Archived Nerfing Vampires

[Yoloorange]

As most of you know vampires were added back to massive craft roughly a month and a half ago. After some tweaking spectec and the Pvp squires changed the Pvp mechanics to fix trait glitches and balance vampires. About a month later many great MassiveShop items were added, including the apple tree event. With the apple tree events many pvpers have a lot more apples and golden apples they can use to make Healthboost and resistance potions. I believe this causes a severe imbalance in Pvp in the favor of vampires. As of right now the pros of being a vampire along with Mcmmo potions greatly outweigh the cons. Originally vampires were described as "glass cannons", very squishy but with a high damage output, because of Mcmmo potions this is no longer the case. Vampires can put out a high damage output while taking a relatively low amount of damage.

Vampires with Resistance and Healthboost (Most Vampires)

• Take 5% less damage than a traits fighter without Healthboost
• Only have 2 hearts of health less than someone with healthboost2
• Almost have flywater speed with bloodlust and depth strider
• Deal 35%-50% more damage than a traits opponent (depending on whether they are using a resistant trait)
• Have the Speed5 and jump5 effect which allows them to easily chase opponents, easily get away from opponents, and easily strafe around opponents
• Take no fall damage

The Only Major Disadvantages Vampires Have Are

• Holy Water: A direct hit of holy water will only cause around 13 seconds of Debuff effects, although it is very hard to land a direct hit on someone with Speed5 and Jump5 and most holy waters only land for about 2 seconds
• Sunlight: Vampires can easily get away from a fight and teleport out before the sun hits (Thanks to Speed5 and Jump5), and easily avoid sunlight by not going out to fight until nighttime.

This has led to less diversity in PvP as the vast majority of players are vampires

Possible Ways To Fix This

• Revert all expert/resistant traits to 25%, thus vampires will only deal 25% more damage and take 10% more damage.
• Disable McMMO potions for vampires, thus they will be "glass cannons" and not be able to tank as many hits while dealing a high amount of damage
• Nerf Vampire's speed 5 ability to speed 3 so they are easier to hit and cannot run away as easily

You may be asking

Why doesn't Player X who is using traits use resistance against Player Y who is a vampire? While this will help, Player Y who is a vampire will still deal 15%-25% more damage and take 5% less damage, as well as having the advantages of Speed 5 and Jump 5

Tagging Some People I Want to share their opinions
@Joshy54100 @BenRekt @MagicalWetToast @Waminer @jquaile @lewistard @morrc5 @Traxex20 @FubeTheMangler @Busterminer12 @Drejer14 @moloon @Sevak @Shaneski101 @Alj23 @qgmk @Wannag @Jackmo_Jones

 

[BenRekt]

This and possibly nerf the speed 5 vampires have into speed 2/3, so that there can actually be builds to counter Vampires.

 

[Wannag]

It's all a matter of strategy.

• Vampires are basically not able to fight very well 50% of the time due to Sunlight.
• Speed 5 is a good tradeoff for the amazing perks that someone with traits has over someone with vampires, remember, Someone using vamp doesnt have harmimmune, or armorpenimmune or any of the resistance traits. They don't have healthboost2 either.
• "Almost have flywater speed" is a severe overstatement. Test it please, it'll easily be shown that someone with flywater easily is 2x if not more faster than the vampire.
• Mcmmo pots dont last forever, and that takes up space in their inventory. In theory, that means less healths to carry/
• Remember, Not everyone can play vampire well. It may seem really easy when some people do it, but its more difficult than you think it is.
• Disabling mcmmo pots for vampires means that they have only 10 hearts.Thats a literal 3-4 shot. If this is the case then I want to see vampires able to 3-4 shot someone with maxed out health before this exchange should ever be done, to preserve the "glass cannon" definition
• Holy Water disorients the vampire, even though it may not be for an extended period of time, in some cases about 5 seconds are all you really need, because vampires do take more damage, keep that in mind.
• On the topic of mcmmo pots, remember they dont last forever, like a trait does. Healthboost extended is 4 minutes and absorption2 splash is 33 seconds i believe. Resistance I is 1 minute. Traits of healthboost2 dont ever wear out, giving them a permanent 4 extra hearts, and the absorption2 trait keep coming back, unlike with vampires where you only have a limited number of absorption pots.

Trust me, do the right plays when fighting a vampire, and it wont seem so "op", it's quite easy to kill a vampire when you start to put some simple strategies into the equation.

Just to sum it all up :
-Vamps speed5 is a trade off for no healthboost2, absorption2, harmimmune or armorpenimmune
-Traits last permanently. Mcmmo pots dont.
-Vampires dont deal enough damage to have mcmmo pots removed. that will make them easily 3-4 shottable. If this is done, I want to see Vampires 3-4 shot people with traits to preserve the "glass cannon" name.
-Flywater is much faster, test it.

I personally don't think vampires need any nerfing of the things you listed here, and those ^ are my reasons why.

@BenRekt @Yoloorange

 

[Wannag]

This and possibly nerf the speed 5 vampires have into speed 2/3, so that there can actually be builds to counter Vampires.

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Speed 5 is the only MAJOR advantage that they have. Strafing is key with a vampire, trust me, straight lining as a vampire will get you killed fast, a certain level of 'skill' is needed to use the speed5 well. Speed2/3 would make it easy to kill these squishy vampires

 

[Gabauchi]

I would think that fighting vampires would really be a stalling game. Minecraft days are about 14 minutes long each I believe. I would assume that that means that night would only last for 7 minutes, plus, when vampires use bloodlust, it takes out a lot of hunger, and if you can survive long enough with both those combined, you have a much less intimidating opponent.

 

[BenRekt]

I would think that fighting vampires would really be a stalling game. Minecraft days are about 14 minutes long each I believe. I would assume that that means that night would only last for 7 minutes, plus, when vampires use bloodlust, it takes out a lot of hunger, and if you can survive long enough with both those combined, you have a much less intimidating opponent.

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Or... it becomes daytime and the vampires walk inside and wait for night again...

Vampires also regenerate hunger when they hit players and mobs so that's not a huge debuff either.

 

[Beetletoes]

It's kinda like the servers with no teleporting, but that have factions. If you are under attack, you just have to defend. Eventually, the enemy will run out of supplies.

 

[Togal]

Best thing to do is implement a title next to their name tag and call it twilight. Gud enuf nerf.

 

[Jackmo_Jones]

I'm on the fence about this. I hate fighting vampires because even if I get them close to death they just book it full speed away too fast for anyone to catch them. On the other hand I've tried using it myself and I just can't do it. I can't control my aim at that speed and I don't like relying so heavily on potions.

 

[Joshy54100]

Or... it becomes daytime and the vampires walk inside and wait for night again...

Vampires also regenerate hunger when they hit players and mobs so that's not a huge debuff either.

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Yeah. People make out their weakness to sunlight like it's something that the vampires can't easily avoid.

 

[krios41]

don't vampires stil have that weakness to wood?

 

[LordSylveon]

don't vampires stil have that weakness to wood?

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Yeah. Attacking people with doors is always funny to be honest.

 

[Spazzzzz]

I agree on the nerf of vamps sure they're squishy but when you're out numbered 80% of the time when fighting and there almost all vamps you're f***ed sure they have a weakness to sunlight but they never come out when its light outside people are smart enough to only come out at night and they know exactly when to go back inside also if they spend a little money they can have a eclipse happen to where its night for a full hour now with them having potions than speed5 jumps 5 and like a 8 heart crit with skullsplit they really do need to be nerfed. People with traits dont have a chance when vamps can just use the same thing they do by using it in potions. And with the wood as weapons it dosnt really work due to the fact the vamps usually wear prot iv unbrk 3 diamond armor since the wood only effects with direct damage not armor. and ive used bloodlust with depth strider in water and its pretty damn fast as i have killed people in the water as they use flywater.

 

[Wannag]

I agree on the nerf of vamps sure they're squishy but when you're out numbered 80% of the time when fighting and there almost all vamps you're f***ed sure they have a weakness to sunlight but they never come out when its light outside people are smart enough to only come out at night and they know exactly when to go back inside also if they spend a little money they can have a eclipse happen to where its night for a full hour now with them having potions than speed5 jumps 5 and like a 8 heart crit with skullsplit they really do need to be nerfed. People with traits dont have a chance when vamps can just use the same thing they do by using it in potions. And with the wood as weapons it dosnt really work due to the fact the vamps usually wear prot iv unbrk 3 diamond armor since the wood only effects with direct damage not armor. and ive used bloodlust with depth strider in water and its pretty damn fast as i have killed people in the water as they use flywater.

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Lemme address 2 points in this.
1) "I agree on the nerf of vamps sure they're squishy but when your outnumbered 80% of the time and they're almost all vamps -"
Spaz. Bud, I'm sorry that you were outnumbered? In all honesty though, that has nothing to do with the needing of a nerf for vampires, I assure you if you were outnumbered by traits people its going to end the same way, being outnumbered is being outnumbered.

2) "and ive used bloodlust with depth strider in water and its pretty damn fast as i have killed people in the water as they use flywater."
Spaz. I've tested it bloodlust with depth strider is quite fast, but, its not near as fast as someone using flywater. When you say you've killed people in the water while they had flywater and you had bloodlust + depth strider what kind of people are we talking? God armored premiums or random non-prems that you've raided that happen to have flywater on that try to swim around you and all you needed to do was land a hit on them? If they were god armored, pvpers and you killed them, congratulations but it doesn't mean that vampire needs nerfing. I've tested this, and Flywater is much, much faster than any vampire using bloodlust and depth strider.

 

[Jackmo_Jones]

what kind of people are we talking? God armored premiums or random non-prems that you've raided that happen to have flywater on that try to swim around you and all you needed to do was land a hit on them?

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Even using flywater it's almost impossible to kill another person in god gear who also has flywater. They have to screw up pretty bad for you to land more than one hit in the time it takes them to heal that one hit naturally. If anything Flywater needs a nerf.

 

[krios41]

something i didn't test so don't quote me on this
but i think that creative flight speed is faster then speed5.
and with flywater you basicly have creative flight in water.
all depht strider does is remove 'friction' when you swim, so you don't go faster in the water, but it's more of getting less slowed down.
at depth strider 3 you go as fast in the water as you do on land.

Increases underwater movement speed

• Every level reduces the amount water slows you by ⅓.
• Level 3 will make you swim as fast as you walk on land. (Any level beyond that will have no effect on speed.)
• Speed potions will affect your swimming the same way as your walking at level 3.
• Does not increase vertical speed.
• If editing is used to put it on other pieces of armor (such as a helmet) it works normally.
• Not currently in console versions

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and apart from that, if you can't beat a vampire in water? why even bother to go there?
i think vampires do not need a nerf.

 

[Alj23]

Qgmk and I faced off in the arena less than a few days ago, him being vampire and myself using traits, so traits versus vampire PVP is still very fresh in my mind.

One thing I noticed while fighting Q is that a good pvper that's also good at using vampire is a formidable opponent. Their speed 5 is always great for quick and efficient gap closing to reach a running enemy, or for outrunning someone when you need to.

With that being said, someone playing vampire that isn't very good at it, is well, not a formidable opponent.

My point is I guess, is what playing vampire comes with certain pros and cons. You give up all of the benefits of traits, for increased speed, and increased base jump and damage. You have to pay attention to when it is day time, but you become a formidable enemy during the night. You have to watch your health, as you don't have the passive protection that say AxeResistant or SwordResistant gives, but you do additional damage.

 

[Waminer]

It's all a matter of removing the strategy involved in PVP such as taking damage while retreating, needing to time your fights to repot and avoid being caught up to and killed without speed, and pretty much most strategic level decisions and instead replacing it will the ability to run away instead of making the tough and risky decisions that make PVP enjoyable for all parties.
@BenRekt @Yoloorange

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Vampires are basically not able to fight very well don't fight at all in the day limiting the amount of PVP that can be done on the server and at the same time meaning that they will not experience any disadvantage to Vampirism 50% of the time due to Sunlight.

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Fixed it.

"Almost have flywater speed" is a severe overstatement. Test it please, it'll easily be shown that someone with flywater easily is 2x if not more faster than the vampire.

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In the water Vampires are slower than flywater but according to minecraft wiki Speed 5 is actually faster [Do the calculation in your head] than creative flying. http://minecraft.gamepedia.com/Transportation?cookieSetup=true

Speed 5 is a good tradeoff for the amazing perks that someone with traits has over someone with vampires, remember, Someone using vamp doesnt have harmimmune, or armorpenimmune or any of the resistance traits. They don't have healthboost2 either.

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My only problem with Vampire is how OP it has become with the apple event. Today I bought 27 resistance 1 extended and 18 healthboost potions for 79 regals. This 20% reduction works to completely counteract the small 1/20 chance of armorpenstrike should it be activated. Which it likely will not be most of the time seeing how Traits have been fixed Armorpenstrike and Harmstrike only work 1/20 hits you land combined with the fact you can simply run away without the possibility of being hit and repot should you become affected.

Mcmmo pots dont last forever, and that takes up space in their inventory. In theory, that means less healths to carry

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In practice that does not happen because once again, you cannot catch a vampire. So even if this lack of health pots were not made up by the PVP advantages of speed 5, Jumpboost and resistance you can simply go away and get pots out of your backpack with your enemy unable to catch you.

Remember, Not everyone can play vampire well. It may seem really easy when some people do it, but its more difficult than you think it is.

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I'll just trust you on this one even though you have given no reason for this and have said "PVP is just going to go back to the way it was. You are a Vampire, or you don't PVP."

Disabling mcmmo pots for vampires means that they have only 10 hearts.Thats a literal 3-4 shot. If this is the case then I want to see vampires able to 3-4 shot someone with maxed out health before this exchange should ever be done, to preserve the "glass cannon" definition

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You logic is as follows. Someone moving twice the speed of their enemy and that can jump triple the height of a non-vampire will be hit as much someone with half their speed a third of their jump and no option of retreat. This is simply untrue and you will as a smart person and a PVPer will be able to realise that PVP is not done with people landing equal hits. And will Vampires this is further exasperated by the fact that even if you were low on health you can merely outrun your opponent.

Holy Water disorients the vampire, even though it may not be for an extended period of time, in some cases about 5 seconds are all you really need, because vampires do take more damage, keep that in mind.

Click to shrink...

If Holy Water made the vampire unable to move for that time perhaps the would not require a nerf, but if you are truly so scared by it I have put together a extensive and long guide on how to avoid the perils of holy water after decades of research and testing.
Hold "W" Key moving at 10.8 blocks a second
Continue this for 5 seconds
Congratulations you have done the impossible and not died to mild 5 second debuffs!

On the topic of mcmmo pots, remember they dont last forever, like a trait does. Healthboost extended is 4 minutes and absorption2 splash is 33 seconds i believe. Resistance I is 1 minute. Traits of healthboost2 dont ever wear out, giving them a permanent 4 extra hearts, and the absorption2 trait keep coming back, unlike with vampires where you only have a limited number of absorption pots.

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Remember that the absorption trait only comes back every 33 seconds so using pots, while slightly more expensive, is actually objectively better than the trait as you can regenerate it at any time. This means Vampires absorption 2 capabilities are not on par with someone with a 75 point trait but rather ridiculously superior. As well you have to remember that what you have said is not a argument in of itself. You did the fact you have to drink health boost every 4 minutes [May I suggest you drink them in one of the periods after you have used speed 5 to outrun your hopelessly slow opponent pursuit] without comparing it to the many far more significant advantages that Vampires receive.

Trust me, do the right plays when fighting a vampire, and it wont seem so "op", it's quite easy to kill a vampire when you start to put some simple strategies into the equation.

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Which is why nearly all Magnanimus members [Who you control with the zealotry of a abusive father ]including yourself are Vampires.

Love you Wannag. <3

 

[Wannag]

@Waminer
"In practice that does not happen because once again, you cannot catch a vampire. So even if this lack of health pots were not made up by the PVP advantages of speed 5, Jumpboost and resistance you can simply go away and get pots out of your backpack with your enemy unable to catch you."
waminer. If a vampire runs away he looses hunger, and he looses it fast.. you are required to hit people to gain hunger, so its either you turn and hit people, loosing pacifist or you don't hit people and you loose hunger and die.

"And will Vampires this is further exasperated by the fact that even if you were low on health you can merely outrun your opponent."
wam, you cant just 'run away' you loose hunger, so you are required to turn and hit them often.

"If Holy Water made the vampire unable to move for that time perhaps the would not require a nerf, but if you are truly so scared by it I have put together a extensive and long guide on how to avoid the perils of holy water after decades of research and testing.
Hold "W" Key moving at 10.8 blocks a second
Continue this for 5 seconds
Congratulations you have done the impossible and not died to mild 5 second debuffs!"
wam, yet again holy water slows you down, gives you nausea, blindness, and weakness. you cant see 2 blocks in front of you, and you're slowed a lot. So no its not as simple as "Running away for 5 seconds"

"Remember that the absorption trait only comes back every 33 seconds so using pots, while slightly more expensive, is actually objectively better than the trait as you can regenerate it at any time. This means Vampires absorption 2 capabilities are not on par with someone with a 75 point trait but rather ridiculously superior. As well you have to remember that what you have said is not a argument in of itself. You did the fact you have to drink health boost every 4 minutes [May I suggest you drink them in one of the periods after you have used speed 5 to outrun your hopelessly slow opponent pursuit] without comparing it to the many far more significant advantages that Vampires receive."
Waminer absorption pots in the inventory can run out, using absorption pots also gives you less room for other potions. Using the absorption2 trait on the other hand gives you more space for heals aswell as a constant 4 extra hearts every '33' seconds no matter what.
The absorption2 trait > Absorption2 pot


"My only problem with Vampire is how OP it has become with the apple event. Today I bought 27 resistance 1 extended and 18 healthboost potions for 79 regals. This 20% reduction works to completely counteract the small 1/20 chance of armorpenstrike should it be activated. Which it likely will not be most of the time seeing how Traits have been fixed Armorpenstrike and Harmstrike only work 1/20 hits you land combined with the fact you can simply run away without the possibility of being hit and repot should you become affected."
Waminer, no you didnt. Yoloorange did, I know you got the story from him. Thats aside the point though, "SMALL 1/20 CHANCE?" May sound like a big number waminer, but 20 hits is not a lot in PvP. Like I also stated earlier, must hit people to gain hunger so you cannot just run away.


Finally I'd like to finish this off with the fact that I was in TS with you while you typed this and spoke about it, and from what I remember you have NO FIRSTHAND KNOWLEDGE about the situation, everything you used here was from Yoloorange and benrekt. Even the example that you gave about the resistance potions was Yoloorange's story. I'm going to honestly say, how can you be arguing for something/against something that you don't have much, if any, firsthand knowledge about?

<3 you waminer

 

[krios41]

also, why discussion the uses of pots? it's not that if you have traits you can't use them.
that one vampire keeps givinh himself absorption2? you can do that yourself too.
that vampire has speed5 cause bloodlust, okay, you can't put a speed5 one yourself using a pot, but you can give yerself speed2 or speed1 extended to counter that a litle.
ever heard of splash potions? yea they are thing, like a slownes potion, or the hunger one. While the slownes pot on a vampire with speed5 might ot help that much he is slower after all and if you have speed2 you are 'almost' just as fast as him.
and a vampire in bloodlust has alway's hunger as said above, just splash those potions that reduces hunger on him and he can't even sprint or regeneate.
ALL the potions that a vampire can use, you can use them too. Am i right? i think i am.

 

[Jemo_]

Blah Blah Blah; Aka didn't read all except for the original posts and half of all the others
Vampires are weak
As you might know vampires are glass canons, I don't see how a vamp using mcmmo pots would get close to a guy being all traited up.
Also I have heard that most of the work done around balancing is from base with no heavy pots used and I can see why, if a traited guy would use health boost absorption and resistance, he has all the trait advantages + the pots. A traited group versus a vamp group will likely beat the vamps, if a vamp and a traited guy team up it's a different story.
You probably expierience that vamps are 'OP' because you don't have the glass canon vamp in your team. As a vamp myself I feel the damage that I get and I drop easily to 2 hearts than run away. Being a vamp is risky, so risky, and people keep screaming at me as I drop to 3 hearts though I know that I can just run away. But the amounts of pots a vamp has to use to come in terms of damage he takes is a lot, a vamp asks about 30% more pots than a traited guy (In a group fight) and the only way a vamp can kill a person witouth getting out of pots quickly is by running in dealing insane damage, running out and this requires a large amount of potting up, in fight absorption action and than after that running out.
In a 1v1 with a vamp against a traited guy, it is a different story. The vamp bassically attacks, runs, attacks, runs. He tries to make the enemy use all his pots so he can go in witouth any scare and just shred the dude.
This can be easily countered by a support/debuffer because if you blind/slow/weakness/poison a vamp it really can do insane disadvantagin. A vamp needs his speed to run; his strenght to deal damage; his vision to move around and his health to stay static and regen afterwards to not let the enemy escape. Take away one thing and it gives the vamp a large disadvantage.
A large other controverse is that vamp is easy for noobs to use to deal damage, it is not. Your accuracy in battle needs to be on point otherwise you don't deal enough damage and your running in and out of fight was a waste of pots.

Conclusion
Take away; strenght/Ability to regen/a way to view to field/His ability to run out/The damage he needs to do to keep the fight balanced/etc The vamp will be outmatched. ALSO HOLY WATER AFFECTS ALL OF THIS, IT IS THE BIGGEST P.I.T.A. EVER.
A vamp in a not teamed fight bassically can be easily countered, a vamp in a teamed fight is for everyone the same as you should have a vamp/glass canon in your team too.

 

[Siguy2424]

Or... it becomes daytime and the vampires walk inside and wait for night again...

Vampires also regenerate hunger when they hit players and mobs so that's not a huge debuff either.

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Vampires don't regen hunger when they hit things, only when they kill them.

 

[Jemo_]

Vampires don't regen hunger when they hit things, only when they kill them.

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No?

 

[Suzzie]

Vampires don't regen hunger when they hit things, only when they kill them.

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No, it's when they hit things as well.