad composition, they shouldn't be able to immediately change class/race and rush back in and overwhelm defenders. Likewise for defenders, if their defending composition isn't great then they shouldn't be able to teleport back in and wipe the raiders after witnessing their composition.
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The PvP still works the same. You click fast, you strafe. The skill aspect is still present, this simply adds on a new aspect. I think there's something that people forget. Factions is about base building, empire creating, and coordinated PvP efforts. That's why /tp PvP was so empty hours after its release. It's infinitely more fun to launch or defend raids on bases that the players have built in the beautifully designed maps.

Sevak said:
How do traits give people the feeling that they have a chance of success? People not having gear is how you start on any server. Believe it or not I didn't spawn in with double chests of god weapons. I worked my way up. PvP isn't unbalanced because people don't have god weapons and stats. Old players are always going to have more than new players and that's just the way it is.
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Notice how a lot of the old players are leaving? Adding new features and intrigue has the potential of bringing them back into the community. I agree old players have more than new players, but it becomes an issue when old players are able to smother and completely dominate any new players that are trying to obtain the same level of status. It's very difficult for new factions to peak through that wealth gap. You witnessed the rise of Vanos, and you are aware that we forced ourselves into the PvP scene. We've raided facs of similar wealth and experience to us and if we weren't in the dominion, with your support there was no way we would've had any success. Remember when KINGS raided us for like a week straight? Without help from older players we would've probably quit. They had a 10:1 ratio for all the gear we possessed. That's a bit excessive. My point being about traits revitalizing the pvp community is that it sparks interest in PvP and degrades the "Oh I can't participate because they're overwhelming me" argument. Instead, players can see the raiding forces and go "Oh, they're all using axes I know how we can work against them and have a better chance".
 
MonMarty said:
While "if it ain't broke, don't fix it" is a sentiment crime in our book, it accurately sums up our attitude to tech right now. I think a better way of saying it, "There's other stuff broke, other stuff to fix".
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I kinda made this point in another reply, but I'm going to state it here in a more elaborate way. This is the godfather of all factions servers. It isn't about going to an arena and pvping, this is about building kingdoms and defending/raiding them. If I wanted to build a town and go and pvp like every other server in some arena I'd join a towny server. If you want to focus on bugs and glitches, I applaud that decision. But to continuously ignore the dynamic issue of a splitting player base and make half assed attempts at appeasing both sides without much effort or consideration, is simply lazy. Vanos quit because we were tired of the way things were run. I know several other players who feel the same. I think that one of the most important issues you need to handle is to pick an identity you want this server to have. Is it RP or is it PvP? Is it arcade PvP? Or is it factions RP? Is it "all the old players have the gear you'd find on an 'OP server' and the new players have to deal" server, or is it a "everything is fairly accessible" server. The staff team has several departments to it. This can be a flaw or a benefit depending on how you view it. But I would imagine that means that there can be staff dedicated to all problems, not just tech or moderation or RP.
 
I just think you are approaching it the wrong way. In an MMO sure there are counters to classes. But these builds are more often than not, created by the player base and slowly evolve and change in a continuous cycle of countering.

What you are are asking for is something seen more so in a MOBA or game with set characters that essentially are made one way and almost cant be changed aside from small enhancements like items or perks.

I just don't think it is the right approach. As it stands now, anyone can fight anyone if they learn. The only issue here is gear and obtaining it. Changing up the way traits work is not a solution to this. Just a small step for people to stand on only to still be below everyone else. Traits won't motivate more people to PvP if they still lack the gear.
 
Gumee said:
How PvP should function, is a topic of much debate. Personally, I've always been an advocate of minimalist PvP. No enchants, no potions, and no gapples; only plain armor and a weapon. However, very few share those ideals and I have grown to like the traits system. The traits system is unique to massive and has a lot of potential. It's one of the reasons that I've stuck around despite the formerly aristocratic PvP system. However, it had its flaws and obviously needs rework. So here's my suggestions for a new and improved system.

I'm going to divide traits up into two categories, PvP and PvE. Furthermore, I'm going to characterize PvP traits as "Classes" and PvE traits as "Races". Players can then choose from a preset roster of Class and Races. These Classes and Races would be balanced and tweaked by staff, then tested by players. That way things will remain relatively balanced.

Here's an example:
Player 1 is an Orc Berserker and Player 2 is a Qadir Archer.

Race: Orc
Traits: Carnivore, Poison Immune etc
Class: Berserker
Traits: Axe Expert, Speed 1, Archery Vulnerable,

Race: Qadir
Traits: Healsunlight, nightvision
Class: Archer
Traits: Archery Expert, Sword Vulnerable, PoisonStrike

(These traits assigned to each race and class is just hypothetical and serve as placeholders for the example). In this match up, The archer has the advantage, as the berserker is weak to archery. For the orc to gain an advantage it would have to switch to another hypothetical class such as "knight", whom would use sword to exploit the weakness of the archer. This would also add some strategy into raiding, as factions would have to balance their invading force to cover all weakness or exploit weakness of a target. Much like how traits are now, the Race traits could be canceled in PvP, to avoid any additional advantages and maintain a completely PvE exclusive presence. I think it would be better to keep Race traits in PvP, to give back the freedom of choice that removing the traits feature would present. As in the example, the archer has poison strike, but the Orc race prevents that trait from being effective. A side note I'd like to add, is that a significant cool down should be placed on switching races/classes to prevent people from over exploiting a weakness. If a raid team doesn't do significant scouting and raids with a bad composition, they shouldn't be able to immediately change class/race and rush back in and overwhelm defenders. Likewise for defenders, if their defending composition isn't great then they shouldn't be able to teleport back in and wipe the raiders after witnessing their composition.

The main idea here, is to create a class and race system that balances pvp and creates additional variability (Breaks the meta of having a raid full of potted up axe wielders or bow spam flywater archers). I think that some collaboration between staff and players in designing these classes/races would produce a system that everyone could be happy with.
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On the note of Mcmmo pvp, it's actually really cool in design. Swords gave you a 33% counter attack chance while defending with a sword, this was to counter axes. Axes have increased armor damage and critical hit rates meant to take out unarmed players quickly. Unarmed have you arrow deflect so you could evade oncoming firing squads and let you disarm a players weapon. Archery was meant to do massive damage upon a single hit 300% by default and nauseate your enemies. Sadly the key features of Mcmmo pvp have been nerfed, destroying the original intent of the pluggin.

On the note of Traits, they should be divided into classes. Each class with its own buffs and debuffs, kinda like what you referenced earlier. This way there can be established classes that counter eachother. I don't thinks it's entirely a great idea to let players be able to fully modify their perks, but perhaps have some standalone traits that players can add on top of the class they select.
Kaezir said:
Traits won't motivate more people to PvP if they still lack the gear.
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Massivecraft has always had a poor time trying to balance things, so a MOBA approach is the best bet if you want to have less problems for both players and staff.

Also, an hour of Darkrooming makes me 3 God Armor sets consistently. It's incredibly easy to produce. I don't think that's the issue, I think it has more or less to do with people not wanting to risk losing their weapon, an inventory of potions, stack of enderpearls, and a few Notch Apples.
 
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pokyug said:
On the note of Mcmmo pvp, it's actually really cool in design. Swords gave you a 33% counter attack chance while defending with a sword, this was to counter axes. Axes have increased armor damage and critical hit rates meant to take out unarmed players quickly. Unarmed have you arrow deflect so you could evade oncoming firing squads and let you disarm a players weapon. Archery was meant to do massive damage upon a single hit 300% by default and nauseate your enemies. Sadly the key features of Mcmmo pvp have been nerfed, destroying the original intent of the pluggin.

On the note of Traits, they should be divided into classes. Each class with its own buffs and debuffs, kinda like what you referenced earlier. This way there can be established classes that counter eachother. I don't thinks it's entirely a great idea to let players be able to fully modify their perks, but perhaps have some standalone traits that players can add on top of the class they select.

Massivecraft has always had a poor time trying to balance things, so a MOBA approach is the best bet if you want to have less problems for both players and staff.

Also, an hour of Darkrooming makes me 3 God Armor sets consistently. It's incredibly easy to produce. I don't think that's the issue, I think it has more or less to do with people not wanting to risk losing their weapon, an inventory of potions, stack of enderpearls, and a few Notch Apples.
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If you can manage to die with an inventory full of potions, you simply don't know how to use them
 
pokyug said:
That's exactly the point. Newbies don't know how to use them, and they just spent the last 10 minutes making those potions. It gives you a little insight as to why a person would be hesitant to fight.
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So you want to reduce skill involved and instead replace it with a rock paper scissors system so that new players can win just as much as old players? O.o
 
I dont likat that idea to be honest because it gives no incentive to get better if you will always be the same as a new player
 
pokyug said:
Current pvpers only like potions, because they are invincible against a person who doesn't know how to use them. It's not right. Without potions they still have a little bit of a chance to kill a veteran pvper.
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This is not true. You know nothing about what the PvPers like or why. Without potions the fights would end in about 10 seconds. All the PvP servers have potions and its for good reason. Maybe instead of trying to explain why the current PvP system doesn't work (which it does), you should try to learn how to use them. Trust me, its not difficult.
 
pokyug said:
I used to kit pvp a lot on Badlion, I know exactly what potion pvp is. It takes a few days to get down the right time to pot, how to crit, improving strafing. Why would people do that when they could pvp in Overwatch? It takes far more skill, the classes are indefinitely more interesting. you also don't have to worry about losing anything. Except your K/D ratio.

I've been saying this for months, my stance on pvp is not meant to appeal to current pvpers, it's to make pvper easier for newbies to get into. You do this by giving MOBA style classes that counter eachother. Giving pvpers a quick teleport to go back where they died.

The idea that you guys have for HCF classes is equally as entertaining as MOBA styles classes. The point remains, classes should ultimately replace majority of potions. This way there's no prep time for potions, and it gives the illusion to the newbie that they are powerful.
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When ever I read your writing all I get out of it is:

" I am shit at PvP and therefore it must change so that way I can do good. And since I am lazy I will not try to improve in the current system like everyone has but instead force it to change to make myself look good"
 
Well quite frankly the only solution for getting more people into pvp is for everybody to compromise on the system thats used, because clearly what the veterans want is not the same that will bring in new people. That being said, it isnt whats being discussed here.

@Kidmodo i totally see where you are coming from, trust me ive seen a lot of people try to change how things are done because they'd rather make it easier for themselves instead of putting forth effort to get good at it. However, i do not think that is how @pokyug is intending to come across here.

@pokyug KitPVP is NOT the same as regular PVP. Comparing the two is comparing Apples and Oranges. Sure they are both fruit, but other than that they are completely different. I am okay at KitPVP but i suck at regular pvp.

And lets be honest.. potions are not an issue. With or without potions, veteran players will kill noobs. There isnt supposed to be an even playing field!! There is NO point to having McMMO or other things if brand new players are able to kill a veteran. What Massive needs is a way to get noobs to stick around long enough to actually get good!! The only person at the moment i can think of that has done this recently is @Neckerei and he got halfway decent in his first few months and at this point he is among the best so, we need more people who will take the time and energy to get good instead of those who expect to be handed the ability to kill those who have been here forever immediately.

There HAS to be some drive to get people to achieve more. Handing people stuff when they join for the first time helps nothing in the long run
 
pokyug said:
For the past year you guys have complained about not having any pvp competition and nobody coming out when you raid. If your solution is so much better than mine, why don't you say something?

Also notice how I can manage to reply to someone without saying something demeaning :O
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Well with your idea it would make pvpers from other servers have a harder time understanding what the hell is going on. The problem with our server is that there is 0 reason to raid. All you get is a god axe which are pretty worthless now and everyone has one. The reason pvpers stay on other servers is because they have the ability to fight for other factions bases and materials. On HCF if your faction does to many time to quickly all their stuff can be stolen. Which makes PvPing a risk/reward system. Here there are no rewards and very little risk and 0 reason to defend your land since we have a risk free world. The problem with PvP is not with the how it works but that there is no benefit in fighting.

My idea: keep it the same just give PvPing more of an award so people actually brother trying it.

PS. I wasn't demeaning I was just saying what you were typing, just in fewer words
 
Kidmodo said:
Here there are no rewards and very little risk and 0 reason to defend your land since we have a risk free world.
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This ^^

There has to be some.. incentive for people to come out and fight. Even if that incentive is to avoid something negative against themselves. But i honestly cant think of any good ideas for that.
 
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