Archived Optional Wars- With Forced Surrender

[65jes89]

So, recently it has been suggested by @Traxex20 to re-add the old war declarations, but as an optional feature. The original suggestion can be found here: https://forums.massivecraft.com/thr...eclarations-but-as-an-optional-feature.34347/

In the PvP think-tank skype conversation, of which I am a part of, it was recently suggested that war decs might in fact be re-added, but with some tweaks, which we were asked to give ideas for. In the conversation, one of the big things people seemed to remember disliking about war decs was the fact that nobody surrendered. Like almost never. Wars were legitimately more likely to end due to the disbanding of the enemy faction than they were due to the surrendering of the faction. For this reason, I believe there should be some system of forcing a surrender out of the opposing faction. Of course this should be extremely difficult. Like, really, really difficult. Resulting from some conversation with other members of the think-tank (primarily [tag]mecharic[\tag]) I came up with the following idea: The ability for a faction participating in the war to "invade" the capitol city of the opposing faction. This would be a relatively large pvp event, revolving around a KOTH arena somewhere within the city. If the attacking force was able to cap the KOTH, they would win, forcing the surrender of the defending faction. If the defending force were to win, they would successfully defend their faction, ending the event, and achieving some kind of reward from the attacking faction, although not a forced surrender out of the opposing faction. This event would be relatively complex, however it would require little to no plug-in development of cayorion's side, as the event would only require the creation of a KOTH arena in the city.

Additionally, due to the great difficulty that would be require for the attacking faction to win (see below for suggested disadvantages), there would be a trophy which would actually have a use, unlike the trophies from previous war decs, which were pretty much purely aesthetic. I suggest the option of either a sharpness 6 unbreaking 3 axe/sword, or a piece of protection 5 unbreaking 3 armor. Just one enchant level higher wouldn't make too big of a difference in pvp to the point that it's overpowered, but it would be enough to provide a significant reward to the winner of a war. Additionally, to prevent a problem similar to massive armor, it the armor piece should only come on one piece of armor, ie only a helmet or chestplate is available to prevent someone from collecting a full set of protection 5.

Finally some more suggestions/rules/whatever with the forced surrender:

• In order to initiate a surrender event, the war must have been going on for 2+ weeks.
• In order to initiate a surrender event, there must be evidence, whether in the form of screenshots or a video, that there has been active raids going on between the two factions.
• The defending faction can call on allies to help defend them. Attacking faction can call on allies as well, but would be limited to a certain number of factions/players helping them.
• If the defending faction successfully defends, the attacking faction must wait x amount of time to attempt a forced surrender again.
• Pretty much everything should be skewed in favor of the defending faction, but not to the point where it's impossible for an attacking faction to win if they're significantly better.
• Surrender tribute after a forced surrender would have to be paid. If the defending faction cannot afford tribute, some other means, such as taxes, could be setup with the blessing of the staff.
• There's probably some loopholes/issues I'm missing. Please feel free to comment with any issues you see with this, or suggestions you have.

As always please don't flame, and remember that this idea isn't fully fleshed out. It's slightly skeletal intentionally so that it can be easily tweaked to be made better.

 

[_Erebos_]

I like the idea of this, though the sharpness 6 or protection 5 can be a little bit OP. Also, is the KOTH arena a stationary thing or an arena where staff have to set it up every war? @65jes89

 

[65jes89]

I like the idea of this, though the sharpness 6 or protection 5 can be a little bit OP. Also, is the KOTH arena a stationary thing or an arena where staff have to set it up every war? @65jes89

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Sharp 6 and prot 5 could be op, but it would likely be in such small amounts it wouldn't matter.

The KOTH arena would just be the 5x5 arena that is capped, and would be placed somewhere inside the city. It wouldn't be too difficult to setup the arena, though I'm not sure how hard it is to make it into an actual arena that can be capped. If I remember correctly, the KOTH plugin is just part of the massivequest plugin.

 

[Zacatero]

My thoughts:

-I think an aesthetic trophy is better. I mean it's a trophy. I mean isn't that what a trophy is? Also I don't like the idea of bigger PVP factions gaining an advantage over time with op weapons and armor since they win more wars than everybody else.

-I didn't like the forced surrender idea at first when I saw it in the think tank. But the way you explain it now, I actually like it. It's a good way to manage longer wars.

 

[EpicAidan1]

I'm wondering about the forced surrender because sometimes the attacking faction might have a lot of people on while the defending one as only a single person online that might not be very good, another thing is how would the defending faction win the KOTH?

 

[_Erebos_]

Sharp 6 and prot 5 could be op, but it would likely be in such small amounts it wouldn't matter.

The KOTH arena would just be the 5x5 arena that is capped, and would be placed somewhere inside the city. It wouldn't be too difficult to setup the arena, though I'm not sure how hard it is to make it into an actual arena that can be capped. If I remember correctly, the KOTH plugin is just part of the massivequest plugin.

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I think that weapons or armor that are not normal, shouldn't be added. If you have a faction with all sharpness 6 axes and protection 5 unbreaking 3 armor, against a normal faction with only sharpness 5 axes and protection 4, unbreaking 3 armor, the first faction will win. Maybe have unbreaking 4 armor or fire aspect axes.

 

[65jes89]

I'm wondering about the forced surrender because sometimes the attacking faction might have a lot of people on while the defending one as only a single person online that might not be very good, another thing is how would the defending faction win the KOTH?

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They'd win just like normal, they'd cap the KOTH as opposed to the attacking faction capping the KOTH. Additionally, there could be some sort of time limit for the attacking faction to cap or the defending faction would automatically win.

And yes, the attacking faction could have quite a few people on. However, there's quite a few solutions to this problem:

1. Have a limit to the number of attackers per faction. This could be a ration of defending fighters to attacking fighters, or just a hard cap.
2. Hire mercs. Sure, it might be slightly expensive, but it was actually a common practice in the past, and adds to the roleplay/politics element. A lot of pvpers are itching for a fight.
3. Just call some help from allies. For example, if SunKiss, Valyria, and Mag were attacking a faction, Raptum and Deldrimor would more than happily defend. Of course this could end up in all forced surrenders becoming proxy wars, so there should be some kind of limit to this. Not sure exactly what that would be, I'll think about it and get back to you.

 

[65jes89]

I think that weapons or armor that are not normal, shouldn't be added. If you have a faction with all sharpness 6 axes and protection 5 unbreaking 3 armor, against a normal faction with only sharpness 5 axes and protection 4, unbreaking 3 armor, the first faction will win. Maybe have unbreaking 4 armor or fire aspect axes.

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A faction with sharp 6 axes would be insanely hard to get, let alone keep. One axe per war win. Prot 5 would only be available on one piece, preventing a full set of protection 5 like massive armor implemented.

I would like to say that the idea for weapons/armor came from the standard HCF rewards for capping a KOTH. On many HCF servers, it is customary to have enchantments limited to Sharpness 2 Protection 2. However, it is possible to get, say a sharp 3 sword by capping a KOTH. Also, remember that on massive with all the damage modifiers and mcmmo, and extra 1.25 damage (what sharp 6 would do) would give a slight advantage to the sh6 user, but honestly would be no bigger of an advantage than certain traits builds give to players.

 

[Zacatero]

Another thing to support my previous statement of the trophies should be just trophies... Is that i, personally, would never use a "trophy" in battle. I would be scared to die and loose it forever.

 

[Mecharic]

I find the idea of forcing a faction to surrender to be against the very concept of Minecraft (a game where, at least theoretically, you can do anything you want). While I can understand how some people dislike factions that refuse to surrender I also feel that those factions have the inherent right to never surrender. For example, I never surrendered to Raptum during their attempts at getting raid money from me when I led Okyno way back in the day - and I wouldn't surrender to them now unless they could put on the pressure to the point of making the game unplayable.

The way I see it, if you don't like that a faction won't surrender, you can bugger off and raid some other poor souls.

If this is implemented I will boycott the entire War Declaration system and all of it's subsystems. Just sayin'.

 

[Zacatero]

I find the idea of forcing a faction to surrender to be against the very concept of Minecraft (a game where, at least theoretically, you can do anything you want). While I can understand how some people dislike factions that refuse to surrender I also feel that those factions have the inherent right to never surrender. For example, I never surrendered to Raptum during their attempts at getting raid money from me when I led Okyno way back in the day - and I wouldn't surrender to them now unless they could put on the pressure to the point of making the game unplayable.

The way I see it, if you don't like that a faction won't surrender, you can bugger off and raid some other poor souls.

If this is implemented I will boycott the entire War Declaration system and all of it's subsystems. Just sayin'.

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Yes I agree with this. But if the "forced surrender" is like a game situation where both parties agree that the winner of the "game" wins the war, I see no problem with that. Only if the defending faction agrees to the terms do I agree to this being implemented.

 

[_Erebos_]

A faction with sharp 6 axes would be insanely hard to get, let alone keep. One axe per war win. Prot 5 would only be available on one piece, preventing a full set of protection 5 like massive armor implemented.

I would like to say that the idea for weapons/armor came from the standard HCF rewards for capping a KOTH. On many HCF servers, it is customary to have enchantments limited to Sharpness 2 Protection 2. However, it is possible to get, say a sharp 3 sword by capping a KOTH. Also, remember that on massive with all the damage modifiers and mcmmo, and extra 1.25 damage (what sharp 6 would do) would give a slight advantage to the sh6 user, but honestly would be no bigger of an advantage than certain traits builds give to players.

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I think that it would still be an unfair advantage. If I knew that a group of pvpers have sharp 6 axes/swords, I would likely not pvp them. Also, you could eventually get a full set of protection 5 armor, which would be really OP. I think that the unnatural enchants on weapons/armor for winning a war would drive people away from pvp. It's already bad enough to face a guy with high level stats, don't make it even harder on them.

 

[65jes89]

I think that it would still be an unfair advantage. If I knew that a group of pvpers have sharp 6 axes/swords, I would likely not pvp them. Also, you could eventually get a full set of protection 5 armor, which would be really OP. I think that the unnatural enchants on weapons/armor for winning a war would drive people away from pvp. It's already bad enough to face a guy with high level stats, don't make it even harder on them.

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You wouldn't be able to get a full set of p5. It would only come on one item.

Sh6 wouldn't really make that much of a difference, and would be exceptionally rare. I sincerely doubt it would ever make enough of a difference. Either way, it could be easily tested on the massive test server (assuming that's still a thing).

 

[Jackmo_Jones]

As in the past I am completely against the idea of forced surrender under any terms it's just not realistic that is not how war works... actually it is how war works but to force someone to surrender you have to make life for them so bad the only option they have is to surrender. If you don't have the dedication to see a long war to it's end you don't deserve to be the victor. Even the longest of Massives wars are freakin tiny compared to a real world war. Those last years whereas most the wars I get into on this server last a day or a week at most.

I don't understand why people keep saying it's hard to get a surrender. If it's so hard how did my faction steamroll through 15 factions in just over a month? If your dedicated you will get that surrender or at the very least you will crumble the faction into non existence. Either way it's a win.

Also as far as Sharp 6 weapons not being an issue because it would be hard to get many well again I gotta use the example of my faction ripping through 15 factions in about a month. That's 15 pieces of OP gear in just a months time. Imagine if the fac was dedicated and pulled that every month they could have over 100 pieces in just a years time.

Now on the idea of KOTH events to decide a war. I think maybe if we tweaked the idea a bit and made it more an agreed upon competition between two facs like in the instance of 2 mega pvp facs like Magnanimus and Deldrimor which we all know neither side will ever just surrender yet they want the war to have a victor so they agree to a KOTH like event to decide the winner that I may be able to get behind. If that is what you meant to begin with well forget all I said before that is a pretty decent idea.

 

[Zacatero]

Just a quick question here xD...

Would fake enchantments be okay for these trophies. Like... Victory X. Or something like that that has no combat value?

 

[Mecharic]

Just a quick question here xD...

Would fake enchantments be okay for these trophies. Like... Victory X. Or something like that that has no combat value?

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To expand, a faction leader could have an item that gets upgraded each time their faction wins. It could have their faction name as the weapon name and the faction leader as the item lore and then Victory [Roman Numeral] where the roman numeral is increased by 1 for every victory the faction has under that ruler. That was both the faction and the ruler are recognized. It would still be a useless enchantment tho

 

[_Erebos_]

You wouldn't be able to get a full set of p5. It would only come on one item.

Sh6 wouldn't really make that much of a difference, and would be exceptionally rare. I sincerely doubt it would ever make enough of a difference. Either way, it could be easily tested on the massive test server (assuming that's still a thing).

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Couldn't a faction win a war 4 times to get a full set of p5 armor, though?

 

[Zacatero]

To expand, a faction leader could have an item that gets upgraded each time their faction wins. It could have their faction name as the weapon name and the faction leader as the item lore and then Victory [Roman Numeral] where the roman numeral is increased by 1 for every victory the faction has under that ruler. That was both the faction and the ruler are recognized. It would still be a useless enchantment tho

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Perhaps in regard to wars with the specific faction? Like as a tracker to see how many times I've gone to war and beaten Deldrimor (that weapon would probably stay at zero) but it's just an example xD

 

[65jes89]

Couldn't a faction win a war 4 times to get a full set of p5 armor, though?

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I'm talking about staff only putting prot 5 on a helmet or other piece. As in, they would only ever give out protection 5 helmets. Never any other piece with prot 5. That would keep them from getting full prot 5.

 

[Mecharic]

I'm talking about staff only putting prot 5 on a helmet or other piece. As in, they would only ever give out protection 5 helmets. Never any other piece with prot 5. That would keep them from getting full prot 5.

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I dunno, I wouldn't mind buying a set of prot 5 armor... Remember MassiveArmor? xD

 

[_Erebos_]

I'm talking about staff only putting prot 5 on a helmet or other piece. As in, they would only ever give out protection 5 helmets. Never any other piece with prot 5. That would keep them from getting full prot 5.

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Ah ok.