Archived Reevaluating Mcmmo Repair

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65jes89

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As of this thread a few months ago, McMMO repair has had arcane forging disabled. This means that it is no longer possible to keep enchantments on armor and items when repairing them with McMMO repair using an iron block. This was a major step in the correct direction, and I greatly appreciate the effort by Monmarty/toku and other staff to improve the economy, however I personally believe that this was too large of a step in the right direction too quickly.

There is a huge problem with having too much god armor on MassiveCraft at the moment; I entirely agree with this, regardless of the cauess, and think that the armor supply needs to be nerfed. However when all of the following changes occured at (around) the same time:
  • Removal of /fix
  • Removal of McMMO arcane forging
  • Reverting to 1.7 style enchanting
There comes the problem of losing accessibility to enchants, particularly armor. Armor degrades especially quickly while either darkrooming or fighting, and when you have to rely on vanilla repair, it is especially difficult to maintain sets, let alone make new ones, due to it being difficult to impossible to make xp faster than it costs to repair the armor you damaged gaining that xp. Then, combined with the 30 level cost per enchantment, it becomes even more difficult. This makes it especially difficult for newer players to get into pvp, due to high maitenance of gear, and talking to other pvpers, I am finding that many established pvpers are struggling.

I, however, in no way support the complete reversion of all these changes. I do, however, find that these changes are self-defeating in several ways:
  • The primary purpose of these changes was the reduce armor supply, thus increasing price, and therefore incentive to pvp and darkroom. However, the attempt to increase purchasing of god armor has failed for a couple reasons. For example, vanilla repair costs increasingly more with each repair, eventually becoming unrepairable after the cost would have bene greater than 40 levels (and frankly it's impracticle to repair long before this). This however, is impossible to tell via initial inspection before buying, and so a buyer has no idea if they're getting a piece they can repair 10 times or that they may as well wear until it breaks, discouraging the purchase of god armor.
  • The gain in profit in pvping is slow, and will continue to be slow. This is fine; I don't expect it to be overnight. However, the immediate cost was greatly increased, in terms of time, or in regals to purchase supplies, due to the time it takes make a set compared to the chance of getting a single god weapon. The cost of repairing a set after a fight is more than it's worth when the potential gain is a god weapon worth 150r, max (I think less, but have been kind of inactive so not 100% sure).
In order to fix these changes without completely reverting to where we were and subsequently losing all progress made on raising god armor price (something I fully support):
  • Re-enable arcane forging with a 90% success rate (note that this is per right click, which has to happen multiple times per piece of armor, and so will be signicanly lower for a full repair). This ensures that enchantments will leave the economy, and thus you will have to either eventually buy new sets or make your own.
  • Triple or quadruple the diamond cost of McMMO repair. Previously, it cost about 4 diamonds to fully repair a piece to 100%. This is equivalent to about 3-4r, a tiny fraction of the worth of god armor. Furthermore, there is a huge excess of diamonds in the market due to fishing/duping/whatever. Thereby, you're taking out two birds with one stone in a sense, helping to reduce the amount of diamonds, as well as making it more expensive to use McMMO repair.
  • Re-enable /fix. At the price it was set at, there was really no reason to remove it, as it was significantly more expensive than using McMMO repair, and so really just acted as a money sink for roleplayers who didn't know someone with 1k repair.
Sorry this thread is probably a bit lower standard than my other threads, it's 2:30 a.m. and I'm hella tired and don't want to proof read this.

@Tokuu @MonMarty @Neckerei @Omnomivore
 
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Outstanding performance. Good demeanor as well. that's a yes from me 10/10


didn't read it yet but its nice
 
As of this thread a few months ago, McMMO repair has had arcane forging disabled. This means that it is no longer possible to keep enchantments on armor and items when repairing them with McMMO repair using an iron block. This was a major step in the correct direction, and I greatly appreciate the effort by Monmarty/toku and other staff to improve the economy, however I personally believe that this was too large of a step in the right direction too quickly.

There is a huge problem with having too much god armor on MassiveCraft at the moment; I entirely agree with this, regardless of the cauess, and think that the armor supply needs to be nerfed. However when all of the following changes occured at (around) the same time:
  • Removal of /fix
  • Removal of McMMO arcane forging
  • Reverting to 1.7 style enchanting
There comes the problem of losing accessibility to enchants, particularly armor. Armor degrades especially quickly while either darkrooming or fighting, and when you have to rely on vanilla repair, it is especially difficult to maintain sets, let alone make new ones, due to it being difficult to impossible to make xp faster than it costs to repair the armor you damaged gaining that xp. Then, combined with the 30 level cost per enchantment, it becomes even more difficult. This makes it especially difficult for newer players to get into pvp, due to high maitenance of gear, and talking to other pvpers, I am finding that many established pvpers are struggling.

I, however, in no way support the complete reversion of all these changes. I do, however, find that these changes are self-defeating in several ways:
  • The primary purpose of these changes was the reduce armor supply, thus increasing price, and therefore incentive to pvp and darkroom. However, the attempt to increase purchasing of god armor has failed for a couple reasons. For example, vanilla repair costs increasingly more with each repair, eventually becoming unrepairable after the cost would have bene greater than 40 levels (and frankly it's impracticle to repair long before this). This however, is impossible to tell via initial inspection before buying, and so a buyer has no idea if they're getting a piece they can repair 10 times or that they may as well wear until it breaks, discouraging the purchase of god armor.
  • The gain in profit in pvping is slow, and will continue to be slow. This is fine; I don't expect it to be overnight. However, the immediate cost was greatly increased, in terms of time, or in regals to purchase supplies, due to the time it takes make a set compared to the chance of getting a single god weapon. The cost of repairing a set after a fight is more than it's worth when the potential gain is a god weapon worth 150r, max (I think less, but have been kind of inactive so not 100% sure).
In order to fix these changes without completely reverting to where we were and subsequently losing all progress made on raising god armor price (something I fully support):
  • Re-enable arcane forging with a 90% success rate (note that this is per right click, which has to happen multiple times per piece of armor, and so will be signicanly lower for a full repair). This ensures that enchantments will leave the economy, and thus you will have to either eventually buy new sets or make your own.
  • Triple or quadruple the diamond cost of McMMO repair. Previously, it cost about 4 diamonds to fully repair a piece to 100%. This is equivalent to about 3-4r, a tiny fraction of the worth of god armor. Furthermore, there is a huge excess of diamonds in the market due to fishing/duping/whatever. Thereby, you're taking out two birds with one stone in a sense, helping to reduce the amount of diamonds, as well as making it more expensive to use McMMO repair.
  • Re-enable /fix. At the price it was set at, there was really no reason to remove it, as it was significantly more expensive than using McMMO repair, and so really just acted as a money sink for roleplayers who didn't know someone with 1k repair.
Sorry this thread is probably a bit lower standard than my other threads, it's 2:30 a.m. and I'm hella tired and don't want to proof read this.

@Tokuu @MonMarty @Neckerei @Omnomivore
I concur
 
What they may also consider with /fix is like before prem had 500 fix point. what if that was back, maybe keep it at 100points then make repair 2r/%. since you get 1 daily freeby and the rest is 200r to fix which encourages Darkrooming, or being active to get money to fix your tools
 
@65jes89 im interested in your thoughts as to what @Sir_Daragon said.

Would reverting back further to the point system instead of the regal system for /fix be good as well? I personally think it would be better.
 
Thank you for creating this thread! I think this is a very, very important issue that needs to be discussed. I think this needs to be considered by Game staff.
 
@65jes89 im interested in your thoughts as to what @Sir_Daragon said.

Would reverting back further to the point system instead of the regal system for /fix be good as well? I personally think it would be better.
I personally think we have enough to spend our regals on. Furthermore, it would be harder to get enchants out that way, since it has a 100% success rate. Still better than the current system though, imo.
 
Would there be any benefit to increase armor durability and/or remove the mcmmo axe skill that breaks armor faster? Apologies in advance if I forgot the specific terms since been a while since I actively looked at mcmmo.
 
So is that, Pro daily points or Pro fix for Regal
I think points would be fine if it were like 100 points with the options to pay after that, just to give roleplayers/new players a chance to keep up their tools/incentive to log on and fix stuff. More leaning towards regals though, definitely don't want to go back to 500% fix per day.
Would there be any benefit to increase armor durability and/or remove the mcmmo axe skill that breaks armor faster? Apologies in advance if I forgot the specific terms since been a while since I actively looked at mcmmo.
I believe that the armor breaking skill is already capped, though I'm not 100% sure and I don't believe it shows via /axes. Also, this would only help in PvP, it wouldn't help the fact that the net xp gain for darkrooming is so small.
Raising overall durability is an option, but imo would be less preferable to just re-enabling McMMO repair.
 
Maybe also making arcane forging be unlocked at something a bit lower? I feel like the only way anybody who is sane does it is they do some kinda funky stuff with cactus or anvils (anvils are pretty balanced so thats not too bad, but still a bit funky and weird) or wait for a change in massive's code to allow them to do that and grind to 1k repair. Not ideal in my opinion, but idk...
 
grinding repair takes a weekend, hug a cactus with healthtrait, and repair it as you go
 
I just want this so I can remove the stupid durability bar from my lore sword... Because I accidentally broke a block with it. And it always bugs me.
 
bump

@Tokuu stop ignoring me i know your secrets
This will be looked at after the world deletion. We want to make sure that we only take on one large project at any given time. However we will be looking at this and other PvP related issues once that is completed.
 
Interesting that a large portion of the survival community advocated for the removal of /fix quite strongly, and now it's being advocated to bring it back.
 
Interesting that a large portion of the survival community advocated for the removal of /fix quite strongly, and now it's being advocated to bring it back.
/fix I don't really care about that much, that's just a side thing, and I personally never had anything against it. Too expensive to be practical, imo.

Almost nobody wanted McMMO repair removed completely, just nerfed. It got a very heavy-handed reaction when we really just need material cost increase and arcane forging slightly lowered.
 
/fix I don't really care about that much, that's just a side thing, and I personally never had anything against it. Too expensive to be practical, imo.

Almost nobody wanted McMMO repair removed completely, just nerfed. It got a very heavy-handed reaction when we really just need material cost increase and arcane forging slightly lowered.
Right, I was just kinda making a tongue in cheek observation concerning how getting any changes made to /fix and mcmmo repair was like pulling teeth and now there's a thread just a few months later concerning adding it back. Wasn't trying to be too serious.

I definitely didn't want Mcmmo repair nerfed as hard as it was. With the changes we asked for and vanilla repair already being a thing, it's just crazy how they still messed it up.
 
I think that repairing is fine the way it is, and /fix should never be implemented again unless it has a day long cooldown or something on it to reduce its usefulness to rich players.

Once you hit a certain regal amount, repairing your items with /fix was instant and negligible. Thus creating rich pvpers who could instantly repair their armor for as long as they had regals.

Considering some people have access to thousands, tens of thousands, or even hundreds of thousands of regals, I don't think /fix should ever come back, unless its limited.

I also don't think this change was done to "increase purchasing of god armor", I feel it was certainly done to reduce the inflated amount of god items on the server though.

However, reinstating what you're saying doesn't fix the problem, and in my opinion only makes it worse. If we reinstate these changes, /fix or AF, then those same players who have TONS of god items will once again have more means to KEEP those items into pepetuity. Especially larger or more developed factions who also already possess tons of god items totalling from the individuals in the faction who possess items.

I know that since I have about a dub of god armor, as a single player, that some of these larger factions must have several chests full at minimum. Having used the current repair system myself many times, I find it completely adequate as is. This was a good change.



Arcane Forging, from my experience, really isn't all that different from the current way to repair things with anvils, other than it requires grinding MCmmo XP and has a chance of failing to retain enchantments. I don't like this idea because it creates a further divide between the established PvPers (who were using and have leveled their repair skill before AF was changed, and I'm sure would love for it to come back because it personally benefits them, funny how there's always suggestions from pvpers that personally benefit the suggester) and newer players who will have to manually repair their god gear the vanilla way.

To be honest, I see little reason to bring this back other than perhaps pure laziness on your part/the part of the repairing party. I think that the system we have now is what we need to have. It's virtually fair, it makes repairing more involved and tedious, and its helping with our problem of item inflation.


I can fight one person who's using an axe, and if they are a good pvper, I will have to switch out my set or repair it mid battle. I would argue that's a bit much. Not to mention the compounding effect of being hit by multiple people with axes.


So I would argue we should change axe armor damage values instead of reinstating AF.

I like having to repair the current way tbh, it makes the whole process more involved on the players end, and it's really not as hard as you let on to keep suits up.

It's just now you have to actually work and do tedious tasks to repair items and sets that you may not have had to before (aside from grinding repair). Which I think is an awesome thing.

Because now, say I'm fighting two people who are both richer than me, say I die or escape but manage to break their armor decently.

Well, if I was to come attack again, if your changes were implemented, they could both do /fix while I have to gain XP and go to an anvil if I want my armor to be in good shape. You could argue I could do /fix as well, but there's a difference between someone with few regals doing /fix and someone who's amassed a fortune doing /fix. One can do it into perpetuity and virtually not care, the other has to be very careful because its quite expensive.

So that's essentially unlimited durability if you can afford it. Bad.


Also, if you're darkrooming in god gear... you're uh, you're... doing it wrong..
 
I think that repairing is fine the way it is, and /fix should never be implemented again unless it has a day long cooldown or something on it to reduce its usefulness to rich players.

Once you hit a certain regal amount, repairing your items with /fix was instant and negligible. Thus creating rich pvpers who could instantly repair their armor for as long as they had regals.

Considering some people have access to thousands, tens of thousands, or even hundreds of thousands of regals, I don't think /fix should ever come back, unless its limited.

I also don't think this change was done to "increase purchasing of god armor", I feel it was certainly done to reduce the inflated amount of god items on the server though.

However, reinstating what you're saying doesn't fix the problem, and in my opinion only makes it worse. If we reinstate these changes, /fix or AF, then those same players who have TONS of god items will once again have more means to KEEP those items into pepetuity. Especially larger or more developed factions who also already possess tons of god items totalling from the individuals in the faction who possess items.

I know that since I have about a dub of god armor, as a single player, that some of these larger factions must have several chests full at minimum. Having used the current repair system myself many times, I find it completely adequate as is. This was a good change.



Arcane Forging, from my experience, really isn't all that different from the current way to repair things with anvils, other than it requires grinding MCmmo XP and has a chance of failing to retain enchantments. I don't like this idea because it creates a further divide between the established PvPers (who were using and have leveled their repair skill before AF was changed, and I'm sure would love for it to come back because it personally benefits them, funny how there's always suggestions from pvpers that personally benefit the suggester) and newer players who will have to manually repair their god gear the vanilla way.

To be honest, I see little reason to bring this back other than perhaps pure laziness on your part/the part of the repairing party. I think that the system we have now is what we need to have. It's virtually fair, it makes repairing more involved and tedious, and its helping with our problem of item inflation.


I can fight one person who's using an axe, and if they are a good pvper, I will have to switch out my set or repair it mid battle. I would argue that's a bit much. Not to mention the compounding effect of being hit by multiple people with axes.


So I would argue we should change axe armor damage values instead of reinstating AF.

I like having to repair the current way tbh, it makes the whole process more involved on the players end, and it's really not as hard as you let on to keep suits up.

It's just now you have to actually work and do tedious tasks to repair items and sets that you may not have had to before (aside from grinding repair). Which I think is an awesome thing.

Because now, say I'm fighting two people who are both richer than me, say I die or escape but manage to break their armor decently.

Well, if I was to come attack again, if your changes were implemented, they could both do /fix while I have to gain XP and go to an anvil if I want my armor to be in good shape. You could argue I could do /fix as well, but there's a difference between someone with few regals doing /fix and someone who's amassed a fortune doing /fix. One can do it into perpetuity and virtually not care, the other has to be very careful because its quite expensive.

So that's essentially unlimited durability if you can afford it. Bad.


Also, if you're darkrooming in god gear... you're uh, you're... doing it wrong..
This screams of assumptions and misinformation.

Arcane Forging, from my experience, really isn't all that different from the current way to repair things with anvils, other than it requires grinding MCmmo XP and has a chance of failing to retain enchantments
That's a huge difference, lol. It's the difference between doing a couple of hours grinding once to get 1k repair and grinding for 20 minutes to fix a set. Plus, if you really think that there's no difference between the two why are you so against AF?

I can fight one person who's using an axe, and if they are a good pvper, I will have to switch out my set or repair it mid battle.
What? No. Massive hasn't been this way in ages. I have nearly 3.8ish thousand axes, and I honestly can't remember the last time I broke someone's armor. Repairing/switching armor isn't a thing, nor has it been in years.

So I would argue we should change axe armor damage values instead of reinstating AF.
Which would help, but would not solve the problem of darkrooming being unprofitable. Because despite your claim that
Also, if you're darkrooming in god gear... you're uh, you're... doing it wrong..
That is absolutely how you darkroom, and is how massive has historically darkroomed since I joined the server. I've spent dozens, maybe hundreds, of hours in darkrooms, and haven't darkroomed in non god armor since I got more than a few sets in like early 2014. Mob damage is really just way too high to darkroom effectively without god armor; I'd argue it's frankly a bit difficult to do even with god armor with the way damage currently is.

and it's really not as hard as you let on to keep suits up.
I recently mostly quit massive/sold the majority of my items and started over. It absolutely is extremely difficult to profit experience-wise while darkrooming, to the point where it's affected my motivation to get on massive because I know I'll have to spend an unholy amount of time darkrooming, something which I feel I shouldn't really have to do considering the unholy amount of time I've put into darkrooming during the earlier part of my time on Massive.

It's just now you have to actually work and do tedious tasks to repair items and sets that you may not have had to before (aside from grinding repair). Which I think is an awesome thing.
There is more than enough grinding on massive. If you want to grind, go grind your axes, grind enchants to sell, whatever. Established pvpers have put enough time into it that they should not have to continuously do hours of grinding to keep up their supplies to pvp on Massive, especially when it at the same time it hurts new players, since they have a much more difficult time getting established on massive without any form of reasonable repair that they can get from allies/pay relatively cheaply for.

Well, if I was to come attack again, if your changes were implemented, they could both do /fix while I have to gain XP and go to an anvil if I want my armor to be in good shape. You could argue I could do /fix as well, but there's a difference between someone with few regals doing /fix and someone who's amassed a fortune doing /fix. One can do it into perpetuity and virtually not care, the other has to be very careful because its quite expensive.
Okay except that people just won't fight if their armor can't afford it... They're not going to fight if they have little enough god armor that they can't just switch a set out. So instead they'll either grind vanilla xp, meaning that they won't pvp, they'll do something unrelated, or they'll log off, none of which are beneficial for the pvp community. And frankly, why shouldn't the rich be able to just /fix their items? All being rich means is you've already done the grinding and are just cashing in that past grinding in the present for repair.

I know that since I have about a dub of god armor, as a single player, that some of these larger factions must have several chests full at minimum. Having used the current repair system myself many times, I find it completely adequate as is. This was a good change.
I had ~70 sets of god armor until I sold most of it a bit ago. And I was struggling. It depends heavily upon the amount you pvp, and I think the last time I saw you pvp was in like 2015? Granted, I haven't really been pvping either in the past couple months, but the point still stands.

funny how there's always suggestions from pvpers that personally benefit the suggester
That irks me. Like, a lot. I do not give a damn about how a suggestion personally affects me, as long as it benefits the community, because ultimately that's what will benefit me the most in terms of play quality. Hence why, as I stated in the OP, I was a major proponent of nerfing repair. Just not this much. Nobody wanted it nerfed this much, and it's a mystery to me as to why it was nerfed so heavily. Like look through my thread history dude. I've literally proposed to remove all god armor on the server when gift4all was still going on, and around that time I had literally >100 sets of god armor. I asked for the sharp 6/prot 5 tier to be unlocked, which again would cause me to have to do a ton of grinding, especially now that I don't have base prot 4/sharp 5 sets to use, something which I still support.

You can disagree with me all you want, but you cannot accuse me of suggesting these things because I think I'm going to benefit.
 
Add arcane forging back but make a cap on how many times you can repair an item before it goes «too expensive»