Archived Remove Thorns 5 Items (vine, Clock Etc.)

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A single Thorns 5 item isn't any worse than a full set of Thorns armor. If you want to remove all special items that give boosts why don't we remove GoGo Juice, the whacky Strength 4 Hollandt use, Boomstick's, Frost-walker boots, de-buff potions, and mending items? They're rare items for a reason, using them in a fight is as risky as using your favorite weapon.
 
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Maytee said:
A single Thorns 5 item isn't any worse than a full set of Thorns armor. If you want to remove all special items that give boosts why don't we remove GoGo Juice, the whacky Strength 4 Hollandt use, Boomstick's, Frost-walker boots, de-buff potions, and mending items? They're rare items for a reason, using them in a fight is as risky as using your favorite weapon.
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Except, they're not rare. I know of people who have died several times and dropped them each and every time.

A full set of thorns armour is able to be countered because armour breaks. Thorns 5 vines do not. If they were actually rare items and not literally a quest reward (see fake unionist pendant) then maybe, but the fact is they are readily available.
 
Winterless said:
Except, they're not rare. I know of people who have died several times and dropped them each and every time.

A full set of thorns armour is able to be countered because armour breaks. Thorns 5 vines do not. If they were actually rare items and not literally a quest reward (see fake unionist pendant) then maybe, but the fact is they are readily available.
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Then fix the quest, removing the items from players who use them because they give an advantage is just silly. If it's such a big deal then don't fight the player, or kill them for it.
 
Maytee said:
Then fix the quest, removing the items from players who use them because they give an advantage is just silly. I distinctly remember you not caring about Viscar using the Thorns lore when the fight was against Valorian. If it's really such a big deal then don't fight the player.
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Maybe removing the item is too harsh, but regardless there needs to be a way to make it rare. It's way too common for how much of an advantage it confers.

"If it's really such a big deal then don't fight the player."
Ah, yes. Jeopardise PvP for the sake of personal entertainment and a feeling of being special and powerful with your Thorns 5 broken item.

Classic Valorian
 
Winterless said:
Maybe removing the item is too harsh, but regardless there needs to be a way to make it rare. It's way too common for how much of an advantage it confers.

"If it's really such a big deal then don't fight the player."
Ah, yes. Jeopardise PvP for the sake of personal entertainment and a feeling of being special and powerful with your Thorns 5 broken item.

Classic Valorian
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Ahh... the good ole' switcheroo!

"It's okay to use Thorns, as long as we're the only ones using it! If anyone else uses it we can blame them for ruining the server!"

Seriously, just ask for the Quest to be changed and don't get started with this crap.
 
Maytee said:
Ahh... the good ole' switcheroo!

"It's okay to use Thorns, as long as we're the only ones using it! If anyone else uses it we can blame them for ruining the server!"

Seriously, just ask for the Quest to be changed and don't get started with this crap.
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1. I've never used Thorns 5
2. I told people in my faction not to use it, as did Toku
3. You were the original users of it
4. Considering how many times we've killed people using the item in your faction, it's likely that you hold a whole bunch of the item and only want the quest to be removed so that you can monopolise it and sell them at ridiculous prices, or get a ridiculous advantage in PvP.
 
Maytee said:
So are we balancing PvP or am I going to destroy the economy with my 900r faction bank and terrorize the server with Lore items that everyone has?
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Unlikely that you'll destroy the economy, you'll just make a shiteton of money off a broken lore item that gives you advantages in PvP.

I find it unlikely that everyone has this lore item tbh, the only person I've seen give or receive any has been NdFeb.

And yes, this is about balancing PvP. It's a broken item plain and simple that has literally no drawback to using
 
I don't really think this is a bad feature.

In fact I wish we had MORE off hand modifiers to use.


I vote no removal.

Either get the items yourself (I have like 4-5 off hand items with thorns ((and I could easily get more, so can you)) ) or adapt to the pvp strategy and find a way to counter it.

It's really not a big deal.

Besides, thorns V on an off hand item only increases the chance you will get struck by the thorns, it doesn't increase the dmg of the thorns themselves.

The only real benefit is that you don't take durability dmg on armor and that its more easy to get than Thorns III enchantments.


I don't really think its that cancerous and I've fought with and against it.
 
MorgothTheDark said:
I don't really think this is a bad feature.

In fact I wish we had MORE off hand modifiers to use.


I vote no removal.

Either get the items yourself (I have like 4-5 off hand items with thorns ((and I could easily get more, so can you)) ) or adapt to the pvp strategy and find a way to counter it.

It's really not a big deal.

Besides, thorns V on an off hand item only increases the chance you will get struck by the thorns, it doesn't increase the dmg of the thorns themselves.

The only real benefit is that you don't take durability dmg on armor and that its more easy to get than Thorns III enchantments.


I don't really think its that cancerous and I've fought with and against it.
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1. There is no way to counter it. Thorns is balanced because of armour durability, which ceases to be a factor when you're talking about a bloody vine. In addition to this, thorns absolutely destroys your armour, so not only are they doing more damage with no drawback, breaking your strafes and comboes, they are also destroying your armour and forcing you to repair it after a single fight. AND, if they lose it, it's no biggie because they can just get another one for cheap. How is this not broken again?
2. This is still an advantage, a huge one if stacked with thorns armour to boot, which basically REWARDS you for being bad and not being able to land hits.
 
Winterless said:
Unlikely that you'll destroy the economy, you'll just make a shiteton of money off a broken lore item that gives you advantages in PvP.

I find it unlikely that everyone has this lore item tbh, the only person I've seen give or receive any has been NdFeb.

And yes, this is about balancing PvP. It's a broken item plain and simple that has literally no drawback to using
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Winterless said:
Except, they're not rare. I know of people who have died several times and dropped them each and every time.
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When you kill someone 5 times for an item, it's not rare.

Unless you mean to say that Ndfeb is duping a rare item

(btw, it isn't rare at all. Genecide has 40 in his storage)

So either way, you lose on that point bud
 
If its all that annoying perhaps you should tell your members not to sell them to me for 15r a piece
 
Winterless said:
When you kill someone 5 times for an item, it's not rare.

Unless you mean to say that Ndfeb is duping a rare item

(btw, it isn't rare at all. Genecide has 40 in his storage)

So either way, you lose on that point bud
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The entire "point" is that it's hard to hold a monopoly on an item that everyone has, lol.
Winterless said:
4. Considering how many times we've killed people using the item in your faction, it's likely that you hold a whole bunch of the item and only want the quest to be removed so that you can monopolise it and sell them at ridiculous prices, or get a ridiculous advantage in PvP.
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Honestly I fail to see why it's not considered abusing a bug in minecraft to use thorns like that.

Thorns in general should be removed, offhand thorns definitely need to be either removed completely or considered abusing bugs and have bans given out for.
 
The Thorn V reward from the Faith quest was an oversight. The quest was already fixed early on shortly after it was released.

As far as Quest rewards goes, previously most Quest staff were roleplayers who were not too familiar with Survival or Factions, but now the department has become more diverse with Faction players and Survivalists so we're always looking out to make sure rewards are properly balanced. I personally put a lot of thought into determining rewards from my Quests, as well as getting into contact with Game staff for feedback.
 
65jes89 said:
Honestly I fail to see why it's not considered abusing a bug in minecraft to use thorns like that.

Thorns in general should be removed, offhand thorns definitely need to be either removed completely or considered abusing bugs and have bans given out for.
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Off-hand slots are a feature that have been around since 1.9, banning players for something that's not even a glitch is definitely extreme.
 
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Maytee said:
Off-hand slots are a feature that have been around since 1.12, banning players for something that's not even a glitch is definitely extreme.
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1.9. And it's obvious that the items were not intended to be used that way, making it a bug. I'm not advocating straight for bans, warnings first are great. It should be against the rules, though. Same thing as the sharp 3/4 bug that happened a couple years ago.
 
If this gets removed

Then those strength 4 pots need to be removed as well.


As far as I know no one else can get anything stronger than go go juice, yet everyone can basically access the lore items.


If no one, aside from the person who has the S4 pots can get them, then they certainly need to be removed as they pose a far greater threat to balance than thorns.

And hell, we may as well go ahead and remove go go too.



Why not?

Its a super strong item (much stronger than these thorns items, and rarer) with no counter and it takes away your precious "skill" from the equation of a fight.



Let's go ahead and just delete gapples too.

No need for them, bad for skill.


The only thing that can determine a fight is who has more skill, remember?


Oh and bows, let's get rid of those, because some people are more skilled with them than others.


And thorns, lets just remove it entirely, its so bad for pvp when you can lose a fight that someone else outgeared you in. I mean, you lose! Or have a greater chance of losing, even though you're some kind of supreme pvp god, can't have that!

Not who brings the better items, even though I'd consider that outsmarting your opponent, or skill, but what do I know?


Oh, and let's finally get rid of people outnumbering you in raids. That REALLY takes away from the skill component of the server's pvp. Ban it!
 
MorgothTheDark said:
If this gets removed

Then those strength 4 pots need to be removed as well.


As far as I know no one else can get anything stronger than go go juice, yet everyone can basically access the lore items.


If no one, aside from the person who has the S4 pots can get them, then they certainly need to be removed as they pose a far greater threat to balance than thorns.

And hell, we may as well go ahead and remove go go too.



Why not?

Its a super strong item (much stronger than these thorns items, and rarer) with no counter and it takes away your precious "skill" from the equation of a fight.
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Potions are a one time thing; you use them, get the effect for a minute or two, and they're gone forever. Additionally, gogo juice is a reward from KoTH, which involves "skill" to get. Not doing some quest and getting an item that will be around forever.

I do agree that lore items that give strength 4 or whatever should be removed if they were not intended for combat, but from my experience they're not nearly as commonplace on massive as thorns and so don't really need to be made a priority.
 
65jes89 said:
1.9. And it's obvious that the items were not intended to be used that way, making it a bug. I'm not advocating straight for bans, warnings first are great. It should be against the rules, though. Same thing as the sharp 3/4 bug that happened a couple years ago.
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Except the sharpness 3 issue was an actual server bug and Lore items with high level enchantments have been handed out for years.

Regardless the items have been labeled as an oversight and punishing players for using them is silly.
 
Maytee said:
Except the sharpness 3 issue was an actual server bug and Lore items with high level enchantments have been handed out for years.
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I've never seen these items used this way until relatively recently. These items were made with the intention that thorns would be an unusable enchantment, much like putting power on a sword. Thorns was intended by Mojang to be put only on armor. The offhand slot just for whatever reason was coded in a way that allowed for thorns to be usable; this isn't a problem in vanilla MC. However, the mixing of these two harmless things together created an unintended consequence, i.e. a bug.
 
65jes89 said:
I've never seen these items used this way until relatively recently. These items were made with the intention that thorns would be an unusable enchantment, much like putting power on a sword. Thorns was intended by Mojang to be put only on armor. The offhand slot just for whatever reason was coded in a way that allowed for thorns to be usable; this isn't a problem in vanilla MC. However, the mixing of these two harmless things together created an unintended consequence, i.e. a bug.
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Sticks are used for crafting yet Boomstick's have Knockback 5, it's not a vanilla mechanic but it's a mechanic none-the-less that is used on Massive Craft.
 
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Maytee said:
Sticks are used for crafting yet Boomstick's have Knockback 5, it's not a vanilla mechanic but it's a mechanic none-the-less that is used on Massive Craft.
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Difference is that everyone knew what putting knockback 5 on a stick was going to do, and thas was the intended purpose. And not sure that that's the best example considering how obnoxious boom sticks are.
 
65jes89 said:
Difference is that everyone knew what putting knockback 5 on a stick was going to do, and thas was the intended purpose. And not sure that that's the best example considering how obnoxious boom sticks are.
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That's why it was declared a staff oversight. Not understanding how off-hand slots work shouldn't justify punishing someone.
 
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Maytee said:
That's why it was declared a staff oversight. Not understanding how off-hand slots work shouldn't justify punishing someone.
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...Make an announcement, give warnings. If it's clear that it's against the rules, there's no reason not to punish them. It's not like people are just going to "accidentally" go around pvping with thorns 5 items in the offhand. It's not like I'm saying anyone caught with a thorns 5 item should be immediately no appeal banned.
 
Is PVP flag active when being hit by somebody still a thing? I haven't pvped in a while so I don't really know. I just remember in the old system one of the biggest reasons we didn't use thorns is because it could proc pvp active even if you were running away and not fighting but someone was chasing and hitting you.

Even then I don't remember thorns being OP enough on armor to use it even if you were ok with the risk of getting pvp active proced when you didn't want it. Really I'm just curious if thorns is relevant enough in the current meta to justify using it on armor if using it in the offhand was disabled.
 
Thorns is an aspect of pvp. Cancerous or not to certain people, get used to it.
 
While I agree that Thorns V items are very powerful, and definitely their effects being applied when on the offhand is a bug, I'm going to be the spoil-sport by pointing out that even if people only have access to Thorns on armor, the Armor still gives the effect when held in the off-hand, and takes no durability damage. So there is really no way to protect against this without removing Thorns, which I think is a bad idea.

Regardless, people need to chill above. Survival wonders why people think they are salty and such then goes on to have arguments and calling each other out in threads like this in random sections. Take the issues private or if you think it really is glitch abuse take that up with Staff not in some random Feature/Idea thread.
 
Lord_ArchAngel said:
Thorns is an aspect of pvp. Cancerous or not to certain people, get used to it.
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lol what no that's a terrible argument

Raw damage values from vanilla pvp is an aspect of pvp. Cancerous or not to certain people, get used to it.

Terribly overpowered debuffs is an aspect of pvp. Cancerous or not to certain people, get used to it.

Also, um, it's really not part of pvp, vanilla, massive, or otherwise. You can't even get thorns that high in vanilla, nor on a non-armor item.

It's annoying, overpowered, and unintentional. The argument that thorns shouldn't be removed just because it's a perceived "aspect of pvp" is absurd.
 
MorgothTheDark said:
If this gets removed

Then those strength 4 pots need to be removed as well.


As far as I know no one else can get anything stronger than go go juice, yet everyone can basically access the lore items.


If no one, aside from the person who has the S4 pots can get them, then they certainly need to be removed as they pose a far greater threat to balance than thorns.

And hell, we may as well go ahead and remove go go too.



Why not?

Its a super strong item (much stronger than these thorns items, and rarer) with no counter and it takes away your precious "skill" from the equation of a fight.



Let's go ahead and just delete gapples too.

No need for them, bad for skill.


The only thing that can determine a fight is who has more skill, remember?


Oh and bows, let's get rid of those, because some people are more skilled with them than others.


And thorns, lets just remove it entirely, its so bad for pvp when you can lose a fight that someone else outgeared you in. I mean, you lose! Or have a greater chance of losing, even though you're some kind of supreme pvp god, can't have that!

Not who brings the better items, even though I'd consider that outsmarting your opponent, or skill, but what do I know?


Oh, and let's finally get rid of people outnumbering you in raids. That REALLY takes away from the skill component of the server's pvp. Ban it!
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1. I agree that people shouldn't have as much Strength 4 as people are alleging, but that is a potion that can only be used once for like 3 minutes and then it's gone. Not the same as an item that you can use forever with no drawbacks.
2. Same story with gapples. Thing with gapples is, they're readily available, not that powerful, and a purposeful in-game mechanic.
3. By that logic, we should remove swords as well. No one argued removing things because people were better than others at it. That's the biggest straw-man I've read all week.
4. Never said we should remove thorns, I said we should remove items with thorns 5 on them.

There's a difference between outsmarting your opponent and using a blatantly broken item that borders on abuse of a glitch. I could argue the exact same thing by saying "I wasn't using KillAura and AntiKnockback, I just outsmarted you deal with it xdddd"
 
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