Archived Remove Thorns 5 Items (vine, Clock Etc.)

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65jes89 said:
lol what no that's a terrible argument

Raw damage values from vanilla pvp is an aspect of pvp. Cancerous or not to certain people, get used to it.

Terribly overpowered debuffs is an aspect of pvp. Cancerous or not to certain people, get used to it.

Also, um, it's really not part of pvp, vanilla, massive, or otherwise. You can't even get thorns that high in vanilla, nor on a non-armor item.

It's annoying, overpowered, and unintentional. The argument that thorns shouldn't be removed just because it's a perceived "aspect of pvp" is absurd.
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I dont see whats wrong with overpowered debuffs, raw damage values. Its in one way or another, a part of the game and is open for everyone to use. Therefore why not take full advantage of whats available and use it. Rather than cater to the group of people that complain its overpowered, just get used to it, use it, learn to play around it.
 
Lord_ArchAngel said:
I dont see whats wrong with overpowered debuffs, raw damage values. Its in one way or another, a part of the game and is open for everyone to use. Therefore why not take full advantage of whats available and use it. Rather than cater to the group of people that complain its overpowered, just get used to it, use it, learn to play around it.
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1. Debuffs and buffs have timers and thus are balanced. Thorns 5 is a PERMANENT damage increase with no drawbacks and makes it harder for people to get into pvp if they don't have a thorns vine.
2. Those items were never designed for that purpose, and have already been admitted to being an oversight by staff. Hell, people from your OWN DEPARTMENT have already said it was an oversight and wasn't as intended, and yet you still argue it. I'm genuinely perplexed.

Still confused how a broken item that permanently increases damage, has no negative aspect, breaks strafes, is only worth 15r, and destroys your opponent's armor twice as fast is not considered overpowered. The argument of "everyone should use it" is just stupid for obvious reasons, chief among them being that an unintended item causing a massive shift in meta for pvp proves my point that they are overpowered. The only way to counter an item shouldn't be to use that item back; that is the definition of unbalanced.
 
Lord_ArchAngel said:
I dont see whats wrong with overpowered debuffs, raw damage values. Its in one way or another, a part of the game and is open for everyone to use. Therefore why not take full advantage of whats available and use it. Rather than cater to the group of people that complain its overpowered, just get used to it, use it, learn to play around it.
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Winterless said:
Still confused how a broken item that permanently increases damage, has no negative aspect, breaks strafes, is only worth 15r, and destroys your opponent's armor twice as fast is not considered overpowered. The argument of "everyone should use it" is just stupid for obvious reasons, chief among them being that an unintended item causing a massive shift in meta for pvp proves my point that they are overpowered. The only way to counter an item shouldn't be to use that item back; that is the definition of unbalanced.
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Gotta agree with Winterless here. Its unintended, a glitch in Minecraft itself, uncounterable with no drawbacks, etc. The argument of "everyone should use it to counter it" is nonsensical when its clearly an exploit. That's like saying everyone should just use hacked clients to counter the hackers.
 
Lord_ArchAngel said:
I dont see whats wrong with overpowered debuffs, raw damage values. Its in one way or another, a part of the game and is open for everyone to use. Therefore why not take full advantage of whats available and use it. Rather than cater to the group of people that complain its overpowered, just get used to it, use it, learn to play around it.
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You're right.

I take back everything I said and instead think:
  1. Bring back speed 5 jump 5 vampires, since everyone can have them
  2. Add slowness 5 blindness 5 since everyone can have them
  3. Add sharp 50 axes, since everyone can have them
  4. Add 1.7 gapples, since everyone can have them
  5. Add thorns 30, since everyone can have them
See where this becomes an issue? If something is overpowered, you nerf it. It's not pandering to a minority, it's balancing the game.
 
Winterless said:
1. Debuffs and buffs have timers and thus are balanced. Thorns 5 is a PERMANENT damage increase with no drawbacks and makes it harder for people to get into pvp if they don't have a thorns vine.
2. Those items were never designed for that purpose, and have already been admitted to being an oversight by staff. Hell, people from your OWN DEPARTMENT have already said it was an oversight and wasn't as intended, and yet you still argue it. I'm genuinely perplexed.

Still confused how a broken item that permanently increases damage, has no negative aspect, breaks strafes, is only worth 15r, and destroys your opponent's armor twice as fast is not considered overpowered. The argument of "everyone should use it" is just stupid for obvious reasons, chief among them being that an unintended item causing a massive shift in meta for pvp proves my point that they are overpowered. The only way to counter an item shouldn't be to use that item back; that is the definition of unbalanced.
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Uh it's not permanent. If someone is using this on you in the factions worlds and you kill them, I'm fairly certain they drop it. Also that's not really a good argument about it affecting people coming into pvp because this is actually a much easier version of thorns to acquire for even a new player, as they don't have to enchant armor.


Also, Thorns V, I'm fairly certain according to the wiki, deals no more damage than any other thorns enchantment. It just has a higher chance to apply, and I've literally tested this before and had it deal half a heart to whoever was striking me, although the damage is variable.

I also really doubt this does much more damage to armor than axes. Thorns doesn't apply every strike, so it couldn't literally be twice as fast.

Also I don't think the meta of massive has shifted around this item at all, I think you fought someone using it and didn't like it, so you complained.

I can see why you might be upset with this, but I actually think this is good. Could perhaps be reduced in availability, but I don't think it should be removed.

I'd be really happy if we could use more lore items in alternative ways, or to get unique modifiers or abilities in the survival worlds.

Where's the real MAGIC items?
 
MorgothTheDark said:
I'd be really happy if we could use more lore items in alternative ways, or to get unique modifiers or abilities in the survival worlds.
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I could get behind this, some more off-hand modifier items would be interesting maybe, but not thorns 5. Nothing should be on that level. And it should be made through MassiveMagic's crafting if any more were added, not as a random quest reward that was unintentionally overpowered.

Stuff like slight speed perks or slight strength perks when holding items in the offhand would be kind of fun though, adds another less important "armor layer" to PVP. But like I said, nothing too powerful. Making them break when a player dies would be good too since they wont take durability damage, to prevent them from being inflated to the point that everyone has a million of each and they become worthless.
 
MorgothTheDark said:
Uh it's not permanent. If someone is using this on you in the factions worlds and you kill them, I'm fairly certain they drop it. Also that's not really a good argument about it affecting people coming into pvp because this is actually a much easier version of thorns to acquire for even a new player, as they don't have to enchant armor.


Also, Thorns V, I'm fairly certain according to the wiki, deals no more damage than any other thorns enchantment. It just has a higher chance to apply, and I've literally tested this before and had it deal half a heart to whoever was striking me, although the damage is variable.

I also really doubt this does much more damage to armor than axes. Thorns doesn't apply every strike, so it couldn't literally be twice as fast.

Also I don't think the meta of massive has shifted around this item at all, I think you fought someone using it and didn't like it, so you complained.

I can see why you might be upset with this, but I actually think this is good. Could perhaps be reduced in availability, but I don't think it should be removed.

I'd be really happy if we could use more lore items in alternative ways, or to get unique modifiers or abilities in the survival worlds.

Where's the real MAGIC items?
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The meta hasn't shifted? Explain to me then why entire PvP factions are using the item then.

And yes, it only increases your chance of getting Thorns, but since it's Thorns 5 it's by a drastic amount, and it still shifts the fight entirely in someone's favour with no drawback or counter.

"I can see why you might be upset with this, but I actually think this is good. Could perhaps be reduced in availability, but I don't think it should be removed."
Quite frankly, you think it is good because you can't win 1v1s based on skill, and you need crutches.
 
Winterless said:
The meta hasn't shifted? Explain to me then why entire PvP factions are using the item then.

And yes, it only increases your chance of getting Thorns, but since it's Thorns 5 it's by a drastic amount, and it still shifts the fight entirely in someone's favour with no drawback or counter.

"I can see why you might be upset with this, but I actually think this is good. Could perhaps be reduced in availability, but I don't think it should be removed."
Quite frankly, you think it is good because you can't win 1v1s based on skill, and you need crutches.
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I've yet to see an entire faction use this item, and even if you've seen a whole faction use it, I don't think that any one faction can define the meta unless they hold a large amount of the playerbase.

Actually that's not at all why I want it to remain. I've only used this to kill one person in a 1v1, so I'm not even sure where you got that from. So unless they said something to you about it, which wouldn't surprise me considering how much of a little diva he acts like, then you're literally talking out of your ass.


I want it to remain because I like novelty, and I like it as a feature. I wish more lore items had impactful modifiers in factions.

If I was fighting someone and they used an item on me that I didn't have or know about previously, I wouldn't say that they were less skilled than me, even if I could kill them without them using the item. I would find it amusing they found a novel way to fight outside of the rigid "vanilla pot pvp" that is prone to elitist with low ping, high cps (possibly even macros, some of u are fishy af), and some experience with PvP of that nature. I would also learn something from the experience. Which is always nice.

That's how you beat some people. Some people simply have better PCs, better connections, higher cps, or are simply more skilled than you at the core mechanics of PvP in conjunction with the other modifiers, making them extremely hard to kill if not impossible.

Also, I don't believe every fight should be a result of pure skill, and not every fight at current is. There's a myriad of variables that could influence the outcome of a fight, such as gear being used, number of competitors on each side, potions that are in use, etc.


At the end of the day you're sitting in front of a screen mashing keys and timing things correctly, while simultaneously attempting to upgrade your hardware and connection in a meaningful way so as to help you more efficiently mash keys and time potions/strikes.


Very, very impressive.



I can win 1v1s based on skill. If I am of the higher skill level, or if other contributing variables align. Whether that means I can land more hits, avoid more hits, or use tools you weren't smart enough to use, it's all conscious decision, and I would argue that it contributes to skill.

You seem have a very ego driven definition of what it means to be skilled at this game, and consequently a very narrow view of the myriad of possibilities which could and should apply to PvP outside of the very basic concepts such as strafing, block hitting, and player count. Basically, you're the sort of person who thinks your way is the right way (because it works well for you, and you don't want that to change), and any other way is illegitimate or inferior, especially one that threatens the security of your way.


That's not a crutch. It's a tool. Your perception is flawed, and therefore your observation is inherently false.
 
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MorgothTheDark said:
I've yet to see an entire faction use this item, and even if you've seen a whole faction use it, I don't think that any one faction can define the meta unless they hold a large amount of the playerbase.

Actually that's not at all why I want it to remain. I've only used this to kill one person in a 1v1, so I'm not even sure where you got that from. So unless they said something to you about it, which wouldn't surprise me considering how much of a little diva he acts like, then you're literally talking out of your love.


I want it to remain because I like novelty, and I like it as a feature. I wish more lore items had impactful modifiers in factions.

If I was fighting someone and they used an item on me that I didn't have or know about previously, I wouldn't say that they were less skilled than me, even if I could kill them without them using the item. I would find it amusing they found a novel way to fight outside of the rigid "vanilla pot pvp" that is prone to elitist with low ping, high cps (possibly even macros, some of u are fishy af), and some experience with PvP of that nature. I would also learn something from the experience. Which is always nice.

That's how you beat some people. Some people simply have better PCs, better connections, higher cps, or are simply more skilled than you at the core mechanics of PvP in conjunction with the other modifiers, making them extremely hard to kill if not impossible.

Also, I don't believe every fight should be a result of pure skill, and not every fight at current is. There's a myriad of variables that could influence the outcome of a fight, such as gear being used, number of competitors on each side, potions that are in use, etc.


At the end of the day you're sitting in front of a screen mashing keys and timing things correctly, while simultaneously attempting to upgrade your hardware and connection in a meaningful way so as to help you more efficiently mash keys and time potions/strikes.


Very, very impressive.



I can win 1v1s based on skill. If I am of the higher skill level, or if other contributing variables align. Whether that means I can land more hits, avoid more hits, or use tools you weren't smart enough to use, it's all conscious decision, and I would argue that it contributes to skill.

You seem have a very ego driven definition of what it means to be skilled at this game, and consequently a very narrow view of the myriad of possibilities which could and should apply to PvP outside of the very basic concepts such as strafing, block hitting, and player count. Basically, you're the sort of person who thinks your way is the right way (because it works well for you, and you don't want that to change), and any other way is illegitimate or inferior, especially one that threatens the security of your way.


That's not a crutch. It's a tool. Your perception is flawed, and therefore your observation is inherently false.
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dude you're literally arguing that using a bug to do more damage should be preferred over the actual skill involved in the game

also knows about it now, so there goes your argument about being smart

also don't try to hackusate to help your argument, you just look like an idiot
 
65jes89 said:
dude you're literally arguing that using a bug to do more damage should be preferred over the actual skill involved in the game

also knows about it now, so there goes your argument about being smart

also don't try to hackusate to help your argument, you just look like an idiot
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No I am arguing that this should be kept, and that more items like this should be introduced. Perhaps this single item could be rebalanced, but I don't think it should be removed from the game entirely.

The main problem with this item, if any, is that it should be rarer and perhaps the thorns could be reduced to IV or III. I do not feel like the item should be deleted, nor should its off hand function be eliminated.


This has nothing to do with skill to be honest, unless you consider it a skill to use an item your opponent is not. The reason that was introduced into this conversation was because of the person on the receiving end of the item complaining that it made their "apparent" skill advantage inconsequential, simply because of the use of the item by their opponent.

That's saying "I think I should be able to kill you, you are less skilled than I am. Yet, because you are using this item, my skill gap is so severely made useless that the item must simply be removed because it is an unstoppable obstacle to a skill driven atmosphere in which I presuppose to be better than you. I deserve to win, and you do not deserve to win for having used this item, therefore this item should be removed."

So either he died from someone using this item, while he wasn't, or he has been around PvP where the item was being used and thought it was unfair.


That's one individual thought on the matter. I don't see how breaking strafes (which was a horrible example tbh) is a reduction of skill, but I do see how using an item that helps you eliminate your opponent more efficiently is an increase in skill.

It's completely erroneous to say that using an item that provides a positive increase to the result you desire decreases the skill of either the user or the person on which it is being used, especially if the item is readily available.


It doesn't decrease the skill of a player, it increases the chances of winning a fight if you are using an item that your opponent is not. If you are fighting someone so severely under-skilled as to be useless, then you would, if proficiently skilled, obliterate them regardless of them holding the item in their offhand.

The realistic situation is that combatants of similar skill levels using this item will find a situation in which the one using the item will favor, and the one not using the item will not favor. I think that's more what's occurred.

This is inherently true of the Thorns enchantment itself. It's just not frequently ran on Massive due to the fact that its pretty damn expensive to make, and virtually impossible to maintain for a lengthy amount of time.



That wasn't the point of what I was trying to say. It's not about being smart. It's about adaptation and variability. I like this because it provides novelty. I like more player choice in everything, including PvP.


I wasn't speaking about Winterless in particular when I mentioned macros either.
 
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MorgothTheDark said:
No I am arguing that this should be kept, and that more items like this should be introduced. Perhaps this single item could be rebalanced, but I don't think it should be removed from the game entirely.

The main problem with this item, if any, is that it should be rarer and perhaps the thorns could be reduced to IV or III. I do not feel like the item should be deleted, nor should its off hand function be eliminated.


This has nothing to do with skill to be honest, unless you consider it a skill to use an item your opponent is not. The reason that was introduced into this conversation was because of the person on the receiving end of the item complaining that it made their "apparent" skill advantage inconsequential, simply because of the use of the item by their opponent.

That's saying "I think I should be able to kill you, you are less skilled than I am. Yet, because you are using this item, my skill gap is so severely made useless that the item must simply be removed because it is an unstoppable obstacle to a skill driven atmosphere in which I presuppose to be better than you. I deserve to win, and you do not deserve to win for having used this item, therefore this item should be removed."

So either he died from someone using this item, while he wasn't, or he has been around PvP where the item was being used and thought it was unfair.


That's one individual thought on the matter. I don't see how breaking strafes (which was a horrible example tbh) is a reduction of skill, but I do see how using an item that helps you eliminate your opponent more efficiently is an increase in skill.

It's completely erroneous to say that using an item that provides a positive increase to the result you desire decreases the skill of either the user or the person on which it is being used, especially if the item is readily available.


It doesn't decrease the skill of a player, it increases the chances of winning a fight if you are using an item that your opponent is not. If you are fighting someone so severely under-skilled as to be useless, then you would, if proficiently skilled, obliterate them regardless of them holding the item in their offhand.

The realistic situation is that combatants of similar skill levels using this item will find a situation in which the one using the item will favor, and the one not using the item will not favor. I think that's more what's occurred.

This is inherently true of the Thorns enchantment itself. It's just not frequently ran on Massive.


That's besides the point though.

That wasn't the point of what I was trying to say. It's not about being smart. It's about adaptation and variability. I like this because it provides novelty. I like more player choice in everything, including PvP.


I wasn't speaking about Winterless in particular when I mentioned macros.
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Again, you're misconstruing what I was saying. I am saying that your repeated bleating to keep this item in the game demonstrates your own individual lack of skill.

"I think I should be able to kill you, you are less skilled than I am"
Um, yes. That's how it works. The person who is less skilled will lose, 9/10 times. I don't even care that the item provides an opportunity to lessen the skill gap, I care that there is literally no way to counter it other than to use it in response.

"I deserve to win, and you do not deserve to win for having used this item, therefore this item should be removed."
Never said I should deserve to win for being more skilled, but it should certainly tip the scales in my favour. What this item does is add a variable into PvP that is unable to be countered and blatantly broken, that has no reliance on skill or any sort of PvP ability other than simply putting it on and gaining free damage forever without any drawback. That's like having permanent Strength 2 ALL the time with no drawback, although much less powerful. There is simply nothing you can do against this item, other than trapping or using it yourself.

"It's completely erroneous to say that using an item that provides a positive increase to the result you desire decreases the skill of either the user or the person on which it is being used, especially if the item is readily available."
Didn't say it did. It does, however, demonstrate your cowardice and inability to actually get better at PvP itself, relying on free damage boosters

"It doesn't decrease the skill of a player, it increases the chances of winning a fight if you are using an item that your opponent is not."
Again, an item that has no drawbacks, no penalties, and absolutely no counter. And it isn't a small advantage either. It's actually pretty massive, especially if you stack it with other thorns items. I found this today when I was EASILY able to kill someone when they weren't using it, killing them in less than a minute, whereas when I fought them WITH thorns, they almost killed me several times and were dealing severely more damage than me. I was only able to win because I broke their Thorns pants.

"The realistic situation is that combatants of similar skill levels using this item will find a situation in which the one using the item will favor, and the one not using the item will not favor."
>Implying that the item has the ability to totally tip a fight in someone's favour using a factor that isn't down to skill or luck, proving my point about the item.

Other items that could give this advantage, such as gapples, res pots, bows, etc. all have drawbacks, timers, or counters. This item does not. I shouldn't have to explain the dictionary definition of unbalanced to you.
 
MorgothTheDark said:
This is inherently true of the Thorns enchantment itself. It's just not frequently ran on Massive due to the fact that its pretty damn expensive to make, and virtually impossible to maintain for a lengthy amount of time.
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No lol it has nothing to do with cost. Every rich pvper and their mother has plenty of thorns, it's not used because it was agreed not to be used ~a year ago, because it makes it impossible to catch someone, since thorns applies knockback. Also screws up strafing and is a general annoyance because it makes it harder to combo, due to the knockback effect.


You're ignoring the fact that everyone can use this. It has literally nothing to do with adaptation or whatever adjective you want to use instead. Everyone will use it. That's the way it works. And so, instead of adding whatever you think it adds, we just get a bunch of people using thorns again, a meta which most the majority of the player base does not want, for reasons outlined above. It has literally nothing to do with me not wanting variety or whatever, it has to do with not wanting more thorns in the meta. I dislike the whole idea of adding more items like this, but that's not what the OP is about. Make another thread if that's what you're interested in.

MorgothTheDark said:
It's not about being smart
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MorgothTheDark said:
you weren't smart enough to use
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MorgothTheDark said:
I wasn't speaking about Winterless in particular when I mentioned macros either.
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I don't care, unrelated to the OP.

MorgothTheDark said:
I think I should be able to kill you, you are less skilled than I am.
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Yes.
MorgothTheDark said:
Yet, because you are using this item, my skill gap is so severely made useless that the item must simply be removed because it is an unstoppable obstacle to a skill driven atmosphere in which I presuppose to be better than you
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No, thorns is obnoxious and can be used by everyone. It's more or less the same as if someone was using an item that applied slowness to everyone who hit them.
MorgothTheDark said:
I deserve to win, and you do not deserve to win for having used this item, therefore this item should be removed."
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Except, again, both people will use the item, and so it will just end up being a thorns meta again.
 
Maytee said:
why don't we remove GoGo Juice, the whacky Strength 4 Hollandt use
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Whoever told you that Hollandt uses strength 4 needs to accept the fact that they can be beaten without it. Accept the fact that we can combo, rather than claiming we use strength 4 pots, claiming that we are alts of old PvP'ers and claiming that we use hacks. Whoever began saying this, you can be beaten, anyone can be beaten, acceptance is the first step to improvement.

Nerds
 
Winterless said:
(Citation Needed)

Also interesting to note that that rumour started WAY before Rokau was even in Hollandt
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The rumor didn't even start because IT IS A FACT, I dont know what the big deal is. It's a real potion, that's it lmao. I've experimented with it and tested it, I'll show you a screenshot when I get back from vacation.
 
Hubrecht said:
Whoever told you that Hollandt uses strength 4 needs to accept the fact that they can be beaten without it. Accept the fact that we can combo, rather than claiming we use strength 4 pots, claiming that we are alts of old PvP'ers and claiming that we use hacks. Whoever began saying this, you can be beaten, anyone can be beaten, acceptance is the first step to improvement.

Nerds
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xd
 
My little 4v1 incident was a series of 1v1s and singling out of ppl. I personally got baited into the water. It's not really that different at all
 
We have disabled thorns in the KitPvP and KoTH worlds but determined disabling the enchant in factions worlds was overkill. We (rank 3 game) can always temporarily confiscate thorns lore items from players and simply remove the thorns enchant from the item, but we do not wish to disable the enchant from regular armor.
 
Omnomivore said:
We have disabled thorns in the KitPvP and KoTH worlds but determined disabling the enchant in factions worlds was overkill. We (rank 3 game) can always temporarily confiscate thorns lore items from players and simply remove the thorns enchant from the item, but we do not wish to disable the enchant from regular armor.
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Yea orelse how will noobs defend if staff disable all forma of defense just because some entitled pvper doesnt like losing to thorns or debuff
 
Sir_Daragon said:
Yea orelse how will noobs defend if staff disable all forma of defense just because some entitled pvper doesnt like losing to thorns or debuff
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They could actually learn to pvp? Or actually be smart and use tactics or good base design like cannons? Damn it's almost like massive is full of children that need broken items to be go- oh wait, that's EXACTLY what massive pvp is. Can't beat someone in a raid? Hackusate them and slander them with memes. Can't beat someone in CoK? Sabotage their entire faction and cripple them for several days as they try to reset their portals. Can't win a 1v1? Use a broken item that should never have been in the game to begin with
 
grizenator said:
My little 4v1 incident was a series of 1v1s and singling out of ppl. I personally got baited into the water. It's not really that different at all
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Nope, it was you 4v1ing a person for several minutes in and out of the city, to which your crew had the awesome idea to run into skullsplit, chase in water and die, even though this person had no health or buffs anymore

They're pretty different fam
 
Winterless said:
They could actually learn to pvp? Or actually be smart and use tactics or good base design like cannons? Damn it's almost like massive is full of children that need broken items to be go- oh wait, that's EXACTLY what massive pvp is. Can't beat someone in a raid? Hackusate them and slander them with memes. Can't beat someone in CoK? Sabotage their entire faction and cripple them for several days as they try to reset their portals. Can't win a 1v1? Use a broken item that should never have been in the game to begin with
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Isn't that what you do on the daily
 
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