Physical Stat / Crp Rolls / Mechanic Changes

MonMarty

MonMarty

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A small update with some more major implications. When we started our Physical Stat rework some months ago, there was going to be a time when we needed to tackle the actual point intake. The point intake has been troublesome, especially Athletic Training which ended up as a point padder. The problem became worse when Athletics actually rewarded players in the CRP system disproportionately to the point where someone in high Athletic Training and no combat skills could beat someone with no Athletic but high combat skill merely on virtue of the wonky math. A new system has been put in place:
  • https://wiki.massivecraft.com/Proficiency#Physical_Stat has a new table in place that should hopefully be easier to read and understand. I also corrected some grammar which made the calculations more confusing than they should have been.
  • Athletic Training now gives x0.5 instead of x2.0
  • Puretek Combat now gives x0.0 instead of x1.0
  • Bodycare now gives x0.0 instead of x0.5
  • Unarmed Combat now gives x1.0 instead of x2.0
  • The aim with these changes is to reward less wrestling/athletic focus and make it so these numbers play well with the recommended combat rolling system. Speaking of which:
The rolling system suffered from "over complication". Frankly, it was originally based off a really simple calculation that I just tacked Athletic and Shielding onto towards the ends because I wanted to try something new. This obviously caused a lot of issues, since some defensive rolls became absurd. The new revised CRP system (that is recommended, not enforced) offers a cleaner approach that is closer to how I used to do it myself:
  • Attack and Defense rolls are now the exact same number and derived from the same calculation.
  • Start at a base of 10 (/dice 10)
  • Physical Stat divided by 15 is your first bonus, this number is rounded to the nearest full number.
  • Primary Combat Skill (the one used in CRP) divided by 5 is your second bonus.
  • And that's it. These 3 put together produce your /dice <number> used for the CRP rolls.
  • The whole system still follows the exact same rules. however!
Shielding and Athletics should not be completely ignored. I didn't want to fully nerf them into the ground of uselessness, so, they actually have a mechanical use as opposed to a rolling mechanic:
  • If a character has at least 5 points in shielding and is wearing a shield, they can force a re-roll on a lost defensive roll for each 5 points invested up to a maximum of 20 (so 4 times) per CRP session. This does not make them win the roll, it just forces a re-roll.
  • If a character has at least 10 points in Athletics and is not rooted or trapped, they can force a re-roll on a lost defensive roll for each 10 points invested up to a maximum of 20 (so 2 times) per CRP session. This does not make them win the roll, it just forces a re-roll.
  • These two only work in their mechanical uses when the players involved agreed to use the recommended CRP rolling system.
Help my App's Physical Stat is now wrong!
Don't panic. Unlike last time (where we auto-rejected all apps) we're not forcing this update on everyone immediately. These changes may not affect everyone (since not everyone has Athletic Proficiency that suddenly went from x2 to x0.5 in Physical Stat). As a result of the changes, we do not expect players to update their apps, and this is in fact not mandatory. However:
  • Moving forward, all future apps will be reviewed based on the new calculations.
  • Moving forward, any apps submitted for re-review for any reason will see new calculations.
  • Moving forward, if a player wants to submit for a re-review with new calculations, they can.
  • Moving forward, if any player wants to do the recommended CRP rolls, it is highly recommended they ensure that the people they are rolling with have an up to date Character app. As such, if you plan to use the recommended CRP rolling system, update your character apps!
  • If you are only changing the calculations of Physical Stat downwards to accomodate the new calculations without changing the actual Proficiencies, you do not need to ask for a re-review, just ask someone to approve tag it.
  • If you are changing both the calculations and your Proficiencies, but the total Proficiency changes do not exceed 10 points being swapped, you do not need to ask for a re-review, just ask someone to approve tag it.
  • If you are fundamentally changing the Proficiency points beyond 10 and the calculations, a re-review will be mandatory, and you should ask Lore Staff for a re-review.
 
Addendum:

I split up Eastern Martial Skill and Eastern Unarmed Skill. We're of the opinion that single Proficiencies shouldn't "act like two in one". So they are propertly split now.
 
What about the physical stat? I often depended on Athletics to max out my stat limit...why cut them it in half? Over half ..it just kinda bothers me.
 
And so ends the reign of athletics and unarmed combat minmaxers!
 
midnight_moon123 said:
What about the physical stat? I often depended on Athletics to max out my stat limit...why cut them it in half? Over half ..it just kinda bothers me.
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It was mainly because someone with only Athletic points invested and nothing else could feasibly have better rolls for both offense and defense than someone with 10 shielding and 10 blunt combat skill. A trained knight could have his ass beat by a gymnast with no skills in combat purely because of the body stat it provided and ability to dodge on a defensive roll.
 
TheBearistotle said:
It was mainly because someone with only Athletic points invested and nothing else could feasibly have better rolls for both offense and defense than someone with 10 shielding and 10 blunt combat skill. A trained knight could have his ass beat by a gymnast with no skills in combat purely because of the body stat it provided and ability to dodge on a defensive roll.
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Seems odd that they'd cut it in half. At the very least, add it onto a normal 1 point for each 1 point in athletics. Like, seems kind of dumb now that someone who is suppose to be athletic and acrobatic now pretty much become useless. What is now the point of having Athletics as a point system when it really means nothing now?
 
MrFluff1 said:
Seems odd that they'd cut it in half. At the very least, add it onto a normal 1 point for each 1 point in athletics. Like, seems kind of dumb now that someone who is suppose to be athletic and acrobatic now pretty much become useless. What is now the point of having Athletics as a point system when it really means nothing now?
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Every single Ability dodge mechanic and CRP roll dodge mechanic.
 
MrFluff1 said:
Seems odd that they'd cut it in half. At the very least, add it onto a normal 1 point for each 1 point in athletics. Like, seems kind of dumb now that someone who is suppose to be athletic and acrobatic now pretty much become useless. What is now the point of having Athletics as a point system when it really means nothing now?
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I don't think it makes it useless at all, the fact that you can RE-ROLL a defense roll is a massive advantage. Addressing the past, you could feasibly use any weapon with the suggested combat rolling system as a gymnast and still theoretically have a higher chance of winning than someone who invested very logically into their points was a bit of some cheese. Also, more weapons and shielding are much more feasible than a beefcake with massive amounts of athletics or unarmed.
 
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TheBearistotle said:
I don't think it makes it useless at all, the fact that you can RE-ROLL a defense roll is a massive advantage. Addressing the past, you could feasibly use any weapon with the suggested combat rolling system as a gymnast and still theoretically have a higher chance of winning than someone who invested very logically into their points was a bit of some cheese. Also, more weapons and shielding are much more feasible than a beefcake with massive amounts of athletics or unarmed.
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Now Urls are going to have a VERY hard time being able to truly withstand anything, or be able to do damage.
 
MrFluff1 said:
Seems odd that they'd cut it in half. At the very least, add it onto a normal 1 point for each 1 point in athletics. Like, seems kind of dumb now that someone who is suppose to be athletic and acrobatic now pretty much become useless. What is now the point of having Athletics as a point system when it really means nothing now?
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they kinda are right though

athletics is useful for many things outside combat like acrobatics, balancing, running, tackling people, swimming

shielding is pretty much only used to cover from arrows and deflect blows

so obviously the 2nd should have more an impact on rolls and crp
 
MrFluff1 said:
Now Urls are going to have a VERY hard time being able to truly withstand anything, or be able to do damage.
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That's not quite true. To show exactly how Url are superior to others, usually by a factor of two or more, I will give an example point build one might have compared to someone who is almost identical.

Url, age 20
+10 Unarmed Combat
+10 Athletic Training
+5 Hunting Knowledge
+30 Bodystat
Maximum muscularity: 50, Strongman


Ailor, age 25
+15 Unarmed Combat
+10 Athletic Training
+5 Hunting Knowledge
Maximum muscularity: 25, Ripped

As you can see, the Url is, according to points, less capable than the Ailor and is younger. However, the build is twice as large, the Url can use their horns instead of their fists to gore people (and possibly pierce padding, which fists would normally do nothing to), the Url also has a stronger sense of smell for hunting, and Url legs mean that their acrobatic abilities are bolstered since they can jump higher and further across impossibly large gaps for the Ailor. They are, literally, more than twice as effective as someone who is supposedly better-trained than the Url. Claiming they are unable to withstand anything or are unable to do damage is blatantly disregarding every other buff they have.
 
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Magivore said:
That's not quite true. To show exactly how Url are superior to others, usually by a factor of two or more, I will give an example point build one might have compared to someone who is almost identical.

Url, age 20
+10 Unarmed Combat
+10 Athletic Training
+5 Hunting Knowledge
+30 Bodystat
Maximum muscularity: 50, Strongman


Ailor, age 25
+15 Unarmed Combat
+10 Athletic Training
+5 Hunting Knowledge
Maximum muscularity: 25, Ripped

As you can see, the Url is, according to points, less capable than the Ailor and is younger. However, the build is twice as large, the Url can use their horns instead of their fists to gore people (and possibly pierce padding, which fists would normally do nothing to), the Url also has a stronger sense of smell for hunting, and Url legs mean that their acrobatic abilities are bolstered since they can jump higher and further across impossibly large gaps for the Ailor. They are, literally, more than twice as effective as someone who is supposedly better-trained than the Url. Claiming they are unable to withstand anything or are unable to do damage is blatantly disregarding every other buff they have.
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I've never seen an Url use their horns too often. I can only see them using their kicks and fists. And besides, they always manage to get out of the way of the Url's attack they are big and slow.
 
MrFluff1 said:
I've never seen an Url use their horns too often. I can only see them using their kicks and fists.
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Then that's an Url not using the biggest aspect of their race that grants them power against even weapon-wielding opponents. The proficiency system and race buffs have given them way more than enough to survive 1 vs. 1 with minimal issue.
 
Magivore said:
Then that's an Url not using the biggest aspect of their race that grants them power against even weapon-wielding opponents. The proficiency system and race buffs have given them way more than enough to survive 1 vs. 1 with minimal issue.
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Even if they use their horns, it can be counted as a main as they can be a bit too powerful in quite a few situations. I also don't want people to start attacking the horns, as they take a long time to grow back.
 
MrFluff1 said:
Even if they use their horns, it can be counted as a main as they can be a bit too powerful in quite a few situations. I also don't want people to start attacking the horns, as they take a long time to grow back.
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They're as effective as a knife at best, with the added versatility of being more durable and pairing with unarmed combat. At this point, any 'nerfs' to the Url being depicted are self-inflicted.
 
Magivore said:
They're as effective as a knife at best, with the added versatility of being more durable and pairing with unarmed combat. At this point, any 'nerfs' to the Url being depicted are self-inflicted.
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What of Url kicks? Then can easily break bones and perhaps even dent or break armor. Their kicks can be too dangerous if they hit someone with no armor.
 
BadDreamer said:
Anyone with a high enough bodystat can break bones. The trick is to just not do that.
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It's not just high bodystat. It's also the physical stature of the race and if their race could physically break bones like a toothpick. Urls are normally seen as slow and dumb, pretty much like seeing an Orc.
 
So... you don't have to update your app if you don't want to use this CRP system? But what if you do end up in CRP, what system do you use if you (both) don't want to use the updated CRP system?
 

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