Archived Reinstate Theft Rules

[falconhand]

Well. This is going to be a fun topic. Let's keep the comments non-flamey <3.

I feel that theft rules should be reimplemented because *certain players* have been flat out lying and/or worming their way into various factions simply to harm their game play experience. Not out of spite for a previous offense, but simply to make the persons life more difficult. This is not conducive to a fun time on MassiveCraft. I haven't been hit with this (That is not an invitation) therefore it isn't coming out of retaliation or anger.

Counterpoint: Theft is medieval! It's your problem to manage perms! This is valid, BUT when someone's gameplay is ruined because someone's a dick, it does not help MassiveCraft as a whole, no matter how medieval it might be.

I personally feel that this rule is a hold over from Old Massive, where everyone was rich enough and everything was commonplace enough that if your whole vault got looted, you could be on your feet again in literally minutes. Things are harder post-reset, which is good, as it gives everyone things to do. For that reason, theft should be made illegal once again, since everyone is far more invested in their gameplay versus the old server.

Discuss.

 

[Nathan]

I agree

 

[Jackalop3]

Yes the theft has made recruitment a bit more difficult in finding out who I can and can not trust. Although I do hope the rules will be abolished later on, something needs to be put into place in order to keep our invested players active and less worrisome if there members are just petty thieves

 

[MyCatBubbles]

Damn you I legit just started making a thread talking about this.

Although I find it really odd how players get banned for stealing a singular enchanting tablebecause they mined it out of their enchanting room cough @Genecide65 but others can get away with stealing numerous diamond blocks because they never mined it out of the ground and instead took it out of the factions vault. These quasi rules really do hinder massives community as players always have to wonder 'ay am i gonna get banned for doing this it seems harmless'. Its honestly pathetic and its no way to run things. Rules should be crystal clear and defined for everyone to make sure that people know their boundaries and to not accidentally cross them.

 

[Cae_22]

I agree to an extent, although I feel as though things such as breaking valuable blocks in enemy territory because they do not have perms set is more of the enemies fault and said person breaking the blocks should not be held accountable for the irresponsibility of the enemy faction. However joining or leaving a faction purely because you want to damage them with mass theft should be illegal since it is only toxic and damaging to the server itself, not to mention what @Jackalop3 just said with it damaging recruitment efforts.

 

[Jackalop3]

Rules should be crystal clear and defined for everyone to make sure that people know their boundaries and to not accidentally cross them.

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Agreed, there shouldn't be any worry on if something is considered banable or not, us players need to be able to understand the rules in order to play the game and have fun with it

 

[MyCatBubbles]

Agreed, there shouldn't be any worry on if something is considered bankable or not, us players need to be able to understand the rules in order to play the game and have fun

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You're right, theres so many quasi rules that me and numerous people have gotten in crap from before that if there was any way I could just volunteer to be a shepherd for the rule list and nurture it into this completely crystal clear, defined page that everyone understands I'd do it in a heartbeat. Simply saying 'but players just have to run off common sense' is a dead argument. Everyone's 'common sense' varies, all you have to do is go and talk with other people/players and you'll realize that instantly.

 

[Jackalop3]

Yes it's always been tiresome to walk on eggshells with every little thing I do that could be considered controversial. It has become such a pain to have to either msg staff to interpret a rule or to ask in the help channel, and really most of it is largely opinionated on how the rule works. So if we could have some rules firmly set in stone, that would make everyone's lives so much easier.

 

[Lyee]

I agree- but only to an extent, and here's why:

Since it is a medieval world, it would make sense that crime would be a possible thing. It would make it more immersive to have the chance of things going missing and people becoming wanted and whatnot. Right? Well, no, not really. Not with the way Massive is set up anyway. See, normally you would at least be able to get the stuff back, but with land claims the thief can make that impossible. If people were to get their army and alliance to fight against the thief, that'd be a different story, but not only does that never happen, it can't always work (again due to land claims).

If the faction claim thing wasn't an issue then, well... this wouldn't really be as much of an issue and could instead be a fun gameplay feature. However, I don't see any way to fix it, and thus a rule should be made against it.
Bringing up that everyone isn't rich anymore is a good point, and one I think certainly should be remembered. Thieving causes a lot more damage than it used to, and can completely destroy a player (not that it couldn't before). As mentioned in the original post, replacing what you lost is WAY harder than before, and could even be near impossible.
With ban records cleared, and everyone focused on the new start, recognizing thieves is also a lot harder. Most people simply need more people in their faction, and having to trust that they won't steal all your stuff is just another hurtle to this rough new world.

Basically: Make theft illegal for now, but maybe bring it back after factions has developed more. As it stands, not many people can really afford to deal with it.

 

[grizenator]

Cut their hands off.

 

[VonZane]

When I first heard about the theft amendment after the reset, I caught myself only allowing officers to have chest access. I think what it comes down to is trusting your members enough to let them have chest perms. If you're so paranoid over theft, lock your chests with valuables in it and only allow officers to access them. My members do have chest perms, but I still routinely go over them with the Hawkeye tool after I get a new recruit. I think when the "lets go start a faction on our own. It's free after all" trend passes, and people start becoming more loyal to the factions they are in, I wouldn't worry about the theft laws as much. I do, however, prefer having the backup of going to a mod if someone ever did steal from the faction (as unlikely as it may seem). I support the reintroduction of the theft laws, but it's not on my high list of things I would like the server to amend.

 

[CnocBride]

I can't really reply in full to this but mass theft, to put it lightly, is an absolute pain to deal with. Micro mass theft could be easily dealt with by use of HawkEye logs and all that, but when it gets to the scale of stealing entire storages, that is a pain. It requires hours upon hours of chasing down people who stole the stuff, what stuff was taken, where is that stuff now, how do we return that stuff and how do we punish the person.

Secondly, I think it really should be a factions responsibility to ensure all of its items are secured and they trust the people with them. If recruitment is hard, do what a lot of factions do and essentially lock down the recruit rank, so that they can only access certain chunks, then get them to prove themselves as worthy members of your faction. Really, I think this adds another layer to the game, brings us closer to survival realism and creates a more original Minecraftian gameplay.

 

[FireFan96]

I'm with those who put emphasis on faction perms and locks.

I'm extremely paranoid about who I let in my faction. I already broke my own holy rule by allowing allies to tp to my f home and (gasp) actually open a few of my locked doors.

But, I also have my storage locked behind doors only I alone can open, in chests only I have access to. These safety precautions allow me to be more open in my faction, while still protecting what crap I have lying around.

Also repair grinding really helps out since all my valuables go to the anvil gods ecksdee

 

[SubscriptShark]

I can't really reply in full to this but mass theft, to put it lightly, is an absolute pain to deal with. Micro mass theft could be easily dealt with by use of HawkEye logs and all that, but when it gets to the scale of stealing entire storages, that is a pain. It requires hours upon hours of chasing down people who stole the stuff, what stuff was taken, where is that stuff now, how do we return that stuff and how do we punish the person.

Secondly, I think it really should be a factions responsibility to ensure all of its items are secured and they trust the people with them. If recruitment is hard, do what a lot of factions do and essentially lock down the recruit rank, so that they can only access certain chunks, then get them to prove themselves as worthy members of your faction. Really, I think this adds another layer to the game, brings us closer to survival realism and creates a more original Minecraftian gameplay.

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It takes longer then the usual Tickets , from my knowledge and expirience of it , But its not impossible to do , just might prevent certain things , yet in my opinion it should return also it shouldnt have to be since id rather factions focus more on building up then having to worry for thieves all the time

 

[Legoclub22]

Maybe somewhere between no rules and total ban? Like theft is limited, so that you can do it within reason, since people need to lock their junk, but that someone can't empty out 100% of your stuff because you didn't set the locks correctly.

If someone instructs a kid to microwave their laptop, will you say "well he should have known better, his fault," or say "that was a d**k move, don't do that"?

 

[AgentLew]

Theft is a touchy/tricky subject...Some say just punish the thieves, no matter what was stolen, and some argue that they should only receive punishment if X and Y are true about the nature of the theft. I'll be honest, I don't really know what the current rules are on the matter...I've heard varying things as of the late, things like taking a single enchant table being bannable, to the old rule that I'm at least familiar with: Mass theft is illegal. Someone tell me, what's the current ruling on theft? I'm a tad scared to go out and steal a darkroom from someone, the concept has been mentioned as what seemed to be legal, but if stealing one block can be bannable then surely theft of an unclaimed area would be too, right?

I'm rambling, to put it simply, theft of items can be prevented through a variety of simple methods including faction perms and massive locks. You forgot to lock a chest, and you lost what was in it to a thief, 100% your fault in my opinion. But I feel as though what classifies as bannable theft needs to be explained in further detail, or a least rethought to be more sensible(apparently stealing beacons is illegal too). What's the point of theft if you get banned for stealing the only things worth stealing?

 

[CnocBride]

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You are right, theft and griefing and all that jazz is a very tricky subject.

Taking items from chests is legal, period. Doesn't matter how you take the items, be it through being a member of a MassiveLock, have permission in the chunk, using ally container perms, using faction container perms. It doesn't matter, as long as you do it on your main account. What this means is, if you see the faction 'Male' has container perms set to true for recruits and also has the flag open set to yes, then you are perfectly within your right to leave your current faction, enter that faction as a recruit and steal everything. That's fine. You cannot, however, get your alt on, join the faction and rob everything. If that happens, you will be punished.

I reiterate, theft is bannable when it is done on an alt. There is also the method of stealing from a faction by utilizing build perms to your advantage. If you are allied with a certain faction and they have their build perms turned on for allies, it is perfectly legal to go into that faction (by either use of doors or by breaking a 2x1/2x2 entry), break the chest, steal the items and place the chest back down. The policy here is, if you place the chest back down, the griefing rules are negated and thus the situation is considered theft which is within the rules. Refusing/forgetting to place the chest back down will lead to you being punished according to our griefing procedure.

Theft relate to stealing from chests, not stealing blocks from a building structure or any other faction built structure. Stealing beacons is illegal. Breaking enchantment tables is illegal. Breaking anvils is illegal. Taking beacons from chests is legal. Taking enchantment tables from chests is legal. Taking anvils from chests is legal. The general rule of thumb is, if the build is claimed or the build actively used, do not break blocks with the intent of destroying the build or taking those blocks for your own personal gain.

In regards to Wilderness builds, you are allowed to dismantle wilderness builds as long as you check for activity around the area. You can check doors, check blocks placed, check chest transactions, the vicinity of the build to a nearby base. You can request for staff assistance in determining a wilderness builds activity. If the build is not being used, feel free to dismantle the build. Take whatever blocks you want. The griefing rules for wilderness builds only apply if they are being actively used, if no one is using that house up on the hill, feel free to dismantle it and take the resources, just make sure you check for activity.

So to conclude, mass theft is perfectly legal once you restrict yourself to your main account, taking items from chests, breaking chests and replacing them and dismantling inactive wilderness builds. It can be a touchy subject and we recently re-clarified our internal staff procedure about griefing and theft.

 

[MyCatBubbles]

Theft relate to stealing from chests, not stealing blocks from a building structure or any other faction built structure. Stealing beacons is illegal. Breaking enchantment tables is illegal. Breaking anvils is illegal. Taking beacons from chests is legal. Taking enchantment tables from chests is legal. Taking anvils from chests is legal. The general rule of thumb is, if the build is claimed or the build actively used, do not break blocks with the intent of destroying the build or taking those blocks for your own personal gain.

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Honestly thats probably the most tedious rule I've ever heard. It could lead to a ridiculous slippery slope where members just make a chunk and physically place all their diamond/gold/beacon/enchanting table blocks and say they're in use so they won't get stolen.

You see the issues with this? I personally believe that it should be an 'all or nothing' in regards to stealing valuables.. Whats honestly more taxing and terrible. A single diamond block plucked from the ground, making your ground look bare for a few seconds before you replace it with another diamond block, or your whole vault of diamonds that you stashed in a chest robbed? Noones making castles out of diamonds/beacon blocks, its honestly not grief if you take a singular valuable block someone placed and although people could play devils advocate for the rule, its difficult for what I believe a majority of players to take seriously and actually think as a useful rule. And im not even going to mention the numerous ways to already lock up blocks you've placed on the ground as we all know how to.

 

[Winterless]

Honestly thats probably the most tedious rule I've ever heard. It could lead to a ridiculous slippery slope where members just make a chunk and physically place all their diamond/gold/beacon/enchanting table blocks and say they're in use so they won't get stolen.

You see the issues with this? I personally believe that it should be an 'all or nothing' in regards to stealing valuables.. Whats honestly more taxing and terrible. A single diamond block plucked from the ground, making your ground look bare for a few seconds before you replace it with another diamond block, or your whole vault of diamonds that you stashed in a chest robbed? Noones making castles out of diamonds/beacon blocks, its honestly not grief if you take a singular valuable block someone placed and although people could play devils advocate for the rule, its difficult for what I believe a majority of players to take seriously and actually think as a useful rule. And im not even going to mention the numerous ways to already lock up blocks you've placed on the ground as we all know how to.

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To be fair Argost has a lot of valuable items that are actually integral to the build, such as gold inlays in the pillars and a gold pit that fits the aesthetic of a faction.

It's pretty obvious when people are just placing valuable blocks down to prevent grief vs. having it as an important part of a build

 

[MyCatBubbles]

To be fair Argost has a lot of valuable items that are actually integral to the build, such as gold inlays in the pillars and a gold pit that fits the aesthetic of a faction.

It's pretty obvious when people are just placing valuable blocks down to prevent grief vs. having it as an important part of a build

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Regardless you still can't look past the numerous ways you can make sure people don't steal with things such as accesses, signs etc. The problem is however with this rule is that players get punished for taking singular blocks some random was using as an enchanting table or iron block to grind repair etc. If a player did take valaubles that actually were to add onto a build like you guys did and not just be used for your repair room or other crap then it would simply fall under griefing as their intent is to make your build look ugly, and we all know taking a singluar enchanting table or anvil players are using to repair gear does not make a build look 'ugly' so it really can't fall under griefing.

 

[CnocBride]

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I understand the concern and if it does become an issue, we can change the rule but for now I've seen no actual issue with that part of the rule. The actual rule that I have heard internal concerns about are in relation to the wilderness rules, e.g. checking for activity. I admit griefing can be a complicated subject to wrap your head around but just keep in mind that you should never break anything that isn't yours within claimed land.

In reply to your actual concern, I get what you mean and it is very possible but I doubt there would be many players who would go to the trouble of mining out an entire chunk and then placing every diamond block they own in that area. We would notice that easily enough and I think spending 1-3r to lock one chest would be the more efficient and preferable choice for most people in regards to guarding valuables.

As Winterless said, it's easy to differentiate between for example Argost's gold pit which is part of the build aesthetic than an actual chunk of diamond blocks to use the griefing rules to ones advantage.

 

[Jackalop3]

So does that mean I can still make myself a castle out of diamond blocks?

 

[SubscriptShark]

I understand the concern and if it does become an issue, we can change the rule but for now I've seen no actual issue with that part of the rule. The actual rule that I have heard internal concerns about are in relation to the wilderness rules, e.g. checking for activity. I admit griefing can be a complicated subject to wrap your head around but just keep in mind that you should never break anything that isn't yours within claimed land.

In reply to your actual concern, I get what you mean and it is very possible but I doubt there would be many players who would go to the trouble of mining out an entire chunk and then placing every diamond block they own in that area. We would notice that easily enough and I think spending 1-3r to lock one chest would be the more efficient and preferable choice for most people in regards to guarding valuables.

As Winterless said, it's easy to differentiate between for example Argost's gold pit which is part of the build aesthetic than an actual chunk of diamond blocks to use the griefing rules to ones advantage.

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Does griefing fall under theft , or is there exceptions..?

 

[CnocBride]

So does that mean I can still make myself a castle out of diamond blocks?

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We run a medieval build style. Castles were never built out of diamond blocks unless you consider yourself El Dorado, which would still violate the build style rules.

Does griefing fall under theft , or is there exceptions..?

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Griefing does not fall under theft. Griefing is only allowed when you are dismantling an unused wilderness build and even then, I wouldn't call that "griefng", just "recycling the blocks and putting them to better use".

 

[SirePyro]

I absolutely agree with this. A few weeks ago, a couple players joined my faction, and then they made off with our entire valuables storage(which was public since members often needed to repair tools and such, and we were pretty small at the time), as well as our haste beacon. Like any good players, we made a ticket and a staff came to check it out, but told us that all of our stolen items were fair game. She told us that we could get our beacon back since it had been griefed, not stolen from a chest, but we never got it back. In fact, a number of our stolen items were put up on the auctionhouse. The problem here is, if factions cannot trust that their recruits are not thieves, I suspect many new players will struggle to find a faction. This happened to me just a couple days ago... I was without a faction and because an angry ex-member had slandered me to my first choice of factions, I was denied entry. If factions are barred from recruiting members only for their items and killing them immediately afterward, it should be the same the other way around. Factions should be a place members can trust with their safety, and members should be people factions can trust with their items.