Mending The Community Divide

[Boogjangels]

Before I go any further, I'm gonna say right now that this is going to be a controversial thread. I'm going to do my best to stay unbiased and stick close to the root of the issue, and I'd ask that anyone leaving a comment do the same.

So last night, I got a notification on the forums that someone had posted a new app in our faction recruitment thread. The guy turned out to be really neat, claiming that he used to do a lot of roleplaying and was really excited about getting into the "faction side" of the server. I'd heard that before so many times, "the faction side", but before we continue with that, let me give some more background on myself.

I've never been one for role play as many of you might know, but I absolutely adore lore. To me, there's no other creative medium that's quite as exciting as laying out and defining a completely new universe, with it's own history, geography, even physics. I enjoy building in the survival worlds, and sometimes I'll occasionally indulge in PvP, but the real reason I've stayed on this server for 3 years is for the incredible lore (and yes, at least from my perspective, the Massivecraft "Aloria universe" is one of the more detailed fantasy universes ever put into writing). Because I don't really enjoy roleplay, I tried to find other ways to be involved with Massive's story. The first obvious conclusion I came to was to build up my faction's lore to fit in seemlessly with the pre-existing lore, and when I first joined the server, this was an incredibly popular thing to do throughout the faction community. So why now are roleplay/lore factions practically extinct? Where has that interest gone? Perhaps it never left, it just took another form.

Over the few years I've been on here, I've noticed a series of minute changes made to the overarching cannon that have been relatively unimportant on their own, yet show a much broader trend when compared to one another. I started playing at the very end of what some people call Massive's "glory days", or "golden age", so I only caught a glimpse of how it once was. However, what I saw was one, seamless community, which did divide into several cliques, yet maintained one single identity. Never once (althought I'm sure it was probly said within certain circles) did I ever hear anyone refer to themselves as an "rper" or "survivalist"; it seemed like everyone had a stake within the faction world, and most factions had lore behind them. Hell, some groups (old Sylvan and Valorian for example) even roleplayed within their faction!

Now before you make a post below debunking everything in the prevailing paragraph, please read this. I am aware that the changes to move roleplay to Regalia and delegitimize roleplay in the survival worlds were not made in an attempt to sabatage the survival worlds, but rather to increase Marty's theory of "roleplay centralization", which I have to agree, works. With Regalia acting as a roleplay hub, chance interactions and crowded conditions are very common, which make for a very good roleplay climate. However, by gradually promoting Regalia as this roleplay hub and continuing to slowly push away the lore created in the survival worlds, many "in-between" players like myself were forced to pick a side. There was slowly becoming less and less leniency to roleplay in the survival worlds or bring faction lore into Regalia, so many players made the choice to become one or the other. For reasons that need to be debated in another thread, most of these people chose Regalia over Factions, and we were eventually left with the rift we have today.

The community has now been polarized with no middle room left in between. You can either roleplay, or PvP, but anything else has become completely irrelevant. I've seen countless arguments on the forums for how we can fix this, ranging from allowing PvP in Regalia to removing PvP entirely, but I'm here today to propose an idea that I don't beleive has been raised yet; What if we simply allow lore to have a place in the survival worlds again?

I can already hear the screaming and gnashing of teeth, oh god... Well here. I'm going to try and outline this plan as best I can.

When I say "allow lore to have a place within the survival communities", this is what I mean:

1. We could try a system in which no lore pertaining to the faction continents is written aside from a few descriptions of geography and ancient history, and factions are allowed to be considered petty kingdoms and/or citystates within the lore
2. Or, we could use a system where factions can apply to become part of the existing lore cannon, being permanently cemented into the server lore.
3. Or, going one step further, we could even combine both of these systems. Basically, no expansive lore would be written at first and factions who have not applied for lore compliancy would only be considered "light cannon". Then as factions started to apply, the wiki would gradually be filled up with those that are accepted.

Now let's, say we picked the third system that combines both the above systems. What would be the pros and cons?

Cons:

• Roleplay may become extremely decentralized, making "chance rp" (just running into strangers) incredibly rare. Under specific conditions, Regalia may even become a metaphorical ghost town.
• There are many factions who have absolutely no interest in the server lore, some don't even have an interest in the general time period of the server's lore. What do we do about them?
• This could create a bit of a jumbled mess, with elven factions living in Jorhildr, Dakkar living in Teled Methen, Quadiri Caliphates in Fendarfelle... etc.
• Factions are founded and disbanded everyday; how would we cope with such a tumultuous system? (proposed by @Beetletoes )

Pros:

• Builders and writers alike would have reason to participate in the faction worlds, the builders having a reason to build and the writers having something to write about
• Lore would be introduced to survivalists and PvPers in a much more tactile and physical way rather than through the wiki (Some people just have trouble reading an entire wiki page, so this could introduce them to the lore in a whole new way)
• Roleplayers (as sick as this sounds) make for easy PvP targets, leading to increased PvP. This in turn leads to roleplayers seeking out alliances with factions that can provide safety, and can even start those old faction rivalries we all remissness about
• We'll be one step closer to mending the divide that's sprouted up in between the members of our community. It won't solve all our problems, but I believe it's a step in the right direction.

So in the end, here's the TLR version:

Roleplay centralization and faction lore illegitimacy has created a massive (no pun intended) rift between the members of the Massivecraft community, and by gradually reversing both, perhaps that divide might heal.

But I want to know everyone else's thoughts on this; what do you guys think? Do you think this could work? Maybe you have a slightly different idea? Maybe I'm a giant buffoon who doesn't know what he's talking about? Whatever you have to say, I'd be more than happy to hear it down below. But like I said above, PLEASE keep the conversation cordial and on topic!

 

[Wumpatron]

My thoughts on this fall in line with the multiverse theory in a basic sense. Allow factions to have their own lore and stories. Leave roleplayers with the existing lore and stories. Two separate entities. Even just having faction names in the lore defeats the effort roleplayers take to have their family history placed in the lore. There is no equivalent exchange. The two have to remain separate. If factions wanted to be in the lore they would have to abide by the same system if not a very similar one in place for noble canonization. To sum it up there is no way to combine factions with the existing roleplay lore. I appreciate the attempts at trying to "bridge the community" which is a statement I don't care to hear, but this is not the way. Do you really want to know how to "bridge the community"? Allow people to stay in the areas they choose. People who want to play factions want to play factions. People who want to roleplay want to roleplay. It's fine if factions players want to roleplay and vise versa, but to combine the two in any sense effects the other side in a way that is able to be viewed as unfair. So that's my two cents. If factions want to have their own system of lore, fine, I am in full support. But keep it away from the lore roleplayers use.

 

[Boogjangels]

Two separate entities. Even just having faction names in the lore defeats the effort roleplayers take to have their family history placed in the lore.

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If factions were lore compliant by default, yes, that would be extremely unfair. However, I did advocate for compliancy applications. Isn't this the same system roleplay families use to become cannon?

 

[Wumpatron]

If factions were lore compliant by default, yes, that would be extremely unfair. However, I did advocate for compliancy applications. Isn't this the same system roleplay families use to become cannon?

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How familiar are you with the noble canonization system or the Coven canonization system? As long as everything is done the same way then yes, I would be fine with faction names being in lore. A staff team would be needed to process it and make sure everything checks out which is fine. Factions should get the same treatment for that. If factions are willing to put in the same effort and I mean the same, no corner cutting or skipping over parts, then I would be fine with their addition into the lore. They would just need to know that whatever actions they take IG from the past and in the future would never exist in the lore. So raids and faction wars wouldn't be chronicled and placed into the lore ever. It doesn't happen for roleplayers so it won't happen for faction lore. Even once the factions get approved to be placed in the lore they would be subject to every nuance of existing and future lore written. Demographics, climate, occupations, herb ology, everything would have to reflect with the lore. If a faction isn't familiar with the lore then the process would lead to nothing. They wouldn't be able to have their faction integrated into the lore. In the end all it would result in is a random city in Aloria. This is why noble canonization exists and works. It is meant to be used as a means of providing quality roleplaying experiences and progressing the server story. Now you can say, "Well wouldn't factions be able to do this too?" My answer to this is quite simple, not unless they roleplay. That is the only way to progress the story of the server is through the actions one takes IC. That's how noble canonization happens and Coven canonization works. It is a reward for community service and moving the lore of the server in a direction that effects not just yourself but those around you. I have been working for weeks towards Coven canonization. My last step to complete it is through creating a meaningful plotline in roleplay that effects more than just myself. That step alone is the most important part and the last barrier between me and canonization. So to sum this up, it is in fact not the same as noble canonization. In order for canonization to work you need to be able to put in the time creating a story. And a story is not so and so declares war on so and so and etc. There isn't any incentive for the lore. It's just basic pvp. Unless the lore is taken into account and playing in the roleplay world is done, then canonization for factions will not happen. A faction would have to be a roleplay faction part time. You can't just expect to be placed into the lore just by playing factions. The lore applies to roleplay, how you get into the lore is through roleplay. There is no meta loop hole to it. You reap what you sow. I appreciate what you want to do, I really do, but this is the response I will share for everyone of these threads saying put factions into lore. Factions cannot work in a system the same way towards canonization as roleplayers.

 

[Beetletoes]

I have absolutely no problem with factions in the lore, and would certainly love to see it happen, but as I've heard in the past, factions are not the most solid structure. They die and begin every day, even larger ones. What happens then, in the lore?

 

[Boogjangels]

I have absolutely no problem with factions in the lore, and would certainly love to see it happen, but as I've heard in the past, factions are not the most solid structure. They die and begin every day, even larger ones. What happens then, in the lore?

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An excellent point, this was the kind of stuff I was hoping for! Yes, I would agree this is a glaring issue and I'm considering putting it under the "cons" section in the original post.

As for an answer to your question, I'm not sure anyone has a solid answer. I suppose we could add time limits, possibly a year before a faction can apply for lore compliancy? Until then, perhaps it would just be best to view them as "semi-lore compliant", similar to how it was a few years ago.

Anyone else have any ideas on this issue?

 

[Wumpatron]

If you want factions in the lore you will need to consider my most recent comment. I understand it is a long read but it is the only feasible way to integrate factions with lore.

 

[Boogjangels]

So to sum this up, it is in fact not the same as noble canonization. In order for canonization to work you need to be able to put in the time creating a story. And a story is not so and so declares war on so and so and etc. There isn't any incentive for the lore. It's just basic pvp.

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I'm going to assume that your idea of a faction player is a dude who lives in a bunker and kills random noobs all day. Yes, these people do exist but they are not the norm; it turns out that many of us care about our factions just as much as your care about your roleplay family.

You can't just expect to be placed into the lore just by playing factions. The lore applies to roleplay, how you get into the lore is through roleplay. There is no meta loop hole to it. You reap what you sow.

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Then I must be the odd duck out. I love fictional lore, esspecially the lore of this server, and I do not roleplay. All I'm advocating for is a way to be part of the narrative without roleplaying, to be included. If I'm the only one with this opinion, then I'll shut my mouth right here and now, but I just can't believe I'm the only one who wants this.

 

[Alj23]

Interesting enough, the survival worlds of MassiveCraft have a vibrant and detailed rich "lore" or history, whatever term you prefer.

Something that sets the survival world history apart from what is accepted as RP lore, is that the stuff in the survival worlds actually happened. Skirmishes occurred. Disputes were had. Battle raged. Wars were fought. Empires rose and fell. Factions started from nothing and eventually withered to nothing. Influential players came and went. You get my jist.

There's actually a lot of material to be written on that would create a detailed and expansive lore structure, one that I would argue rivals RP lore. What RP lore has going for it is that things can be created as they please, whereas survival world lore actually happened. It can only be written about with a biased view, depending on who's recounting the history.

I understand the purpose of this thread is to suggest how to mend a gaping divide, and the idea being presented is to let mainly survival world players influence RP lore, which is a RPers main guiding source. I'd just like to state that players that have been around for a long time and have almost exclusively participated in the survival worlds for as long as they have played have a lot to be proud of look back at.

 

[Gabauchi]

All I'm advocating for is a way to be part of the narrative without roleplaying, to be included.

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see, i think the point here is that it's a bit silly to want to be able to influence roleplay without actually roleplaying

 

[Boogjangels]

I understand the purpose of this thread is to suggest how to mend a gaping divide, and the idea being presented is to let mainly survival world players influence RP lore, which is a RPers main guiding source.

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Whoa whoa whoa there, Alj, not quite what I'm advocating for, but you're on the right track. Survivalists would definitely have no/close to no influence on outside territories, they would only influence areas that exist within the survival maps. For example, New Ceardia and Fendarfelle foremost, and areas such as Teled and Ithania being much more strict due to the extensive pre-existing lore.

I'm not trying to place any group over another, definitely not my intention!

 

[Boogjangels]

see, i think the point here is that it's a bit silly to want to be able to influence roleplay without actually roleplaying

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So it makes a difference if something is lore compliant and actually there as opposed to lore compliant and just an idea someone had?

 

[Alj23]

Survivalists would definitely have no/close to no influence on outside territories, they would only influence areas that exist within the survival maps.

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So they get to influence the survival world lore, which is in some form recognized in the way all current RP lore is recognized, but they can't influence lore outside of the survival worlds? Am I reading this right? (serious question, I don't want to misinterpret something.)

 

[Parz1vol]

Haven't read comments, only OP.

Honestly, sign me up. I won't PvP any time soon, but you can bet I'd love to write/cowrite and even design a character specifically for a small settlement/fortress.

+1 Support.

 

[Parz1vol]

see, i think the point here is that it's a bit silly to want to be able to influence roleplay without actually roleplaying

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Why? Elaborate?

 

[Wumpatron]

All I'm advocating for is a way to be part of the narrative without roleplaying

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First of all I never stated my views on factions players. I am aware of their devotion to their factions and the like. I was a factions player before coming to Massive. It is all fine to appreciate the lore of the server, but the lore is written for the sole purposes of roleplay. It isn't written to serve factions it is written to serve roleplayers. If you want to be a part of it you have to do the job that puts you in it. There is a reason noble canonization exists. Special permissions for roleplaying to be a part of schools that exist in the lore. To have everything you do in roleplay to be held up to the lore that is written. Notice the trend here? Roleplay is subject to the lore of the server. Factions are not. There is no other way of looking at it. The lore is written for the purposes of roleplay. Pages are taken out of the lore and rewritten just so that they can be used in roleplay or if they are used incorrectly in roleplay. The lore and roleplaying are a part of each other each effecting the other. That is the point I will continue to bring up time and again on this subject. There is no other way to look at it. Like I said, you can't skip steps, either do it just like everyone else or ignore it. Everyone needs to put in the same effort to be put in lore, no exceptions.

 

[Boogjangels]

Just a friendly reminder guys, let's please try to keep this calm and collected! We're doin great so far, I just really don't want this thread locked!

 

[MonMarty]

So it makes a difference if something is lore compliant and actually there as opposed to lore compliant and just an idea someone had?

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The main and really only reason why canonization diverged from one another, was because survivalists started enforcing a position of unequal value based on the work of their faction. For example: in role play, a noble has to work really hard to get a high titular position, while a survivalist could just walk up to the role players and be like "i'm a king of faction XYZ lmao eksdee bow down to me".

We then tried to create a system that provided some means of fair entry, it stranded because the survivalists who were being used as a test case, demanded too much. They again wanted to be kings and lords, we committed to Barons at the time (which is the same as Counts and Barons right now) but these conversations were just a battle of words ping ponging back and forth until I just gave up and killed the system.

The overarching problem is that the survivalists in this case aren't necessarily interested in being part of that community. They just want to lord over it while making no effort to contribute to it. You could argue that building a nice faction is effort worth rewarding, but it doesn't translate to fun or entertainment for other players like hosting events in the role play community does, which is usually a requirement for higher nobility. If the survivalists were rewarded with equal value relevance in lore, it would result in an extremely unfair balance in the core concept of the meritocracy.

The situation could have changed now from maybe 2 years ago, but I consider this unlikely based on the communication through certain channels that I'm aware of.

 

[GoodDreamer]

An excellent point, this was the kind of stuff I was hoping for! Yes, I would agree this is a glaring issue and I'm considering putting it under the "cons" section in the original post.

As for an answer to your question, I'm not sure anyone has a solid answer. I suppose we could add time limits, possibly a year before a faction can apply for lore compliancy? Until then, perhaps it would just be best to view them as "semi-lore compliant", similar to how it was a few years ago.

Anyone else have any ideas on this issue?

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Perhaps there would be a certain collection of pre-named cities or villages, and the Factions could apply for a city. That way, even if the faction dies, the city can live on after another faction takes up the mantel.

 

[Ryria]

I honestly don't find this to be a good idea. Roleplayers and nobility have to work very hard to become canonised or even relevant. It takes a lot of work, and I don't think a faction who dont even roleplay should be placed into lore. It just won't work, it won't be used in roleplay and it will be a page on the wiki nobody looks at. Having an application for factions to become canon in the lore will justt take up staff time and probably end up in most of the applications being rejected. It's hard to even have a writing prompt published on the wiki, only a few have been accepted. Also, I've noticed people keep making threads on the same topic. This is the second or third one now. I feel like the only factions that would even have a chance at being canonised would be roleplay ones.

 

[Boogjangels]

The main and really only reason why canonization diverged from one another, was because survivalists started enforcing a position of unequal value based on the work of their faction. For example: in role play, a noble has to work really hard to get a high titular position, while a survivalist could just walk up to the role players and be like "i'm a king of faction XYZ lmao eksdee bow down to me".

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I could not agree more, that's incredibly unfair. However, I'm not asking for the cannonization of roleplay characters who hail from the survival worlds, but the cannonization of factions themselves.

We then tried to create a system that provided some means of fair entry, it stranded because the survivalists who were being used as a test case, demanded too much. They again wanted to be kings and lords, we committed to Barons at the time (which is the same as Counts and Barons right now) but these conversations were just a battle of words ping ponging back and forth until I just gave up and killed the system.

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That's incredibly disheartening to hear, but I have no reason to doubt that this is true. Perhaps a "faction character title" could be no higher than Baron, Mayor, etc, or maybe no roleplay titles at all? Personally, I'd be fine with that.

The overarching problem is that the survivalists in this case aren't necessarily interested in being part of that community. They just want to lord over it while making no effort to contribute to it. You could argue that building a nice faction is effort worth rewarding, but it doesn't translate to fun or entertainment for other players like hosting events in the role play community does, which is usually a requirement for higher nobility. If the survivalists were rewarded with equal value relevance in lore, it would result in an extremely unfair balance in the core concept of the meritocracy.

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From what I understand, the meritocracy system exists to root out groups and individuals not willing to put in constant time and energy into maintaining relevance. I... guess this makes sense in Regalia (why would a family no one plays be rewarded), but I don't see why factions couldn't follow the same system. Events could be hosted, both rp and otherwise, plot advancement quotas could be fulfilled...

But like I've said before, I'm not asking for a character or family to stomp about Regalia with; if I wanted that, the tools are already available. I'm looking to have the town and community I've spent hundreds of hours writing about given the chance to become part of the the lore, a place in the wiki. That's all I'm asking.

 

[Boogjangels]

Perhaps there would be a certain collection of pre-named cities or villages, and the Factions could apply for a city. That way, even if the faction dies, the city can live on after another faction takes up the mantel.

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You might be onto something there.... I'm not sure how many people would be willing to take up a name they didn't create, but if they did, this seems pretty good!

 

[Wumpatron]

I'm looking to have the town and community I've spent hundreds of hours writing about given the chance to become part of the the lore, a place in the wiki. That's all I'm asking.

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People have devoted time and effort into writing for lore to have it rejected. This thread is coming down to I should be in the lore so my faction can be special.

the tools are already available

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The tools are not available. As stated a system was set up to attempt this but it failed. Even if you want it to be simply a name in the lore it is not worth the man hours to do something as mundane as that. To keep it simple. The lore dictates roleplay, the lore does not dictate factions.

 

[BenRekt]

The main and really only reason why canonization diverged from one another, was because survivalists started enforcing a position of unequal value based on the work of their faction. For example: in role play, a noble has to work really hard to get a high titular position, while a survivalist could just walk up to the role players and be like "i'm a king of faction XYZ lmao eksdee bow down to me".

We then tried to create a system that provided some means of fair entry, it stranded because the survivalists who were being used as a test case, demanded too much. They again wanted to be kings and lords, we committed to Barons at the time (which is the same as Counts and Barons right now) but these conversations were just a battle of words ping ponging back and forth until I just gave up and killed the system.

The overarching problem is that the survivalists in this case aren't necessarily interested in being part of that community. They just want to lord over it while making no effort to contribute to it. You could argue that building a nice faction is effort worth rewarding, but it doesn't translate to fun or entertainment for other players like hosting events in the role play community does, which is usually a requirement for higher nobility. If the survivalists were rewarded with equal value relevance in lore, it would result in an extremely unfair balance in the core concept of the meritocracy.

The situation could have changed now from maybe 2 years ago, but I consider this unlikely based on the communication through certain channels that I'm aware of.

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Maybe it's possible to make it so the only people who can have "lore-compliant" factions who are RP nobility so that RPers will have an option to contribute to "survival" lore and PvPers / survivalists will have to either join a noble's faction or work their ways up to becoming one themselves? I can't relate to this whole "invalidating nobility" thing since I've never actually tried RP, but that seems like the only logical way to reward the people who already contribute to the lore.

 

[BenRekt]

People have devoted time and effort into writing for lore to have it rejected. This thread is coming down to I should be in the lore so my faction can be special.

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People would still have to devote time and effort into writing up the lore for their faction, which can either be accepted or rejected. I think you are watering his idea down into someone pouting that they don't have the metaphorical spotlight on them.

 

[Boogjangels]

People have devoted time and effort into writing for lore to have it rejected. This thread is coming down to I should be in the lore so my faction can be special.

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Please don't be salty, I havn't lashed out at you, I'd ask you do the same for me. I'm asking for the chance, not the right.

 

[Ryria]

Maybe it's possible to make it so the only people who can have "lore-compliant" factions who are RP nobility so that RPers will have an option to contribute to "survival" lore and PvPers / survivalists will have to either join a noble's faction or work their ways up to becoming one themselves? I can't relate to this whole "invalidating nobility" thing since I've never actually tried RP, but that seems like the only logical way to reward the people who already contribute to the lore.

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This makes it very unlikely people can have a lore compliant faction if they aren't high nobility in regalia. I don't think the high nobles/nobility of roleplay would want to have a canon faction either, since they can just have their roleplay family canonised. Most role players are in regalia because they don't want to do survival.

 

[Boogjangels]

The tools are not available.

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You've taken this the wrong way. I was stating that if I wanted to have a lore compliant family
or character, the tools are there.

 

[Wumpatron]

Please don't be salty, I havn't lashed out at you, I'd ask you do the same for me. I'm asking for the chance, not the right.

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And I have not lashed out at you, nor are my intentions to spew salt. I am trying to understand your points and offer input. Here's what I want to see that you are lacking in this thread. If all you want is a chance then copy over the noble canonization format or the Coven canonization format and adjust it to fit factions. If you want an equal chance, show that you are willing to put in the same effort.

 

[Boogjangels]

And I have not lashed out at you, nor are my intentions to spew salt. I am trying to understand your points and offer input. Here's what I want to see that you are lacking in this thread. If all you want is a chance then copy over the noble canonization format or the Coven canonization format and adjust it to fit factions. If you want an equal chance, show that you are willing to put in the same effort.

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Do you really think if I applied for a lore compliant faction in the coven/family section, it would be accepted at this time? Yes, that is basically what I'm asking for, but the system is not there. That is why I am asking for it. Can we please move on?

 

[Ryria]

I'm not being salty here, I just want to point out how your idea might come across to other people. You're a non roleplayer/survivalist, trying to get your survivalist/non role playing faction onto a roleplay Wikipedia. Can you see how the role players might find this idea bad or pointless?

 

[Wumpatron]

Do you really think if I applied for a lore compliant faction in the coven/family section, it would be accepted at this time? Yes, that is basically what I'm asking for, but the system is not there. That is why I am asking for it. Can we please move on?

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So then make the system. All you're doing is restating what every other thread has. No one is going to listen unless you can provide a solution rather than arbitrary statements. Create proof that it is possible. The tools are there, the applications exist, just recreate it for factions to show it is possible. If you want to move on that is the next step. I am here to support you in that endeavor.

 

[MonMarty]

That's incredibly disheartening to hear, but I have no reason to doubt that this is true. Perhaps no "faction character title" could be higher than Baron, Mayor, etc, or maybe no roleplay titles at all? Personally, I'd be fine with that.

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That's sort of what the original system was. It could work like that, but like Ryria alluded to, 70% (pulling a number out of the air for the sake of drawing the argument) of the applications were rejected because the negotiations ended. This is a colossal waste of my time (or that of any other staff member that would help out).

the meritocracy system exists to root out groups and individuals not willing

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It doesn't work backwards, it works forwards in that it rewards people who help the community out. It doesn't punish, it just doesn't give privilege to those who are undeserving, from a community perspective.

Events could be hosted, both rp and otherwise, plot advancement quotas could be fulfilled...

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They could be. But I think the last major event hosted by a survival faction for the benefit of roleplayers was done by a faction called something Unaud or Umla I don't remember, point is, it was over 2 years ago. The tools for survivalists to host events is there, including Raid protection, but nobody makes use of it.

a place in the wiki. That's all I'm asking.

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What express purpose does this have for the people who use the Wiki? How does it benefit the role players who mainly use the Wiki for information? Who benefits besides the faction members/leaders who quite potentially don't role play?

 

[Boogjangels]

I'm not being salty here, I just want to point out how your idea might come across to other people. You're a non roleplayer/survivalist, trying to get your survivalist/non role playing faction onto a roleplay Wikipedia. Can you see how the role players might find this idea bad or pointless?

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That is a fair point. However, I still don't beleive that the server lore can only be appreciated by roleplayers, otherwise, what am I? As to whether the roleplayers might find this pointless, yeah, quite a few might. But more locations within the cannon could still expand roleplay oportunities, even if just a little.

And no, you're not being salty. You've genuinely been very cordial in every post.

 

[Boogjangels]

That's sort of what the original system was. It could work like that, but like Ryria alluded to, 70% (pulling a number out of the air for the sake of drawing the argument) of the applications were rejected because the negotiations ended. This is a colossal waste of my time (or that of any other staff member that would help out).


It doesn't work backwards, it works forwards in that it rewards people who help the community out. It doesn't punish, it just doesn't give privilege to those who are undeserving, from a community perspective.


They could be. But I think the last major event hosted by a survival faction for the benefit of roleplayers was done by a faction called something Unaud or Umla I don't remember, point is, it was over 2 years ago. The tools for survivalists to host events is there, including Raid protection, but nobody makes use of it.


What express purpose does this have for the people who use the Wiki? How does it benefit the role players who mainly use the Wiki for information? Who benefits besides the faction members/leaders who quite potentially don't role play?

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Alright, you got me on practically every point. It would seem I'm a bit of an outlier, as depressing as that is. Perhaps this isn't the right route to fix the issue, but you have to agree that the community is still not whole. I miss having something in common with my roleplay friends; even though we all play on the same server, we just have little to no reason to interact anymore. I think the gamestaff events help, but they just don't seem to be enough. Is there another way, or do you guys really just want to continue ignoring each other?

 

[MonMarty]

Alright, you got me on practically every point. It would seem I'm a bit of an outlier, as depressing as that is. Perhaps this isn't the right route to fix the issue, but you have to agree that the community is still not whole. I miss having something in common with my roleplay friends; even though we all play on the same server, we just have little to no reason to interact anymore. I think the gamestaff events help, but they just don't seem to be enough. Is there another way, or do you guys really just want to continue ignoring each other?

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Question sort of becomes where that issue stems from. Game staff host events for everyone. Role play Staff host events for everyone. Role play nobility host events for everyone. There have been a couple of PVP tournaments layered with Role play in the past as well. Even PVP'ers sometimes drive a role play narrative, think Viridian Crusade, or the undead hordes of spectec's faction.

It's not so much that everyone is ignoring everyone, it's rather probably just the case that as a role player, I only hear negativity about my work, my position, my friends, the people around me who aren't directly acquainted with me and ultimately my implementations from hardcore survivalists. For me personally, I get to have fun entertaining a group of people who are nice to my face, but trash talk me on a frequent basis behind my back. One way or another these opinions eventually route back to me, and then I'm left with the situation of "Okay so why should I spend effort to give XYZ a sense of satisfaction when they play good weather to my face, but absolutely despise my guts behind that facade".

A great start to mending relations would be a ceasing of this negativity cult that dominates vast swathes of populations that feel they are not getting what they think they deserve, and a reflective attitude to owe up to this behavior in a critical way. Dialogue cannot exist when you know the person talking to you is insincere, and motivation cannot form when you know you're not going to get a sense of satisfaction out of doing something for someone else.

This is also sort of the flux of the issue of threads like these, they often start really sincere and with good intentions, but between the lines and the various posts that follow when negativity is placed in the context, you can eventually boil it down to finger pointing, because tenacity for holding one's self accountable is hard to come by.

TL;DR

I think it's too easy to point fingers and not address some fundamental issues at home, which I could talk at length about, but frankly half of such examples are none of the business of some people on this thread, and would only result in more segregation if it turned into a public grievance contest.

 

[Boogjangels]

I think it's too easy to point fingers and not address some fundamental issues at home, which I could talk at length about, but frankly half of such examples are none of the business of some people on this thread, and would only result in more segregation if it turned into a public grievance contest.

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Well this wasn't meant to devolve into finger pointing, and I don't think it has yet. However, I do think everything that can be said has now been said. I just wanted to get a idea of how the rest of the community felt on this matter, because their opinion matters to me. I think it's safe to say that I have my answers now, and just like I said I would, I won't press this any further.

 

[MonMarty]

Well this wasn't meant to devolve into finger pointing, and I don't think it has yet. However, I do think everything that can be said has now been said. I just wanted to get a idea of how the rest of the community felt on this matter, because their opinion matters to me. I think it's safe to say that I have my answers now, and just like I said I would, I won't press this any further.

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I'm currently making breakfast, but I have a few spare hours before I need to hit the hay to talk over it a bit on Teamspeak if you like. I think while it's certainly relevant to take the opinions of the other posters in mind, when you actually position these numbers in comparison to the community as a whole, you've barely scratched the surface. I feel (without directly pointing at anyone here) that a lot of counter arguments have also been based in emotional responses instead of actual argumentative value. I've tried to internally play the devil's advocate, I'm not opposed to the concept of opening up canonizations to a degree, to re-do the test I did years ago if I am to entertain the idea that I just used the wrong test-cases myself.

That being said. I think I need to understand a certain level of things to come to a clearer conclusion here. Maybe I can address the matter in a much more direct manner as well when I am not constrained by the necessities of protocol over the Forums. Bring friends if you like, or don't, or don't come at all, it's an open invitation. Feel free to message me on my forum wall or in-game or just hop into my channel, it has no password.

 

[Seaaaaa]

That is a fair point. However, I still don't beleive that the server lore can only be appreciated by roleplayers, otherwise, what am I? As to whether the roleplayers might find this pointless, yeah, quite a few might. But more locations within the cannon could still expand roleplay oportunities, even if just a little.

And no, you're not being salty. You've genuinely been very cordial in every post.

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Spreading out the RP is bad, I can say this from experience from different communities which are smaller than Massivecraft.
Because of how small the community is, it's easier to find RP if it's bunched into one place, if you spread it out, it's difficult to find RP on your own without accidentally metagaming.

 

[Mecharic]

Ok, I've read most of the posts here and I think the biggest issue blocking this is the fact that both sides think that what the other side does "isn't enough" to earn respect. Building a faction is not easy. Take it from a guy who' built like 8 factions, they're a pain to build, a pain to maintain, a pain to expand. Creating a noble family is also very difficult. I've done that too. I've also created characters, so I know it's not an easy thing to do.

People need to stop acting as if Roleplay and Survival have different difficulty levels. Both are difficult, but in different ways.

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As for the actual topic, I don't think we should continue to try merging the two communities. I believe that the survival worlds should get their own lore based on events that actually happened in them, while the roleplay worlds can continue operating as they currently do. People in survival worlds could volunteer to help build a MassiveSurvival Wiki that holds records of events, factions, and towns built across the survival world histories. Both Survival & Roleplay would be cannon, but operating as Parallel Universes.

If we DID want to continue with this, we would need a fairly strict Application Process, where factions write up their own Lore within the existing Lore. Faction Kingdoms/Empires would likely be considered "Petty Kingdoms" in Lore, allowing faction leaders to maintain the title of "King" without being equal to the rulers of Roleplay nations and families. Furthermore, an in-lore explanation for the complete failure of such states would need to exist (I personally like something similar to the RWBYverse - namely, the world is so dangerous, entire cities can vanish overnight to the hostile creatures that dwell there) otherwise there would be no way to make this happen. Finally, factions would need to be at least 6 months old in-game in order to apply, as factions only a few weeks or months old may not last long enough to be worth the effort of writing lore.

It is possible, but I don't think it should be done.