Archived Protecting Player Run Business

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Along with reasonable modes of money creation and money sinks, we also need to promote economic policy that moves money from entity to entity at a stable rate, and promotes business. The staff do not currently protect player ventures except against the server enforced rule against scamming. If the staff instituted rules and provided the foundations to run legit player owned businesses where they wouldn't have to worry about being scammed by customers, I'm sure we would see a burst in business and money moving.

This comment is the inspiration for the creation of this thread.

Let's all recall a time when one of the most prominent businesses on the server was a bank owned by @Mecharic , known as Mechbank. Along with some other businesses, I would probably rank it as one of if not the most successful player run business this server has ever seen. It was quite impressive what Mecharic achieved, considering his bank was run completely off of player created facilities, as in, he did not use in game features, nor did he have backing from the staff that insured he wouldn't be scammed. Yet he pressed on.

Until he couldn't maintain the bank anymore. Whether or not it was lack of time or lack of interest, it is known that lack of staff insurance was a deciding factor in terminating the bank. It is a shame that something as vital as a bank of all things, in a medieval environment, was not able to survive indefinitely.

That is why I am here today to propose a few solutions and rules that would help promote player run businesses, and would hopefully alleviate some concerns on whether or not a player should consider creating his or her own business.

Allow players to write their own binding contracts

Currently, most players include a clause at the end of their application for services rendered, that usually says something along the lines of:

I, <player name>, understand that if I break any of the rules listed by the owner of <business or services>, I will have my access revoked.

This is fine, but it only allows a business owner to either deny service based on rules broken, or to report a player is they broke an already existing server rules, such as griefing, excessive stealing, etc. This does not allow business owners to report a player for scamming if they are trusted in good faith to say, repay a loan, and allow the owner to recoup their losses. This will only allow the scammer to be banned. Which is better than nothing; one less scammed out of the pool of potential customers. But it does not help promote player business, since they can't recoup losses.

What I am suggesting, is to allow business owners, on their public threads on the forums, to write their own binding contracts that states:

· What services they tend to render, and what action can be taken against them if they fail to render said services if payment by customer has already been made.

· What punishments can be given to a potential scammer if they do indeed scam the business owner out of money/goods

Take this for example as to what a player written contract may look like:

By act of signing this contract, which is done so by copying this message in its entirety and reposting it yourself on this thread, you agree to the following:

· If you in any way attempt to defraud me of money for services rendered, it is within my right to report you to the server staff and seek punishment that includes but is not limited to; mute, jail, or ban, and recoupment of losses from your player funds up to the amount lost as a result of your actions.

· If you in any way attempt to defraud me of money for services rendered, and are punished for doing such by server staff, I have the right to refuse service to you in the future.

· You acknowledge that breaking any rules I have set will result in termination of your service.

What is different about this contract is that it allows for punishment of a player for scamming, and allows a player to recoup their losses from said scamming, not previously covered by staff at this moment. The latter part of the last sentence is the most important part, as failure to protect the individual is what is hurting player driven business.

Now that a contract has been written, and a player seeking services has signed it, what happens now? Well, nothing unless a rule outlined by the owner of the business has been broken. Then, a report is filed with a direct link to the post citing that the contract was signed, and the staff do two things:

· Determine if the contract is valid and fair. I decided that allowing the staff to do this on a case by case basis was a better idea than making a process to have contracts approved with the staff, as the latter will create more staff work like approving war declarations did. This does allow players to possibly write abusing contracts, but I believe the staff will be fair and just in determining what is and isn't an overreaching contract in the context of a player's rights. If the contract is found to be unjust, the business owner is notified and suggested to make changes, and the player who scammed is banned, but losses are not recouped.

· If the contract is determined valid, the player is banned, and losses are returned to the business owner so he or she can continue business.


Create a blanket rule to cover business owners

Moving away from the idea of player written contracts, the staff could also create a blanket rule that states that scamming in regards to a player run business will result in punishment and the owner's losses being recouped from the offending player's funds.


· What problem exist: Player run businesses are not protected by the server, and are at the mercy of scammers.

· What will fix the problem: Outlined above.

· What will result from fixing the problem: An influx in player run businesses now that their ventures are sensibly protected.
 
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The contract thing it even be totally forum based. The entire role-play scene is done on the forums when it comes to permissions and applications anyway I don't see how this could be much different.
 
Would add a lot more meaning behind every "business" which at the moment is just a chest shop sitting at /tp market. You have my support.
 
I'm kinda worried about poorly written contracts, grey areas, and such. That being said, I do quite like the idea.
 
I'm kinda worried about poorly written contracts, grey areas, and such. That being said, I do quite like the idea.
And that's where staff making the final call comes into play. At that point it would be no different then when staff make calls right now regarding rules breaks and such.

Since its server protected I would like a staff approved contract situation. Could work similar to character applications and specials permissions.
The only reason I didn't write anything about that is I was trying to keep staff work to a minimum, which would make it easier for something like this to get implemented, if they have to do less upfront work.

Trust me, I thought about an application process. Was the first thing I thought about.
 
The only reason I didn't write anything about that is I was trying to keep staff work to a minimum, which would make it easier for something like this to get implemented, if they have to do less upfront work.

Trust me, I thought about an application process. Was the first thing I thought about.
I of course would suggest a player-run thing where staff would choose players to approve them similar to the old forum moderator system but of course that has too many red flags.
 
I personally like this idea, as it would be easier to run businesses and could possibly cause more activity in the economy.

Note: Yes I am a staff member. But this is not at all my area of expertise nor do I do any staff work related to this. So my approval of the idea means nothing more than anyone else's.
 
I'm just curious if you could explain what you mean by player businesses. You mentioned the bank but I'm just wondering if you have other examples. Great idea by the way.
 
I'm just curious if you could explain what you mean by player businesses. You mentioned the bank but I'm just wondering if you have other examples. Great idea by the way.
  • Mecharic ran a bank for well one a year
  • A friend of mine ran a darkroom access business.
  • Other people have run darkroom businesses.
  • I believe a few people have tried to run banks in the past. Never succeeded as much as Mecharic did.
 
I'm just curious if you could explain what you mean by player businesses. You mentioned the bank but I'm just wondering if you have other examples. Great idea by the way.
  • Mecharic ran a bank for well one a year
  • A friend of mine ran a darkroom access business.
  • Other people have run darkroom businesses.
  • I believe a few people have tried to run banks in the past. Never succeeded as much as Mecharic did.
I believe that if this were to be implemented.. then people would be more comfortable with running a business and the idea list would be greater.
 
Ok, I see what you're talking about and yeah, a contract to protect those people would be very nice. It would encourage people to use the businesses and allow the owners to not have to worry about being scammed. This would work out well for everyone. Then like you just said @znake1468 more businesses could be created. Then if its on the forums it would also work as advertising for them. This is a brilliant idea.
 
If this was to be made into server policy I would reopen Mechbank, even if I need to borrow money from people to make it happen. I loved running Mechbank, not only because it allowed me to help players achieve their goals (ex, starting a faction, getting god gear for PvP, renting a house, ext) but it also made a decent profit on paper. It was also fun to manage the accounts (yes, I'm one of THOSE people lol) and to have people I'd never met before be like "Oh hey, ur that bank guy!".

Besides just my bank, there are other companies and ideas I've had that could've been made possible with stuff like this in place. Insurance, for example, could become reality. Making actual contracts with PvP factions as mercenary groups would be possible too, as they'd need to fulfill their contract or lose the money. You could contract out builders and get your money back with no fuss if they don't do the job.

This seriously needs to be a thing people. Seriously. Like, why is it not already a thing levels of seriously.
 
  • All scamming is illegal on MassiveCraft and agreements are binding once concluded.
https://www.massivecraft.com/rules#respect-the-freedoms-and-rights-of-other-players

I found this rule on the MassiveCraft website. It does say that all scamming is illegal, but I can't exactly make out what they are trying to say with the last bit: "and all agreements are binding once concluded." I can only guess that once services are rendered and money is exchanged, that it means you can't ask for your money back. But I'm not too sure.

Maybe @Staff could clarify?
 
It means that if you make a deal you cant jump ship midway and leave the other party stranded.

Example:
Player A owns a faction but needs to go on holiday so he makes a contract and agreement with player B that faction leadership will be transferred until his return on X date. If Player A comes back in time and wants the faction back he is in the right to get it back. If Player A however overextends his contract he loses his cover by the contract. Player B cannot refuse as long as it is within the stipulations of said contact then staff will intervene and take over.

The rule kind of already binds you to contracts, contracts are binding, what we suggest however is that if you plan on making contracts with anyone you make a forum conversation with the person and add some gamestaff to it so they can be witnesses and have logs of the entire thing in case anything happens.
 
The rule kind of already binds you to contracts, contracts are binding, what we suggest however is that if you plan on making contracts with anyone you make a forum conversation with the person and add some gamestaff to it so they can be witnesses and have logs of the entire thing in case anything happens.
Most business owners already use the forums for advertising and having people fill out forms for services, so this part is covered.

The main thing here is to protect the business owner so they don't have to be afraid with every customer they take on, worrying they might get scammed, and the worst that happens is the scammer gets banned. Sure, it saves other people the chance of being scammed, but it doesn't help the business owner who just lost money from the bad situation.

I'm hoping that we can either amend the scamming rule to allow players who render services for an agreed upon amount on the forums before the service is rendered, to be able to recoup their monetary losses if they are indeed scammed of money.

Or creating a new detailed rule that would cover all of this.

What do you think?
 
So then, @Staff if I was to reopen Mechbank but keep everything on the forums and in conversations I could do so with full refunds if they don't meet their obligations? ei, pay back loans + interest?
 
Small bump as I drowned out this thread with my responses to other Feature & Idea Suggestions
 
So uh... no answer to my question? Don't mean to be pushy, just that it's been over 24 hours... sorry if you think it's a dumb question.