Archived Massiveraid Proposal

Mafrorific · Jun 17, 2015

As mentioned in my thread on having a reason to raid, I'm losing people I've invited to MassiveCraft because they see no reason to raid. This thread is my proposal for a plugin, to which I am giving the working name MassiveRaid.

This proposal is meant to be a straw man, which can be thorough beaten, abused, or set fire to without me being offended in the slightest. I hope you'll give feedback, correct me where I might have strayed, and show your support of the overall concept (if indeed you do support it) by sharing it with like-minded people and by giving this post a Like.

Goal

Create a gameplay experience that:
1. Gives players a reason to raid, an in-game benefit they can receive from doing so to help offset the obvious risks.
2. Gives players a reason to fear being raided, thus encouraging mutual defense pacts, hiring protection, or surrendering when appropriate.
3. Constrains the damage that a raided faction receives to the point that raided factions won't be driven from the server.

Overview

The MassiveRaid plugin identifies when a player (raiding faction) enters a chunk claimed by a faction to which they are enemied (defending faction). If at least one member of the defending faction is online, a SetRaid event is triggered, which captures who is raiding whom along with the time the raid started and the number of defenders online. A broadcast is also sent (e.g. "Afrovia is raiding SteelOath at <chunk coordinates>!", configurable to be sent to just the involved factions, the involved factions and their allies, or the entire server). Lastly, the /dynmap show setting is applied to all members of the raiding faction (configurable), so they can be seen on dynmap.

The SetRaid event only occurs if no similar raid flag was previously set (i.e. if this is the start of the raid).

Every five (configurable) minutes the server checks the location of all online members of the raiding faction. If any of them remains in a chunk claimed by the defending faction, the raid flag remains set. Otherwise the raid flag is unset and the raid is over. The raiders have been driven off or have otherwise given up.

Twenty minutes (configurable) into the raid, the raiding faction receives RaidLoot (configurable, see below) from the defending faction. After RaidLoot is paid, the server checks if the defending faction still has members online and is above its MinBalance (configurable, see below). If no defending members are online, or if the defending faction's bank balance is below MinBalance, then the raid is over and the raid flag is unset. Otherwise, the raid flag is reset and every twenty minutes (configurable) the raiding faction again receives RaidLoot.

RaidLoot

This is the amount that the defending faction has transferred from its bank account into the raiding faction's bank account every time RaidLoot is collected. It is equal to 10r (configurable) for each online member of the defending faction at the time the raid began. During the time that a raid flag is set, the defending faction cannot withdraw money from its bank account.

MinBalance

To minimize the chance of factions being unduly harmed by raiding, e.g. reaching a zero balance and thus having all their chunks unclaimed, a raid cannot begin unless they have at least 3 (configurable) days of taxes in their account. Furthermore, RaidLoot will not remove money that would cause their account to fall below MinBalance.

Considerations

A defending faction that simply has all of its members log off will end up paying one instance of RaidLoot, at which point the raid is over.

A defending faction could engage allies or pay mercenary factions to help sweep the raiding faction from its claimed chunks.

A defending faction could counter-raid, thus forcing the raiding faction to divert resources to their own defenses in order to avoid paying their own RaidLoot.

A defending faction could surrender, choosing to pay a single lump sum to avoid ongoing payments of RaidLoot.

Factions could choose to retain less than 3 days of taxes in their faction bank to avoid being a raid target. However, doing so obviously entails the risk of failing to pay their taxes and having all chunks unclaimed. They might also become the subject of derision from other factions.

Factions with sprawling claims might need to build a gate network in order to be able to successfully defend themselves if they are the target of a multi-front attack. This seems both realistic and encourages the development of meaningful gate networks, while discouraging random and/or isolated claims.

Declaring a faction an enemy while in one of their claimed chunks may not trigger the SetRaid event until the current chunk is left. This is similar to how if you have /f map on, it doesn't update if you claim a chunk until the current chunk is left. This is a minor nuance and generally shouldn't really impact gameplay.

Other Considerations

A /f money baltop command, which returns the balances of the top factions (similar to how /baltop itself works with other economy plugins) would give factions that keep their bank balance high a way to "win" by being at the top of the list, strutting their stuff.

Conclusion

I am certain that if MassiveCraft implemented a plugin such as what is described above, it would attract and keep more players. I also believe it would increase the level of engagement of existing players, especially around forming active mutual defense pacts.

Kezlok · Jun 18, 2015

Caedit said:
Well with the way things are currently, if we were to "defend" it we'd just get slaughtered because the players who only do pvp and raiding are much more likely to have a higher MCMMO power level and have better optimized traits than people who roleplay, build, or do anything besides constant PVP and grinding... Again, I still can't shake the feeling that you prefer those who do hardcore PVP be favored over those who don't. If we defend we die over and over, if we get someone else to defend then we get to sit inside as people duke it out in our faction land, why go through the effort of hiding in houses and calling allies constantly because you guys get bored/frustrated fighting actual PVPers when we can hide in houses and bore you to death without wasting our allies time? Your argument seems to overall be only in favor of those who PVP, as Maforific already stated, adding this suggestion simultaneously with the permission to set a faction as pacifist would be a more fairly balanced decision, which I am more in favor of then adding this plugin idea by itself, one that would drain the banks of players, without considering who literally cannot fight back due to level/skill/hardware/connection/free time difference without the pacifist option.

Actual opinion, I think adding this plugin idea in conjunction with Pacifist factions could, possibly, work out. However I see some ways it could be abused, or make the state of PVP incentive worse. If all non PVP factions turn on pacifist, new pvp factions are going to be absolutely destroyed by the bigger factions (These bigger factions having nobody else to pick on now), and probably lead to one to three factions becoming dominant and constantly raging war with each other until they get bored and leave. Of course this is just speculation about the ramifications, I could be wrong and this could work fine, or end up somehow worse than my prediction.

NoMatter_ said:
Can I defend my faction with words? You already have read that my faction is role-play only. Does does not include PVP. The PVP your speaking of is NOT part of the faction. It couldn't be any more plain and simple. You're just ignoring statements nows.

If you can't defend yourself by PvP'ing there's ALWAYS other methods. Ever heard about traps? Yea those things actually manage to take down a couple of people once in a while. I've never seen people from RP factions try to defend themselves through redstone and I'm curious why it hasn't been done. Dig a 50 block deep hole and cover it with some sand and pistons, boom! You got yourself a deadly trap that easily could destroy a raider. Use yourself as bait and lure them straight into a pit trap with lava at the bottom etc.
You could maybe even earn yourself some god weapons by doing this if you make sure that their pacifist is off (in case they are premium).
Some people were smart enough to invent "portal traps" (before they became illegal) and trapped PvP'ers over and over again by using them. You could also just make higher walls.
Be creative and think out of the box instead of just complaining about that you can't do anything at all.

Suggestion for @Mafrorific 's concept:
Factions can only get money stolen from their faction bank when a specific amount of raiders and/or players from the defending faction are online. This would mean that factions with offline players wouldn't be able to get raided while avoiding that raiders split up into seperate factions to increase the amount of regals handed out during a raid. On a side note I completely love the idea of only being able to steal regals from chunks connected to the f home of a faction (as long as /f sethome isn't abused of course) which @JakkDhread came up with.

Mafrorific · Jun 18, 2015

krios41 said:
because i can't defend myself or my faction.

Thanks for your response.

I think the thing that surprises me most about these responses is that people playing on a Factions server, which is defined throughout the Internet as being a competitive warfare environment, say they either don't want to defend themselves (RPers) or simply can't (you).

I get not being good at PvP - I'm not good at it either. I even recently did a video making fun of myself called 5 Signs You Suck at PvP. All 5 apply to me.

I'm a builder and an organizer. To compensate for my weakness I
1. engage and recruit people who are good at PvP
2. alter the terrain to give myself the advantage
3. build traps if need be
4. seek strong allies
5. pay mercenary guilds

The concept of throwing my hands up and saying I have no options, that I'm just going to be a victim, and that the server has to protect me by making it mind-numbing or impossible for anyone to benefit from raiding me (and everyone else)...if that's an attitude that is embraced by this server, then I've clearly made a mistake inviting other Factions players here.

krios41 · Jun 18, 2015

Mafrorific said:
The concept of throwing my hands up and saying I have no options, that I'm just going to be a victim, and that the server has to protect me by making it mind-numbing or impossible for anyone to benefit from raiding me (and everyone else)...if that's an attitude that is embraced by this server, then I've clearly made a mistake inviting other Factions players here.

i do not feel like you understood what i said.
sure, pvpr's need their reward, i can't argue with that. but with this proposal i might aswel give all my money away.
In every case (i don't think you can argue with this sentence) I have to make sure that if my allies defend me they would earn more then raiding me.
My faction is depandable on those pvpr's, but if they suddenly decided that it was easier to get a reward with this way, why would they even defend me? if i was in their position, i would do exactly this. It earns me more/the same amount of money with less risk of losing stuf because they know i depend on them.
Now, you may say:
why even have a faction if you can't defend yourself, you'r in a survival world, you know you might get raided.
And i can't blame you if you would ask me that, because it's true. But i have to store my stuf somewhere right? or maybe i just like to build?

Caedit · Jun 18, 2015

Mafrorific said:
Thanks for your response.

I think the thing that surprises me most about these responses is that people playing on a Factions server, which is defined throughout the Internet as being a competitive warfare environment, say they either don't want to defend themselves (RPers) or simply can't (you).

I get not being good at PvP - I'm not good at it either. I even recently did a video making fun of myself called 5 Signs You Suck at PvP. All 5 apply to me.

I'm a builder and an organizer. To compensate for my weakness I
1. engage and recruit people who are good at PvP
2. alter the terrain to give myself the advantage
3. build traps if need be
4. seek strong allies
5. pay mercenary guilds

The concept of throwing my hands up and saying I have no options, that I'm just going to be a victim, and that the server has to protect me by making it mind-numbing or impossible for anyone to benefit from raiding me (and everyone else)...if that's an attitude that is embraced by this server, then I've clearly made a mistake inviting other Factions players here.

1. Anybody who is "good" at PVP already has a faction, because you can't get good at PVP without having MCMMO grinding.
2. Height advantage doesn't exist in minecraft pvp, we could make our cities inverted pyramids so the enemies are always higher up but that makes no sense outside a PVP context, who would want to do anything with a town that is literally all steps?
3. Most people can avoid minecraft traps extremely easily, due to enderpearls, the last time they actually worked was with invisible portals, which raiders whined and complained about being OP because they couldn't smash their MCMMO level into it to defeat it. I could rant on and on about this kind of thing but i'll leave it here.
4. Yes because the inclusion of this plugin TOTALLY won't encourage any allies to turn on us for free money. /sarcasam
5. Why the hell would we pay mercenary guilds, to stop people from taking money. We lose money either way, the only difference is you get to enjoy fighting somebody.

How about this for an idea, that doesn't require ANY plugins. Go fight PVP factions, and leave people who don't want to fight alone! You get to fight people of equal skill and have fun NOT sitting outside a door bored, and everyone else who doesn't like to PVP can do what they do without sitting inside a house bored. Isn't that a novel idea?

Caedit · Jun 18, 2015

Made_By said:
It annoys me very much when people declare their own factions as roleplay, pacifists. Honestly, if we look back to the roots of this server this type of thing was never around, people just got on and accepted the fact that some time down the road you'll run into a stranger that will most likely try and kill you. This is a factions server. A server where factions are supposed to compete against each other, strive for dominance whether it is through brute pvp force or other strategies like builds and such. @NoMatter_ you seem to have some nicely thought about plans for your faction but sooner or later you will unfortunately face the fact that those plans do not fit in this server.

Factions build cities to protect their people, what you're suggesting is building a city, but be pacifist and that city will protect you from no one. It's like getting a brand new shiny car but never driving it. Pvp is dying and you prove it by what you are saying yourself.
As Alj said, there seems to be a very high demand to become what is essentially a pvper. I myself have tried but yes the usual excuses applied end I ended up losing time and motivation to be involved in any aggressive form of pvp. Heck I'll still fight if someone walks up to my walls.

End of my poorly constructed slight rant, I think this idea is good, may need some work but let's hope it can return some fear of factions on this server. We need the days back where if you walked out your gates you dare not go with any valuable items.

"Your plans do not fit in this server" Last I checked this was also a RP server, maybe your plans don't fit on this server. Maybe you're in the minority when it comes to the thought that "everyone should be afraid when they leave their gates". How about you find an anarchy server for your plans? Hm? Or perhaps you can deal with the fact that the survival worlds have more uses than faction raiding.

Saying (among other things you've said), that faction servers are only meant to be a place where people ONLY exert dominance over each other is flawed in of itself, since the plugin was made to give people the option to make their factions peaceful. Not to mention, this isn't a "faction's server", it's also a RP server, a quest server, a minigame server, survival server. You can't just act like everyone else's opinion is invalidated because one aspect of the server is there. Look at my signature for a moment, and consider for a moment.

Mafrorific · Jun 18, 2015

So, responses to this thread appear to have gotten repetitive, which typically means an issue has been sussed out as much as it is going to by those interested in having their opinion heard.

The summary of what I've heard is that players don't want this plugin because they don't want to raid or be raided. That gameplay experience is out of sync with what "factions" has come to mean on every other server running the Factions plugin that I've visited (dozens). I realize the Factions plugin originated on MassiveCraft, but the factions "game" has come to mean something very different than roleplay with optional PvP.

I will no longer invite people looking for a Factions experience here, and instead direct those looking for a roleplaying experience here.

Mods, feel free to lock this thread, lest it cause unwanted conflict.

CanteringCodfish · Jun 18, 2015

NoMatter_ said:
I honestly wish PVPers were more focused on raiding other PVP factions.

I honestly think this is the problem. I hear a lot of "nobody pvp's when I raid them anymore, they just hide inside". However, if you raided a pvp centered faction, you would probably be met with a handful of pvpers armed to the teeth, ready for battle. So, if you want to fight, why not simply fight the fighters?

thor5648 · Jun 18, 2015

There are not enough pvp factions on the server to just fight other pvpers, we get bored of fighting the same 5-10 people constantly. Massive is, or used to be I suppose, a survival server at heart. Eventually pvpers get tired of fighting the same people over and over and then leave the server, what we are left with is a group of 30-50 hardcore pvpers with nothing to do, which is pretty much the current state of the server. Eventually they will get bored, leave the server, and what is left is an all roleplay server, that might as well have pvp disabled. If the server were to take 1-3 months and fix what the WHOLE pvp community thinks should happen, then maybe just maybe more pvpers would be drawn to the server, which would result in many hardcore pvp factions instead of just two to three, and the end result would be roleplayers being left alone to their business, due to the increase in pvpers.

@Roleplayers

Caedit · Jun 18, 2015

thor5648 said:
There are not enough pvp factions on the server to just fight other pvpers, we get bored of fighting the same 5-10 people constantly. Massive is, or used to be I suppose, a survival server at heart. Eventually pvpers get tired of fighting the same people over and over and then leave the server, what we are left with is a group of 30-50 hardcore pvpers with nothing to do, which is pretty much the current state of the server. Eventually they will get bored, leave the server, and what is left is an all roleplay server, that might as well have pvp disabled. If the server were to take 1-3 months and fix what the WHOLE pvp community thinks should happen, then maybe just maybe more pvpers would be drawn to the server, which would result in many hardcore pvp factions instead of just two to three, and the end result would be roleplayers being left alone to their business, due to the increase in pvpers.

@Roleplayers

If people can come to a conclusion about how to get PVPers to leave those who desire not to pvp alone i'll stand by it. I honestly think it would be perfect if we found a way to make RPers have their own thing so pvper's A. don't make the lives of non-pvpers more difficult by raiding them, and B. get to fight somebody they actually have interest in fighting, which would give them more rewards than the people hiding in their houses. Pvper's get to fight people who fight back, which encourages new pvpers to stick around since the people are fighting back, dying, giving rewards, and etc. While RPers and builders can enjoy these lore filled worlds and possibly have Role-Play and building feats extend outside regalia and it's related areas.

Of course, there is no real way to differentiate the two groups fairly, since if RPers get pacifist, PVPers and the such could abuse it massively, and i'm sure some people who can't fight pvp groups will find a way to drag RP/build/non-pvp factions into a war....

BenRekt · Jun 18, 2015

Caedit said:
If people can come to a conclusion about how to get PVPers to leave those who desire not to pvp alone i'll stand by it. I honestly think it would be perfect if we found a way to make RPers have their own thing so pvper's A. don't make the lives of non-pvpers more difficult by raiding them, and B. get to fight somebody they actually have interest in fighting, which would give them more rewards than the people hiding in their houses. Pvper's get to fight people who fight back, which encourages new pvpers to stick around since the people are fighting back, dying, giving rewards, and etc. While RPers and builders can enjoy these lore filled worlds and possibly have Role-Play and building feats extend outside regalia and it's related areas.

Of course, there is no real way to differentiate the two groups fairly, since if RPers get pacifist, PVPers and the such could abuse it massively, and i'm sure some people who can't fight pvp groups will find a way to drag RP/build/non-pvp factions into a war....

Staff have literally said about 20 times over several different posts that pacifist factions will never be added.

Caedit · Jun 18, 2015

BenRekt said:
Staff have literally said about 20 times over several different posts that pacifist factions will never be added.

and i've said over twenty times, just because we RP doesn't mean people can disregard our opinions. People keep doing it anyway (as people in thread so delightfully do) so why can't we keep suggesting things if your going to ignore what we have to say when suggesting things? Not to mention pacifist had nothing to do with the main point of my post, so did you bring it up because you didn't read my post or because you have nothing to reasonably say against it?

thor5648 · Jun 18, 2015

Caedit said:
and i've said over twenty times, just because we RP doesn't mean people can disregard our opinions. People keep doing it anyway (as people in thread so delightfully do) so why can't we keep suggesting things if your going to ignore what we have to say when suggesting things? Not to mention pacifist had nothing to do with the main point of my post, so did you bring it up because you didn't read my post or because you have nothing to reasonably say against it?

There's this new thing called a creative server where there is no pvp, you should check them out.

BenRekt · Jun 18, 2015

Caedit said:
and i've said over twenty times, just because we RP doesn't mean people can disregard our opinions. People keep doing it anyway (as people in thread so delightfully do) so why can't we keep suggesting things if your going to ignore what we have to say when suggesting things? Not to mention pacifist had nothing to do with the main point of my post, so did you bring it up because you didn't read my post or because you have nothing to reasonably say against it?

I have made all of my points. You are basically saying because you can't compete with others, you shouldn't have to compete at all. Not much of an argument you have there, but you can keep going on about how I have nothing to argue.

Made_By · Jun 18, 2015

Caedit said:
"Your plans do not fit in this server" Last I checked this was also a RP server, maybe your plans don't fit on this server. Maybe you're in the minority when it comes to the thought that "everyone should be afraid when they leave their gates". How about you find an anarchy server for your plans? Hm? Or perhaps you can deal with the fact that the survival worlds have more uses than faction raiding.

Saying (among other things you've said), that faction servers are only meant to be a place where people ONLY exert dominance over each other is flawed in of itself, since the plugin was made to give people the option to make their factions peaceful. Not to mention, this isn't a "faction's server", it's also a RP server, a quest server, a minigame server, survival server. You can't just act like everyone else's opinion is invalidated because one aspect of the server is there. Look at my signature for a moment, and consider for a moment.

I think the point is if you plan to make a faction in the survival world where you a prone to compete against other factions because it is a survival world then don't complain when you end up competing against other factions. Of course they have more use than raiding, I don't raid myself, in fact I sit behind a fairly well-built city that has taken almost 3 years to complete. I don't understand where this plug-in has given itself the option for us to be peaceful, if it has it isn't used on this server which is my point. Yes this isn't purely a factions server which is why when you don't want to compete in what is a competitive survival world you have options to go to regalia and such.

Caedit · Jun 18, 2015

All valid points. So here's my point. If you want us to deal with you guys who pvp, be prepared to wait outside doors bored and getting no rewards for raiding us. If we have no choice but to put up with your raids you have no choice but to put up with us sitting in houses while you get nothing. All's fair in a survival world and if I want to sit inside my house I have full rights to. So this plugin isn't needed.

Caedit · Jun 18, 2015

thor5648 said:
There's this new thing called a creative server where there is no pvp, you should check them out.

There is this new thing called a "anarchy" server, if you want rewards for raiding people you should check it out.

BenRekt · Jun 18, 2015

Caedit said:
All valid points. So here's my point. If you want us to deal with you guys who pvp, be prepared to wait outside doors bored and getting no rewards for raiding us. If we have no choice but to put up with your raids you have no choice but to put up with us sitting in houses while you get nothing. All's fair in a survival world and if I want to sit inside my house I have full rights to. So this plugin isn't needed.

Did you literally not read the subject at all? The whole point of this idea and post is to encourage people to defend themselves or have a consequence for not doing so.

You literally cannot come up with one valid argument.

NoMatter_ · Jun 18, 2015

Made_By said:
It annoys me very much when people declare their own factions as roleplay, pacifists. Honestly, if we look back to the roots of this server this type of thing was never around, people just got on and accepted the fact that some time down the road you'll run into a stranger that will most likely try and kill you. This is a factions server. A server where factions are supposed to compete against each other, strive for dominance whether it is through brute pvp force or other strategies like builds and such. @NoMatter_ you seem to have some nicely thought about plans for your faction but sooner or later you will unfortunately face the fact that those plans do not fit in this server.

Factions build cities to protect their people, what you're suggesting is building a city, but be pacifist and that city will protect you from no one. It's like getting a brand new shiny car but never driving it. Pvp is dying and you prove it by what you are saying yourself.
As Alj said, there seems to be a very high demand to become what is essentially a pvper. I myself have tried but yes the usual excuses applied end I ended up losing time and motivation to be involved in any aggressive form of pvp. Heck I'll still fight if someone walks up to my walls.

End of my poorly constructed slight rant, I think this idea is good, may need some work but let's hope it can return some fear of factions on this server. We need the days back where if you walked out your gates you dare not go with any valuable items.

Made_By, your opinion is sound enough, besides from the fact it hasn't evidently been proven.
RP factions have been around for a very long-time.
Vyrneth, Sylvan, Mithril, etc. They have existed, and just because this isn't what the server was like first off, doesn't make that any less of a reality. Like mentioned earlier, Fenderfell, Teled Methan, Ellador, etc, are all part of the role-play universe Aloria. If you going to simply state these worlds are for PVP only, than completely remove them from that.
You can't say it's a server where factions are suppose to compete against each other, because that's only one aspect of the game, and one persons opinion.

And I won't face facts that those plans don't fit the server, because I haven't been the first faction to make a fully functional RP server.
Please, before you start throwing things together like the survival worlds are only intended for PVP, have a look around the server and you will notice that's not true.
There's already a lot of staff and work being put into the PVP community, there needs to be a balance.

NoMatter_ · Jun 18, 2015

BenRekt said:
Did you literally not read the subject at all? The whole point of this idea and post is to encourage people to defend themselves or have a consequence for not doing so.

You literally cannot come up with one valid argument.

Ben, watch what your saying. It's fine enough to have a opinion are argue your point. Please don't turn it into a slanter contest because you disagree with someone elses. That's not what this is for.

NoMatter_ · Jun 18, 2015

GameFlame said:
If you can't defend yourself by PvP'ing there's ALWAYS other methods. Ever heard about traps? Yea those things actually manage to take down a couple of people once in a while. I've never seen people from RP factions try to defend themselves through redstone and I'm curious why it hasn't been done. Dig a 50 block deep hole and cover it with some sand and pistons, boom! You got yourself a deadly trap that easily could destroy a raider. Use yourself as bait and lure them straight into a pit trap with lava at the bottom etc.
You could maybe even earn yourself some god weapons by doing this if you make sure that their pacifist is off (in case they are premium).
Some people were smart enough to invent "portal traps" (before they became illegal) and trapped PvP'ers over and over again by using them. You could also just make higher walls.
Be creative and think out of the box instead of just complaining about that you can't do anything at all.

Suggestion for @Mafrorific 's concept:
Factions can only get money stolen from their faction bank when a specific amount of raiders and/or players from the defending faction are online. This would mean that factions with offline players wouldn't be able to get raided while avoiding that raiders split up into seperate factions to increase the amount of regals handed out during a raid. On a side note I completely love the idea of only being able to steal regals from chunks connected to the f home of a faction (as long as /f sethome isn't abused of course) which @JakkDhread came up with.

Once again, don't ignore my point. We are a completely role-play driven faction, not a cent of it is directed towards other means.
I shouldn't need to build traps or anything like that.
I'm much happier hiding in buildings like I am suppose to do if that's what needs to be done to avoid PVP.

Caedit · Jun 18, 2015

BenRekt said:
Did you literally not read the subject at all? The whole point of this idea and post is to encourage people to defend themselves or have a consequence for not doing so.

You literally cannot come up with one valid argument.

What is this a trolling contest now? This plugin suggests people get charged when they don't fight, unless people who CANNOT fight can opt out than I am against this entirely. Why should I give up my regals to you because you felt like raiding me today? How in the world is this fair to anyone who is below 2000 MCMMO power level? They either fight, die, and lose their inventory, or stay inside their faction until their faction bank is emptied out.

"Oh but you can do X"
Yea, remember that list of reasons why you cannot do "X" I made in a post a while back you all ignored? I'm just going to point to that again, tell you to stop the rating abuse, and stop being elitest and flaming. You literally cannot read because I have made MANY valid points you are IGNORING because you can't see past your own blind biases.

This thread has reached it's conclusion, the server, and the factions plugin is not there so you can raid people who can't fight back for profit, it's there for wars between people of equal skill for fun in PVP, which makes this plugin pointless and unnecessary. Seriously, when was the last time any of the PVPers here went to raid people for fun rather than expecting profit? We want to have fun without pvp, real PVPers want to have fun pvping, all this plugin idea does is encourage greedy jerks to raid people who can't PVP, for profit.

BenRekt · Jun 18, 2015

Caedit said:
What is this a trolling contest now? This plugin suggests people get charged when they don't fight, unless people who CANNOT fight can opt out than I am against this entirely. Why should I give up my regals to you because you felt like raiding me today? How in the world is this fair to anyone who is below 2000 MCMMO power level? They either fight, die, and lose their inventory, or stay inside their faction until their faction bank is emptied out.

"Oh but you can do X"
Yea, remember that list of reasons why you cannot do "X" I made in a post a while back you all ignored? I'm just going to point to that again, tell you to stop the rating abuse, and stop being elitest and flaming. You literally cannot read because I have made MANY valid points you are IGNORING because you can't see past your own blind biases.

This thread has reached it's conclusion, the server, and the factions plugin is not there so you can raid people who can't fight back for profit, it's there for wars between people of equal skill for fun in PVP, which makes this plugin pointless and unnecessary. Seriously, when was the last time any of the PVPers here went to raid people for fun rather than expecting profit? We want to have fun without pvp, real PVPers want to have fun pvping, all this plugin idea does is encourage greedy jerks to raid people who can't PVP, for profit.

The main idea of the plug-in, like I have already said and what the OP said is to encourage people to defend themselves. I'm already rich, I don't raid for money (But please go ahead and assume things like you have been doing for most of your comments thus far) so when people won't come out and fight, it isn't very fun. Your points are not valid, I think this is the 5th time you've made this "argument" about McMMO, which I have already responded to by saying it's not really a valid argument considering A. Nobody is stopping you from training McMMO and B. You again are basically saying because you cannot compete there should be no competition (Like I've repeated many times).

Also do not try and tell me to stop "flaming". I believe it was your first comment in which, without me provoking you any way, you basically called me a PvP-elitist who is looking for the destruction of all "helpless" RP factions. Also, it's probably not a good idea to tell someone to stop "flaming" and then call them illiterate in the following sentence.

Also, all these supposedly "valid" points, list them one by one so I can make sure I address each and every one.

krios41 · Jun 18, 2015

BenRekt said:
The main idea of the plug-in, like I have already said and what the OP said is to encourage people to defend themselves.

this would not encourage me to defend in any way.
losing stuf do you (read: people who can't pvp) anyway.
The raider stay's? faction loses money. you (again read as: people who can't pvp) try to fight? you die and lose your stuf and teh raider stil get money+ your loot.
Please tell me Ben, how would i ensure that my allies stay my allies and actually will come and defend me without having to promise them so much that they might aswel raid me?

Caedit · Jun 18, 2015

BenRekt said:
The main idea of the plug-in, like I have already said and what the OP said is to encourage people to defend themselves. I'm already rich, I don't raid for money (But please go ahead and assume things like you have been doing for most of your comments thus far) so when people won't come out and fight, it isn't very fun. Your points are not valid, I think this is the 5th time you've made this "argument" about McMMO, which I have already responded to by saying it's not really a valid argument considering A. Nobody is stopping you from training McMMO and B. You again are basically saying because you cannot compete there should be no competition (Like I've repeated many times).

Also do not try and tell me to stop "flaming". I believe it was your first comment in which, without me provoking you any way, you basically called me a PvP-elitist who is looking for the destruction of all "helpless" RP factions. Also, it's probably not a good idea to tell someone to stop "flaming" and then call them illiterate in the following sentence.

Also, all these supposedly "valid" points, list them one by one so I can make sure I address each and every one.

Step 1: Look back at my previous posts.
Step 2: Find my response to people claiming other ways to deal with people in your faction.
Step 3: Weep because you just proved in this post you haven't read my posts at all.

Honestly all I see is a bunch of people that for some reason aren't declaring war on actual PVP factions, so they expect PVP factions to come to them when they go to bully non-PVP factions. What's the difference between you declaring war with a PVP faction, and attacking a RP faction so they'll call a PVP faction to help them. There is absolutely no reason for you to care about this plugin if things work the way you say they work. Even if this plugin was implemented you honestly think people are going to suicidally walk outside so you can kill them? They're more likely to just disband their faction and stay in regalia, forgoing PVP on this server entirely. Honestly it's like you think everyone owes you a fight because you're bored.

Well it became flame the moment we continued a discussion after the thread owner said the thread was over, and unless you want the both of us to delete our posts (which I would prefer) we're both just as bad for it.

Edit:

krios41 said:
this would not encourage me to defend in any way.
losing stuf do you (read: people who can't pvp) anyway.
The raider stay's? faction loses money. you (again read as: people who can't pvp) try to fight? you die and lose your stuf and teh raider stil get money+ your loot.
Please tell me Ben, how would i ensure that my allies stay my allies and actually will come and defend me without having to promise them so much that they might aswel raid me?

This person (and this post) is basically making the point I want to convey, without getting biased or possibly disgruntled about it.

thor5648 · Jun 18, 2015

Caedit said:
If people can come to a conclusion about how to get PVPers to leave those who desire not to pvp alone i'll stand by it. I honestly think it would be perfect if we found a way to make RPers have their own thing so pvper's A. don't make the lives of non-pvpers more difficult by raiding them, and B. get to fight somebody they actually have interest in fighting, which would give them more rewards than the people hiding in their houses. Pvper's get to fight people who fight back, which encourages new pvpers to stick around since the people are fighting back, dying, giving rewards, and etc. While RPers and builders can enjoy these lore filled worlds and possibly have Role-Play and building feats extend outside regalia and it's related areas.

Of course, there is no real way to differentiate the two groups fairly, since if RPers get pacifist, PVPers and the such could abuse it massively, and i'm sure some people who can't fight pvp groups will find a way to drag RP/build/non-pvp factions into a war....

Go to regalia if you want to be left alone.

Caedit · Jun 18, 2015

thor5648 said:
Go to regalia if you want to be left alone.

Go to another server if you want to PVP new people.

See I can play this game to, how about we not?

Alj23 · Jun 18, 2015

Caedit said:
Even if this plugin was implemented you honestly think people are going to suicidally walk outside so you can kill them?

I would take a guess and say that the intention is that if the plugin was implemented where the detriment to the defending factions that refuse to fight was lose of regals, that you would be more inclined to surrender with a set tribute, rather than risk holding out and the amount of money the raiders gain eventually becomes more than what the tribute would have been. Or pay someone to defend you for less than what the tribute would be or what less than what the raiders would gain over an extended period of time.

Again, just a guess.

leversandpulleys · Jun 18, 2015

Mafrorific said:
So, responses to this thread appear to have gotten repetitive, which typically means an issue has been sussed out as much as it is going to by those interested in having their opinion heard.

The summary of what I've heard is that players don't want this plugin because they don't want to raid or be raided. That gameplay experience is out of sync with what "factions" has come to mean on every other server running the Factions plugin that I've visited (dozens). I realize the Factions plugin originated on MassiveCraft, but the factions "game" has come to mean something very different than roleplay with optional PvP.

I will no longer invite people looking for a Factions experience here, and instead direct those looking for a roleplaying experience here.

Mods, feel free to lock this thread, lest it cause unwanted conflict.

Locking thread as requested.

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